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Tuesday, June 18, 2013

121

"The Mortifying Ordeal of Being Known"

Tim Kreider, for the New York Times "Anxiety" column, writes about accidentally getting cc'ed on a dismissive email with himself as the subject. "There's something existentially alarming about finding out how little room we occupy, and how little allegiance we command, in other people’s heads," he admits, and then humbles himself:

We don’t give other people credit for the same interior complexity we take for granted in ourselves, the same capacity for holding contradictory feelings in balance, for complexly alloyed affections, for bottomless generosity of heart and petty, capricious malice. We can’t believe that anyone could be unkind to us and still be genuinely fond of us, although we do it all the time.

Years ago a friend of mine had a dream about a staircase you could descend deep underground, in which you heard recordings of all the things anyone had ever said about you, both good and bad. The catch was, you had to pass through all the worst things people had said before you could get to the highest compliments at the very bottom. There is no way I would ever make it more than two and a half steps down such a staircase, but I understand its terrible logic: if we want the rewards of being loved we have to submit to the mortifying ordeal of being known.

h/t Hairpin pal Emily Greenhouse



121 Comments / Post A Comment

DullHypothesis

Where's the link to the full article, or am I just not seeing it.

sunflowers

@DullHypothesis full link would be great! This is an absolutely beautiful excerpt. And that phrase, my goodness. Perfect.

iceberg

@Antonius Block Thank you! I am devastatingly intrigued to know what people say about me behind my back; I am certain at least half of it is terrible.

j-i-a

@DullHypothesis oh I am so braindead sometimes, link in the post now

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

Whoah, what a dream! My dreams never have that clear of allegorical content.

hallelujah

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll Right? Why do I get "in room, humping fitness ball" & this guy gets valuable insight on the human condition?

ETA: now that y'all know I hump weird things in my dreams, I will see myself out for the day

Onymous

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll
Yeah I call bullshit on that dream. That's the author's own allegory third partied to lower the attackablity.

Jocasta Carr

@hallelujah Ah, the mortifying ordeal of being known. But really, who doesn't hump weird things in their dreams from time to time?

Onymous

@Jocasta Carr Trufax: I have never humped anything in a dream. I suspect that makes me way more of an outlier by several standard deviations.

miss buenos aires

@Onymous Not even a foosball table? Um, I mean, nothing.

whizz_dumb

@hallelujah Come back, 'humping dreams' is high on my list of favorite comment topics.

Verity

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll I had a really allegorical depression-related dream once (when I woke up I felt almost ashamed about how obvious and contrived the symbolism was). It was weird.

Jocasta Carr

"if we want the rewards of being loved we have to submit to the mortifying ordeal of being known."

I think I need to get this as a tattoo, because I am so very not good at letting myself be known. Also, I feel like "we don't give other people credit for the same interior complexity we take for granted in ourselves" encapsulates everything that lies behind humans' struggles to love and accept each other on a personal and societal level. Thanks for posting this, Jia.

milenakent

this is the amazing@n

hallelujah

In college, my roommate butt dialed me at a party and left a voicemail of a friend saying all manner of terrible things about me. Unpleasant, but I utilized it as an opportunity to get free beer from him for the rest of the year.

Lisa Frank

When I hear something terrible about myself, I'm mortified for a few minutes, but then I feel deep pride that I could inspire such strong feelings in someone. It's like Moliere said: the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.

frigwiggin

Is it worse when people say terrible things about you behind your back, or when they do it and then send those terrible things for you to read because they think it will help you better yourself, and because they're concerned? Not that I have experience with this or anything.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@frigwiggin
Yeesh. That's crazy and v. unhelpful. Sorry to hear about that.

fabel

@frigwiggin The latter is much worse. When it's behind your back, at least you can think, "oh, clearly they're just venting" or whatever, but if they're concerned well, that's shitty. I don't know. I pretty much never want to hear terrible things about myself out of "concern"? but I guess that's why interventions often fail, because nobody does

adorable-eggplant

@frigwiggin I'd go with: "While we're attempting to improve each other, I'll go ahead and mention that you'd be much more tolerable if you kept that terrible stuff to yourself. Jerk."

anachronistique

@frigwiggin The latter is so, so much worse. I expect a certain amount of terrible things to be said about me, because I'm human and I fuck up and my quirks probably irritate the shit out of even my best friends at times. That's life! But when an ex-best friend sent me a careful delineation of all of my faults? God, it still hurts and it's been six and a half years. (She tried apologizing later. R U SRS?)

RoxxieRae

@frigwiggin UGH. Have totally had this happen. A very Good Friend inundated my very Best Friend with a lot of concern-trlling about me one night. Best Friend told me everything (DUH, i think this was Good Friend's plan). In my defense, I spent a solid half day at the river with best friend thinking and talking about whether or not good friend could be right about all that terrible shit before deciding OMG, FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK HER. Good friend never tried to apologize, but did try to send some cutesy "been thinkin' aboutcha" text messages around the holidays. My decision still stands.

But yeah, run of the mill behind the back shit-talking? Dude, i'm hard to get along with, it's cool. Go nuts, and remember I'm doing it too.

Buffy Summers

@frigwiggin I was once a letter-writer of this sort. Wasn't concern trolling, but my feelings were badly hurt by one of my then-bffs and I wrote a long, detailed letter articulating her many terrible qualities and said I wished to never speak again.

To this day (like 8 years later), it's the meanest, worst thing I've ever done and it is the only action in my life I feel a significant amount of regret and guilt over. That I can't undo it/fix it is/has been seriously the hardest fact to swallow.

I hate that I put someone through that- I'm sorry that happened to you too.

dj pomegranate

@Buffy Summers Oh gooodddd, I did this to my friend in middle school. She had done something mean and I was somehow publicly humiliated (middle school, it is the worst.) So I wrote her a letter detailing all the ways I thought she was a terrible friend/person and put it in her bag so she would find it at home. She confronted me the next day and even now, at 30 years old, I feel sick when I think of it. I sincerely try to never cause anyone that kind of pain again, intentionally or not, and I'm sorry that anything like this happened to you @frigwiggin.

Poubelle

@frigwiggin Sending something for a person to read sounds like the most passive-agressive bullshit ever. If the problem's truly bad, use your spine and confront them in person and have a proper intervention. If it's not that bad, let it go.

vunder

Which is worse: When a person says a terrible thing about you that you already suspected/knew to be true, or when a person says a terrible thing about you that you never suspected/knew to be true? Is it worse when people confirm the awful things you think about yourself or when they add to them?

RubeksCube

@vunder For me, it's worse when I didn't realize that I was being terrible. If I knew it was true, I had probably taken some course of action - tried to fix it, tried to hide it, or shrugged and said "Meh, I'm sometimes terrible." If it's a new terribleness, I tend to feel very ashamed/embarrassed, simply because I had no idea.

Mila

@vunder I think I am the opposite: when I have found out criticism that I had never thought of myself I can say "clearly they don't know me at all/have misunderstood behavior, because I am not like that." When I find out someone has been criticizing the things about myself that are my own greatest shame, that I try to hide, I feel exposed, vulnerable, and like now everyone knows I am the worst person in the world (also, apparently, a bit of a drama queen).

dj pomegranate

@RubeksCube Agree. If you know it's true, you have already dealt with it at least a little bit, at least to the point where you have admitted this terrible thing about yourself.

But if it's something I didn't realize already, it can start me down an awful spiraling path: How many other ways am I terrible?!?!?! PROBABLY ALL OF THE WAYS! AM I THE LEAST SELF-AWARE PERSON ON THE PLANET? Do my friends even actually like me?!

mystique

@Mila This is how I see it too -- I know what my flaws are, but I'm hoping the other person doesn't mind them.

RubeksCube

@dj pomegranate Ha, it turns into a spiral that results in something like the Cone of Shame. I am actually terrible in many ways!! CONE OF SHAME!!!!

Mila

@mystique Doesn't mind them, or even perhaps finds them quirky and charming! My best compliment ever was I had an incident where someone teased me playfully about a trait I am ashamed of, and I was mortified (it was my college adviser, somehow that made it worse). And I ran home and burst into tears. Later that same day, my boyfriend and I were hanging out, and out of the blue(I hadn't told him about the incident) started waxing rhapsodic about how much he loved that trait, how I needed to do more to show it to other people, because it was just so great. SWOON. To this day I remember that as the best compliment ever. From the best guy ever, so I married him, because he is awesome.

RNL
RNL

@vunder Definitely, infinitely the latter. I know my flaws. At least I think I do! I know that they are part of the matrix of me, and I'm sort of at peace with that whole business. To learn of something serious that I never considered would be devastating.

@Mila Right?! My boyfriend called me "the most haphazard person imaginable" in an affectionate way, and I swooned. I am haphazard! It's very romantic to me that he finds it adorable. He also once called me the "Unmistakable RNL" and I also swooned. Compliments!

OhMarie

My husband and I have spent many high minutes talking about this idea: "give other people credit for the same interior complexity we take for granted in ourselves."

It may or may not have primarily taken the form of poking the other person in the head and saying "I mean, you LIVE IN THERE."

Big Rig and Jesse

@OhMarie This is basically what my personal Norman Rockwell idealized relationship looks like. Jealous!

fabel

"We don’t give other people credit for the same interior complexity we take for granted in ourselves, the same capacity for holding contradictory feelings in balance, for complexly alloyed affections, for bottomless generosity of heart and petty, capricious malice. We can’t believe that anyone could be unkind to us and still be genuinely fond of us, although we do it all the time."

Sorry to quote the whole thing practically, but I LOVE this. So much. I try to think this way, sometimes I fail, but I really do genuinely try to believe this. People can & do, all the time, hold contradictory things inside their heads.

fondue with cheddar

@fabel It's one of the things that makes us human!

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

Also, generally, I assume that people don't talk about me? Because I feel like my life, while interesting to me, is probably pretty boring to other people? But now reflecting on it, oh god, I bet they do.

iceberg

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll There was one time when a coworker told me and a good work-friend dude that there was gossip about us having an affair, and I was delighted because I hadn't thought anyone found me interesting enough to bother speculating anything of the kind.

martinipie

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll I always think, well, my friends and I talk about our other friends (not serious mean stuff, just like, Oh her, doing her usual things), so obviously they do the same with me, right?

Linette

@martinipie This is my philosophy. I am sure I would hate to hear the way they think about my flaws when they're being brutally frank with one another, because that's sort of the stark, painful version. I know once they've done that, though, they're going to be able to turn around and put those same observations to me, much more nicely and helpfully, because they got their frustration out first.

And I know this because that's what I do for them. Turnabout's fair play.

Urwelt

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll Me too! I can't think of any situation in which I've found out that someone was talking about me. And not that I want that, but then seems like it means I don't inspire strong feelings of any kind in other people. Which doesn't feel good either.

Urwelt

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll Me too! I can't think of any situation in which I've found out that someone was talking about me. And not that I want that, but then seems like it means I don't inspire strong feelings of any kind in other people. Which doesn't feel good either.

Scandyhoovian

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll Haha. I fairly recently had my first instance since probably high school of finding out that someone was discussing me and my life in any kind of way while I wasn't there. It was kind of neat, in a way? I mean, totally baseless nonsense, but still. My reaction was more "perturbed surprise" than anything else.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

"Oh god, Urwelt, she's such a double-poster!"

"Tell me about it!"

VerityStandingStill

@Scandyhoovian I'm usually pretty amused to find out what people are saying about me. In high school it was always that I was either a prude or a slut (how is it that in high school both of those things can be said about one person?). When it's negative my reaction is usually along the lines of, "Meh, fuck those guys." Usually when I find out about something that has been said about me I'm just amused by it. People - even people you consider to be friends - really have NO IDEA about ANYTHING about you most of the time.

par_parenthese

@VerityStandingStill I got prude and slut at that age too!! Which was crazy because a) I had kissed exactly two boys, and they were pecks, and b) I really really liked boys and would happily have gone farther than that, I was just terrified to. From that point on gossip just seemed really stupid and pointless to me.

Mila

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll Maybe you know nicer people than me, but I know most of my friends say snarky things about our other friends. Not like, huge critiques of their very being, but like making fun of their choice of boyfriend or of an annoying facebook post or whatever. And it in no way diminishes how much they love each other. And a lot of times they don't even really mean it all that much, they are just in a bitchy mood or whatever. I had a really awful experience a while back where a pretty toxic friend in our group decided to tell someone everything everyone had said about her in order to hurt her, and let me tell you, as bad as it feels to find out what people are saying about you, it is worse to have what you are saying used to hurt someone. So now I have a policy of no snarking on friends (except to my husband. A lady's gotta vent sometimes!0. And I just try to pretend that it is reciprocated, even though I know it is not.

teaandcakeordeath

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll
Oh no! I do this. I think no one will think about me and then sometimes I don't reach out to them as I don't want to bother them in to thinking about me and then they think I'm cold which is useless.
I think I'm going to start spamming my friends. But yeah my reaction to finding out I've been talked about is mostly surprise.

[sic]

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll I'm always shocked (and somewhat annoyed) when I realize that people talk or think about me when I'm not directly in front of them. Even when it's something totally innocuous, like "I've mentioned to a friend that you like Movie X, too".
Solipsism, or inferiority complex? Or a bit of both?

Bookgerm

This is lovely and true, BUT aren't we overlooking that the offending email was a snarky comment about the author's goat herd. Tim Kreider, if you read this, please know that I'm joking about your goats with sympathy and that I acknowledge your interior complexity.

mmmcheese

"Most of the responses I received expressed appropriate admiration and envy of my goats"--I wish all of the articles I read had this sentence.

VerityStandingStill

@mmmcheese I really feel cheated that he didn't go into detail about the goats. He says the reason isn't important, but to me it is. HE RENTED GOATS AND I WANT TO KNOW WHY.

mmmcheese

@VerityStandingStill He could have at least included a link to rent-a-goat-herd!

dj pomegranate

@mmmcheese Or a photo of the goats next to his by-line!

fabel

@mmmcheese so, literal goats?? Okay, because when I read it I assumed it was a metaphor. Now I want to know more.

fabel

Oh, wow, nevermind. I must've skimmed that shit HARD to think it was a metaphor. "Oof"

VerityStandingStill

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll I think they do that in Portland, OR. But that's more of a city governance thing, not an individual, right?

And talking shit about your parents (or any member of your family) doesn't count. I mean, they're your parents.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@VerityStandingStill
haha, so true!

meetapossum

@mmmcheese You'll be happy to know that goat rentals are very easily found. Apparently people use them to clear out weeds. Who knew?

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@meetapossum
"Are goats the right solution for you?" Obvi yes!

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOATS

mmmcheese

@dj pomegranate I KNOW, right!

meetapossum

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll I just spent the last 10 minutes looking at pictures and reading about their herd dogs.

meetapossum

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll omg, sometimes they bring the goat babies, too!

meetapossum

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll Hahaha, I noticed that, too.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

"Is your dude always sending you pointless texts at inappropriate times? Our herd of goats will eat his phone."

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

"Is your boss saying things about your appearance that make you uncomfortable, but you aren't sure if other people will sympathize with you or just see you as too sensitive? Our goats will explain to them that what really matters is how the comments made you feel."

mmmcheese

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll My favorite goat is the fainting goat.

RoxxieRae

@meetapossum Goats will clear ANYTHING. Blackberry bramble, ivy... the only thing that will eat through all that ish is a herd of goats and they'll do it in an afternoon. All the rural spots in NorCal boast goat herds for rent! They look like fields of Jack Russel terriers when you go by, it's adorable and amazing.

meetapossum

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll "We can also help you set up goat parties, where the goats mingle with guests, wine and beer. The goats are great conversation starters, and help people learn about sustainable weed control and fire protection."

This just keeps getting better and better.

KeLynn

@meetapossum - Alternatively, just buy some goats on craigslist and then sell them again on craigslist when you're done.

My brothers got some goats a while ago, and I have SO MUCH HONEYSUCKLE I want them to take down, but OF COURSE I sprayed poison in my yard right before I found out they were getting goats. And I imagine you shouldn't let goats eat poison.

penultimate toothpaste squeeze

@meetapossum This makes me want a yard so badly, just so I can have goats take care of all the problems with it!

j-i-a

@mmmcheese i really buried the lede on the whole goat thing, i'm so glad you guys pulled it out. i request a follow-up piece from this author exclusively about goat rentals

mmmcheese

@meetapossum As soon as I get disposable income, I'm throwing a goat party, or "goat-down!"

Verity

@meetapossum I would go to that party.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@Verity @meetapossum
If you all want to travel to southeast Pa., we can borrow my parents' herd.

Onymous

@RoxxieRae Also the only thing that works against kudzu.

Though I believe that they can be stymied by creosote bushes (New Mexican goat herders confirm/deny?).

packedsuitcase

@Onymous Oh God, you guys, Dudefriend wants a goat and I'm not even kidding right now I would totally get one a) because look at them! and b) because I feel like it's kind of a cozy, funny version of having Lived Internationally. It would amuse me to forever have been That Woman Who Had Goats.

meetapossum

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll Yes, I would like to have a goat party Pin Up!

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@meetapossum
Haha it's probably a bad idea. Goats, at least my parents' goats, are assholes and will eat your hors d'oeuvres right off your plate.

queenofbithynia

The context is that I had rented a herd of goats for reasons that aren’t relevant here and had sent out a mass e-mail with photographs of the goats attached to illustrate that a) I had goats, and b) it was good.

I take it the critical email was critical because he had rented and not bought the goats. I am literally incapable of imagining any other unkind thing that could be said about this.

iceberg

@queenofbithynia I dunno, I imagine myself quite capable of something along the lines of "isn't it nice some people have so much money they can use some of it for renting goats", while seething with palpable energy, obviously, especially if they were pygmy goats.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

Also, he uses the phrase "uncomfortable income." Does anyone have any clue what that means??

iceberg

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll possibly more than he deserves, definitely more than his friends.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@iceberg
Maybe it's all in solid gold peas, deposited under his mattress on payday!

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll Maybe he shits gold bricks? I imagine that would be uncomfortable?

KeLynn

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll - I figured it meant "a not huge income." Because a comfortable one would be large. An uncomfortable one is perhaps not enough, and maybe if you dont' really have enough money, renting goats is seen as kind of silly?

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@KeLynn
Oh, that's probably right! While I'm joking about it here, I was truly puzzled by what the author meant when I originally read the piece, but now I see how he probably intended to reverse that common phrase, as you suggest. Thanks!

penultimate toothpaste squeeze

@I'm Right on Top of that, Rose Requires uncomfortable social situations in which people say bad things in order to receive said uncomfortable income?

Miss Maszkerádi

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll
Two possibilities occur to me immediately - either an income the future of which is very much uncertain, thereby making the owner of said income uncomfortable. Or, potentially, when one makes enough money to be consumed with guilt over it.

chickpeas akimbo

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll I registered just to reply to this: I have been following Tim Kreider's work for years, and it's clear that he comes from a wealthy family and is sort of a foppish layabout, though a self-aware foppish layabout for sure.
He used to draw a weekly political cartoon, still does on occasion, though somewhat irregularly, I think: http://thepaincomics.com/

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@chickpeas akimbo
No kidding! That's really interesting to know. So a gold star for @Miss Maszkerádi!

The cartoons are great, too.

par_parenthese

"I had rented a herd of goats for reasons that aren’t relevant here"

I BEG TO DIFFER.

Linette

@par_parenthese Goats = always relevant. It is known.

penultimate toothpaste squeeze

I think when I hear people saying mean things about me, the bad feeling isn't necessarily because people might think badly of me. I mean, if I eat way more of your cupcakes then you offered me, it's ok to text your bf and call me a fatty, because, heh, I deserve it. But there's something extra that hurts about the carelessness of sending it to me, even though we all do stuff like that sometimes.

Apocalypstick

I really object to this idea that financial incompetence is "endearing". You're telling me that you're no good at an important part of adult life, don't think it's a problem, and don't care enough to learn. It's not cute.

RNL
RNL

@Apocalypstick Good thing we're not dating.

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

@Apocalypstick "He maxed out my credit cards and overdrew his bank account! Isn't that adorable?"

or, "He traded me his dollar bill because I offered him five dimes, since five is more than one. Isn't that adorable?"

fondue with cheddar

@I'm Right on Top of that, Rose I don't know if what he's describing is financial incompetence. I mean, if he splurges on silly things like goats but is still able to cover his financial responsibilities, then he's merely eccentric, which is endearing.

I'm assuming "uncomfortable income" means a high income that is uncomfortable for others to imagine, and not uncomfortable for him to live on.

Apocalypstick

@fondue with cheddar Not so much the goats alone, more the line "let’s be honest — I am terrible with money, but I’ve always liked to think of this as an endearing foible." which makes it seem like a pattern and something he acknowledges as an issue, but not one he cares enough to change.

fondue with cheddar

@Apocalypstick I definitely agree with you there, but I maintain that it's only a problem if it keeps him from paying his expenses. If he keeps getting his power cut off and getting evicted, then it's bad. But if he merely spends his disposable income on frivolous things, that might be endearing to some. "Goats? Oh man...that's so Tim!"

kienduong

Later that same day, my boyfriend and I were hanging out, and out of the blue(I hadn't told him about the incident) started waxing rhapsodic about how much he loved that trait, how I needed to do more to show it to other people, because it was just so great. read more: may xuat khau

mannequinhands

@kienduong This spam is getting super infiltrate-y.

Poubelle

um, so if you can rent a whole herd of goats, why hasn't some Cubs fan rented some and sent them Wrigley Field? I'm sure a whole herd should take care of the curse.

SuperGogo

@Poubelle They'd also "take care" of the ivy outfield walls in short order.

ThatWench

TOTAL THREAD-JACKING FOLLOWS
(I'd love to FOT this, but I won't be here for it, so I was hoping to solicit some anonymous-yet-excellent advice in here instead.)

Weddings! For me, they are full of enough weird-patriarchy-artifact-things that I've long known that I don't want to throw a "traditional" one. More of my planning would be "Oh, God, not that!" than not, and celebration-via-thing-rejecting just sounds like a bad way to celebrate. I've been weighing out the alternatives: eloping, courthouse, etc. I've also been thinking about one possibility that *feels* like a really bad idea, although I can't articulate why, and I was hoping others would tell me:

The surprise wedding. Something along the lines of, "come to this engagement party, local friends!", with a mid-party announcement of, "Actually, be quiet for a few minutes, we're doing vows." It'd be a way to have all the things we do care about: friends, food, alcohol, bouncy castle... with none of the months-long expectations leading up to it.

I dunno, my gut just tells me that's a bad idea, but I don't want to tell anyone I know in-person, because that would ruin the surprise part. What would you say behind-the-backs of friends who did that? (See! Thread relevance!)

Homestar Runner

@ThatWench ooh, intriguing! I personally would love that. You already know that someone out there will hate any wedding-related choice, so obviously not everyone will love a surprise wedding. My main concern would be people who can't make the "engagement party" but would be so sad to learn that they actually missed your wedding, not just a lead-up party. You might have to get pushy about RSVPs or have a plan for handling those hurt feelings.

Also, if I may be bossy, I would do a small registry at Target or one of those charity registry sites. There will be people who seriously want to give you a wedding present, and it will irritate them if you deny them guidance,and your relationship with your cousin-in-law will be a little awkward for a while for no reason. Ask me how I know...

commanderbanana

I haven't read it yet, but I love love love Tim Kreider. Go buy all of his books, now. Just don't try drinking while reading them.

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