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Monday, March 18, 2013

328

The New SAHM

When Kelly Makino was a little girl, she loved to go orienteering — to explore the wilderness near her rural Pennsylvania home, finding her way back with a compass and a map — and the future she imagined for herself was equally adventuresome. Until she was about 16, she wanted to be a CIA operative, a spy, she says, "like La Femme Nikita." She put herself through college at Georgia State working in bars and slinging burgers, planning that with her degree in social work, she would—

But guess what? Hm, hard to say.

The latest New York magazine cover story, if you're interested, is "The Retro Wife."

328 Comments / Post A Comment

parallel-lines

I've been resisting commenting on that article, but the lady is wearing wacky leggings and has Bettie Page bangs: she is OBVIOUSLY a feminist, amirite? So modern! Women are just made to stay home, why are we fighting it?

There are plenty of SAHMs doing good, hard work and they chose this fifties housewife on crack to speak for them all? Good work, NYMag. The creepiest part is the planned massage nights. I mean, I like my husband just fine but criminy.

TheJacqueline

@parallel-lines I loathe this article. We've seen it done before, and we've seen it done much better than this.

People should do whatever works best for them - have kids, don't have them, stay home, don't stay home - but let's not pretend that there is a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone. And let's not pretend that "women are just BETTER at this than men" is some evolutionary trait rather than centuries of internalized sexism.

Makino is totally free to celebrate her choice. I'd just like to celebrate the fact that she has one at all.

iceberg

@TheJacqueline Oh my god fuck everyone involved with this article seriously.

Shara

@TheJacqueline Yes, thank you. Seriously. Everyone should go read the Jessica Valenti 'Why have kids?' book right now. Your comment basically summarizes the thesis of that brilliant book.

heyladies

@parallel-lines As a mother of 2 who works full time and is married to a husband who teaches 4th grade I take issue with everything in this (actually I couldn't get beyond the first page because I have no desire to know anything more about this woman's positions). If this is a movement, fuck this movement.

parallel-lines

@heyladies You should just quit your job so you can sit around pinteresting your husband's favorite recipes and plan a massage night for him. But just make sure the house isn't too clean, it's more feminist that way.

@parallel-lines I was all on board to be all "yeah! feminism! staying at home is hard-ass labor and should be written about!" And then I read the weird therapeutic massage (WTF, is this woman licensed?) and wanted to vom my face off.

MAKE THIS AWFUL DRIVEL STOP. "I'm a die hard feminist, but women make better caregivers!" Fuck that. How girls play with toys should not be used as an argument to further any agenda of adult women.

heyladies

@heyladies I will also add that I have a friend who is a mom of 3 and had to stay home for a couple years and is now returning to work and is THRILLED. and every mom I know who stays home keeps her mind happy with other work and outlets of some form. Not by serving her husband.

Pipi Longstocking

@parallel-lines So I totally agree with all of your comments - the first page was gag inducing - but the rest of the article actually had some interesting points and was less polarizing, more "this is a tough question that should be looked at from all angles and talked about because it is serious and matters right now".

Ophelia

BRB, banging my head against the wall.

PatatasBravas

@Pipi Longstocking If they wanted me to read past the first page, they should have written a first page worth fucking reading.

Also I loathe the silly Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 display. Just let it all be visible on the first page! Clicking forever is annoying.

Jinxie

@PatatasBravas AGREED. I was already super annoyed after the first page, but I was going to keep reading until I saw that there were 6 additional individual pages.

TARDIStime

@PatatasBravas It generates more page views, though. It's why they do it. :(
It annoys me too.

wharrgarbl

@TARDIStime If the site has a "print article" option, that usually displays it as one page and strips out all the ads and pop-ups and links to other articles. (It usually also demonstrates that the article is soul-killingly long, thus deadening your interest before you get past the first paragraph or two.)

Mrs. Beeton

Uh...huh.

Cawendaw

@Gallon Jug Nmmm.

mustelid

Feminism is about all women making whatever choices they want! As long as they choice involves having children because ALL WOMEN HAVE A MATERNAL INSTINCT, IT'S JUST FACTS

parallel-lines

@mustelid And every act is inherently a feminist one just because a lady chose to do it!

PatatasBravas

@parallel-lines A NOSE PIERCING AND CONVERSE DO NOT MAKE THE "WOMEN ARE LIKE THIS, MEN ARE LIKE THIS" COMMENT LESS OFFENSIVE

ugh I can't bear to read past the first page, this article is irredeemable garbage, DONE

but I will read everyone else's smart comments if they leave them here :)

charmcity

@parallel-lines And then when anyone, anywhere disagrees with a choice a woman makes, they have a legitimate counterargument against feminism!

RNL
RNL

@mustelid BAZING.

The fact that your choice is possible because of feminism does not mean that it is necessarily a feminist choice. Conflation! You are doing it right.

LaLoba

@mustelid *fax

Sydney C

It is fucking amazing the lengths people will go to protect the status quo and convince women that they had it better back before Betty Friedan. They (THEY) can write as many trend articles as they want on how it's hip to have babies young, become a housewife, and acknowledge that "feminism has fizzled" and I still won't listen. They can keep polishing that old, antiquated turd all they want- it's still a turd and I'm not buying it!

iceberg

"They would live off his low-six-figure income"

Fuuuuuck youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

Sorry guys I am feelin' a bit bitter today!

MmeLibrarian

@iceberg Jinx.

iceberg

@iceberg "Feminism has fizzled, its promise only half-fulfilled."
GRRRRAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH WHAT

dj pomegranate

@iceberg That's where I closed the window, took a deep breath, did other things, and came back to resume reading after an hour. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE.

Count Chocula

@iceberg Yeah.... I stopped reading after the "low-six-figure" business :-(

MmeLibrarian

@iceberg No, see, it's a problem because some ladies are still sad! And Gloria Steinem didn't singlehandedly fix everything that's wrong with western culture in five years. So failure. Now who wants to learn how to make an angel food cake?

rallisaurus

@iceberg I would like a budget that is "tightened" by being at a measly low 6 figures.

Ellie

Regardless of what literally anyone thinks about stay-at-home-parenting or about feminism, this article is written in the most provocative way imaginable. It's really irritating to encounter journalism of that nature. This isn't necessarily a subject that you can't write about, but you can't make any meaningful contribution when you don't provide a neutral and balanced account of it.

Megasus

@iceberg Nope, that's as far as I got too. "Low six figure income..." DIE IN A FIRE!!!!!

olivia

@iceberg The "feminism has fizzled" is where I closed the window. NO, NO IT HAS NOT. #fuckoff

MmeLibrarian

Oh! Oh, the struggle of living on one six-figure income!

...erm. Congratulations. How wonderful.

Tuna Surprise

@MmeLibrarian
That time machine back to the 50s doesn't come cheap.

mooseketeer

This article was specifically written just to bug me. Not only is it using one woman's life justifications to make broad generalizations about all womanhood (obviously we're more caring!!!), but it draws the worst conclusion in history. The reason why we say one thing and do another, isn't because there are eons of socialization leading us to do that thing, it's because we really WANT to do it and have been lying to ourselves. Do what I do, not what I say.

SuperGogo

@mooseketeer Hey, guess what? The Atlantic quoted you!
http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/the-complex-often-idealistic-reasons-feminists-become-housewives/274184/

mooseketeer

@SuperGogo my god I'm famous!

Gulfie

"Reading The Feminine Mystique now, one is struck by the white-hot flame of Betty Friedan’s professional hunger, which made her into a prophet and a pioneer. But it blinded her as well: She presumed that all her suburban-housewife sisters felt as imprisoned as she did and that the gratification she found in her work was attainable for all. That was never true, of course; the revolution that Friedan helped to spark both liberated women and allowed countless numbers of them to experience financial pressure and the profound dissatisfactions of the workaday grind."

Work is awful, ladies. We'll save you!

MilesofMountains

@Gulf of Finland And housewives never experience "financial pressure"! Those dustbowl ladies in the 30's never worried their pretty little heads about money since they weren't allowed to earn it.

dj pomegranate

@Gulf of Finland Also, finances, ugh! Leave that to the menfolk!

Gulfie

@MilesofMountains And what could stay at home motherdom bring besides deep, profound satisfaction? Poor Betty Friedan; she felt so ambitious that she had to make up all of those stories about women who weren't fulfilled by being at home. Ambition outside the home makes you a liar!

H.E. Ladypants

@Gulf of Finland Part of what SERIOUSLY annoys me is this presumption that the sort of suburban-idealized-shelteredness is what domestic work has consisted of forever.

It has not. Most of my forebears were ranch and farm women and I don't think anyone DARED to suggest that they didn't work or that their existences were sheltered from the realities of life.

TheBourneApproximation

@Gulf of Finland

If all these 1950s housewives were so happy, why the fuck did second wave feminism happen?

Judith Slutler

@Gulf of Finland All women in the world used to be upper or middle class, able-bodied, straight, fertile white housewives. You didn't know?

@Emmanuelle Cunt Especially women of color and women with low-income families, who have historically worked outside of the home. To, you know, make ends meet.

RubeksCube

@Gulf of Finland FLAMES. On the side of my face...FLAMES.

Lily Rowan

BUT CAN SHE HAVE IT ALL?????????

Not on six figures, amirite ladies?

cminor

@Lily Rowan I audibly scoffed at the article, and snorted (with laughter) at this.

Lily Rowan

@cminor My secret is not clicking through to the article at all!

itiresias

@Lily Rowan You would have LEARNED if you did. "Her sacrifice of a salary tightened the Makinos’ upper-middle-class budget, but the subversion of her personal drive pays them back in ways Kelly believes are priceless."

Lily Rowan

@itiresias I am sticking my fingers in my ears and going LA LA LA LA at you!

City_Dater

@itiresias

"Subversion of her personal drive" = "she starts drinking at lunch."

adorable-eggplant

@City_Dater Ahaha. Oh dear. Yes.

Ophelia

@itiresias Jesus Christ.

DrFeelGood

@Lily Rowan I need at least a low seven figs to keep me going.

lucy snowe

Okay, I haven't finished reading the article, but I just need to comment on this bit before I can move on:
//Last year, sociologists at the University of Washington found that the less cooking, cleaning, and laundry a married man does, the more frequently he gets laid.//

I keep seeing this stupid study being cited as though it means something. Correlation is not causation, dudes. I mean, did they even consider the possibility that the men who are doing their part with the housework might simply have lower testosterone levels, or just aren't looking to get laid as much?

RRrrrr. This sort of sloppy "Hey, science is proving things we like to think anyway!" bullshit really pisses me off.

dj pomegranate

@lucy snowe OR that the men who deem cooking and cleaning "women's work" also feel like they SINCE THEY ARE THE MANLY MEN get to decide when it's sexytimes, whether or not the woman feels like it?

So many possibilities, so poorly articulated.

lucy snowe

@dj pomegranate Yes! Exactly.

Or maybe people who do a lot of chores are just too tired for sex, regardless of sex.

Sex.

lucy snowe

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll It does. Thanks for the link.

j-i-a

Guys, I think this article brought up some really new and provocative ideas--I actually wrote a follow-up piece that I hope you'll consider checking out here

PatatasBravas

@j-i-a Perfection.

damselfish

@j-i-a Flawless

Judith Slutler

@j-i-a your blog name

!!!!!!!!

Miss Maszkerádi

Look, I'm overeducated, defiantly independent, hoping to get a PhD, I've done sports and arts and all sorts of girl power stuff. If I ever find a man willing to marry me and I decide to have a family and stay at home with my child/ren when they are little, am I going to get the "oh so sad she's wasting her life now" reaction from my feminist sisters?

I mean I've been having one of those depressing weeks of three engagements on Facebook per day and I finally noticed that MY reaction to seeing a smart woman get engaged is one of disappointment and a sort of "lost another one" betrayal.....and, like, that's fucked up, guys.

iceberg

@Countess Maritza Not at all! That's your choice, if you want to. Generations before didn't have a choice, that's why feminism is awesome.

highfivesforall

@Countess Maritza The problem with this article is not that this woman has not decided to pursue the dreams she had when she was younger - it's lines like this: "Meanwhile, what was once feminist blasphemy is now conventional wisdom: Generally speaking, mothers instinctively want to devote themselves to home more than fathers do. (Even Sandberg admits it. 'Are there characteristics inherent in sex differences that make women more nurturing and men more assertive?' she asks. 'Quite possibly.')"

Angry Panda

@Countess Maritza I think the reaction here is to the tone of "All women ever really need is to produce babies and have a man take care of them, anyone who claims differently is lying to themselves" in the article. And also the fact that they claim feminism failed, when really it is society that has failed if the goals of feminism haven't been achieved. Not to mention how they completely ignore the fact that families with less than six figure incomes probably don't have the luxury of making the choice the women in the article made.

hallelujah

@Countess Maritza I mean, if you start using your own personal feelings and experiences to put forward vast generalities about why women are just "better suited" to take care of the kids, then yeah, you probably will. As you should, because that shit's fucked up.

Miss Maszkerádi

@everybody I haven't read the article yet, the comments just touched a nerve that's been firing like crazy all week anyway. Pardon the thread jack.

Count Chocula

@Angry Panda Right, the "anyone who claims differently is lying to themselves" attitude (from either side) is what I find really unpleasant.

melis

@Countess Maritza No, that's fine! I think part of what's frustrating about this is that, let's say, you have three kids, each spaced a few years apart (presumably fairly average for most straight couples?). At some point, those kids will grow up. Counting the years between your first pregnancy and the time the last child enters high school, that's maybe what, 15 to 20 years of your life. So even if you're a completely dedicated stay-at-home parent, it's only going to be about a quarter to a third of your life that you spend raising children, but it's often talked about as if it's the last and most important thing a woman can do.

It's great if someone has the time and resources and inclination to parent full-time, but unless you have ten or more children (which most people don't do), it's still not going to occupy the majority of your life. Stay-at-home mothers don't just shut down and rest their giant Elephant Man heads and peacefully die once their kids are grown.

parallel-lines

@Countess Maritza wait....you're angry about something that you didn't even take the time to read?

Ok.

damselfish

@Countess Maritza That depends-- ARE you wasting your life? I know women who've become SAHMs because they had to give up on what they wanted to do for the good of the family (their husbands didn't for various reasons-- he made more money, it was unthinkable that he stay home, etc). Which isn't my friends are wasting their lives, it's that society has thrown their hopes and dreams away. And sometimes you have to compromise with reality but it's always the women doing the compromising.

On the other hand, I know a few awesome ladies who wouldn't have had such great writing careers if they had to work a 9-5 so their got to see their dream's potential and were SAHMs. So.

hands_down

@melis "Stay-at-home mothers don't just shut down and rest their giant Elephant Man heads and peacefully die once their kids are grown." But if they do, we should celebrate their choice, right?

Thanks for the lol, though. I needed that.

H.E. Ladypants

@melis For realsies. My stayed home when we were young kids but when people ask me what she did I say "she was an English professor." Because, you know, that took up a lot more time professionally.

Miss Maszkerádi

@parallel-lines Nope. Not angry. Commenting on comments and rambling off-topic. Sorry I fucked up here again.

Miss Maszkerádi

@damselfish Actually I spend all day, every day, paralyzed with terror and guilt that I'm wasting my life, so probably.

Maryaed

@Countess Maritza No, but you ought to know that it is a financial risk to decide that someone else is going to be in charge of the money-getting, and that if you decide that your role in life is to be a domestic producer, you might very likely find yourself having to start over at some point.

And even if you don't end up divorced or widowed, sure, it all seems very choice-y but I have to say very few couples I know think it would be all hunky dory if the man said "I don't find paid work very fulfilling. I think I am going to cut down to half time so I can be home after school and be more involved in Boy Scouts." They might start out with that assumption, when both people make more or less the same, but after five years of career differentiation, when the woman has never made more than 40K and the man is making 80K? It seems remarkably non-negotiable. So there you are, kind of stuck, with the best will in the world.

And then if you're me you hear your feminist friends saying angry things about how their husbands are not making ENOUGH MONEY and you get kind of depressed.

Maryaed

@Maryaed Or, perhaps, you end up working in an office where the assumption of what a working day is depends on the fact that almost every man in the office is either single, or has a wife at home who can handle most to all of the domestic emergencies, so he can arrive early or stay late most days. And you realize that almost every woman who has a husband and children. . . cannot have that deal, because even men who are making less don't readily have that job flexibility. Because they didn't choose a career you could just flex a lot and have everyone understand, because unlike many women they didn't grow up expecting that when they began having a family they'd need the flex. So they picked careers, mostly, based on the expectation that they'd make the most money. And guess what the expectations for their working days are based on? See above.

So your individual choice may have nothing at all to do with your being not a feminist, but the sheer masses of women making the same assumption that they can lighten up on the moneymaking, because they're likely to be able to relax about it altogether at some point, adds up to what we have now, which is an economy where being a woman who wants to hold a job with career potential and also raise children without worrying about being called an absentee parent or a crappy employee is called "having it all," and being a man who wants the same is called "being a married guy with a job."

Bittersweet

@Countess Maritza Here, come sit by me. Have a drink. You aren't fucking anything up. We love you, and wish you all the best in life.

whimseywisp

@Maryaed THIS. THANK YOU.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

Earlier today, I was feeling depressed about plummeting magazine subscription rates (what am I going to read on the train in 2015? etc.), but at least there would be an upside in that I wouldn't have to see things like this anymore.

theotherginger

@Rock and Roll Ken Doll I heart this comment, but it also made me more anxious about the future. like, will there only be airport books and no more new yorker in the airport?

Angry Panda

I couldn't read it past the first page. There are so many things wrong with that article I don't even know where to begin. I want to set the world on fire today.
Edit: Also, I have friends who talk exactly like this. I need new friends.

Daisy Razor

@Angry Panda Can we start with the fact that she thought spy work was like "La Femme Nikita"? Because that is HILARIOUS.

I wanted to be a farmer so I could talk to dead baseball players, like "Field of Dreams."

yrouttasight

God, there's 7 pages of this crap?

frigwiggin

@yrouttasight Haha, I just said the same thing before I saw your comment. Seriously.

themegnapkin

"She prefers to see herself as reaching beyond conventional ideas about what women should do. 'I feel like we are evolving into something that is not defined by those who came before us,' she says. By making domesticity her career, she and the other stay-at-home mothers she knows are standing up for values, such as patience, and kindness, and respectful attention to the needs of others, that have little currency in the world of work."
How is what she is doing at all different from what SAHM do? How is it "reaching beyond conventional ideas of what women should do," to do exactly what conventional ideas of what women should do, say what you should do?

Chills

@themegnapkin As far as I could tell it was something to do with her nose piercing?!

heyladies

@Chills don't forget the Converse sneakers!

dj pomegranate

"Why can’t we just be girls? Why do we have to be boys and girls at the same time?"

This one in particular really grinds my gears. NO ONE IS SAYING THIS.

You know what would be really great? Is if we could all be OURSELVES, no matter what our sex/gender!

hallelujah

@dj pomegranate FLAMES. ON THE SIDE OF MY FACE.

TheBourneApproximation

@dj pomegranate Time to break this one out again:

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

FlufferNutter

@dj pomegranate Seriously. I think a better title for this article would have been "Buying into the Binary". Someone needs to sign that lady up for Women and Gender Studies 101 STAT.

leonstj

@dj pomegranate - Girls will be boys & boys will be girls, it's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world.

dee
dee

@dj pomegranate Also what makes it even way worse is the context immediately before that! "“I feel like in today’s society, women who don’t work are bucking the convention we were raised with . . . Why can’t we just be girls?" So *working* = "being a boy," I guess?!?

Also note the ridiculous infantilizing language. Girls and boys generally do not have jobs (or have widdle babies, for that matter). Women and men do.

hallelujah

But...I work and my husband stays home with the baby and keeps house. Where is our magazine profile extrapolating our very specific circumstances onto the entirety of the human race???

PatatasBravas

@hallelujah hahaha you blessed soul, you missed all the panicked Slate articles from like three years ago?

Is Dad the New Mom?

Are Stay-at-Home Dads Less Manly?

Being a Stay-at-Home Dad Can Make Me Feel Like a Petulant 10-Year-Old: relying on your wife for financial support isn't emasculating, but it can be infantilizing sometimes

When Is A Man Not A Man? when he's a manny

Stay-at-home-dads: do their testicles retreat into their body cavities?

some of those are real articles, lolsob

hallelujah

@PatatasBravas D:

melis

"Nobody knows what it means, but it's provocative."

"No, it's not, it's gross -"

"It gets the people going!"

Nicole Cliffe

MELIS AND I WATCHED BLADES OF GLORY LAST NIGHT INSTEAD OF ME LOOKING AFTER MAH MAN AND MAH BABY

melis

@Nicole Cliffe Blades of Glory really holds up! Also, I want to try that bacon trick for lunch today.

Reginal T. Squirge

"Yeah, mind-bottling. You know, when things are so crazy it gets your thoughts all trapped, like in a bottle?"

Ophelia

@melis ...bacon trick?

melis

@Ophelia Oh we were talking about it this morning and then gave it a whirl for lunch. I was too lazy to find my phone and Nicole was upstairs and I was downstairs, so I communicated my lunch plans with her via Hairpin comment.

Nicole Cliffe

@melis Like heaven, my house has many rooms, and I have gone before you to prepare a place (for my mom) to make you lunch.

trappedinabay

@melis I want to know this bacon trick! I like bacon! I like tricks!

H.E. Ladypants

Jesus tits, I couldn't make it past the front page. "Couple with Sufficiently High Income Allows Parent to Stay Home as Primary Caretaker While Children are Young" is not news. It is not a trend. For many people, it is the dream. For other people it is actually the more fiscally responsible option. Guess what! HUMANS AND SITUATIONS VARY WILDLY.

And man, screw this predestined ladies-want-to-be mommies crap. Why can't we just acknowledge that domestic labor IS socially/economically important work and not shove a bunch of gender-determinism on to it?

leonstj

This whole thing is insane. Anna North had a nice piece today on how it's ridiculous, because so much of our debate around this ignores the fact that women choosing to stay home is usually not a feminist "choice" move - an overwhelming number of "Stay-At-Home Moms" are not capable of making enough income on the job market to offset the cost of daycare for their kids.

Which is fucking horrible, because not only does it mean a huge amount of staying at home isn't a choice (which it should be! I'm all for it being a viable choice ladies don't get shit for when they chose to do!) but it's actually a symptom of how shitty we are doing at creating equal career opportunities for women.

It's so enraging. I take the whole thing really personal (ETA: really personal for a dude who frequently benefits from sexism) cuz my mom was a stay at home mom who thought that's what she wanted, but I think just thought that because of outside pressures / society. Once me & my sister were raised, she went back to school, moved out on her own, and now pursues a writing career of her own, which is awesome.

But there's still this thing that breaks my fucking heart. We were just talking the other day, and she was saying how she had a hard time fitting in w/ her writing friends, because they're all writers first, but she feels that for her it's an additional thing, and she's a mother who writes.

And...I think that's terrible. She was a great mother, but me & my sister are 27 & 30. Our relationship with her is easy for all involved - we're fully independent & relatively well-adjusted, now we just get to talk & hang out & enjoy company.

I know people say the primacy of having kids makes it the most important thing in one's life in a way nothing else will be, and I'm not saying "being a mom" should be more important, internally, to my mother as an individual, than anything else she's done is - raising kids is the weirdest, most alien and simultaneously most important thing a person can ever do.

But to me, feminism is about allowing a world in which that becomes an internal/individual thing. When she sits on her couch and assesses life, I'd be happy for my ma to call motherhood her greatest / most significant part of life - I'm honored by it, and tearing up now just thinking she would say that.

But it's fucking absurd and infuriating that she would ever feel like, externally, out in the world, other people just meeting her or getting to know her would put her mothering as more central to who she is than the work she is doing now. The fact that she even feels these pressures that I as a dude will never know...it's just...it doesn't even make sense to me?

Maybe it's just the 'irish'-catholic blue-collar boy I was raised as boiling up inside of me, but as much as the intellectual part of me is a feminist because feminism is just right, the first and always biggest reason is that non-feminists are fucking shit up for my mother, and that makes me want to catch those pricks in a dark alley.

leonstj

@leon s Haha that is rant-y & insane. Also, I'm not actually advocating catching sexists in a dark alley and beating them up. A lot of the patriarchy is physically stronger than me, so it's not really a viable option.

parallel-lines

@leon s Why don't these women ever talk about how fucked they would be if their husband left them? I mean, you have a pretty sweet set up, but god forbid your husband passed away or left you for another person? Child support is nice but usually not enough to get by and you are now back in the job market with a stale resume.

I remember Jessica Valenti talking about how self centered raising children has become--it used to be that parents fought to improve a local public school so everyone in the area would benefit, now they send their kids to private school. This feels a lot like that--choice is choice, but rather than pushing for reform from within the system you opted out. It's personal at the end of the day but let's not pretend it's a revolutionary choice.

themegnapkin

@parallel-lines blerg. . . and when they get divorced after ~20 years of marriage, the husband doesn't want to split "his money" with the woman who raised his kids and made his meals and did his laundry, or pay alimony to compensate her for having given up her own ambitions in order to support his.
This has happened to enough people I know that it makes me so nervous for my friends of my generation who are now choosing to stay at home after having kids. Staying at home works out wonderfully for a lot of people (and should be a choice!), but when it goes wrong, it can go spectacularly and bitterly wrong.

City_Dater

@parallel-lines

Yes, yes, all this yeses to this. I despise the self-sabotage and selfishness of "I have to stay home because my salary won't even cover day care" when it ought to be "I'm agitating for federally funded day care for ALL children. Because we need this, whether my family can afford to get by on one salary or not."

cherrispryte

@leon s You are now my go-to excuse the next time I get caught beating up sexists in dark alleys.

Poubelle

@City_Dater Okay, but what do you do with the infant in the meantime? Why does it have to be (relatively new) moms fighting for this, and not the rest of us?

Calling it "self-sabotage" and "selfishness" is just blaming the victim in a lot of cases.

City_Dater

@Poubelle

The point is having the ability to stay home or pay for private school doesn't "fix" things for the whole community and EVERYONE should be fighting for good schools, federally funded day care, etc. A woman who turns her self-denial into a virtue everyone should be pursuing, like the twit in this article, rather than acknowledging her anti-feminist choice is a luxury that makes it harder for the women who don't have the option, is a jerk.

Poubelle

@City_Dater But that twit in the article is far, far from representative of parents who stay home. Especially the ones who stay home because their salaries won't cover day care--since plenty of their spouses aren't earning six figures.

And again--"fixing" things takes time, a long time, and kids need care/education RIGHT NOW. I don't blame parents for going with what works and refusing to sacrifice their kids' needs to the needs of progress. There are some thing that it's more than okay to be selfish about, especially when you don't have the same advantages as others.

MissMushkila

@leon s My grandmother had seven kids with her husband, who then bought an anullment from the Catholic church. And then my grandma had to raise 7 kids all alone on a nurse salary.

As a result of this upbringing, my mother has made it eminently clear that I am expected to always work. Which is hard, because I actually think work/life balance is super shitty in this country and kids do deserve time with their parents. My parents solved it by my dad working nights as a mechanic while my mom worked days. They just didn't see each other for 7 years until my sister and I were in school.

Which sounds horrible? I want to have kids someday, but I feel like the examples I've learned from my family are 1) stay at home but face possible financial ruin if anything happens or 2) everyone work all the time and never see each other. There has got to be something better than this!

themegnapkin

@MissMushkila how do you get the Catholic church to grant an anullment after 7 kids!!!

Poubelle

@themegnapkin Miracles are all around! Especially when there's money involved.

Urwelt

@leon s The Anna North article, in case anyone is interested. Some very revealing charts.

heroicdestinysquad

@themegnapkin Eh. My mom has managed 2 annulments and each marriage resulted in a kid. The Catholic Church sort of plays fast and loose with the deleting marriage trick.

MilesofMountains

@themegnapkin My grandparents managed it after two kids. My grandmother always knew about his estranged first wife back in "the old country", but it made a good excuse when she wanted an anullment.

de Pizan

@MissMushkila My dad died when I was in high school. My mom had only been to 1 semester of college; hadn't worked in 24 years since the first year of her marriage; and had 8 kids, 5 of them still living at home, the other 3 in college. The only job she was able to get was playing piano for the high school choir...where she started out at $15,000 a year. The only way we weren't absolutely screwed was due to my dad's life insurance and retirement funds.

sevanetta

@parallel-lines Just jumping in here to say thank Goddddd for the hairpin and all you wonderful people calling this out for the utter bullshit that it is. Including not being able to get past the first page of the article. I just had too much rage.

frigwiggin

Seven pages? Of this drivel?

itiresias

@frigwiggin I have no idea what it's from, and I don't even like the people I've heard say it, but coming to mind is: ain't nobody got time for that.

MoxyCrimeFighter

@itiresias It's from this! And then there are various Autotune remixes.

Ialdagorth

"They would live off his low-six-figure income"

Congratulations, how wonderful.

Ialdagorth

@Ialdagorth In my quiet seething rage I did not see someone had already basically posted this exact comment but. I SECOND IT, I GUESS.

dj pomegranate

"A number of those I spoke to for this article reminded me of a 2010 British study showing that men lack the same mental bandwidth for multitasking as women."

Finally we know what to blame for the downfall of the feminist dream!

Ellie

Only semi-relatedly, most studies show that nobody is really good at multitasking. Literal "multitasking" is impossible. You can only focus on one thing at a time and in general you become less efficient when you move your attention from thing to thing rapidly instead of remaining at one task for longer.

MaxBraverman

How revolutionary.

sophia_h

Blahhhh. Only got to the first page, like everyone else. I'm a default housewife right now just because I'm between contract projects, but it's really boring and my husband still does all the cooking because he's better at it and enjoys it more. He also has less earning power than I do, and we recently agreed that if I make the transition to steady work post-baby we'd both be happier if he quit his mediocre-paying job and just stayed home. Granted, I may have the influx of crazy hormones that make me want to be home every second with the kid, but right now the idea of working all day and coming home to dinner, a decently-clean house, and a baby I didn't have to care for alllll day sounds like THE MOTHERFUCKING DREAM.

iceberg

@sophia_h right? IF we could afford it (spoiler alert: we can't), Mr. Iceberg is eminently more suited to staying at home with the Bergy Bits. Unfortunately for that dream, he also earns almost twice as much as I do.

hallelujah

@iceberg Yeah, my husband is way more domestic. Thank god (for me, mostly, because I am the opposite of suited to be a SAHM), he's finishing school and I'm gainfully employed so he's the one at home. Not that I don't love the baby blah blah disclaimer blah, it's just not my jam.

leonstj

@sophia_h @iceberg - It delights me to hear women say this. I don't think I want kids, but I could see my mind possibly being changed one day - and I feel like, if I did have them, I would TOTALLY want to be the one who stayed at home.

I mean, I wouldn't fight over it if my wife really wanted to (I feel like the whole pregnancy/labor process would give her the tie-breaking vote here) but I do think little kids are awesome even when they are being infuriating little jerks, and I don't really care one way or the other about my career - it's just a means to an end, for me. I tend to be attracted to extremely career-driven women who are passionate about what they do, so I could definitely see stay-at-home-dad as a potential route for me.

I love ya'll for being open to non-traditional ideas. As much as, as a man, the pressures I face are a lot less than women, patriarchy limits options for EVERYONE in a way that's a huge bummer.

tl;dr: If ya get sick of your menfolk, call me.

parallel-lines

@iceberg That totally makes sense--and this lady, I can see how she might want to leave her job. I mean, it sounds possibly fufilling but also very draining? So why not just say that--I left my job because I could and that's working out fine. No need to bring all this gender bullshit and throw it around.

sophia_h

@leon s I have to acknowledge that at least part of my husband's willingness stems from the fact that what he really wants to do is write, so I keep saying "don't think you're going to get to be a full-time author with a baby in the house!", and also neither of us really knows what it's like to be a stay at home parent versus just being the homemaker, but if we can make it work it sounds like a pretty good deal for both of us temperament-wise and it would be damn nice if everyone could divide up family work that way (and more men were raised to find value in home stuff as well as job achievements).

hands_down

@iceberg Co-sign this. I like going to work, and my husband would be a much better stay-at-home parent then me. Unfortunately, his job as the potential to earn big bucks and mine does not. So, until we win the lottery...

leonstj

@sophia_h - Oh I don't want to stay at home to write or make art or anything.

I just like listening to music, reading childrens books out loud, debating the merits of the landmark case of "Because I Said So" v. "But I Don't Wanna" with 2 foot tall wanna-be tyrants, slow-cooked food, and attempting to make my living space look nice while tiny people try to thwart my efforts.

Ellie

Me too! I have this innate revulsion toward babies (like, to the extent that it's been suggested to me that I seek therapy before having kids, which I would probably do) and I would like my potential future husband to look after them until they can talk, at which point I can take them to museums and tell them how general relativity works and stuff like that. I mean, even without the humorous exaggeration that seems like a pretty sweet setup.

cminor

@leon s If you make good on this (and I think you're capable), everylady will want your progeny.

Ophelia

@leon s What's your daily rate?

sevanetta

@leon s it's great that you would consider doing that! my boyfriend is oddly similar - he worries about having kids but if we have them, he says he thought from a young age that he would enjoy being a househusband and be good at it. he certainly is better at cooking and housework than I am. which is brilliant, because I always wanted to have a househusband. in conclusion, go leon.

hedgehogerie

"Kelly...devoted to his cuteness, surprises him regularly with new items..." ....on their 6-figure salary.

BARF. SO MUCH BARF.

many things do not fly

@Katie Seriously. This is where I stopped reading. She is devoted to her husband's 'cuteness'?

Beaker

@Katie Just think, if they didn't have to "tighten" their budget on that measly six figures, he would be even cuter!

parallel-lines

@Katie Is she married to a grown ass man or just raising another child (who happens to make a lot of money). This sounds so infantalizing--and just creepy. Let the man pick his own clothes!

Miss Maszkerádi

Can we have an article about something or someone cool next time? I'm afraid the Pin is starting to slide in a vaguely Jezebely direction of "here's an article about someone to hate, comments open, go to town ladies!" This is my one bastion of hope for humanity on the Internet, please stay that way.

hallelujah

@Countess Maritza I mean, the articles preceding this one were about gemstones, funny poems, and Irish pet-snake-keeping, so I think you may be getting ahead of yourself a little.

iceberg

@Countess Maritza ahem

Miss Maszkerádi

@hallelujah fine, I'll show myself out again.

iceberg

@iceberg i know i know, not what you meant.

Gulfie

@Countess Maritza Know thine enemy.

iceberg

@Countess Maritza oh sweetheart please don't! I think she was just saying, maybe you're noticing those ones a little more because you're sensitive about it right now, but there is plenty of good stuff on here too!

sophia_h

@Countess Maritza Yeah, but the quality of comments here is much better than Jez, and there are fewer of them and they're not in Gawker's godawful format. These kinds of articles only scratch the surface of the bullshit that's out there -- much of which I personally am shielded from as a married straight white middle class woman -- so I'm very happy to have a place to discuss them.

datalass

@Countess Maritza Sadly, it's behind the pay wall, but the New Yorker interview with Ruth Bader Ginsburg is the PERFECT antidote to this awful piece. Spoilers: she has great kids who love her, her husband (a very eminent tax attorney) did all their cooking all the time, she once told a teacher that her ('lively') child had two parents and that the teacher should split the complaint calls between those two parents, she's a Supreme Court Justice, and she's awesome.

Miss Maszkerádi

@all Guys, I know the Pin is immensely better than Jez et all, that's why the recent slightly-more-than-usual amount of pile-ons alarmed me ever so slightly. I know, I know, I'm privileged, and white, and middle class, and don't know anything about real bullshit, I just saw a slight trend toward a style of website journalism that I've been finding immensely difficult to not get upset by on other sites, that is all. But clearly I am in no mental state to be commenting anywhere right now, so there's also that.

Ellie

@Countess Maritza I do see your point - I don't think there's all that much value in posts where the point of them seems to be "Let's express the same opinion we all share about this thing!"

Miss Maszkerádi

@Ellie And I should know better by now than to try to entertain myself by saying something contrarian, lighting a powder keg and running away cackling in glee, but I can't seem to stop. Mostly because I either have the hugest ego in the world or a complete and utter lack of one and I turn into a huge whining baby at the slightest sign of criticism. GAHHH.

hallelujah

@Ellie @Countess Martiza I find these posts immensely satisfying, actually. It's nice to have a safe, generally like-minded space to discuss stuff like this. Not everything on this site is my cup of tea, either, but I don't suggest it change to fit my personal taste. I also find it a bit rich to try and dictate to Edith what she should and shouldn't be posting, but that's just me.

Miss Maszkerádi

@hallelujah Well I was expressing an opinion, not trying to "dictate" anything. I suppose the internet, or perhaps this site, is simply not for me.

aphrabean

@Countess Maritza So you're. . . trolling? Right? This is the definition of trolling? (Powder keg, cackling, etc.) (I'm not mad, bro, just confused, and kind of old.)

Miss Maszkerádi

@aphrabean and everyone - I have realized that I am, in fact, little more than a troll on this site, and am rather ashamed of myself. I have asked for my account to be at least temporarily blocked, and I hope you can forgive me for being gratuitously rude and deliberately contrarian around here.

aphrabean

@Countess Maritza Hey, my first impulse is contrarian 90% of the time, so I really do get the appeal at times. (Learning to temper this impulse has been helpful in my own personal life, though I by no means have eliminated the impulse completely!) It sounds like you're maybe going through a time, so godspeed to you. I hope things even out for you.

iceberg

@aphrabean OK what is even going on here?

Ellie

@Countess Maritza I'm a contrarian too. I hate spring, GIFs, Married To The Sea (I really, REALLY hate Married To The Sea), babies, and wearing jeans.

aphrabean

@iceberg Well, I am not 100% sure of the larger context, but I was responding to Ms. Maritza's statement of "And I should know better by now than to try to entertain myself by saying something contrarian, lighting a powder keg and running away cackling in glee, but I can't seem to stop." And I am empathizing with that impulse while attempting to note that it has not always served me super well in my communications with others. But maybe I was not clear enough? Or maybe it came off as condescending. :(

iceberg

@aphrabean NO no, I wrote mine before you wrote that. But I loved what you wrote and I think this conversation could only happen here.

adorable-eggplant

@aphrabean Contrarian here too. I spent years not reading Barbara Kingsolver because my mom told me I might like her books. Now I'm reading Prodigal Summer and am loving it (surprising no one but myself). Mostly I'm happy to be contrary, but sometimes it's self-defeating, and it can be hard to tell the difference.

Best of luck, Countess. I usually enjoy reading your comments even when I don't agree.

aphrabean

@adorable-eggplant HAHAHA the list of things that people tell me I'd like, that I then refuse to try, only to later find that I LOVE. . . it's so long. It's so long! Someday I'll learn. I do think there can be a social and personal benefit in contrarianism, but yeah - learning to differentiate between what's useful and what's unhelpful can be tricky. I hope the Countess finds her way back here sometime! It's a valuable & rare place on the internet!

aphrabean

@iceberg <3 this place too! (Also I should not call people "bro" automatically.)

PatatasBravas

@Countess Maritza As a purely technological answer to your request ("I have asked for my account to be at least temporarily blocked") you might try:

-deleting your account and forming a new one when you're ready for it
-if you use Firefox, try Leechblock
-or if you use Chrome, try Nanny or StayFocused

Ellie

Is everyone just being super ironic or am I the crazy one to think that @Countess Maritza was, you know, joking?

adorable-eggplant

@Ellie You could be right? Failure to detect sarcasm is another one of my defining features.

aphrabean

@Ellie It's possible! I'm pretty intensely literal, in addition to being contrary, so a lot of the time I have no actual idea of what's going on. If she's joking, I guess I just didn't get it.

aphrabean

@adorable-eggplant Why, hello there! Do you also need jokes explained to you on a semi-regular basis? And when people laugh at your "jokes", is it often at something you said quite in earnest?

adorable-eggplant

@aphrabean YES! I just recently shared in the open thread my Francis/Frank Ocean confusion that resulted in lulz at my expense. I've finally gotten to the point of embracing being so literal minded. It's been somewhat of a blessing and a curse my whole life.

loren smith

@Ellie I hope so! I don't want to fly-by internet diagnose anyone, but reading her above and earlier comments, and some that I think I remember from other threads, I just hope girl is okay. @Countess Maritza, take care, the world/internet can be a tough.

aphrabean

@adorable-eggplant Hahaha! Yeah, I don't even really get embarrassed anymore. I think of it affectionately as "robot brain."

Miss Maszkerádi

@guys I was sort of being serious? I've had a really, really shit few weeks, am overreacting and being cripplingly self-loathing all the time, and taking everything way too personally. I also am aware that I am very uneducated and often simply wrong about things like feminism, so whenever I get smacked down or side-eyed I always deserve it, and yes, sometimes I guess I'm a troll. The difference between me and the average troll is I'm usually trying to start an argument as in a debate, I obsessively try to find the opposing point of view to whatever is dominant, express it and see what happens, but unlike 4chan type trolls I'm not actively trying to upset anybody or derail discussion for the lulz. I suppose a kind word for what I try to do would be provocateur, not troll.

But, you know, I'm also an oversensitive privileged 23 year old idiot who never knows when to keep her fat mouth shut, so troll is probably among the politer epithets that can be applied to me. Anyways, please let this convo die, I've now mortally embarrassed myself twice on here within one week.

Cawendaw

@Countess Maritza I'm sorry for not letting this conversation die, but I just read the whole thread and I can't navigate away without saying that I'm really sorry you're having a crappy few weeks. As a fellow passenger on the self-loathing express I hope you find your way off soon, although I'm familiar with how little other people's words are helpful so I guess this is kind of pointless? Anyway I enjoy your posts, I don't think you're being a troll, and if you decide you need to take a break that's fine, but I'll be waiting to thumbs up you when you come back.

Miss Maszkerádi

@Cawendaw Nah thanks for responding in the way you did. I'm okay, everything will be fine, it's just - ugh. I'm taking a break-like thing where I'm just not going to say anything remotely controversial for a while and let myself chill out.

Inkling

@iceberg
I just like how you said "NO no," like you're talking to one of the Bergy Bits while stopping them from licking the cat or something.

Springtime for Voldemort

@Countess Maritza Fwiw, I really enjoy your comments here, and hope your week gets a lot better. ((hugs))

Ellie

@Countess Maritza I don't really see anything you have to be embarrassed about or "take a break" from the Hairpin about? (I thought you were joking about being so provocative you would have to be temporarily banned, a joke I endorsed) I've definitely said "Fuck you" to people on here and meant it! I have the same devil's advocate tendency especially about feminism, and I am indeed somewhat irritated by the "We all think the same way about this" theme that you can sometimes observe on this site - not always but sometimes! I also think it's too bad that you feel compelled to reference your age or socioeconomic status or whatever to explain why you might have the "wrong" viewpoint on something.

Cawendaw

False dichotomy, anyone? "Makino, unlike all those working women who we didn't profile, loves her children and her family."

@Cawendaw You just know she loves her kids more! SACRIFICE.

par_parenthese

@Cawendaw "When did you stop beating your wife?"

VDRE

I've only read the first page so far but my gut response is "I'm never going to get married". I've read too many articles lately about how getting married helps mens careers and hurts womens careers and I just can't deal with it anymore.

Amphora

@VDRE Maybe it might if you have kids, but for me the only reason I was able to afford to go back to school and start a career in a field I liked was because my husband supported me financially.

VDRE

@Amphora That's a good point. The main argument that I've read (not in this article but in others) is that married couples are much more likely to move for the husband's career than for the wife's so many times when a woman is offered a job that she would have to move for, she doesn't if she's married and her husband already has a good job where they live. Obviously this doesn't always happen but that combined with the whole dropping-your-career-to-have-kids thing is just kind of making me feel sad.

The Hyperbolic Julia Set

@VDRE Definitely doesn't always happen! My husband and I relocated for my work. And we've been contemplating relocating again, and this time it would be because I want to go back to school. The husband really likes staying at home and/or jobs where he gets be really active and work with people which are generally like fast food jobs so he's cool to go where ever. So yeah no one article about one person's experience is final. If you're marrying someone *hopefully* it's because you generally have similar ideas on what you want your combined experience to be.

Inspector Tiger

I have decided for myself that this was written in the same spirit as that Soylent article.

This makes my feelings go away.

bluebears

Earlier in talking about this monstrosity of an article I was noting that I wished people would write about the difficulties that plague a marriage when one person (usually the woman) opts to be a SAHM(or dad). Because based on a lot of empiric evidence I've witnessed in the work force I've noticed men with SAHMs tend to exhibit just a little bit of resentment for their wives as well as seem to be lacking in respect for them in any area besides mothering. Obviously I'm no cultural anthropologist, but it's just something I've picked up on in my day to day life. But all you ever hear about from the media is the tension between other working women and SAHMs.

SusieQTPi

Basically, I think the point needs to be made very clear that no, you are not a feminist if you believe women are better than men at taking care of children/domestic chores. Some women are better than their husbands at it, and some husbands are better than their wives, but as soon as you start saying that women should do the domestic stuff cause they just have a natural affinity for it, is the point at which you're not a feminist anymore. Feminism emphatically DOES NOT mean treating men as if they are less capable in any sphere of life.

And no, that idiot who thinks she's just going to have a brilliant career when her kids grow up is deluding herself. She can pour herself into them now, but at some point, you have to live your own life again.

bluebears

@SusieQTPi I read that part. I mean, I hope she gets to have a fulfilled life once her kids become teenagers and basically don't want to have anything to do with her? And it's certainly possible. But another issue the article completely failed to address is how fucking difficult it is to re-enter the work force after a long absence.

sophia_h

@SusieQTPi She sort of touches on the truth by noting girls grow up playing with dolls, but the article (of course) does not expand on that or suggest that maybe, just MAYBE, men who are also raised or encouraged to be nurturing and caretaking might be good at that stuff too.

@sophia_h Or that the play habits of young children shouldn't be super relevant when talking about choices grown adults make about child-rearing.

hallelujah

@SusieQTPi PREACH. Gender essentialism = not compatible with feminism! Maybe, like, Sarah Palin's feminism, but not feminism in any real, meaningful sense.

par_parenthese

@SusieQTPi Seriously. Men are great. I do not appreciate it when people say that they as a gender are incompetent at, like, a fundamental part of being, namely, picking up after your damn self and making sure the next generation doesn't stick forks in the power socket.

@SusieQTPi THIS. THIS x 100.

Reginal T. Squirge

@SusieQTPi

Yeah, the point of progress isn't to just take whatever the oppressor has been doing and turn it around so now they are oppressed. The point is equality.

Miss Maszkerádi

@SusieQTPi Is there somewhere where a person can find the official rules for who is and who is not allowed to be a feminist, and the exact articles of faith of the feminist movement? Because I am super confused about whether I'm a feminist or not. Did I miss the Council?

I know this sounds snarky, I've just been having the most bullshit few weeks ever and am not in a mood to sound friendly, so apologies for all the people I'm pissing off on this thread, but this question is actually in earnest.

Poubelle

@S. Elizabeth Technically I played with dolls as a kid, but usually it was various Barbies being witches who waged war on the My Little Ponies. So I didn't really pick up on anything with regards to child-rearing, but I've got a lot of great ideas stored up should I decide to become fantasy writer.

I mean, do we expect every kid who plays with Legos or Tinkertoys or building blocks to grow up to be an architect? Does any chef say "it was all because my parents bought me a play kitchen back in the day"? And considering how popular horses/ponies are as toys for girls, how come nobody's talking about how that means they're going to grow up to be equestrians, or that girls are MEANT to work with horses?

stonefruit

@Countess Maritza I think I understand what you're getting at (frustration with ideological purity/litmus tests). At the same time, I also think feminism has to mean something, and the belief that women are inherently better than men/worse then men at xyz task purely because they are women is inconsistent with whatever that "something" is. I can't see a way that this sort of gender essentialism is compatible with the idea of feminism.

@Countess Maritza I think this comes down to "you can identify however you want, but when you claim you're XYZ, and then do something complete counter to it, there will be side-eyeing." You know what? I think feminism can encompass a lot of things, and women of all walks of life can claim feminist if they choose, so long as it fits within the framework of "what's in your pants doesn't determine your future."

But seriously, the minute you start saying things like "little girls play with dolls, and therefore will be better at , and so should do ," people are going to begin questioning your relationship with feminism, because that is some seriously reductive bullshit that has a whole lot to do with deciding that one's genitals should determine their future. I think it's especially controversial when you say it to the New York Magazine.

PatatasBravas

@S. Elizabeth You said it better, but!

A quick key:

Do you think being a SAHM is okay?
-yes, if it is what the woman in question wants! (feminist)
-IT IS THE ONLY OKAY OPTION, BECAUSE GENDER ESSENTIALISM (not feminist)
-no, she must wear a power-suit and be a literally ball-crushing exec (imaginary straw feminist)

Inkling

@Poubelle
"Cute boy you have there, he'll be a great gas station attendant or trucker one day!"
Yeah patriarchy you really wanna play that game? I'll play.

adorable-eggplant

@Inkling Man that kid there really likes playing with sticks. Looks like we've got a future stick collector on our hands, folks.

Inkling

@adorable-eggplant
I can tell he'll be a dedicated blogger, the way he is pissing on his own face and open mouth.

Springtime for Voldemort

@stonefruit I'm totally ok with people having to reject gender essentialism in order to have their feminist label validated by others. However, the vast majority of the time, when some woman doesn't identity as feminist, feminists explode with "but don't you think women should be equal with men? That's all feminism means!" Either feminism has a simplistic, bumper-sticker definition and Palin and this SAHM get to call themselves feminist, or it has some very specific theories that one must also buy into about what exactly equality means (eg., patriarchy and rape culture exist, reproductive rights, yin and yang gender essentialism is not actual equality, etc). But it can't be both so simple it can be a bumper sticker, and so complex there's an entire university department dedicated just to it. Pick one or the other, or you're just pulling a bait and switch.

@Inkling My Ladyfriend and I just laughed so hard I cried.

stonefruit

@Springtime for Voldemort I don't know how to respond to this. You're arguing against a position I didn't take; you're putting words in my mouth. With the obvious exception of your first sentence, I haven't made the statements that you're arguing against in your comment. I'm not sure what you're responding to, but I'm pretty sure it isn't me.

Springtime for Voldemort

@stonefruit Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you specifically had taken that position (though, it seems to be a popular opinion on the 'Pin.) I was more pointing out that I think there's more to than a frustration with ideological purity in terms of who gets to count as a feminist. But I didn't make that at all clear with who I addressed the comment to, and I apologize.

misskatesays

I am so Effing tired of hearing about how "Feminism has failed!" The woman in this article made a choice to stay home, because she could. She's so smugly proud of herself for "going against the grain". You know what? Without Feminism, she wouldn't have had any choice to make.

@misskatesays A white lady married to a man with a good job chose to stay home with her children? HOW NEW!

bluebears

And, needless (?) to say, being completely financially dependent on any one person is incredibly risky.

Judith Slutler

@bluebears Women who do this really need ironclad prenups nowadays in order to protect their financial stake in their husbands' salary.

bluebears

@Emmanuelle Cunt Absolutely. But even beyond that you just never know what the next day will bring at any point in your life you know? One income (outside of like millionaires) is just a risky proposition in this day and age, sad to say.

Judith Slutler

@bluebears God, that's so true.

Mira

@bluebears Yeah, even if this lifestyle sounded remotely appealing to me (staying home with small kids and no career of my own is actually the worst thing I can imagine, personally), I would just never do this unless I had a ton of my own money. Good Lord. I mean, I hear the way dudes at the office talk about their stay-at-home wives. No way in the world would I hitch my lifetime security to any of them, and I legitimately worry about my friends who are planning this sort of thing once they start having kids.

edited to say I'm sure there are lots and lots of married dudes who respect their wives and the work they do at home! I just seem to run into a lot of gross ones, I guess.

bluebears

@Mira Right. I know what you're saying absolutely. This was the point I was trying to make above as well. The way so many men talk about their wives with/to their co-workers is just...eye opening to say the least.

I just feel like this is something that's so rarely talked about publicly but it's something that many (working) women have experienced overhearing. Of course it's natural for someone to think, oh but MY husband wouldn't be like that...

Like you say, I'm sure not every dude is like this. But it certainly seems like many are.

adorable-eggplant

@Emmanuelle Cunt Iron clad prenups AND life insurance in the 10X range. I'd also probably start stuffing cash into the mattress, just in case, but then I'm really risk averse/prone to anxiety.

Mira

@bluebears I was kind of hesitant to bring it up because it sounds like nasty sneering from Career Ladies, but it really is something I've experienced a lot, so I'm glad you know what I was talking about!

I mean, I'm sure they say awful things about their coworkers to their wives, too, but I just can't imagine being so vulnerable to the whims of one of these guys. Fairly or not, I think a lot of sole-income men actually have a fair amount of resentment over these arrangements and probably don't feel they can say anything about it to their wives. That's an angle these types of articles never really cover.

bluebears

@Mira A friend who I was talking to about it phrased it like:

"they "respect" them in the technical sense but not in a 3D, multi-faceted way."

(again disclaimer, probably not all men just the men we've noticed who do this sort of thing)

I mean I don't have kids but honestly even without having kids being the sole earner does sound extremely stressful? And I'm not excusing it, obviously being a SAHM comes with its own stresses as well, but I can almost see where these feelings develop. I just feel like people (men primarily) are somewhat taught to "prize" the idea a wife and mother who stays at home because (1) it means you make enough money for this to be possible, no small thing status-wise and (2) it's seen as "good" for the children. So when you're actually inside this scenario I'm not sure how free you feel as a MAN to express your dissatisfaction with it.

If that makes sense?

RNL
RNL

@Mira But those guys' wives probably don't want to go to bed early and give them massages.

Mira

@bluebears Yeah, I find being the sole earner (for, um, myself) fairly stressful so I can't imagine what it would be like if you also had another adult and a dependent child also relying on you for financial security. I actually do feel quite sorry for a lot of men in this situation - it seems like it is usually the women who want to be SAHMs and their husbands don't feel like they can reasonably say no if their own salaries are enough to cover essentials.

I don't know, articles like this make me feel really glad that I can't stand kids!

@RNL Sadly/surprisingly enough, many do. (Trust me, I'm not digging for the gross details of my coworkers' personal lives, I don't know why they talk about this stuff.)

Olivia2.0

@Mira Wait....how do the dudes in your office talk about their stay at home wives???? !!!!!!

Mira

@Olivia2.0 Largely with...contempt, I guess? Really terrible comments are rare, but a lot of the men I work with seem to respect their wives as mothers and not much else (as bluebears pointed out above and I totally missed reading before commenting myself). I don't think every man is like that, of course, but in my experience it is certainly pretty common. I think there's a fair amount of sublimated resentment and perhaps embarrassment behind it.

Not justifying it in any way - I think it's gross and highly inappropriate to talk about your partner like that to people who are basically strangers - but just saying that I see it enough that I would not want to be financially dependent on one of these dudes.

(edited to agree with lalaland that I think a lot of it is an age thing, too, except in my field it's the mid-career dudes who are sort of awful, and the younger guys seem to get it more!)

lalaland

@Olivia2.0 I'm in finance and most of the guys sound pretty supportive and proud of their stay at home wives (at least to me). I've noticed this particularly in the early 30's to mid 40's middle manager types that have really young kids, so the stay at home wife thing is a pretty recent transition for them.

The early to mid 20's guys, on the other hand, are all convinced and terrified their girlfriends are simply waiting to get married and become stay at home moms.

bluebears

@Olivia2.0 In my experience they never come out and say she's living the good life but they kind of imply it? Also it's obvious they tend to see them as pretty one dimensional. They DEFINITELY think of the money they make as "their" money no matter how much lip service they give to "its our money" when they're on their best behavior/trying to impress someone.

@lalaland: I've noticed that they combine a lot of "she's a great mom" type of "respectful" talk with their hesitant griping.

MilesofMountains

@bluebears I work with a lot of guys who make good money and have SAH wives and I've noticed some infantilization when they talk about their wives. I've heard a lot of conversations that have a tone of "silly, frivolous, lazy wife, spending my money while I work."

It may have more to do with there being a type of conservative, traditionalist man who both devalues women and who expects his wife to stay home with the kids than any sort of causation. My mom was a SAHM, and my father would never spoken about my mother like that.

Blushingflwr

You know, as I sit here at my boring and not-all-that-fulfilling office job, visions of being a SAHM do dance through my head. And then I remind myself of when I was a teenager and I would babysit for young children and how STARVED for adult conversation I would be at the end of the day (really made me understand the whole idea of "mother's little helper"). I also remind myself of how unproductive I am when I have long stretches of unscheduled time, and how those visions of fresh-baked bread and pickling my own home-grown veggies might not come to fruition when faced with the opportunity to mainline Netflix. I mean, yes, with a newborn or a toddler, you're probably not going to do that, but when they're off at school all day...

Anyway, no, women are not naturally or inherently more nurturing, we are simply socialized to be. Someone with an MSW should know better.

Different choices work for different individuals/families, and our goal as a society should be to create circumstances that allow people to make the best choices for themselves and their families, with the understanding that this is also ultimately best for all of us.

kapitalk

Who could doubt the soundness of this article's analysis of feminism, which displays such high-calibre writing as, "Now Kelly is 33, and if dreams were winds, you might say that hers have shifted."

Alternately: "Now Kelly is 33, and if dreams were winds, you might say that she's broken a few here and there."

Ialdagorth

I wish I could stay at home on a six figure income. I don't have a husband or kids or anything, but I DO have a very active and growing Sim family I feel quite maternal towards.

TheJacqueline

@Ialdagorth I didn't play with dolls as a child, but I did have a truckload of stuffed animals. This clearly means I should stay at home and play with puppies all day.

If only I could get my landlord to agree.

Ialdagorth

@TheJacqueline I played with dolls! But by "played with" I mean "burned, melted, tattooed, and threw into creeks while cackling" so maybe I should stick with the Sim family.

Wait a second, I played Operation, too. Why the hell am I not a doctor? I demand answers, feminism!

cminor

@Ialdagorth I made it to the third generation before my save file got wiped.

Ialdagorth

@cminor I discovered that if you have the skeleton maid, she basically raises your kids for you but she does kind of a questionable job so...thanks Obama.

cminor

@Ialdagorth This is excellent advice.
Although I should probably reveal that I'm so bad at the Sims (and this aspect of my IRL), I only recently figured out how career advancement works in the Sims universe (still working on this universe).
Work-a-holic traits for all!

Faintly Macabre

@Ialdagorth Yeah, that line...wow. I had a huge doll collection when I was little. I did have dress-ups and tea parties, but I also beheaded my sister's fake Barbie doll (you could pop the head off and on and she hated when I did it, so of course I did it all the time) and often sentenced my dolls/stuffed animals to long periods of sitting in the corner staring remorsefully at the wall. I guess I was training to be an abusive mother, is all. On the bright side, I now I have another response for when people say, "But you'd be such a good mother!"

aphrabean

@Ialdagorth I was terrified my toys were going to murder me in my sleep unless I showed each of them the exactly correct and equal amount of affection. The idea of having kids really stresses me out! Correlation?!

SarcasticFringehead

@Ialdagorth My skeleton maid (or maybe it was my butler?) just kept making key lime pie. As soon as she'd make one, I'd tell her to put it in the fridge to keep for leftovers, and she'd just make another one. I'm not sure how healthy that was for my simkids.

adorable-eggplant

@SarcasticFringehead I need one of these irl.

Inkling

@SarcasticFringehead
I really like that I have no context for your comment.

This is my new username

@TheJacqueline Truefact, I WISH my job could be to play with puppies all day! Dream career right there!

Poubelle

Kelly calls herself “a flaming liberal” and a feminist, too. “I want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants,” she says. “But I also want to say, ‘Have a career that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat.’ ”
I hope like fuck you are telling your son the exact same thing, lady. But I doubt it. And I hope if your daughter decides she doesn't want kids or that staying home with them is awful and boring, you can actually support her in that instead of nattering on about maternal instincts.

(Seriously, did we get a profile of this lady as punishment for complaining about Sheryl Sandberg or something? Whatever flaws Sandberg may have, I'd rather have my daughter following her ideas than this retrograde nutter.)

At least the folks on the conservative end who do this aren't lying to themselves.

MilesofMountains

@Poubelle Note that it's not "do anything you want, and remember that a career is not the only fulfilling thing you can do with your life" it's "don't love your career too much, because regardless of how much you like it, once you get pregnant you should walk away from it".

Poubelle

@MilesofMountains Exactly! I'm all for encouraging your kid to have a full life and goals/dreams outside of work, but that's not what she's saying at all.

heyladies

@Poubelle And how can she walk away from her career at the drop of a hat unless someone (presumably a wealthy husband)is taking care of her? flaming liberal feminist, indeed.

@Poubelle I cannot like this enough times.

RNL
RNL

"Girls play with dolls because they are naturally more maternal."

Did she stay at home for the critical thinking class during her fancy MSW?

H.E. Ladypants

@RNL I hated playing with baby dolls! I want to be a mom!

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!?!

(Not much.)

hallelujah

@RNL SERIOUSLY. Of the entire pile of fuckery that is that article, that is what enraged me the most.

Ellie

To be fair, this is true, and it irritates me when people say that gender differences are a product of socialization alone.

But despite the above statement, I have always been indescribably revolted by dolls, ESPECIALLY baby dolls, and babies in general, and I too 100% totally definitely want kids, so, you know.

lucy snowe

@H.E. Ladypants Yeah. Dolls and babies aren't really the same. You can drag a doll around by its head before hucking it at the cat. Also, it's a bad idea to pierce your baby's ears with thumbtacks.

theotherginger

@lucy snowe I hearted my dolls. Now I am fairly sure I don't want kids.

lucy snowe

@theotherginger Dolls don't poop.

ETA- Most of them don't, anyway...

H.E. Ladypants

@lucy snowe And according to Freud, they're really just penis replacements!

RNL
RNL

@H.E. Ladypants I got soooo confused when I got the notification email for this comment cause I thought it was on a thread about orchids and I was like, man even FREUD couldn't get it THAT wrong. Orchids are vulvas, ok?

lucy snowe

@H.E. Ladypants What the whaaaa?

That isn't really how I played with my dolls.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)

hands_down

Maybe I can worry about shit like this after we finally achieve universal paid FMLA leave, affordable day care, etc. You know, stuff that impacts all working women, not just the wealthy ones.

City_Dater

@hands_down

Thank you!

werewolfbarmitzvah

AH, choices! The beauuuuuutiful smorgasbord of choices! Funny how easy it is for a woman to be able to have choices when her husband makes six figures! Or for ANY parents to have choices when either one of the two parents makes six figures!

My husband and I are having a baby this year and boyyyyyy do I wish we could afford to have choices.

parallel-lines

@werewolfbarmitzvah Have you considered getting weird bangs and goofy leggings in place of said choices? Just think it over.

misskatesays

@werewolfbarmitzvah EXACTLY. This article filled me with such rage, I couldn't see straight.

RubeksCube

@werewolfbarmitzvah Seriously. My husband and I are due in about a month, and choices sound pretty awesome...

Oh, squiggles

I had to rage-quit reading this article.

RNL
RNL

@Absurd Bird Have an article you can walk away from at the drop of a hat.

Scandyhoovian

When did "women who dress in a way that doesn't conform to white upper-middle class standards are automatically feminists" become a thing, anyway? Do I need Converse to be a real feminist? 'Cause my old green ones are starting to not really work as shoes and I don't really want to replace them.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@Scandyhoovian
I get paid $2 by Converse if I tell you "yes."

cminor

@Scandyhoovian I have purple suede Adidas.
Better arch support.
(Arch support should be the feminist shoe requirement)

@Scandyhoovian I'm a feminist. Today I wore Uggs. Say what you will about Uggs, but I live in Boston and it is wicked cold here.

Ophelia

@Scandyhoovian I'm a feminist, and today I wore disgusting sneakers with holes in the toes. But I was going to the dog park, so it seemed appropriate.

packedsuitcase

Seriously, I have enough rage at work right now, I didn't need to read this. So what did I do? I tortured myself by reading all 7 pages. Poor life choices, packedsuitcase. Poor life choices.

prefer not to say

I'm too exhausted to read this article, so could someone please just tell me if it mentions anywhere what the family plans to do if the bread-winning husband comes down with a chronic, debilitating illness?

I, too, keep a list of my husband's clothing sizes. And his medicines. And his doctors. I also spend a lot of time cooking him healthy, organic meals designed to be appealing to him. You know-- so he's able to continue functioning on a level high enough to bathe himself, and maybe live long enough for the doctors to figure out a better plan.

And you know how I can afford the fuck to be as devoted to him as I really want to be? Because I have a fucking job, that's how. Having a career turns out to be a great way to keep your commitments to the people you love best. Especially if they happen to need health insurance.

Mira

@prefer not to say It does not mention that (shocking, I know). You sound like a rock star and I'm sorry you and your husband are in what sounds like tough circumstances.

Olivia2.0

@prefer not to say This is an amazing point. My mother had a great career, and it was a good thing too, as my father died and she was left with a 9 year old me and a 5 year old little sister. So, while my mom worked the whole time we were growing up, we understood it was part of REALITY and that sometimes things go bad, and being an adult is tough. We still had really great childhoods.

packedsuitcase

@prefer not to say You're a rockstar and I'm so sorry you guys are going through that. I think it's a huge point - you can't guarantee that just because one spouse works that nothing bad will happen to them. Horrible things happen to people every day and there is no waiver that says, "Oh, no, they're the sole provider for their family, you can't let anything bad happen to them."

iceberg

@prefer not to say - oh honey. I'm so sorry, that really sounds exhausting and stressful. I hope health insurance comes through for you.

prefer not to say

No -- I'm not a rock star. Millions of people are doing things equally hard every day, and they don't all get to be first-world middle-class people while doing them. In terms of the global distribution of luck, I still got more than my fair share.

But it is worth saying over and over that staying at home while your children are young does not exhaust the definition of "caregiving." I'm very pro-caregiving. Caregiving rocks. I feel like my basic human need to care for those around me is met because I go to work from 8 to 6, and thus am able to provide food and clothing and yes, even health insurance, for the people I love the most. I find that fulfilling, even when it's hard. Why not make sure we tell the young boys and girls in our life about that too?

Maryaed

@prefer not to say Thank you.

nationalboneawards

Obviously you only get there if you actually proceed with hate reading for twenty tedious minutes but was anyone else SQUICKED OUT by that random isolated paragraph that implied Rebecca Woolf of Girls Gone Child doesn't work and spends all day staging fake photos of her children to perversely glamorize motherhood? It seemed weirdly mean-spirited and underminey in addition to having nothing to do with the premise of the article, given that lady is a full time blogger/HGTV personality/book author who writes all the time about having to outsource child care and her Feelings About That.

packedsuitcase

@nationalboneawards Oh, I meant to copy that part and paste it here to comment on because it bugged the ever loving shit out of me.

dj pomegranate

@nationalboneawards Yeah, I didn't really get it? It seemed meant to illustrate that "these young women, they love motherhood so much that they are blogging about it full-time!" but 1. that is not news and 2. it seemed vaguely mean-spirited and 3. There is a whole actual conversation we could have about industries and/or jobs that are good at accommodating working parents who also want family time (blogging, for example!) Including this example made it seem like the author thought about mentioning that, but chose to focus on the binary instead. ("There ARE jobs that allow you to stay at home, but they are weird and you'll end up naming your child Boheme! Better just quit altogether and let your husband do the workin'!")

nationalboneawards

@dj pomegranate Ha ha, now that you mention it YES, the listing of the kids' names in that fasion was a little too on the nose. She may as well have said "presented without comment."

enic

@nationalboneawards Yes, very much so.

ms. alex

What the world needs is more articles about dads who want it all and the feminist househusband. I would feel slightly less stressed the fuck out about parenting if maybe the dudes were also up in arms about it. (Okay, so probably a lot of them are, but where are the articles about them, hmmm? And how many articles about moms are there per each article about dads?)

God I just want to have two kids and a full-time job, but I also want my hypothetical future children to spend less time in a shitty daycare than I did, okay? (Not my parents fault, they did what they could! Also maybe I'm just jealous that six years later, my sister got to Montessori, where they also had gymnastics lessons.)

adorable-eggplant

@ms. alex This may be oversimplified, but finding a great daycare could go a long way towards de-pressurizing the whole situation. I went to an awesome co-op one, where the parents were responsible for doing some small amount of time each week, so everyone got to know each other and the main caregivers. They still talk about how awesome that experience was, and I've graduated college by now.

ms. alex

@ms. alex I just need to get far, far away from internet Mommy Wars so I can stop having nightmares.

hallelujah

@ms. alex As the proud owner JUST KIDDING of a feminist househusband, I wish this so badly as well. I know he's not the only one, and it's hard for him too thinking he's a cultural aberration.

dj pomegranate

@hallelujah We should advertise for the next general'Pinup: Feminist Househusbands Welcome!

lucy snowe

@hallelujah My BIL was pretty desperate to quit being a homemaker, because he felt so lonely at the playground with his kids. He said none of the moms wanted to talk with him.

I can sympathise, I guess. But honestly, I feel like that a lot at the playground, too. And there are groups of dads who come to do playground meetups, and I feel like they're enveloped in this heroic golden glow, just for being there. Not that they don't deserve it. But none of the moms doing the exact same thing are garnering that sort of response.

Eh. I can't figure it all out tonight, sir. I'm just gonna hang with your daughter.

Diana

@ms. alex

Yeah, I was raised by my stay at home dad, who was otherwise a very conservative, hilariously uptight Hank Hill type of person. If HE could do it with such love and affection and obvious pride, there is sure as fuck no excuse for the condescension thrown by so many so-called progressive dudes at the idea of full time parenting.

ms. alex

@hallelujah I hope it becomes less uncommon in the next few years. I don't think they should be treated like they're weird (like other parents ignoring them on the playground because stay-at-home dads are somehow strange and not to be trusted) and I don't think they should be put on a pedestal, I just want them to be normal.

My husband says he'd be cool with being a SAHD, but first he has to finish his grad school and then I have to do my grad school and find a (career)job, so...that's going to be a while. But it's nice that it's not all on me, if at some point down the road we decide to have kids and have one of us be home full-time while they're little.

hallelujah

@lucy snowe oh the exalting of fathers who manage to change a diaper without exploding makes me crazy. People fawn all over my partner whenever we're out just for giving the baby a bottle or something, and I get fucking side eyed for letting him. To be fair, he doesn't like it either, but still. Drives me nuts.

lucy snowe

@hallelujah Well. Just look at all he does for you.

(Again, not that he isn't wonderful. It's just weird that if he cares for the kids, it's seen as doing you a favor.)

MilesofMountains

@lucy snowe My dad was a SAHD in the 80's and he said the same thing. Other mothers didn't really want to set up play dates with him, and he got the impression it was because they thought their husbands wouldn't approve, and he was pretty much ignored at "Mom and Baby" classes (maybe the title should have tipped him off). He says he still enjoyed it, though, and he only went back to work when my mother went on maternity leave again and wanted a turn.

lucy snowe

@MilesofMountains Yeah, I could see that dynamic happening.

There seem to be a lot of SAHDs in my neighborhood. Or maybe couples trade off days? Anyway, at least in my neck of the woods it does seem like it's becoming more common, which hopefully will iron out some of the awkward wrinkles of parent socializing.

It'll never get them all, though. Guh. Sometimes being a parent at the playground reminds me of being a child at the playground. Which isn't always a good thing.

Bittersweet

@hallelujah It always amazes me that there are still dads who WON'T change diapers these days. I was flipping channels the other night and came across a "Baby Story" episode on TLC in which the couple had just had twin boys. The father refused to change the babies' dirty diapers, and handed them over the mother EVERY TIME. My jaw just dropped and I actually yelled at the TV, "Dude, just change it yourself already! You won't freaking melt!"

Jinxie

“I want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants,” she says. “But I also want to say, ‘Have a career that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat.’ ”
Have a career that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat
Have a career that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat
Have a career that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat
Have a career that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat

WHAT IS THIS? I MEAN, SERIOUSLY WHAT? "I want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants,” she says. “But I also want to say, 'Have a career that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat'"
"I want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants, but I want her to know that dropping everything to stay home with children will always be the most important choice!"

lucy snowe

@Jinxie I would also like my child to develop verbal proficiency.

Diana

@Jinxie

Right? What the fuck kind of career would she ever be able to have in order to exercise such careless abandonment? In what other realm of her life could she possibly operate in such a manner?

"I want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants, but I also want to say, 'Have a marriage that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat.'"

Reginal T. Squirge

"I want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants, but I also want to say, 'Have a baby that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat.'"

Reginal T. Squirge

"I want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants, but I also want to say, 'Have a personality that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat.'"

Reginal T. Squirge

"I want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants, but I also want to say, 'Have a hat that you can walk away from at the drop of a hat.'"

adorable-eggplant

@Reginal T. Squirge I feel like we're getting into Talented Mr. Ripley territory here.

Reginal T. Squirge

It's like, what if the hat drops you, maaaaaannnnnnn?

RNL
RNL

@Diana Or alternatively, what career can you NOT walk away from if you have enough money? Is there some career that you HAVE to keep doing? Other than, like, president? Sarah Palin showed us being Governor isn't even a 4 year sentence.

WHAT IS SHE TALKING ABOUT? OTHER THAN: Hey daughter, have a career if you feel like it, but remember that you'll only be doing it until you get preggers.

RNL
RNL

@RNL Actually it really reminds me of the very very ambitious young evangelical Christian women I have met who are winning awards and becoming high-powered lawyers and taking their careers VERY seriously KNOWING they were planning on giving them up at 27. It's so strange to me.

adorable-eggplant

@RNL Maybe her daughter should aim for pope?

Inkling

@Reginal T. Squirge
What about a hat you can walk away from at the drop of a baby?

ghost with the most

an intelligent response: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/03/18/sorry_nymag_but_feminist_housewives_are_not_a_real_trend.html

i love that she uses orthodox jews and mormons as groups that have this SAHM appeal... just whaaat????@($*)!*#_!

artificial owl

repost from what i wrote at the nymag website. seriously, fuck this article.

This article was so incredibly heavy handed - the fact that the author cited probably one of the dumbest "scientific" studies of the last few years (which draws a "correlation" between men doing less chores and having more sex) makes that abundantly clear. Also, way to present a completely heteronormative perspective that drew on the experiences of three or four presumably white, upper middle class straight women. I get the feeling the author is living in a pretty limited world, and so instead of a story on how ideas about marriage and family are ACTUALLY evolving, we get one on privileged white women who are apparently feeling less bad about using said privilege. And they should make the choices that fulfill them, whatever they are, but a woman whose husband earns six figures deciding to stay home is not exactly a newsflash to me.

Also, feminism failed, you say? Lisa Miller, you must just be blinded by your classist, limited worldview, which I am sorry for. It still hasn't even reached certain parts of our world.

Mrs. Grundy

This article is obviously terrible, in large part because it says stupid, terrible things about women being naturally suited to being care-takers and moms and all that, BUT, here is one thing that I think it is useful to talk about:Modern feminism, as it has evolved in the context of industrial, and then post-industrial capitalism, has sometimes (sometimes!) presented work as a sort of panacea for women's oppression, and has focused on individual achievement/fulfillment rather than reforming collective social structures. I do think it's important to consider the ways in which our obsession with money and work have been used to co-opt feminism, and to present having a job as a the only path to power or happiness. I want to stress, though, how strongly I feel that everyone should do what is right for them, and that both men and women, and everyone in between, can be perfectly wonderful caretakers, or CEOs, or social workers.

happy go lucky scamp

if you put everyone in the world into a line according to how good they are at housekeeping, caregiving, and nurturing I highly doubt that all the womenfolk would be at one end and all the menfolk would be at the other.
How would you even test for that anyway.
Grr

teaandcakeordeath

What's so disappointing is that there should be an article that discusses how difficult it is for adults (fathers and mothers) to reconcile their careers with their familial responsibilities. Because working hours are too long, day care is too expensive and the majority of families are under strain.
That article should have promoted better workplace programs, more parental leave, more part-time and flextime options.
It should not have decried feminism as it's solution. It's like saying to avoid MRSA you should get rid of hospitals.
anger anger anger.

mannequinhands

WHAT ABOUT MY DOUBLE-INCOME LESBIAN HOUSEHOLD? AM I STILL A FEMINIST? HOW CAN I BE A FEMINIST IF I DON'T HAVE KIDS OR A HUSBAND TO CHOOSE OVER MY CAREER, NYMAG???

SHOULD I BECOME A SAHCM (STAY AT HOME CAT MOM)?

whimseywisp

@mannequinhands I HEART YOU LIKE WHOA. YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY BECOME A SAHCM :D :D :D.

Story #2

Wages for housework, motherfuckers.

DrFeelGood

Clicked through; ugh TL;DR. Fuck this noise and it's pageviews. I'm so sick of this ish and being told how to be a freaking woman. I'm too busy looking for a full-time job to "lean in" to to worry about the fact that I'm an accidental housewife.

Ladies Who Punch

My favorite part of this article is all of these intelligent feminist women having smart counter arguments to it. <3

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