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Friday, May 24, 2013

591

Star Trek Into Darkness: Waiting for Superman

There are going to be some spoilers, after the jump. If that's not cool, just walk on by. The main spoiler isn't even a SPOILER, if you have two eyes and a goddamn brain. Or one eye. Or one of Geordi La Forge's visors. Or fingers which can read interviews with J.J. Abrams in Braille. A single working ear, or a cochlear implant. A telepathic line of communication with the veiny brain scientists of Talos IV, even. It's not a well-kept secret. At this point, I bet Mad Men really is going to end with Don taking a nosedive out the window, just because it seems so obvious.

How about those effects, huh? I saw Star Trek Into Darkness in IMAX 3D and literally tried to dodge some debris. There's a lot of debris. Let's talk about that: how do these starships not fall apart constantly? OK, it's the future. It's pretty far in the future. But, so far, the only way people do not die the minute they enter space is for absolutely nothing to go wrong. If your cup holder doesn't retract right, you're going to die a horrible and lonely death in the frigid vacuum of space. If your engineer has a hangnail and rests his hand on the wrong console, no one will ever find any of your bodies. This is why Apollo 13 is so gripping: it is pretty much the only time anyone in space has ever said, "whoa, THAT doesn't look right," and lived to shake hands with the handsome, inoffensive actor who would portray them in the ensuing biopic. Space is a fucking nightmare.

There are points in this movie in which there is physically less Enterprise than there is Enterprise. It is like a Swiss cheese starship. It's scaffolding with some towels hanging off it. Restoring the warp core under those circumstances (which, whatever, that's not a spoiler, that happens in every single episode of each incarnation) would be like nudging a corpse with your foot and saying, "let's get that watch going, or we will NOT know what time it is." My family's K-car (a fine reliant automobile) ended its long life as the protagonist of a demolition derby, and it looked better than the Enterprise looks two hours in. It's obvious that commerce no longer really exists, because otherwise someone would have tossed a hook on that thing and dragged it back to Earth for the salvage rights. And, whatever, it's happened before in Star Trek, but in this EXACT MOVIE, Kirk drops a (smaller) enemy aircraft by chucking the equivalent of a transistor radio into their engine, and said vessel wasn't even in space.

Just before the jump, which is where all of The Benedict Cumberbatch Coverage can be found, let me say this: as a filmgoer, I had an absolutely wonderful time at this movie. As someone who would never agree to be paid for watching Star Trek lest she lose her eligibility to compete in the Watching and Caring Too Much About Star Trek Olympics, and has committed to naming her first masculine child "James Tiberius," it was a hot mess.

We have to stop making our antagonists "supermen." It's a big problem. The problem is that once we've made them "supermen," we then have to find a plausible way to defeat them. You've got my boyfriend, Benedict Cumberbatch, the greatest living human being, spending an hour and a half embodying a machine of human perfection, both physical and intellectual, and then you have to find a way to make him dumber than people he is demonstrably smarter than. Is it any wonder they have to come up with two equally stupid devices to help it along? No. But do they have to be SO stupid? Kind of! They kind of do! Because when you buy a ticket on the superman ride, it's hard to get off.*

He's too good, is the thing. Not even the character; the character being, of course, Khan. (WHAT! SHOCKER! NO! WHO KNEW?) And, because Cumberbatch does nothing other than act his face off 24/7, you buy it completely. He is better than the rest of us. All of Daft Punk's songs are secretly about Benedict Cumberbatch's Khan. But Cumberbatch's Khan is not Ricardo Montalbán's Khan. Firstly, I love Cumberbatch—he's my guy—but he claims to have really hit the gym in preparation, and I'm not seeing it. Not only was Khan more ripped in Space Seed, Khan was more ripped in Star Trek II, at which point Montalbán was 62 years old. (I will not entertain fake-pec theories at this time.)

The physicality is not really important, though. Again, Cumberbatch is perfect. But with Montalbán, it made sense that the good guys eventually managed to give him the runaround, because he'd been on Ceti Alpha V going crazier and crazier and becoming more "emotionally compromised," to borrow from Spock. Cumberbatch is supposed to be reasonably fresh out of cryostasis and with his faculties intact. More like Space Seed Khan, who, to be fair, was eventually defeated because Kirk brained him with something. It was a different time.

Cumberbatch's defeat is pathetic. Pathetic. You don't think Benedict Cumberbatch's Khan would have popped open a torpedo to make sure there was a frozen dude in there before lighting shit UP? Benedict Cumberbatch's Khan would have checked. Benedict Cumberbatch's Sherlock would have checked. Benedict Cumberbatch's Peter Guillam would have checked. Benedict Cumberbatch's Christopher Tietjen would have checked.

Honestly? Benedict Cumberbatch's Smaug would have checked. And then he would set his enemies on fire, as super-villains should.

One other quibble, brilliantly explained by others, is that no one seems to be worried that Bones has solved the problem of death. No, it's cool! We'll just bring Kirk back from the dead. No one will decide to thaw Khan and his crew and hook them up to Matrix-esque blood-milking machines until their entire society collapses. Nothing to see here.

There is something to see in this movie, though. (There always is, with Star Trek. Even bad Star Trek is sublime). As I sat there, waiting to hear if Kirk would go for accuracy and proclaim his intention to boldly go "where no man had gone before," or if he would take a page from dedicated pro-womanist Jean-Luc Picard, I realized I hoped for the latter. Change is not the enemy, here. Bad writing is the enemy. Bad writing, and contrivance, and cashing checks your mouth can't cash. Maybe Abrams should have had Khan fling the Enterprise into the sun. They'd find a way to explain it away for the next installment, and I guarantee, it would have been a better movie.

*Unless we're calling Benedict Cumberbatch "the superman ride" now. 

Nicole Cliffe is a writer and a Trekkie. People who say they are "Trekkers" are kidding themselves.

591 Comments / Post A Comment

antarcticastartshere

OH WE ARE DEFINITELY CALLING BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH "THE SUPERMAN RIDE" NOW.

JanieS

@antarcticastartshere Ayup.

Allie J

Oh Nicole, that was really quite dirty. I took a moment to parse that sentence and then I blushed furiously.

Amber Stewart@twitter

@antarcticastartshere I came here specifically to say that. NOW WHAT DO I DO WITH MY LIFE??

saeedajmal

We have to stop making our antagonists "supermen." It's a big problem. The problem is that once we've made them "supermen," we then have to find a plausible way to defeat them. You've got my boyfriend, Benedict Cumberbatch, the greatest living human being, spending an hour and a half embodying a machine of human perfection, both physical and intellectual, and then you have to find a way to make him dumber than people he is demonstrably smarter than. Is it any wonder they have to come up with two equally stupid devices to help it along? No. But do they have to be SO stupid? Kind of! They kind of do! Because when you buy a ticket on the superman ride, it's hard to get off.* thumbdata

jams

Is it any wonder they have to come up with two equally stupid devices to help it along? No. But do they have to be SO stupid Facebook Password hack

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The physicality is not really important, though. Again, Cumberbatch is perfect

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Arwen

I was so flustered by Cumberbatch's perfection in the movie that I gave the plot holes a pass. Bad trekkie, I know.

kellyography

@Arwen I did the same thing. In the theatre, I actually whispered to myself, "so handsome" every time he came on screen. Sigh.

hallelujah

NICOOOOOOOOLE *reaches out hand, sobbing*

Nicole Cliffe

@hallelujah When you only saw one set of footprints, that is when Benedict Cumberbatch carried us both in his arms.

hoo:ha

@Nicole Cliffe This just made me laugh so loudly I woke up my sleeping fiancé. Now I'm in trubs. Hope you can live with yourself.

Drawn7979

@hallelujah
definitely need to laugh at that one...

Nicole Cliffe

This was me channeling Guffman while asking Emma if I could write this piece:

Ron: (grabs the stool they’ve been using) Should we leave the?

Corky: No, put that back.

Ron: Strike it?

Corky: Yeah.

Ron: We've done shows for Corky, so we know the lingo already.

RubeksCube

@Nicole Cliffe I would just like to say, in as non-creepy a manner as possible, that I think I love you. You have said everything I could not. This was perfect. So is Benedict Cumberbatch.

wallsdonotfall

Since it's going to come up sooner or later, can we talk about why a white dude played Khan? Competently, sure, but...

My theory is that because the end of the film was just SO reminiscent of September 11, someone realized that having a brown-skinned terrorist-type piloting a spacecraft into skyscrapers could be a) traumatic to the audience, and/or b) racist. (Or just open them to accusations of racism, which, hmm.)

antarcticastartshere

@wallsdonotfall I think it was more the thinly-veiled drone warfare allegory. The veil would have been translucent if Khan was a brown dude.

frigwiggin

@wallsdonotfall @antarcticastartshere

I'm not even sure the decision was that nuanced. I mean, Hollywood has been whitewashing movies and characters for-freaking-ever, so.

wallsdonotfall

@antarcticastartshere Oh man, was there a drone warfare allegory? I didn't pick up on that because the movie didn't seem, um, dense enough for more than one metaphor. (Sorry, Star Trek! Still love you!) What/who were the drones?

@frigwiggin True, but like, there was canon here! And fans!

Also, does Noel Clarke just have a particularly kicked-puppy face that makes him good for coming to bad ends in sci fi? Poor Mickey.

cuminafterall

@wallsdonotfall the part where the admiral was like, "shoot these mysterious torpedoes at the Klingon planet" and Spock was like, "no we have to capture Khan alive because due process!"

antarcticastartshere

@cuminafterall don't forget--he's conveniently in an abandoned part of the planet, so he will be the only casualty!

wallsdonotfall

@cuminafterall Ahh, I see. And then they decide that indefinite detention/torture is better, yeah, hmm!

Miss Maszkerádi

@wallsdonotfall My perhaps completely bullshit theories:
1) Khan Noonien Singh, despite having an Indian name, is not really "ethnically" anything because he was grown in a test tube basically. I'm not entirely totally clear on his origins, but I'd suspect that genetically engineered people don't really fit into any notion of ethnicity.
2) He is descended from ancient British colonists in India?
3) Radiation from something early in the experiment made him weirdly pale.
4) Benedict Cumberbatch was the fucking best actor they could find for the role.
5) I'm a Bad Person and should feel ashamed of myself.

Daisy Razor

@Miss Maszkerádi I can rule out #4: the role was first offered to Benicio Del Toro. Cumby was the second choice.

wallsdonotfall

@Miss Maszkerádi NO they grew him underground in a pile of dirt like white carrots!

Linette

@Daisy Razor . . . much as I love me some Cumberbatch, I am now really, really sad I did not get to see Del Toro Khan.

OhMarie

@Miss Maszkerádi I think I'm on board with your #1--he was part of a big eugenics/genetic engineering thing which was never totally explained, but I believe means he doesn't have parents per se and the name may be totally random (maybe the scientists named him even?).

Of course, that means they could have picked literally anyone and picked white, so. I think ultimately the answer is that Cumby is buzzworthy rather than anything having to do with twisty Trek reasons.

Miss Maszkerádi

@OhMarie Basically these are my thoughts exactly. I expressed myself quite poorly downthread and am now getting called out for white privilege and refusal to think critically, and I feel like a fucking asshole. But I still think there's at least some merit to #1.

hoo:ha

@Daisy Razor ah. That would have been good too.

cee
cee

@Miss Maszkerádi but with 1 we have a massive problem, which is that the filmmakers have taken a story in which a genetically engineered superbeing, who might not have ethnicity per se, was still visibly not-white; and they have reverted to a much more retrogressive version of the same idea which is that of course the genetically engineered superbeing who might not per se have ethnicity looks like a white person.

db@twitter

@wallsdonotfall My husband's theory goes from Data on TNG not looking particularly non-white, and his creator (also played by Brent Spiner) was a Noonien Soong (he thought it was Singh but I just checked! what's the story on that?) so Cumberbatch doesn't look that unlike Data/Lore/Noonien Soong...

frigwiggin

I don't know if I can ever enjoy this movie (I haven't seen it yet) because of the whiteness thing. Which makes me sad. :(

Lucienne

@frigwiggin Yeah, I feel gross about that. And also, I have to ration out John Cho (speaking of charming men!).

Lucienne

@Lucienne Also, tbh, I cannot afford to go to movie theatres.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@frigwiggin
Well, I got dragged along yesterday and if the whiteness thing is the only thing that keeps you from enjoying it, then you've got way more patience for terrible pacing that I do.

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franceschances

I did even know how the Cumberbatch thing was a "spoiler" until everyone freaked out at Rich for his review on Gawker. I am not into Star Trek in anyway and I knew he was Khan...why are people losing their shit? (Not here, just in general)

antarcticastartshere

@franceschances I honestly believe they only "kept it secret" because they didn't want all of the hype to be endless comparisons with Star Trek II. It was just a way to control the media speculation prior to the release, not some insane crazy twist.

blue_canary

@franceschances Geeks like to freak out about stuff. ;)

Seriously though, when there were rumors that BC was gonna be Khan, I thought "Oh, no way, that would be so stupid and lazy and a complete waste of Cumberbatch's talent." But it turns out that I completely underestimated how little Abrams cares about Star Trek or cleverness or anything other than lens flare and blowing shit up! Basically he's Michael Bay mark II, is what I'm saying, and he'll never go broke.

blueblazes

@blue_canary Sweet jesus, the lens flare. I kept taking off my glasses and wiping them, thinking it was ME.

antarcticastartshere

@blueblazes ME TOO.

renegadeoboe

@blue_canary Star Trek III will just be lens flare and closeups of brightly coloured eyes, is what I think.

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redheaded&crazy

I dunno I think it could have used some more shit getting blown up

redheaded&crazy

@redheaded&crazy I will give it an A+ for manly crying moments though. Gotta have your daily dose of man tears.

redheaded&crazy

@redheaded&crazy it just like ... wasn't as good as the first one? I'm not a trekkie. I may be a trekker if that is "raised by trekkies but somehow missed the gene"

so I don't really know! but the first one got me all invested in the characters and excited about the franchise! This one had a lot less personality I thought.

frigwiggin

@redheaded&crazy Oh my god, does BC cry? I love watching him cry in movies.

antarcticastartshere

@frigwiggin oh yeah, dramatic tears.

redheaded&crazy

@frigwiggin you know I can't even remember?! It's possible. There is a cut shower scene making the rounds on my facebook where he has a squinchy don't cry don't cry man face going on. But that got cut. Quota of man tears already reached.

frigwiggin

@antarcticastartshere Oh jeez, now I feel even more conflicted about seeing it. My heart feasts on every tear that man sheds professionally.

Miss Maszkerádi

@redheaded&crazy Holy shit, the part where they basically reversed the ending scene of Wrath of Khan, down to the Vulcan-salute-through-the-glass....I knew it was stupid, and manipulative, and cynical, and unoriginal, and I was SOBBING.

lora.bee

@redheaded&crazy @Miss Maszkerádi Amen. I agree it wasn't as good as the first one, but when they were touching hands on the glass my best friend & I were holding hands and weeping. FRIENDS 4EVA.

fabel

@redheaded&crazy HELLO I am also "raised by trekkies but somehow missed the gene" So I was compelled to see this, & the first one, & enjoyed it, but yeah. I don't know if I'm allowed to have an opinion.

cuminafterall

Now I understand why the ending of this movie made me feel bereft!

(1) Actual resolution of the conflict happens off-camera (they captured and re-froze Khan, or so we are led to believe, having not seen it with our own eyes)

This leads to (a) sudden, barely-explained lack of Cumberbatch (how dare they take him away from us so easily!) and (b) ensuing starship-size plot holes. Disappointing, to say the least. I was, however, entertained!

cuminafterall

@cuminafterall Was also entertained by Chris Pine, who, at one emotional moment, looked as if he were trying to evacuate a particularly solid turd.

redheaded&crazy

@cuminafterall kind of at every emotional moment he looked like that.

yeah-elle

Yes, I really want to talk about this movie! I was looking forward to this movie and was really disappointed.

I have a lot of issues with the choices that went into this movie: the whitewashed Khan, the objectified female characters, the fact that the admiralty round table was old white men + 1 alien, the Chapel throwaway, their weird attempt to turn Kirk into a womanizing asshole, turning Bones into comic relief, etc etc.

But even beyond those problems, even in some kind of bizarre vacuum, this movie just was not very good. The plot was clunky and the pacing was weird, the dialogue was kind of bad, and not in that delightfully-cheesy Star Trek way. I've seen all the people involved act wonderfully in other movies, so I know it's not their ability that's in question. In this movie, each and every one of them had at least one "off" moment. The thing that saved it was seeing the wonderful core cast on the big screen, the beautiful visuals, and the great score.

shalalas

@yeah-elle mostly agree, but I thought John Cho was spared an off moment

yeah-elle

@shalalas Oh yes, actually. John Cho was great, arguably had the most bad-ass moments in the whole movie. I thought Bones' doubt of Sulu's ability seemed off/out of character in that scene, so Cho didn't exactly escape an "off" scene—but his actual involvement was pretty flawless.

shalalas

@yeah-elle I read elsewhere that Bones' doubt/subsequent acceptance of Sulu could be seen as a sort of stand-in for the viewer making it "ok" to root for Sulu...which, yah that scene was just eh.

highfivesforall

@yeah-elle The objectification of female characters was at least relatively par for the course for star trek - but my problem was that the women turned into weepy messes the minute something went wrong. Uhura on TOS was extremely badass and would not EVER have to be told to do her job because she was too busy watching her boyfriend and crying (especially since her job was to help save her boyfriend?)

And THEN after Khan kicks the shit out of Kirk on the other spaceship, and beams him and Scotty and Carol back, the two dudes are supporting her into the bridge! WHAT. How hard would it have been to have Carol and Scotty support Kirk, put him in his chair to recover for a couple minutes, and then he is plausibly back up to speed? Carol did not need to be supported! Khan basically just knocked her over! ARGH there was just so much missed opportunity for lady badassery in this movie. Or even just basic lady competence. YOU ARE A STAR FLEET OFFICER STOP COVERING YOUR MOUTH WITH YOUR HANDS EVERY TIME THERE IS SOME BAD NEWS. Ahem.

Baby Fish Mouth

@highfivesforall I saw the movie last Thursday so it could be that I'm misremembering but I think Khan broke Carol's leg and that's why they had to help her. I'm in complete agreement with your criticism of the lack of lady badassery though.

yeah-elle

@highfivesforall Like @Wiscowhitney says, I'm pretty sure Carol's leg was broken which is why she was being supported, but still: why? Like, why did they choose for her to be injured in such a way, when I'm sure Kirk should have been suffering broken ribs or something similar but was somehow okay? Oof.

What was really disappointing was how some of these aspects (white-washing, female characters, an admiralty that was somehow 99% old white dudes) not only didn't improve from TOS' 1960's standards, they didn't even stay static, some of them regressed, ughhhh.

highfivesforall

@yeah-elle Ah okay, I think I missed that, but yeah, why did he have to break her leg? It wasn't relevant to the plot (unless I missed something else), and it just made her look weak.

hoo:ha

@highfivesforall People get incapacitated in action films so the hero has to do something incredible to survive OR so it's a surprise when they do save their friend. Maybe it was one of these? I don't remember. Too busy wishing BC would squeeze my head even half that hard.

Li'l Sebastian

@highfivesforall My interpretation was that her leg was broken in that scene for the dramatic reason that she couldn't physically stop Khan from getting to her father, because otherwise it she would definitely have tried to stop him until he hurt her badly enough to make her stop.

you're a kitty!

@yeah-elle "the admiralty round table was old white men + 1 alien" THIS INFURIATED ME. This is not my starfleet.

JanieS

YOU WILL NEVER TAKE MY LOVE OF THIS MOVIE AWAY FROM ME. I KNOW IT IS TERRIBLE IN SEVERAL WAYS, BUT THEN THERE'S SCOTTY. ALSO CHRIS PINE'S AMAZING BLUE EYES.

(I have decided to finally watch OG Star Trek on Netflix, and it is truly a marvel to behold. Especially when Spock is macking on angry Romulan chicks with fabulous clothes.)

royaljunk

@JanieS omgggg "The Enterprise Incident." I'm weirdly obsessed with that Romulan Commander and her magenta boudoir.

Nicole Cliffe

@JanieS First, big ups for "OG Star Trek." Second, yeah, Chris Pine has amazing eyes.

JanieS

@royaljunk AND THEN I watched "The Tholian Web", where we got to see Uhura's SLAMMIN' PURPLE CHENILLE BEDSPREAD. Also she has the BEST EARRINGS.

royaljunk

@JanieS YES YES YES. All the 60s space decor/space fashion is amazing.

Dandyliongirl

@JanieS Everything about original Trek is amazing! Especially the episode where they go on shore leave, everyone gets high from flowers pollinating on them, and then Spock hangs upside down from a tree (it is more magical than anything I could ever imagine ok).

the rat lady

There is literally not a thing in this article that doesn't make me love you, Nicole. Especially not "My family's K-car (a fine reliant automobile)".

Renleigh

@the rat lady I knooooowwww! Nicole is the actual best.

Daisy Razor

Okay, this is not related except it is my particular tiny, insignificant bit of Trekkie nerd rage:

HAVING CHRISTINE CHAPEL SLEEP WITH KIRK IS SO WRONG.

And then just mentioning that in passing and also that she's transferred off of the Enterprise? Oh my god, what fucking kind of future utopian society is this where banging your head nurse when you're the goddamn captain is okay?

JanieS

@Daisy Razor The kind of future utopian society where the captain inserts himself into the personal dramz of his 1st officer and head communications ... person?

Miss Maszkerádi

@Daisy Razor The kind of future where Jim Kirk is.....still Jim Kirk?

Daisy Razor

@JanieS oh don't even get me started on that. I don't actually have that much of a problem with Spock and Uhura being together, but letting their drama interfere with their jobs is so out of character, ugh.

yeah-elle

@Daisy Razor Yes, and then having Kirk just not remember her? First off: Jim Kirk would never. Second: Bones would eviscerate him for treating his head nurse badly. Third: Chapel would have preferred Spock.

Also, I read a really infuriating interview where either Orci or Lindelof (don't remember which) said they thought it was a really nice "nod" to TOS/Chapel's character. What. the. fuck. How, even? They thought, "Oh, what's a good way to incorporate a beloved and respected character from TOS? Let's have her humped/dumped/forgotten! PERRRRFECCTTT."

Daisy Razor

@Miss Maszkerádi nope, he never slept with any crew members in TOS. They teased him and Yeoman Rand, but never went there.

royaljunk

@Daisy Razor Mainly I'm just sad that we'll probably never ever get a reboot version of Chapel now. :T

Allie J

@Daisy Razor
Kirk is a huge slut, so this is not surprising to me. That man will stop at nothing. It's times like these I think about the refined and gentlemanly Jean-Luc Picard and just smile.

Not that I'm trying to start a captain war or anything. It's just, Kirk is a whore, it cannot be denied.

EDIT: I just read your comment that he never slept with a crew member. Really? I'm shocked.

yeah-elle

@Allie J Beyond his no-crew habits, as far as I can remember, Kirk also treated conquests kindly. He was a huge flirt and may have had his fair share of sexual partners, but it was hugely out of character for them to imply that he slept with someone directly under his command, and then...ignored them? Until they felt so badly that they transferred away from the Enterprise?

StandardTuber

@Daisy Razor Ok, I can understand the relationship drama between Spock and Uhura though. They are young in this series, this is how young people behave.

And I like Kirk as a playboy, because that gives us a chance to see in a future treatment for him to learn from this, by perhaps receiving payback from a date. And let's not forget that whole anger-fighting issue, too. Where did that come from? I don't know, but I think the untamed and wild Kirk coupled with the healthy and playful relationship between Uhura and Spock is fun and allows for a future filled with Start Trek movies.

StandardTuber

@Daisy Razor Also just wanted to post this here, Chapel and Spock, awkward timez.

Daisy Razor

@StandardTuber Well, they were all under the influence of an alien virus in that ep. That episode also features shirtless, fencing Sulu.

And I'm fine with playboy Kirk. Kirk sleeping with women directly under his command and making them uncomfortable enough that they transfer off the ship? Hell no.

@Allie J I am also a Picard girl, if forced to choose, but beyond Kirk being a ho, Bones would have had Kirk's ass in a sling for banging his head nurse.

Lucienne

Guys, we all know Kirk was sleeping with a crew member, it's just that crew member was Spock.

Meeple

@Daisy Razor Okay so this thread is pretty old BUT I logged in just to say this so here I am:

I feel like the decision to throw-away mention Nurse Chapel as being gone was done out of respect for Majel Barrett-Roddenberry. Because she was so important to the series? Because, to a certain extent, Majel the person was more important than Chapel the character? I also noticed that the Enterprise barely talked AT ALL (maybe only one line at the end).

yeah-elle

@Meeple I doubt it. If not recasting/rebooting Majel Barrett-Roddenberry's character was out of respect, you think they'd have come up with a better way to do it. She could be out of the picture because she became CMO of her own ship, or was off on special missions, or was receiving special training in xenophysiology, whatever. And then the ways to drop this information would be numerous. Carol could still mention Chapel as a mutual friend, but Bones could also lament the absence of his best nurse, his unease replacing her, for instance.

If you want to show respect for a character and the woman who played her, hopefully you'd go a different route than having her be swept aside by a roving womanizer who made her work atmosphere so miserable that she requested to transfer ships. As it was, Chapel became merely (highly out of character) character development fodder for Jim, at a moment where it didn't even matter.

Disappointing and gross in the first place, but doubly so if they actually thought they were showing respect.

Lisa Frank

Can we talk about the dumb as shit comments Bob Orci made about needing to have a shot of Alice Eve in her underwear because "the boys need something to watch." hyuk hyuk hyuk.

I hope JJ will be too busy with Star Wars when it comes time to make the third movie and they have to start fresh with a whole new writing team and director. Because these four bozos are just terrible!

I have a lot of Trek feels, ok!

dj pomegranate

@Lisa Frank Yeeeeeah, my eyes were rolling so hard under those 3D glasses.

yeah-elle

@Lisa Frank Ew, yes, and then JJ tried to kind of justify it by saying that they had shirtless Pine for the ladies. Which completely ignores the fact that he was in bed with TWO MORE scantily-clad ladies (who barely spoke), the scene served his character as (dubious) character development, and if we're really going to throw stones, we didn't even get to see abs. WE DEMAND ABS.

Lisa Frank

@yeah-elle Also that Pine-butt. That Pine-butt is perfection. I wanted some shots of Dat Ass in tight pants. #FemaleGaze

yeah-elle

@Lisa Frank I distinctly remember a strategically placed beam/pole/BUTT BLOCKER in the scene where Chris Pine and Karl Urban are in those wetsuits. I also distinctly remember thinking, "ARE YOU KIDDING ME? SOMEONE MOVE THAT BEAM. WHO IS THE TRUE VILLAIN IN THIS STORY?"

JanieS

@yeah-elle :clenches fists dramatically:

BEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!

yeah-elle

@JanieS

Spock: *Angrily punching beam*
Uhura: Spock! SPOCK! IT'S THE ONLY SUPPORT THE ENTIRE BRIDGE HAS.
Spock: *Thinks about the bridge collapsing, majestic Pine-butt being crushed under the rubble. Stops punching.*

JanieS

@yeah-elle You're going to make people look at me funny due to all the giggling.

keynesiancutie

I watched the movie last night with my boyfriend, and I had a related reaction -- I told him I liked it as a fun action movie with inside jokes I got, but not in the same way I loved Star Trek. I grew up with/am still obsessed with TNG and DS9 so I actually didn't know who Khan even was! I never watched the originals, so I think my lack of knowledge on that front allows me to enjoy these movies more.

antarcticastartshere

@keynesiancutie Girl, go watch the second through fourth and sixth movies RIGHT NOW.

antarcticastartshere

@keynesiancutie oh and generations! but you can turn it off after Picard and Kirk THROW DOWN, YES THAT HAPPENS.

keynesiancutie

@antarcticastartshere It's on my to do list this weekend - Star Trek II is on netflix streaming!!! BUT I'm glad I didn't do it before I watched the movie because then I could just enjoy the hotness while being ignorant to a lot of the problems :)

TheBourneApproximation

@keynesiancutie

The release of this movie has mostly made me want to go watch a ton of DS9. Kira Nerys and Ben Sisko will kick this film's sorry white male ass!

Also, I rewatched Wrath of Khan on Netflix Instant very recently after not seeing it for like 20 years, and it actually holds up extremely well! It's a good film, period.

antarcticastartshere

Aside from all the things I have freaked out about on facebook/twitter over the past week, which are just funny bad, it is really disappointing that everything I (and I think others?) REALLY LIKE about Star Trek--the neoliberal let's talk this out politics, the themes of equality and exploration--have basically been stripped from the reboot so it's just another generic "sci"-fi action movie. Go play with Star Wars, JJ.

martinipie

@antarcticastartshere yup yup yup yup yup times a billion

Hiroine Protagonist

@antarcticastartshere Neoliberal? Do you mean hyper-liberal?

antarcticastartshere

@Hiroine Protagonist I meant neoliberal as in the international relations theory, which states that international politics is not a zero-sum game and that states therefore should work towards absolute gains rather than relative gains over other states. It's the theory that supported the creation of the EU, NATO, etc. I'm assuming you're thinking of neoliberalism in economics, which is a different, unrelated thing.

I was an IR major and it is literally only good for explaining political allegory in Star Trek.

Hiroine Protagonist

@antarcticastartshere I was! And thank you for the awesome explanation, which I remember from undergrad, but has been eclipsed by years of social justice agitating where neoliberal is basically a swear.

monicamcl

I couldn't give a crap about Star Trek and spent the entire film mentally documenting the various shots of Cumberbatch's ass, but even I wondered where the fuck Bones got a dead tribble.

wallsdonotfall

@monicamcl When he burst out with "This tribble is DEAD!" I started laughing so hard and so silently that I hyperventilated and felt lightheaded for the next fifteen minutes. That was the only time I laughed for the whole film.

Miss Maszkerádi

@monicamcl Major continuity fail. Tribbles were discovered by the Federation during the later incident with the Klingons trying to poison the grain shipment.

antarcticastartshere

@wallsdonotfall I laughed so loudly people turned around and stared at me after "I synthesized a serum from his superblood."

I could see the light in Karl Urban's eyes die as he said that.

yeah-elle

@antarcticastartshere Yes, I felt so bad for Karl Urban. All the interviews he gave about Bones' strength as a humanist and his moral core and his role as the heart in the triad of Kirk/Spock/Bones...and then his character was reduced to comic relief and "superblood," ughhh.

AuntAgatha

Even worse, not-emotionally-compromised Khan was defeated by being punched a lot by emotionally-compromised Spock. What tomfoolery is this?? Still though, it was a fun movie with lots of nice explosions.

phenylalanine

"IF YOUR NAME IS KHAN NOONIEN SINGH, WHY ARE YOU WHITE?"

"...oh my god, Spock, you can't just ask people why they're white."

Miss Maszkerádi

@phenylalanine To be fair on the whole ethnicity-of-the-actors bit, Zachary Quinto is also not a Vulcan.

phenylalanine

@Miss Maszkerádi Aliens do not exist in reality; Indian people do. I don't have the energy for a more thorough argument, but if someone else wants to jump in here, feel free.

Miss Maszkerádi

@phenylalanine ...uh....

Chekov: I was...making a little joke, sir.
Spock: Extremely little, Ensign.

Nicole Cliffe

@phenylalanine HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

stuffisthings

Also Nichelle Nichols is not from Tanzania.

la berry

@stuffisthings and can we point out the original Khan was played by Ricardo Montalban, who was mexican. But hey, he was brown so I guess that's all that matters.

stuffisthings

@la berry Also how come Star Trek VI never gets credit for having the first openly gay starship captain? (Or was the in-universe reason Sulu always wore a kimono in his San Francisco apartment that he was Asian?)

stuffisthings

also in IV he basically just flirts with a helicopter pilot and then disappears for the rest of the movie.

shantasybaby

@la berry For real. This whitewashing shit seems way silly- he's a test tube person, there's no reason to believe he is ethnically Indian (or Mexican.) They probably picked a white actor because a) he's got a lot of buzz and was great at playing that character (and someone up thread said Benecio Del Toro was considered, so it wasn't just like MUST HAVE WHITE PERSON.)

Miss Maszkerádi

Guys, this thread makes me sad. I saw it yesterday (also in IMAX 3D, and yes I also tried to dodge debris) and it was the absolute best goddamn time I've had at the movies in a very very long time. But now all I can think about is how Problematic It Is and how I'm a terrible person for not really even noticing or caring.

Miss Maszkerádi

@Miss Maszkerádi I mean like my first thought when I heard Cumberbatch would be Khan was "COOL!" not "BUT HE'S WHITE!" What kind of a person am I?

ETA: I know it sounds like I'm being sarcastic as usual but I'm not really. I just can never get worked up about these sorts of things (I've read entire articles about how HORRIBLE the film is solely because of the two-second shot where Kirk peeks at Carol in her underwear, because MALE GAZE, and I think it's absolutely ridiculous) and it is honestly starting to make me wonder if I am THE PROBLEM WITH SOCIETY.

OhMarie

@Miss Maszkerádi Man, me too--I saw it on Saturday after I walked to the movie from an all-day wine festival so I was DRUNK and it was GREAT.

I am also a huge Star Trek person (watching the end of Deep Space 9 for the first time ever, and goddamn it is glorious), but I am very willing to just pretend this is a completely different thing.

dj pomegranate

@Miss Maszkerádi Bahhh, my comment disappeared?! Can I re-type in 2 min?!

Basically, I had the same experience and I think it's fine to enjoy a movie and suspend disbelief and then talk about the problems later. Otherwise, we would not even have any movies to watch. I will be The Problem With Society right there with you.

Although I did roll my eyes at the underwear scene. Gratuitous!

Miss Maszkerádi

@OhMarie Re: the "completely different thing" - I was SO PISSED OFF at the first reboot, because how dare anyone reboot the originals and blow up Vulcan and make everyone weird and different. This time, it struck me that Kirk and Spock et al are basically some of our era's biggest folk heroes, and it's turning into a commedia dell'arte situation: the archetypal characters are basically up for grabs now, and can be used by various writers as they wish. I was able to suspend disbelief/nerd rage a lot more this time and it was just a fucking blast.

Miss Maszkerádi

@dj pomegranate See, I just laughed at the underwear scene, because Jim Kirk is.....Jim Kirk. *exasperated yet amused sigh.*

ALSO SCOTTY OH MY GOD. "Well, if it isn't Captain James Tiberius Perfect-Hair!" WHAT WAS THAT I LAUGHED SO HARD.

dj pomegranate

@Miss Maszkerádi Seriously Scotty's lines were all pure gold.

lora.bee

@Miss Maszkerádi "I'm running!" It's embarassing how hard I laughed at that.

Bayou

@Miss Maszkerádi Fucking blast is right, preach it sister! I was giddy after this movie. I guess people go to movies for different reasons, but my reasons for seeing this one were Fun With Space And Aliens and it delivered. I mean, it was ridiculous in parts, but ridiculous is fun!

hallelujah

@Miss Maszkerádi You're not a terrible person for not noticing, as that's a big part of White privilege right there. Not giving a shit once it's explained why it's upsetting to some to have yet another ostensible person of color erased from film, yeah, that's kind of shitty.

Allie J

@lora.bee
Also, "Captain, this door is very wee." My decade-long crush on Simon Pegg continues.

Miss Maszkerádi

@hallelujah My position is less "I don't give a shit" than "I'm not sure the exact ethnicity of a fictional 24th-century genetically engineered superhuman is really a big enough issue in the grand scheme of things to spend too much energy getting upset about," but think whatever you want about me.

Miss Maszkerádi

@Miss Maszkerádi Also, there is literally exactly not a single damn thing I can do about the casting of a movie that has already been made, finalized and released. I'm not being a shitty person I'm just choosing my battles.

Lucienne

@Miss Maszkerádi No one think you're personally responsible for casting a white guy as Khan (and I get we're you're coming from on his race/lack thereof, but the move was made in the 21st century, and speaks to and about the 21st century - whether it wants to or not - and "he's not really ethnically identified" doesn't seem that tenable in the 21st century) but I think some people might be frustrated that you're taking their frustration with something systematic in culture and making it about how, like, your white privilege let you enjoy the movie but now you have to think critically about it and it makes you feel bad about yourself. Except it's not making you feel bad about yourself?

No one's taking your summertime popcorn flick away from you.

Miss Maszkerádi

@Lucienne OK, OK, I'm sorry already. I clearly DO FEEL BAD ABOUT MYSELF otherwise I wouldn't be getting all defensive. This all kind of blew up into a larger discussion than I ever really intended to. But, again, what exactly am I supposed to do?

Lucienne

@Miss Maszkerádi Support art that doesn't do this kind of thing. Recognize the way power impacts your appreciation of the film. Let people who do want to vent about it vent about it without making it about how hard it is to think critically about your white privilege.

There's more than one way to engage with the movie - your way is fine. It's good that you had fun!

Miss Maszkerádi

@Lucienne I support plenty of art of plenty of genres, casting-ethnicities and degrees of politicization, and people of all opinions are free to vent as much as they like. I already am tied up in knots most of the time about my white middle-class privilege, believe me. Just this particular issue at first struck me as kind of minor.

Lucienne

@Miss Maszkerádi I wasn't questioning your multicultural bona fides - you asked a very general, very basic question and I gave a very general, very basic answer.

Li'l Sebastian

@Miss Maszkerádi Can I say, one 23-year-old white girl to another? Just because you think it's minor doesn't mean it is.

Miss Maszkerádi

@Li'l Sebastian I'm aware of that. Please, I've been sufficiently educated on this topic now and the only reason my earlier posts are still up is because there is no possibility to delete stuff after five minutes here. I get it, okay? I said some ignorant things and I'm aware I'm probably not welcome here anymore. Thanks for joining in.

Honestly, I know I'm just being Whiny Privileged White Girl for saying what I'm about to say, but this particular thread is starting to feel like a bit of a pile-on. I've retracted earlier statements, said stuff like "this AT FIRST seemed to be a minor issue" and apologized left and right, and I'm still getting called out. I GET IT. I'M SORRY. Can we please just leave it alone now?

dj pomegranate

@Miss Maszkerádi For what it's worth, it feels like a pile-on to me too, and I did not even make the initial statement.

I think it's pretty clear that everyone commenting on the Pin is concerned with problematic presentations of race/gender/sexism/etc in the media, and is pretty articulate re: soul-searching and privilege-identifying--and if they're not, they're generally very willing to learn. I also think it's fair for someone to say, "this particular problematic thing is not in my top priorities, although it may be someone else's top priority and I am not sure why" (or some variation of this.) Maybe @Miss didn't choose the exact correct perfect inclusionary words to express that, but it's a bit much to assume that s/he doesn't want to think critically about these things.

tc
tc

@dj pomegranate And I'll say I don't think it was a pile on at all. If white-washing doesn't matter to you, then say it once, if you absolutely must, and then let people who want to have a discussion about it talk. You'll notice MM inserted herself into EVERY thread where people were trying to discuss it, thus derailing the conversation. How many times did she have to say "lalala I love it I don't care hahaha brown people you don't matter anyway?" That behavior is a prime example of white privilege, and it deserves to be called out. The few commenters who did address it were polite, and if MM was stupid enough to make the same comment on a website less lily white than this one, she would discover what a pile on really is.

Secondly, I don't think it's "clear that everyone on the Pin is concerned with problematic presentations...in media." The reason so many women of color are wary of feminism is because the movement consistently marginalizes non-white, non-cis, non-straight voices. It's not a matter of "using the right words" but actually fucking meaning them. And I don't think I owe anyone the benefit of the doubt on these issues. Commenting on the Hairpin does not give you bigot pass.

Miss Maszkerádi

@tc I'm not a bigot, and I never once said brown people don't matter. Seriously, people. I stuck my foot in my mouth a few times (not due to bigotry, due to a failed attempt to think critically about the issue - do you ever do that, try to see other sides of an argument?) and then the rest of the time I was just trying to apologize and defend myself against accusations of racism and repeatedly, futilely, ask the good people of the Pin to please let the subject drop. I see I've made myself a public enemy here, so I'm sure I won't be returning to comment in a very long time, but I'm not a fucking racist.

Li'l Sebastian

@Miss Maszkerádi I didn't read the posts below this one before commenting and I didn't realize that you had discussed it further -- I probably wouldn't have said anything if I had. I seriously intend this as advice, as someone who has made stupid comments and gotten hit with some criticism -- it is pretty much never useful to defend yourself against someone calling you racist. Try to understand, apologize, and move on. If that person thinks you're racist forever, so be it. Trying to control how other people perceive you is just going to make it worse.

The worst thing around racism that can happen to us as white people is getting called racist, but compared to what people of color experience around racism? It's really really really not that bad. Looking for sympathy and asking for the benefit of the doubt because your feelings are hurt because you said something that hurt other people and they pointed out, "HEY, that hurts!" is not going to win you any sympathy.

3penny

Can we please talk about how Simon Pegg pranked Benedict Wossname? Because it is marrrvelous.

Li'l Sebastian

@3penny Ahhhh that you for sharing that video. It is amazing.

Laughable Walrus

@3penny "the ions were getting to me" is my new favorite excuse for messing things up.

Miss Maszkerádi

Also: needed more cute baby-face Chekov saving the ship.

(My twelve-year-old self may or may not have had an absolutely enormous crush on Original Series Chekov.)

dj pomegranate

@Miss Maszkerádi When we left the theater mr. pomegranate was like, "Don't even pretend you didn't titter every time Chekov came on screen."

Miss Maszkerádi

@dj pomegranate HE'S SO CUTE and tiny and Russian and excitable!

When he was running frantically around engineering in those Golden-Age-Sci-Fi flight goggles I think I actually squee-ed aloud.

stuffisthings

@Miss Maszkerádi Of all the things they could've changed in the reboot, couldn't they fix the spelling on Chekov's name?

Roxanne Desforges@twitter

If you haven't seen this Nicole, your welcome.

http://www.totalfilm.com/news/j-j-abrams-reveals-deleted-star-trek-into-darkness-scene

AuntAgatha

@Roxanne Desforges@twitter I am eternally grateful to you for sharing this. But seriously though, Abrams thought that little glimpse of Kirk's shoulder area while he's in bed with two lady-aliens "balanced out" the Alice Eve underwear shot? Really, Abrams?

Lariope

@antarcticastartshere yes perfect

stuffisthings

The best thing about Star Trek: Into Darkness is that it made me re-watch all six of the original Star Trek movies with my wife to prove how much better they are. Even V, if it had a modern FX budget, would've been a better movie (and made equally as much sense, plot-wise.)

Also, Nicole, at the very end of VI Kirk actually officially makes the transition by saying "To boldly go where no man -- no one -- has gone before."

Nicole Cliffe

@stuffisthings But that's future Kirk, and it sounded like he had a gun to his head! This is young Kirk, so it's more meaningful.

Nicole Cliffe

I am seeing it again on Monday, btw.

JanieS

@Nicole Cliffe I need to shell out for the Imax 3D. I don't think I got the full Spaceships-blowing-up-in-mah-face experience.

paper bag princess

I had a good time at this movie and enjoyed watching Cumberbatch wear the hell out of yet another wool coat, and realizing that the Trek costume department obviously watches Sherlock.

And then I don't really want to think about it any more because I know it is a lot wrong. But I did think it was great strictly as a moviegoer, not as a thinker or Trekkie.

lora.bee

@paper bag princess God, those mock turtlenecks he was wearing just did it for me, ifyouknowhatimean. And, strangely, when his hair was all out of place and emo-ly flipped over his face.

BASICALLY HIM ALL THE TIME K

stuffisthings

OK I'm starting a thread about who should play Picard in the inevitable TNG reboot -- GO!

Miss Maszkerádi

@stuffisthings AN ACTUAL FRENCHMAN

stuffisthings

(Also it's too bad Cumberbatch shot his wad on Khan, he'd make a great Data)

antarcticastartshere

@stuffisthings I think he would have made a great Picard.

mooseketeer

@antarcticastartshere Soon he will be playing all roles in all movies.

mooseketeer

@mooseketeer he would kill it as Troi

antarcticastartshere

@mooseketeer OH MY GOD YES.

royaljunk

@mooseketeer NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO my worst nightmare

lora.bee

@mouseketeer BC playing all roles in all movies IS the dream, you know.

catsuperhero

@stuffisthings I don't know many (okay, fine, ANY) French actors off the top of my head, and as much as I've had a crush on Patrick Stewart and his English accent since I was about five, a Frenchman would (obviously) be appropriate.

But since Abrams has blasted the hell out of continuity already, I'd be more than happy to see Tom Hardy back into Star Trek, this time as actual-Picard.

I'd think about who'd end up as Riker (I cannot think of anyone smooth and douchey enough off the top of my head), but I can't see a TNG reboot ever happening. At least TOS delivers as a plausible action-film inspiration. TNG was far too...sterile for the way reboots are going.

anachronistique

@stuffisthings Dule Hill for Geordi La Forge.

catsuperhero

@anachronistique Jim Parsons for Data?

Miss Maszkerádi

I am officially colonizing this thread. But does anyone know what the hell was going on with the sudden Leonard Nimoy appearance and Spock talking to his future-other-universe self?!?!?!!?!

redheaded&crazy

@Miss Maszkerádi oh I found the leonard nimoy cheat super grating. YOU ALREADY DID THAT LAST TIME.

antarcticastartshere

@Miss Maszkerádi UGH UGH UGH UGH UGH UGH OK THIS.

Khan was a fucking WARLORD in a major genocidal war that happened 300 years ago.

NOT KNOWING WHO HE IS IN 2259 OR W/E IS LIKE ME SAYING RIGHT NOW, "who the fuck is George Washington?"

also Nimoy didn't even NEED to tell them that (since he is all concerned about interfering or whatever) he seriously could have just been like, "Uh, check out space-wikipedia," and they would have known he was bad news ahhhh!!U'0u;/ouhrzs/sr;ghnjvzsfvb

redheaded&crazy

@antarcticastartshere although if they had pulled up space wikipedia, I would have been equally as grated. (PERHAPS MORE SO)

antarcticastartshere

@redheaded&crazy I'm just assuming space high school is terrible in this timeline.

stuffisthings

@antarcticastartshere They're too busy remembering obscure mid-20th century cultural references to have any knowledge of actually important history from the same era, obviously.

antarcticastartshere

@stuffisthings Let's just all take a moment to be grateful that the Beastie Boys were still able to record "Body Movin'" given the tumult of the Eugenics Wars.

redheaded&crazy

@antarcticastartshere but they showed us crazy vulcan school in the first one and it was all crazy and shit! oh now this is bothering me even more.

i mean, I get that people just love and want to see leonard nimoy. BUT COME ON.

stuffisthings

To be fair the same thing happened in Star Trek II. Chekov took, like, an embarrassingly long time to work out that the madman they found marooned on Ceti Alpha V could possibly have anything to do with the madman they had marooned on (what he thought was) a different planet int he Ceti Alpha system...

antarcticastartshere

@stuffisthings Chekov wasn't on TOS when that episode aired, that's why he didn't know!

royaljunk

@antarcticastartshere Chekov was in the bathroom.

Allie J

@redheaded&crazy
But if he hadn't contacted future Spock, I'd have been all, "There's future Spock out there and you didn't ask him about this guy? Why would you ignore that resource!" So yeah, I give it a pass. No, I give it a thumbs up. Also, I really love seeing young Spock and old Spock interact and will accept any plot contrivance that gets me what I want.

Miss Maszkerádi

@stuffisthings Especially because travel between two different planets in the same system is so difficult!

LilRedCorvette

"let's get that watch going, or we will NOT know what time it is."

I know this isn't an accepted colloquialism, but that's not going to stop me from saying it ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

Scandyhoovian

I spent a lot of time feeling cranky 'cause I already have Wrath of Khan, can't I have a new storyline? Can't we come up with new stories?

But then I just decided eh you know what, it's pretty. It may not feel like Star Trek to me, but whatever. Sometimes you just want a pretty adventure.

stuffisthings

Re: the title of this blog post, don't you think a little more high-stakes testing might've prevented Reboot Starfleet from being run and populated by so many dimwitted jackasses?

hahahaha, ja.

You guys
I got the prequel comic
And on one page
THERE'S A PENIS
(I mean, it's really a printing error, there are a couple of splotches on that page, but still)

THERE'S A PENIS FLOATING AROUND IN SPOCK'S QUARTERS

honey cowl

@hahahaha, ja. niiiiiiice

StandardTuber

I LOVED THIS MOVIE WITH ALL THE LOOPHOLES AND TRIBBLE-WACKINESS.

But my only quibble is with Chekov's accent. Did anyone else think it was kind of bad? :(

yeah-elle

@StandardTuber I read somewhere that his terrible accent was supposed to be a homage to Koenig's. Anton Yelchin is a native Russian speaker, he must be able to do a correct accent if he wanted to!

StandardTuber

@yeah-elle I can't buy it, though. It was just really too stilted. I am guessing it was dumbed-down for Americans.

honey cowl

NICOLLLLLLEEEEEE!

I just came down here to yell that, I don't care about Star Trek but I'm going to read it anyway because Nicole!

martinipie

After seeing comments Abrams made where he basically said "I don't give a crap about the philosophy of Star Trek," I decided I would not be seeing this, and it breaks my heart. Besides--and it's clear from this thread I am in the minority--even if he weren't whitewashed, I had no desire to look at BC's face for two hours.

gonna go be bitter and watch TNG all by myself

royaljunk

@martinipie nah I'm super bitter about it too. I'll probably go see it, but I'm not in a big hurry. Also I have an irrational dislike of Benedict Cumberbatch and resent that he's suddenly everywhere. At least in The Hobbit I won't have to look at his face I guess???

martinipie

@royaljunk Are we secretly the same person? Because your feels are my feels.

royaljunk

@martinipie (solidarity fistbump)

anachronistique

@royaljunk CAN I GET IN ON THIS FISTBUMP because yes.

you're a kitty!

@martinipie I also have a visceral dislike of BC's face and general existence (Sherlock oversaturation on tumblr, I think), and I really didn't want to look at his face for hours, but to be fair he did a very good job. It was confusing to me.

stonefruit

@you're a kitty! I avoided this thread because I didn't see the movie until last night, but now I can say: I feel like his face looks like Lord Voldemort right after he becomes "human" again. Something about his nose shape maybe? Anyway I wasn't into his face either.

On the other hand, I literally wanted to make out with his voice. So resonant and sonorous! Good lord.

martinipie

also kinda sad about how few comments there about said whitewashing/how flippantly is is being dismissed.

Miss Maszkerádi

@martinipie Isn't like half this thread about whitewashing?

Lucienne

@Miss Maszkerádi I think @martinpie means in the original post.

Daisy Razor

@martinipie I'm not thrilled by the dismissiveness either. Here, have this interview where John Cho pointedly notes that Ricardo Montalban was a person of color

Lucienne

@Daisy Razor John Cho never disappoints.

royaljunk

@Daisy Razor I LOVE how John Cho is just telling it like it is. (but it also makes me worried J.J. will fire him)

Miss Maszkerádi

@Daisy Razor He was not even close to Indian of any sort either, though. If it's such a problem to have a British guy play Khan, why is it not a problem for a Mexican guy to? I'm being quite serious here. The world isn't divided into "white people" and "Everyone else."

royaljunk

@Miss Maszkerádi I think it's not unreasonable to expect higher standards wrt race for a movie made in 2013 vs. a TV show in 1966??? Ricardo Montalban playing Khan had its own set of problems, but rather than choosing to cast an actual Indian person this time around they picked a white British man.

Daisy Razor

@Miss Maszkerádi Because in 1967, there were very few people of color at all in Hollywood and studios thought nothing of doing things like this. To have a person of ANY color playing a major character, nevermind one who was supposed to be the pinnacle of human strength & intelligence, was a HUGE DEAL.

...and 50 years later, when we've supposedly made so much progress, it got totally erased.

martinipie

@Miss Maszkerádi royaljunk and Daisy Razor have basically explained my feels. And while there are comments about it, most are either under-replied-to or are being dismissed in the ways you are also doing here.

ETA, yes, I was also disappointed Nicole didn't really bring it up...

Miss Maszkerádi

@Daisy Razor *shrug* okay. I'm getting in a million kinds of hot water in this thread and probably coming across as a racist troglodyte, so I'm just going to stop talking.

I kind of wonder how many people would be freaking out that the villain had been specifically written as a person of color, though, if a brown actor were actually playing Khan. So basically the entire world is problematic and there are things wrong with everything.

Miss Maszkerádi

@martinipie I wasn't really setting out to dismiss anything or anybody's opinion, I was just trying to have a conversation and I ended up wandering down some foot-in-mouth trains of thought. I apologize for everything I have said in this thread. I really didn't intend to get so involved in the topic.

yeah-elle

@Miss Maszkerádi Actually, I think it's great to have a villain-of-color, as long as said villain isn't a brute/thug stereotype. I read some speculation about this before the season finale of Elementary, where people were hoping Moriarty would be a character of color. I don't know if you watch the show, but there was a brief moment where it was thought that a black man might have been Moriarty (he ended up being a lieutenant) and people got so excited! It's because Moriarty, like Khan, isn't a bad-POC stereotype: idiot thug, a druglord, a God-obsessed terrorist, etc. They are equals--even betters in some regards--of the white male leads, and they have great storylines where they go toe-to-toe. They have power in intelligence, in wit, in physical agility that is not just brute power. Especially since these villains are not seen as Pure Evil types, but have interesting moral landscapes, too, they are really great, interesting characters that I'm sure plenty actors of color would love to take on.

Interim

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