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Thursday, January 24, 2013

150

Cathrynn Brown's House Bill 206

"... Tampering with evidence shall include procuring or facilitating an abortion, or compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion, of a fetus that is the result of criminal sexual penetration or incest with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime."

Wow.

150 Comments / Post A Comment

spanglepants

I'm so appalled that I don't think my brain is allowing me to believe this is true.

Hot Doom

@spanglepants Right? My jaw: it has dropped.

katiemcgillicuddy

@spanglepants I kept clicking on this post and it wouldn't load, as if even the computer was having a hard time computing it.

area@twitter

If it can't be stolen from the evidence locker, does it still count as evidence?
(I am asking this question to try and stave off being consumed alive by my own rage and subsequently reincarnated as an entity of utter destruction.)

Reginal T. Squirge

I think the point here is that they think you're the evidence locker.

RK Fire

@Reginal T. Squirge Okay, so I mentally retched when I read the initial post and then I mentally retched again at this (probably correct) statement.

area@twitter

@Reginal T. Squirge So THAT'S where all the cocaine went.

Ophelia

@Reginal T. Squirge I think I'm going to have to make a maternity t-shirt that says "evidence locker."

SarcasticFringehead

@area@twitter In the same spirit of temporarily preventing my simultaneous ex- and im-plosion from rage:

In a criminal case, evidence is kept by the court until such time as it is no longer needed (after appeals, etc.) and then destroyed. What do they plan to do with the fetus? (haha, they don't plan to do anything because they are collectively dumber than a box of hair.)

area@twitter

@SarcasticFringehead Exactly! These morons want to count a fetus as evidence? Let's follow that to its illogical conclusion together, shall we?

Linette

@Reginal T. Squirge You, sir, are the reason I can read about horrific things on the internet without weeping outright. All truly wretched news should be delivered with irreverent joking on the side.

@Ophelia I would buy the crap out of that shirt and then walk around with a beach ball under it so I could wear it immediately.

katiemcgillicuddy

@Reginal T. Squirge You're comment is so on point that it makes me want to leave the planet forever.

Reginal T. Squirge

Yeah, a lot of people describe me this way.

Faintly Macabre

@Reginal T. Squirge At least if the evidence is stored in the person associated with the case, they can't lose it like all of the rape kits various states keep misplacing.

EpWs

@Reginal T. Squirge I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Hellcat

It is so insane that I almost Snopes'd it. Almost.

Ophelia

If they're concerned about "evidence," couldn't they just mandate that the doctor preserves any fetal tissue removed during an abortion?

(but let's be honest, they're not concerned about evidence)

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

@Ophelia Nope. These crusaders will take any tack to make abortions illegal. They'll cloak it in whatever disguise they can.

Poubelle

@Ophelia Shh, that's logical.

Also, I think that actually happened in an SVU episode--saving the fetal tissue after an abortion--though iirc, at that point in the episode it wasn't clear that the woman was the one who had been raped.)

fondue with cheddar

@Ophelia How about if they charge the fetus with tampering with evidence...for growing.

Spaghettius!

@Ophelia Defense attorney: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, as you can see, this woman is clearly lying! She is not even remotely knocked-up looking"
"Objection! Her doctor's records clearly indicate that a pregnancy did in fact result, and a DNA sample of the aborted fetus has been preserved."
Defense attorney: "...not even REMOTELY knocked-up looking. I rest my case."
I mean, really? Really?? It's like that?

fondue with cheddar

@Spaghettius! "Your honor, not ONCE has the plaintiff gotten up to pee during this trial."

Ophelia

@fondue with cheddar "And she does NOT have Tums in her purse; I checked!"

fondue with cheddar

@Ophelia "Sure, the DNA test shows that she's the mother, but how do you know she didn't implant her eggs in someone else?"

katiemcgillicuddy

@fondue with cheddar "How about if they charge the fetus with tampering with evidence...for growing."

Can't you just hear Horatio Caine's voice saying this, as he slides on his sunglasses, followed by Roger Daltrey's scream?

Hellcat

@katiemcgillicuddy My brain keeps veering toward puns along the lines of "Looks like we've got a cut-and-dried case of Pampering the evidence." Or something.

YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHHHHHHH!

fondue with cheddar

@Hellcat AAAAHHH YOU

katiemcgillicuddy

@Hellcat Damn you for making me laugh, I'M TRYING TO BE RIGHTEOUSLY INDIGNANT.

Hellcat

@katiemcgillicuddy I'm sorry. I don't even watch that show but I always delight in other people making that kind of joke on the internet--I just wanted a go at it!

katiemcgillicuddy

@Hellcat Haha, I didn't watch it either but god, that guy was hysterical. Thank you for bringing some much needed levity to something that was making me physically ill.

Hellcat

@Poubelle It was the one with Sabrina the Teenage Witch on it!

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

This article, plus the one about the Catholic hospital fighting a wrongful death suit by saying fetuses aren't people, has me in the rage fits today. I need to stop reading the news for now.

area@twitter

@I'm Right on Top of that, Rose The inversion of logic is what gets me. I thought these were the groups stridently insisting that abortion is murder? But then suddenly a fetus is an object? If you're going to use simplistic interpretations, you have to stick them.

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

@area@twitter I think their logic is "whatever's convenient."

area@twitter

@I'm Right on Top of that, Rose I just want to grab these assholes by the lapels and hiss "Do you think we're fucking idiots? Did you think we wouldn't fucking notice what you're trying to pull? Did you fuck?!"

Poubelle

@I'm Right on Top of that, Rose Ugh, that case made me so mad both on the level of it being blatant hypocrisy and on the level where I used to be Catholic and LIFE IS EITHER SACRED STARTING AT CONCEPTION OR IT ISN'T, ignoring one of your most prominent teachings to make your lawsuit easier is wrong. I'm just disgusted.

laurel

Thanks a lot, Carlsbad. Your ironic nickname 'Carlsrad' is hereby revoked.

Judith Slutler

seriously who thinks this shit up, like who gets up in the morning and says "oh I know how I can stop rape victims from aborting unwanted pregnancies, make them keep the fetus AS EVIDENCE"

World I am so done with you.

coolallison

@Emmanuelle Cunt What if we all pooled our resources and bought an island?

Biketastrophy

@coolallison All y'all can come up to Massachusetts, we're like a big liberal party up here. We just got rid of Scott Brown finally, and our local Fox affiliate makes fun of the actual Fox News.

Biketastrophy

@Biketastrophy Though today is a high of 18, and was 2 degrees this morning when I left for work. So that's a downer if you're not into cold weather.

coolallison

@Biketastrophy While that WOULD be a tough transition from Texas (weather-wise), the fact that you said "y'all" makes me feel like I would be welcomed with open arms. Or slightly standoffish arms. I'm not sure how people up north welcome newcomers.

highfivesforall

@coolallison We nod at them, and maaaaybe shake hands if we've had a drink already.

anachronistique

@Biketastrophy Don't speak too soon, if Kerry goes up for Secretary of State we might have Brown running for his seat all over again. (I will probably go pour sugar in the gas tank of his stupid goddamned truck if this happens.)

Ophelia

@highfivesforall Once we've let the newcomers thaw out, of course.

Biketastrophy

@anachronistique Oh god I forgot about that, thats definitely going to happen. We need a democrat and quick. I think he'll actually win if there isn't a strong opponent since bunches of people will be like "Well he wasn't that bad" Which he isn't for a repub, but my bleeding heart still doesn't like him for a few reasons.

Lulu22

@coolallison Or better yet, what if we all pooled our resources and donated them to Planned Parenthood and called our congresspeople and then Cathrynn Brown could find her OWN island since we wouldn't need one anymore?

RK Fire

So what's the thing to do about this bill? Petitions, phone calls, emails? Do state legislators even give a shit about what people outside of the state think? Maybe send emails to the GOP central committee saying "this is why I will never vote for you, dumbasses?"

area@twitter

@RK Fire Second. What do we do now? Where do I put this anger?

Ophelia

@area@twitter I was going to suggest arson, but I almost wonder whether a flood of letters to the state tourism board/chamber of commerce about how no one is ever going to visit because of their GOP might hit 'em all closer to where it hurts. Particularly if you're someone who, say, organizes conferences or events for a living.

laurel

For the many, many 'Pinners of New Mexico, here's where you find your state rep. I just gave mine a call and sent an email.

iceberg

@RK Fire this is from a Facebook comment under the article, so I don't know if it's accurate, but:
Representative Cathrynn N. Brown - (R)

Brown
District: 55
County: Eddy
Representative Since: 2011
Occupation: Attorney
Address: 1814 N. Guadalupe Street
Carlsbad, NM 88220
Capitol Phone: (505) 986-4248
Capitol Room #: 206B
Office Phone: (575) 302-2746
Home Phone:
E-mail: cath@cathrynnbrown.com

iceberg

@iceberg here's a handy link to the feedback form on her website: http://cathrynnbrown.com/index.php?feedback_form=1

Ophelia

@iceberg Do you think it's inappropriate to use the word "fuck" when calling her? Because I'm not sure I'll be able to avoid it.

laurel

Thank you, @iceberg.

RK Fire

Thanks, guys! I may be doing a cross-country trip soon, and Arizona was already on my shit list.. looks like NM might be too.

laurel

@RK Fire Noooooooooooo. Don't let the extreme freaks in southern NM put you off what is otherwise a mostly progressive state full of tumbledown charm, art, cultural diversity and profound natural beauty.

Maybe just gas up outside the state since the economy in the southern part of the state is entirely funded by the oil and gas industry. Fuck me, Carlsbad? No, fuck you.

RK Fire

@laurel Ahhh I was thinking about this side of it too! On one hand: hitting states in the tourism kidney, on the flipside, I won't get to check out major swaths of the SW.

But I guess if I was really serious about this I'd stay out of Georgia too. :/ I'm easily persuadable.

iceberg

@RK Fire UGH I tried but it requires your contact info and that piece of shit isn't getting mine. If I lived in NM and thought it could make a difference I would though.

alannaofdoom

@laurel - It's also full of green chile!

I need to plan a trip back home stat. I wonder if I could get there before dinner?

Ophelia

@iceberg Incidentally, the New Mexico tourism board's twitter is @NMTourism
The chamber of commerce doesn't seem to be quite that technologically advanced.

laurel

@alannaofdoom Bwahaha, I'm still eating some I grew last summer, roasted and froze. I had them in a cheese omelette for breakfast.

@Ophelia Thanks, I tweeted at them.

up cubed

@RK Fire She looks like an all-around winner (from her blog): I will be continuing the effort to adopt voter verification [...].
But seriously, lots of New Mexicans are liberal. It went to Obama twice, in a sea of red.

sovereignann@twitter

@RK Fire I was going to say, you might just have to stay off of I-10 all together.

Ophelia

@upupandaway That's true. And I think their state legislature is blue, so there's no way this'll pass.

RK Fire

@upupandaway & socereignann@twitter Fine points to both of you! Okay, I'll just spam Cathrynn Brown with gifs/emails then.

@all Is it too childish/nerdy to simply say "This bill (HB 206) is terrible and you should feel terrible"?

sovereignann@twitter

@alannaofdoom mmmmmm stuffed sopapillas with green and red sauce. I think I could live off of those and the green chile burgers.

katiemcgillicuddy

@Ophelia I think calling her a "fuck" is perfectly fine. Oh wait, you mean "when calling her" can you use the term, I understand. The answer is still yes.

hallelujah

So, is it illegal to get an abortion with the intent to destroy evidence, or illegal full stop for a rape survivor to get an abortion BECAUSE it would destroy evidence? I mean, fucking bonkers either way, but the first makes shake my head and the second provokes a rage blackout.

iceberg

@hallelujah yeah the article says "with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime". so if this ever got charged, couldn't the person just be like, well if I am the victim and I am causuing this person to be prosecuted with the crime, then clearly my intent was simply not to carry my rapist's child, and IN FACT I would prefer NOT to destroy "evidence" but this "evidence" was planning to grow into a human, so NOPE.

Waterbears

@hallelujah I'm sure the intent of the law is to prevent rape survivors from seeking/getting abortions. If they're so fucking worried about "destroying evidence" then I'd be happy to bottle up my abortion and hand it to the first available GOP rep.

hallelujah

@KEO Oh it definitely is, but it could be through obfuscation rather than criminalization, ya know? And also to put yet another roadblock up for doctors, because they are the ones made responsible for investigating this kind of thing. Like a recent law in MI that made it illegal to "coerce" someone into having an abortion - it's far more about adding unnecessary steps to the process rather than preventing "coercion".

Mary Goodhue@facebook

@hallelujah So, I think it's the first one. I can even sort of understand it - imagine a 13 yr old raped by her father/uncle/brother/whatever. She becomes pregnant. The family wishes to deny what's happened to her, so they force her to get an abortion. They don't tell the abortion provider, obviously, what's happened. Ideally, that's what this law is aimed at. The problem is the potential for someone to deny an abortion or make it harder to get because of this law.

iceberg

what
the
fuck
you are a woman, you shitty shitty excuse for a human, what the fuck.

irma la douce

so are we also going to prevent victims of violent crime from getting their wounds treated because it's tampering with evidence?

(oh no, wait, we only propose stupid and insane laws when vaginas are involved)

fondue with cheddar

@irma la douce But it's probably totally legal to pee after a rape even though you may inadvertently wash some of the evidence off your vulva.

Fuck it all (figuratively).

MilesofMountains

@fondue with cheddar Shhhh or next thing you know they'll bring in a law like that. You know, to be fair.

fondue with cheddar

@MilesofMountains Yeah, because everyone knows the legal system is all about fairness. *eyeroll*

Faintly Macabre

@fondue with cheddar Shhhhh, women don't excrete!

fondue with cheddar

@Faintly Macabre WOMEN ONLY EXCRETE BABIES

Blushingflwr

with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime.

So, what if my intent is to simply not bring an unwanted life into the world when I'm not medically or financially fit for it?

jstock

@Blushingflwr Right? I'd love to meet the lady who was like "HaHA! I know! I'll destroy the evidence! Then they'll never be able to nail the asswipe who did this to me!"

Blushingflwr

@jstock I mean, I'm down with "you can't compel someone to get an abortion to cover up a crime", sure. So, like, if you are the rapist (and also the father/boyfriend/husband of the woman), you can't force the woman to get an abortion; or if you are a parent and you don't want to make waves you can't get your daughter to have an abortion to destroy the evidence of her rape. That makes sense to me. But to say that a woman can't get an abortion of her own volition if she is impregnated by rape is just crazypants.

Nicole Cliffe

Eat me. (Chirpy, conversational tone with undercurrent of rage and despair.)

laurel

So, when your reps do something bonkers and you contact them, do y'all offer well-reasoned arguments against or do you just basically shout, "NOPE!" into the phone or down the intertubes and figure that you'll be counted in the con column?

Judith Slutler

@laurel I try to be reasonable but then this one time I called the DOJ's voicemail and just read out part of the Nuremburg hearings' decision re: torture, and it was pretty cathartic...

Ophelia

@laurel Maybe we can just send her the octopus .GIF?

Judith Slutler

@Ophelia We could see if that one Russian guy will lend us his cat that can say "no no no no no no."

polka dots vs stripes

@laurel I called my (ex) governor once and gave them an earful and they just said "Mhm Mhm Mhm okay thank you"

Still felt good.

Gah edited to say I totally missed your point. I tried to offer reasonable arguments but was so flustered/angry I basically ended up saying DON'T VETO THE GAY MARRIAGE BILL GAHHHHHH!!! I think they got the point.

hallelujah

I fucking bet this was part of Right to Life's 2013 legislation suggestions, & this lady was the only lawmaker stupid enough to try it. None of these fuckers EVER think this shit up on their own.

iceberg

ahh thank you for this: "do you just basically shout, "NOPE!" into the phone" - one of those laugh or you'll never stop crying moments.

WineRanger

I live in New Mexico. I analyze legislation. I had to read and summarize this bill this morning with only one cup of coffee in me. It made me more ill than yesterday's Parental Notification Bill. Sixty day sessions are a free-for-all and this one is going to be looney toons. I'm going to go watch Hilary Clinton bitch-slap Congress again.

area@twitter

@WineRanger Hills taking Tea Party dopes to the mat is the only thing that has made this day worthwhile. (Did you see the Feministing gifs? You saw the Feministing gifs, right?)

StandardTuber

@WineRanger What about introducing legislation that says if you refuse to provide, or allow access to, an abortion for a pregnancy caused by rape/incest or coercion, you will be charged with corroboration?

iceberg

@area@twitter Oh man I am so voting for Hilz if/when.

fondue with cheddar

@iceberg I will vote the fuck out of that woman.

Ophelia

@fondue with cheddar You know, if you reverse "vote" and "fuck" we get right back to where I think the GOP is trying to go.

(Also, yes! Hillary!)

iceberg

@WineRanger Bless you, you are a saint for not just straight up murdering whoever came into your field of vision after reading that.

area@twitter

@WineRanger Late breaking but incredible quote from my mom, re: Hills: "I watched her snap off the head of that wheedling little jerk and it filled me with joy each time."
<3 u, Mom.

fondue with cheddar

@area@twitter I love your mom! Mine watches Fox News. :(

area@twitter

@fondue with cheddar BOO. Feel free to invite mine over! Just be sure you have plenty of wine.

WineRanger

@iceberg Fortunately, at that time in the morning it's just me and my cat. I just gave him some extra snuggles and tried to forget about it. When I broke for lunch and saw this post I was pretty confused.

fondue with cheddar

@area@twitter Don't worry, I don't even drink so all the wine is hers! You can come, too. :)

My stepdad has definitely been a bad influence on my mom. She just kinda goes with the flow.

MmeLibrarian

The person who thought of this little contortion of logic must be fucking *thrilled* with himself.

up cubed

@MmeLibrarian herself :(

Megasus

NOPENOPENOPENOPE

sovereignann@twitter

Yet another perfect example of why ALL elections are important. And really, the state ones are the ones which have seemed the most important lately especially with bullshit like this and the fucking gerrymandering which guarantees that no matter how mad you get, the votes are stacked against you.
We need to pay attention to local and state politics is what I'm sayin'.

dj pomegranate

Oh god I saw this on Shakesville and was hoping hoping hoping that it was an Onion article. Nope. People in the world actually think this is a good idea.

SuperGogo

UPDATE: Rep. Brown claims she never meant to deny raped women abortions AT ALL and it's totes a MISTAKE that we all misunderstood the bill and she's submitting a new version that will be WAY clearer. Right.
http://www.nmtelegram.com/2013/01/24/bill-criminalizes-abortions-in-case-of-rape/

Ophelia

@SuperGogo Yeah, she's a fucking lawyer. If she wrote a bill, she damned well knew the legal implications.

SuperGogo

@Ophelia Yeah, the headline should actually be Terrible Person Realizes That Everyone Thinks Her Terrible Bill Is Terrible.

WineRanger

@SuperGogo Awesome. Love, love, love when bills are introduced but that's not what they really meant. Citizen legislatures, gotta love 'em

Scandyhoovian

for FUCK'S SAKE

ok so wait a tick fetuses are people unless they're objects (evidence) or actually fetuses are just the key to the universe and republicans have promised the wacky monks that they will protect the key with their life and

wait

that's buffy

I CAN'T BRAIN. THIS HURTS MY BRAIN TOO HARD.

flames. flames. on the side. of my face.

Julie Patron@twitter

Wow, calm down! Read the stupid bill why don't you (instead of blindly reacting in your ignorance) "...with intent to prevent the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of any person or to throw suspicion of the commission of a crime upon another." Jesus you people, are ALL of you this retarded?

SuperGogo

@Julie Patron@twitter You seem smart/thoughtful.

hallelujah

@SuperGogo And charming!

Mingus_Thurber

@hallelujah Her hair looks great, don't you think?

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

@SuperGogo And super fun at parties.

WineRanger

@I'm Right on Top of that, Rose Her laser focus and dedication to detail makes me want to play no-limit poker with her.

MandyMcAwesome

So if you miscarry, do they go arrest God? How do you prove intent when it comes to aborting a rape baby?

E
E

Can't believe I'm the first to say this, but how can a legitimately raped woman HAVE a fetus?! I thought...rape shut that down. So confused.

Hellcat

What I am struggling to understand is how exactly a live kid proves anything but DNA. How would the child prove either way whether a crime had been committed?

MilesofMountains

@Hellcat Well, in the case of statutory rape or incest, I can see how a baby could be useful evidence, but either way the aborted fetus is just as much evidence as a live one.

Hellcat

@MilesofMountains Thank you. I knew I was missing something--not that it makes a difference at all, of course!

Mingus_Thurber

Okay, so. Former abortion clinic worker here, and I have to say:

If a woman came in and told us, or even hinted, that she was there because of a rape or some other form of inhuman brutality, we were on that shit like a cheap suit on a duck.

If a girl under the age of consent came in, and told us that her boyfriend/impregnator/whatever was *over* the age of consent, off that report went to the proper authorities.

If a girl came in with a person who was willing to swear that the sex was consensual even though the male was 22 and the girl was 13, we let the courts handle it--after we'd determined that the thirteen-year-old, with greater maturity and thoughtfulness than I'd've been capable of, had decided that no, she really didn't want to terminate the pregnancy, and was willing to ride it out. . .

Jesus. Fucking. Grits. I've had a few beers, true, but awful bill is indeed awful. "Intent to destroy evidence" is a phrase that sounds so reasonable, but is already covered by existing laws and ethical standards, and so is SO TWISTED IN PRACTICE.

Springtime for Voldemort

And then no woman ever reported her rape to the police again. At the annual police party, the Chief thanked every single one of our men in blue for their success at getting rid of rape.

sox
sox

@Springtime for Voldemort :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

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senior1

The inversion of logic is what gets me. I thought these were the groups stridently insisting that abortion is murder? But then suddenly a fetus is an object? If you're going to use simplistic interpretations, you have to stick them.
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