@sardines I guess I forgot to put this in - While males may be able to get by with little to no understanding of how the female body works, women and girls (girls, as in, minors that shouldn't be sexually active) don't get that luxury. They are FORCED to learn how to please a male body. As that ad so gracefully illustrates, I could be a lesbian and I'd understand somewhat how a male wants to be pleased sexually. Tell me where womens' sexuality is taught so publicly in the same ways. LOL. I can tell you the clitoris would not be a fucking myth, it would be heralded with symbolic imagery akin to a Viagra commercial. Obviously we don't learn from JUST this kind of imagery and media, a huge portion of our sex ed is not from sex ed but from porn, where the norm is not female pleasure but instead male pleasure prioritized over female bodies, desires, autonomy, and safety. All males learn is how to feel good and all females learn is how to make males feel good, as well as how to mimic pleasure whether or not they're enjoying it, or in reality, experiencing pain.
@lbf Oh golly I hope you're ready for a long ass post, sorry. TLDR to the max.
Not informed enough can be taken at the face value of, 'Not informed enough.' He is either informed, and actively ignoring that he could address this more appropriately while choosing to do it his way anyway, or he's just not aware of why this is hurtful and weird/uncomfortable for people who have been victims of this logic.
I'm not the feminist gatekeeper. I can tell you, that right now if you're concerned about whether or not another feminist thinks you're 'legit', your intentions aren't currently in the right place. I don't care how you practice your feminist beliefs. I will go on doing what I'm doing regardless. If you do legitimately care, then as an ally, you should be focused on teaching yourself about feminism & supporting your feminist sisters and women in any way that you can. This means speaking out about sexist behavior especially from male peers (you're coming from a place of power, use it), thinking critically about your own actions and those of others around you, reading theory and trying to form your own ideology. And as any ally, one of the most vital things to do is listen to the people actually facing the problems head on, especially before you approach an issue publicly. Obviously Jim isn't an ally at the moment but if he took these things into consideration, he very well could work in that direction. There isn't a threshold of 'how feminist you are', there is only a legitimate concern/support system for the issues women face that feminists are trying to combat. Obviously there is also a huge difference from a feminist or feminist ally 'in theory' and in action. Most people will start out 'in theory' and slowly start letting their views unfold into everyday behavior. I am not here to grade anyone's feminism, if you choose to subscribe to it then great because we need support. Just make sure you listen, listen, and then listen some more. To women AND to feminists. That is how every female and male who practices should be learning. Don't let one person's writing discredit an entire ideology. Don't listen to me about feminism if you don't like it or me, go find someone else to learn from, I don't care. I just want this shit to end. Lol. Sorry for the diatribe.
Another thing to consider, we live in a rape culture where males don't get called out much for BIG issues, so it's almost a guarantee that there are smaller issues that lead to the larger behavior. Perhaps there are some behaviors that indicate 'rapeyness' that you're noticing I point out or something? Some reason you immediately start jumping to 'Oh, so she's saying all men are rapists..' If so, it's probably because the same logic that rapists apply to their victims is that which leads to smaller confrontations, like an uninformed, entitled man writing a piece that makes a victim of the entitled behavior he discusses feel nervous and uncomfortable. It is an everyday disregard for female problems as legitimate that leads to the everyday problems that females face. It is why, even though we all know 'rape is bad' 'being sexist is bad', rape and sexism still pervade our lives. The most massive parts of systems of oppression are carried out by people who aren't aware they're doing anything, nevertheless anything wrong. From rapists, to other abusers, to your casual sandwich joke making dudebro, this behavior is everyday for all of them. Entitlement from 'lol I'd fuck her' uninvited comments about a coworker all the way to a normalization of rape as 'forced sex' or 'surprise sex' (those jokes aren't jokes at all for the people who practice it IRL.)
Inb4 women aren't capable of being sexist, any woman who hasn't been introduced to feminism is very assuredly practicing sexist ideologies. Women who ARE practicing feminists are, for goodness sake. But they ALL have way more understanding and say than a male will on this subject, even if he's a learned ally.
Not sure where the connection that female orgasms = feminist comes in. There are feminists who believe males can be feminists, but I am not one of them and this is because of the realities of the female body. Males definitely have a place as allies but females and feminists are to be prioritised over them when discussing issues IMO. It's all too often that big male voices drown out smaller voices, with female victims of color always given the last say in things.
'Y'know there's a learning curve being a good (competent, caring, exciting) sex partner to a woman. Every straight dude is somewhere on that curve - Nice Guys, rapists, Jim Behrle and me*. I'm missing the link between that fact and displaying "a disregard for females as active partners". I feel that paints all men as potential rapists which my sister-in-law does, for example, and I don't think she's a harpy, I just disagree.'
The status quo of you and other males being crappy at sex with females doesn't = rapist, it = a general society where women's sexual desires amount to nil. Combined with a billion other factors (fear of sexual assault is an everyday thing for women!!! abortion controversy!!! sexist jokes saturating the media!!!) it creates patriarchal society. This post reinforces patriarchal ideas rather than dismantling said norms. I bet other men WOULD call your sis in law a harpy, and you're aware of that. Many men are 'potential' rapists. I don't care if you think it's mean to identify the source of an epidemic of assault, because I care about preventing more assaults, not some dude being sad that people see his views or behavior as predatory. Women are socialized to be passive vessels, men are socialized to dominate and consume them. Just take a look at this yogurt ad. Nameless female bodies being sold, a fucking ghost penis being pleasured, directly created by males for males.
This is 'regular'. When this is our 'normal', yes, unfortunately many men who subscribe to this version of 'normal' are in reality shaping predatory behavior. Turning women into sexualized objects isn't something to be taken lightly, but it is, and look what's happening to women. Look how we are portrayed by men. Look how we are treated, and how we view and treat ourselves in return. It is absolutely heartbreaking.
'We talk about sex and orgasms, sometimes making jokes; we also make jokes about our own orgasms, about the situational weirdness of being turned on or not turned on, about boners, about the clit. What we all agree on is that baity NYT sex trend pieces are terrible.'
I don't care what you or you and your guy friends talk about. I don't care how informed you believe you are about female bodies. I don't know why any of it is being presented as relevant.
From what I can tell the NYT piece approached an issue that women face with actual seriousness, while Jim is just making random LOLz that I don't understand for the life of me. I'm not sure what is 'baity' about females discussing issues important to them, regardless of how I may agree or disagree. I feel like this post is certainly baity in its 'if you don't lol you're oversensitive or have no humor' approach that doesn't allow for much critical commentary.
'*My personal journey actually involved being told that I needed to be more in touch with what I want instead of second-guessing myself and obsessing about feedback.'
Again, any reason this is relevant? No? Just want to make sure the ladies know? Like I seriously don't get it. I just make like 504059 posts about how the entire sexual creepy misinformed tone of this article made me uncomfortable, are you not noticing that you're forcing me to comment on your sexual preferences? This is the entitlement I'm talking about. Someone has taught you that it's OK to have absolutely 0 filter when talking about this stuff, and that's sadly not the case when you live in a world full of sexual assault victims AND you're the gender most commonly perpetrating them. Talking about sex is healthy, but forcing people to hear about your personal endeavors is at the very least tacky. If not legitimately boundary pushing IMO. But once again, the 'norm' in our society is weird and people don't understand the reality of things until they take a few steps back. That's how it keeps functioning. It's exhausting to always be 'on' and aware of how things are playing out socially, which is why things don't get resolved easily in addition to those fighting directly against you.
Calling out sexism does not = every guy is a rapist. I am tired of that conflation, I don't know if you've been around the Internet but you are not the only male to make that jump. Feminism exists to address real problems and real rapists, not to ~point fingies at mean menz~. Rapists are MADE in our society. They are not just born rapists. Gender matters in this case because most males are rapists, this does not mean that women are unable to rape or are immune to using the same logic. But women don't rape or assault at the phenomenal rates that males do comparitively, and feminism wants us to ask why.
I am probably coming across as a bit ticked off in this post, so just throwing out an apology for any irritation that isn't directed appropriately. I apologize if any of this got rambly, I'm not a writer at all.
@Poubelle ???? LOL wut is this comment, you don't seriously think that a male showboating ~how cool he is to the ladies~ equals empathy towards female issues do you? I wasn't aware that writing a paper for a partner and blogging about it magically makes everyday sexism end. It is, however, a great example of Jim's entitlement if he actually thinks this is significant. I honestly can't tell from his piece if he is willfully rude for the sake of edginess or just legitimately uninformed and buying into the status quo. It's just weird to see here, especially after the piece about the female comedian toeing the line on rape jokes.
@sharilyn@twitter I don't think it's hostile, just ignorant? Offensive because it's dumb and trite.
@lbf I say half-assedly addressed because this article touches on legitimate issues but unfortunately is so shallow that it's useless/harmful. I'm not quite sure if the author is just not informed enough, or perhaps is too entitled to understand the risk of approaching this subject so casually?
Lack of male empathy towards females (in this case, a disregard for females as active partners in sexual encounters) is representative of the larger problem of male violence towards females. Behavior/logic along these lines throws up huge flags for me as a survivor and feminist, that the person espousing them may not be in a healthy place & is susceptible to sexist ideologies. I guarantee any time you have a male who can bring his sexism to the level of violence against women, all the little things come with him, like 'Lol women, orgasms! WHERE IS THE CLIT EVEN' Orgasms, sex, social roles, this is all really political for a Tumblr-y sounding diatribe. These are all huge issues that women are battling at the moment.
I'm not sure if Jim is making fun of the Nice Guy stereotype or if he's actually mocking the issues that Nice Guys bring to the table, but this whole article is unpleasant and thoughtless imo.
Hope that makes some sense.
What The Fuck Is This Post, alternatively:
As a survivor of rape and sexual assault who is deeply concerned about the HUGE lack of empathy/concern that males have for women in society that contributes directly to male violence against women, the 'do it for the lulz' apathetic tone of this article grosses me out.
Honestly, just knowing a piece like this would get put up makes me so uncomfortable reading here. I don't know if this is clicking with any editors but many women actually face all the shit that this article is half-assedly trying to address, most often in the context of abusers. You know, like, this behavior that's getting mocked? It's how women are pushed down and belittled IRL every day. We don't need some dudebro writer trying to convince women he's ~so edgy and informed~ making us relive all the Nice Guy bullshit we face our whole lives. So, while sometimes I can get irritated by an article, this literally just leaves me feeling queasy.
Whatever point was attempted to be made by this has just failed miserably. Really disappointed. It's really confusing having posts like this when The Hairpin generally attempts to approach women's issues in a, I don't know, CARING way? :/ It has always felt like one of the safer spaces to read, especially for enjoyment, so coming across this as I'm trying to relax just makes me very confused as a reader. I could understand if it ended up on the Awl or something. Or if I was reading Jezebel. Lol. ://///
A piece concerning empathy in males that's relevant. http://www.salon.com/2013/10/24/5_ways_sexual_assault_is_really_about_entitlement/