Pornography – What is it good for?
Absolutely something or nothing.
sex, pornography, room for debate
Oh. This again.
@Jay Green Good God, y'all.
Three paragraphs into the first link and no, no, no, don't even put shit like this in front of me, I do not have time for the fucked upness.
OH AND GAIL DINES IS THE SECOND COLUMNIST. NO. NO. NO. GAIL DINES IS THE WORST AND SO COMPLETELY FULL OF SHIT I HAVE NO WORDS
@Porn Peddler Wait, what? That's one of the blandest articles I have ever seen in my life (about porn or literally any other subject).
@Porn Peddler I would rather read your rants about articles like this than the actual articles, so that is what I'm going to do.
@Porn Peddler I'm not really sure who Candida Royalle is, but she writes as if English is her fifth language and to practice sentence structure, she's been asked to write a basic composition on the topic of "The Pros and Cons of Pornography".
@Porn Peddler I encountered Gail Dines frequently at a former job, and she really, really is the worst. Just completely out of touch with real life, not to mention pushy and condescending.
@Decca Candida Royalle is actually an adult industry great, but "I don't believe in sex/porn addiction it's just a ~compulsion" set me off pretty badly. Also, people with poor body image/who have been sexually victimized should not watch porn? WHAT? WHATTTTTT THERE IS NO RIGHT WAY TO BE A SURVIVOR HOLY SHIT.
"You're only a victim of bad porn if you let yourself be" It's not all that easy to avoid triggering/upsetting/bad media in any format, not magazines, not books, not commercials, not porn.
@Daisy Razor It actually does my heart good to hear this. I'm glad she's a terrible person on top of heading up a pointless crusade.
(I'm actually walking away from this. I have a ton of reading to do this week/still trying to track down my awful professor/WRITING/SHOPPING/MAKIN A CAKE FOR A PARTY LATER)
@Porn Peddler OH OH she's the one who wrote Pornland? That book was terrible, hyperbolic, and poorly argued. I was angry at almost every page, and I suspect I still would've hated the book even if I had agreed with her on anything in it.
@Porn Peddler Honestly, I find it more triggering to be told that my porn preferences are someone related to my trauma. It's creepy and belittling and tends to send me into a spiral of self-doubt. Not so fun.
@Porn Peddler Candida Royalle the Theorist bums me out. Candida Royalle the Artist, I love, but Candida Royalle the Theorist? Yeeshk!
Ok, semi-related rant. I am so sick of people acting like they can’t listen to the opinions of those who disagree with them without having some kind of visceral and pained reaction. The world is full of varied opinions. Not everyone agrees with us all the time or on all issues. I truly don’t understand why more people can’t read something they disagree with, say “Hmm. I don’t agree, but it’s interesting to notice that some people feel this way” and maybe make a modicum of effort, once in a while, to understand why someone might not think the exact same way we do and contemplate what might have led that person to hold that perspective. It would be so boring (and kind of already is) if we only ever talk to people who share our own views.
@Ellie You probably should stay away from comment sections then, just saying.
@Ellie As someone obliquely in this industry, I think it's because we've heard these opinions before a thousand times and have already had plenty of time to mull them over. Gail Dines is notorious for being disrespectful and unwilling to debate on any real level, and it gets old after a while. I'm happy to engage in debate when I think it might go anywhere, but this one has been covered ad nauseum and I'm frankly just tired of it.
@Ellie When I, for example, read about male politicians and their opinions on what constitutes rape, I have a pretty pained visceral response. Or when three people in an online class all say that women hold the power in heterosexual relations because they get to withhold sex from their male partners in order to get what they want, that's pretty offensive on multiple levels and deeply upsetting to hear.
@Blackwatch Plaid Hi, thank you from a member of the outskirts of the sex industry.
@Blackwatch Plaid I can certainly understand feeling that way, but not all media is targeted at sociology majors or whatever; in fact, most isn't, so we should take the context into consideration - I think the general population probably hasn't heard these opinions a thousand times. I said above that I find these articles bland and generic, so if I were interested in the subject I would look for something more in-depth and researched, which I know is definitely possible to find. I'm just sick of the frequently encountered attitude "How dare anyone have this opinion."
@Ellie I just vomited while reading this objectionable comment.
@Ellie I have no problem with the general population researching these things and forming their own opinions. That said, I'm a little confused at how my and @Porn Peddler's personal visceral reactions equate to "how dare anyone have this opinion" (unless you're also referring to the comments on the articles themselves, which I haven't read).
@Ellie I'm sick of being told to coddle those who oppress and insult me.
@Ellie Also, the fact that most media isn't geared toward "sociology majors" sort of makes this worse, doesn't it? More insidious? Like the way media reinforces harmful standards of beauty and what have you?...
@Porn Peddler That's a good point and I agree that presenting more nuanced & science/research-based information in a way widely accessible to the public is always better.
@Ellie Am I the only person here who agrees with Ellie? I don't think either she or I are against people having strong opinions, I think it's (at least for me) more the sort of "OH HEAVENS FETCH ME MY SMELLING SALTS" melodrama that goes on when people (not you guys, not only about porn, I'm talking about In General) make a giant self-righteous deal about how they CAN'T POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND how ANYONE could POSSIBLY think this way (i.e., differently than they do.) I'm putting on my flameproof armor already, and I should point out that I'm NOT talking about reactions to those three idiotic Republican candidates who said horrible things about rape, I'm talking about the everyday occurrences of narrow-mindedness and hyperbole that happen on many, many issues on all sides of the political/social spectrum....
It's like, where I grew up, everybody and a half would gasp in horror if they found out a person (hi) wasn't religious. "OH MY GOD HOW CAN ANYONE THINK LIKE THAT?!" But, I mean, where I am now, in a very lefty piece of East Coast academia, people kind of get that same reaction FOR being religious. Both sides make a giant show of how SHOCKED! SHOCKED they are that someone has different views, there's this freaking Manichaean insistence that one's own side is Right and the others are Wrong, with absolutely no room for compromise or even listening to the opinions of someone who disagrees, because they've already written the other side off as hopelessly uneducated, out of touch, malicious or evil. Product of an entrenched two-party system further polarizing the entire country with each passing year? Problem with the educational system? Internet fatigue? Who knows? But I'm with Ellie in wishing that people (I AM TALKING TO RIGHT-WINGERS AS WELL AS LIBERALS) could just be a little bit more CIVIL in public discourse.
Egads, I thought I'd gotten over my election fatigue, now I'm relapsing.
@Countess Maritza Sorry guys for all the vehemence and all caps, way to not practice what I preach. I've been having a horribly depressing week or two and I'm way on edge.
@Countess Maritza Thanks - yes, this is exactly how I feel but you stated it in more detail. I agree it's a hard line because, as you say, some sentiments really ARE egregious (e.g. legitimate rape, that eleven year old girl who was gang raped and slut shamed, etc.) and I can't bring myself to say "This opinion is just as valid as yours!" but there are also some statements (e.g. "Abortion is murder") that I, personally, think it's better to hear and accept the differing viewpoint than to flip out, no matter how much I unequivocally disagree. But yeah, +1 to everything you wrote.
@Ellie Yeah, exactly. I take two unpopular opinions at once when I hold that Right and Wrong do exist in some absolute sense, but also that they are very, very, very rarely seen in the "mortal world." (as opposed to the world of the Forms? Plato get out of my head)
@Ellie Hm, also, I think it's a false dichotomy to say that we should be saying "This opinion is just as valid as yours" - because sometimes, it's basically not. I mean, the idea of a "valid opinion" is a tricky one, because freedom of conscience is obviously a thing, but some opinions are better supported by concrete fact than others. And some are more logically sound than others, but here is where it gets tricky - assuming one starts with the same set of first principles! So basically my method, that I tend to encourage more widespread use of, is to try to discern my debating opponent's first principles. (i.e. the conservative abortion opponent's first principle is more likely to be "abortion is murder of a human being" than "women need to be punished for having sex.") The first principle is what the argument derives from. If we don't even understand each other's first principles, how the hell can a meaningful debate ever happen? NONE of this requires declaring an opposing opinion to be equally true or valid as one's own, but it does require a certain intellectual respect to one's opponent to take their argument seriously enough to try to discern its "own terms," to try to debunk it within its own framework.
@Countess Maritza Yes; I think there's no way to realistically think that someone else's view that you strongly disagree with is "valid." I guess I more mean that we should recognize that those people probably consider our views the same way, and I'd like them to at least consider what I have to say for a moment, so I want to extend them the same courtesy of thinking seriously about what they have to say for a moment, not just rejecting it at the very first glance. Like, of course I think I'm right, but it's valuable to at least pause to remind ourselves that the other person legit thinks he's right too and isn't actually trying to sound crazy or literally wants to burn women at the stake or whatever. Sorry not to be more articulate.
@Ellie But have people really not heard Dines' view before? That porn is misogynistic, that porn creates a culture of misogyny, that porn will make your boyfriend emotionally unavailable and even rapey, that everything is getting worse? Dines doesn't offer anything that we haven't already heard from Dworkin, MacKinnon, CNN, Rachel Green, and every conservative politician who's in need of some pro-women cred. Theory-wise, Dines is not offering people anything they haven't heard before. In fact, in terms of understanding why some feminists are anti-porn, Dines routinely does a horrible job of explaining the thought process there. There are other theorists who don't have the allergy to nuance, specificity, and evidence that Dines does, and when I'm confused about what's up with anti-porn feminists, I go read them.
This is unrelated to the articles, but last night I went to a stand-up comedy show that took place in a really upscale sex toy/porn shop, and I learned that there is nothing quite like listening to comedy while surrounded on all sides by things like a fake, life-size anus/vagina combo and 10 inch dildos that were "molded from a real, erect human penis." Even if the comedians aren't funny, there is humor in the situation!
Okay, so I know 'pinners are generally pro-porn but, there are some of us who aren't and despite the previous comments I'm willing to position myself as part of the minority. Here is something to think about:
Porn is Orwellian double think. The pro-pornography lobby wants you to believe simultaneously that porn is fantasy/acting and that women really enjoy what is happening to them on camera/not acting. If you hold pornography to be fantasy with actors involved, then you must question whether or not you can know if the actors consent to the acts within porn. That is, if it is their JOB to say "yes" and they are acting, then how do you know if they really want to perform those acts? You don't (and we have plenty of examples of exited women who speak out about the pressure to agree to things you don't want to do and how the "contracts" are not respected- once they are in the act, there is no way to stop the other actors from just doing whatever they want). And as soon as you acknowledge that you don't really know if the people involved are truly consenting, then you must acknowledge the possibility that you are watching a filmed rape.
At the same time, the pro-porn arguments hold that it is not acting but that the actresses actually enjoy the violence in porn and they really do love distended anuses, ejaculate in their eyes, being penetrated by animals and partially drowned in toilets. When they are crying and begging for someone to stop- they actually LOVE what is happening to them... but wait, they aren't acting. So that crying is what? Or are they acting? in which case, are they really enjoying it? Because the job of a porn actor is to act as if they really like it, even if they don't. It's doublethink to accept the position of the pornographers that porn is about fantasy, and the women involved in it are both acting and enjoying what they do.
@sintaxis Yeeeah, this is why I personally dislike mainstream porn. Well that and the fact that I prefer still photos of hot men to videos of more or less awkward fucking.
@sintaxis Leaving aside the idea that distended anuses and beastiality are the content of most porn, crying in a BDSM context can absolutely be a positive thing. I've personally made submissive partners cry before and it was wonderful. As confusing as it may seem, some people genuinely like pain and degradation (in a consensual context of course). As far as the it's a fantasy/it's pleasurable thing goes- I think it's a false dichotomy. Again, within the context of BDSM and BDSM porn, acting out a fantasy is a big part of the fun. Crying and saying "no, please, stop", is a Huge turn on for some people, including porn performers. All that in mind, I agree that the industry needs reform and has harbored some less than reputable types. Still, I would hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater by abolishing the whole thing.
@Blackwatch Plaid Yes, but you are missing the point that if these women are PAID to say yes to acts they would otherwise not enjoy, then their consent is not really the same as when you are with a partner. People in porn are paid to pretend to enjoy/agree to what they are doing- whether it be fluffy soft porn in a room full of pillows or hardcore BDSM. Either way, there is no way for the viewer to verify whether or not the people they are watching are consenting.
@sintaxis I was ready to respond super calmly to this until I got to "penetrated by animals." That does not happen in any law-abiding part of my industry and trust me, more of it is law-abiding than you think because laws come down HARD on "vice" industries.
It's not doublethink for me to say that consent is not binary and to say that while it is a job and does entail acting, the performers consent to that acting. True consent may mean Asa Akira saying, "If I were at home with a bunch of dicks at my disposal I might not want to be gangbanged today, but I am at work and it is my job to be part of this gangbang. I am okay with my contractual obligation to do this! Gangbang time!" You can both act and enjoy your job simultaneously. Performance can be enjoyable. Once again: consent is not a binary.
Particularly for kink scenes where there is crying and screaming and begging...kink is a thing. People enjoy pain and domination. Some people engage in that sort of activity in their personal lives and they cry and scream and beg and maybe on set they are legit crying but making sure to angle their faces or asses or genitals to the camera. Like...what is the problem here?
The way to verify that the people you are watching actually consent? PAY FOR YOUR PORN. Pay for your porn from reputable companies that employ outspoken, intelligent people and operate in a spirit of egalitarianism and sex positivity. Get a subscription to burning angel, shit.
(ALSO, there are a lot of issues in the porn industry. Of course there are. I just have issues with the particular objections raised here.)
(or get in on the crashpad series, or SmartAss productions, or this is not a thread about good porn companies im done)
@Porn Peddler Mhm. I think I have an issue with saying that someone who is consenting for pay is not really consenting. If that is the case then like... all work is forced work? I guess I haven't yet heard a convincing argument that sex work should be treated differently than other kinds of work in that respect.
I feel like there's a difference between kink scenes and the making-her-cry stuff that you sometimes see in hardcore porn though.
@Emmanuelle Cunt I had written out a long response saying basically that, but less clearly, so thank you. We can argue about whether or not porn stars like their work until the cows come home (although the ones I know personally say that they do), but that's not the point. They're all adults and allowed to make the decision that's best for them. I never liked working at a Chili's, but I did it anyway because it was right for me at that time- I don't see why sex work should be any different.
@sintaxis Okay, I want to kind of go through & address everything in your comment, but I'm just going to cop out & focus on this part:
"violence in porn... distended anuses, ejaculate in their eyes, being penetrated by animals and partially drowned in toilets"
Maybe you are referring to a specific type of porn, but if you're indicating that ALL porn is like this? it's not. There's many, many different kinds of porn & some porn doesn't even feature paid "actors" per se, because it's amateur porn. Sorry if this sounds condescending or something, but I often see pornography painted with this big, evil brush.
Anyway. I'm not even going to get into your consent argument; a few other people already summed up my thoughts on that.
@fabel No I'm not saying that ALL porn is like that. A large part of porn is like that though, and do we really need to debate what kinds are the most prevalent? This shit exists, and it is a problem with the porn industry.
@Blackwatch Plaid Because "sex work" has more FEMALE-specific harms than working at Chili's? Because there are more physical health hazards? Because it's willfully ignorant to compare sex work with low wage jobs that are equal-opportunity exploitation?
@Porn Peddler Paying for your porn does not ensure that the participants are not coerced into it. It just ensures that the producers make money off of it. There are many women who have spoken out about being raped on camera and having that sold, e.g. Linda Lovelace.
@sintaxis Sorry those are all separate!
Anyway, I'm bowing out of the convo now because I know I will get piled on as anti-porn for non-religious reasons is an extremely minority position amongst liberals and progressives, and I have work!
Thanks for voicing your responses though- I just wanted to put it out there that there are other positions that are also feminist, liberal/progressive, but anti-porn industry for those who might not be otherwise exposed to it! :)
@sintaxis ...pay for it from companies that nevermind.
@sintaxis Actual sex workers would disagree. See
Really, though, I know quite a few of them and they by and large want their work to be viewed like any other job.
@sintaxis I think you're right that there's a legitimate difference between sex work and other jobs in terms of consent-vs.-exploitation, just because we care a lot more about consent in a sexual context. Agreeing to come in on my day off out of fear that I'll get fired sucks; agreeing to have (not-previously-agreed-upon) on-camera sex out of fear that I'll get fired sucks plus presents serious issues of consent.
But I also think that "I agree to do this, because I will get paid" is a legitimate form of consent. Most people's sex lives are full of stuff that we do not because it thrills us, but for other reasons -- because it thrills our partner and we're happy to make them happy, or because even though we're tired and not horny we really really want to get pregnant and now's the time, or whatever -- but that is still consensual. I don't think introducing money and contracts into that equation breaks that type of consent.
@sintaxis I have no dog in this fight, but I just thought of a counter argument to your quote "Because there are more physical health hazards? Because it's willfully ignorant to compare sex work with low wage jobs that are equal-opportunity exploitation?" I know you were responding specifically to a comment about working at Chili's (I assume included because it was a personal experience for the commenter). But, what about people who work on oil rigs? They are mostly men, probably skewing more male than sex workers skew female even (so, not equal-opportunity), and face far more physical danger as a part of their job. However, no one is arguing that they are somehow unfairly coerced into working there - the majority of them do it for the money, not because they would otherwise be climbing around on oil rigs for fun. Obviously it's not comparable in every way - but working at a gender-skewed job that presents health hazards is not exclusive to sex workers.
@sintaxis No, you can't ever truly know that the porn you watch wasn't coerced. Even when performers vow that they consented, you don't have a crystal ball and can't tell if they're Linda Lovelace, pre-Ordeal.
But that's true of a lot of life. You can't ever really know that a sweater you purchased wasn't using slave labor. You can't ever really know if that local, organic, free-range Kosher brand is actually local, organic, free-range, and Kosher. You can't ever really know that the company you work for isn't skimming off your pension to pay off the exec's personal debt. You can't ever really know if your sister's wife is actually raping her at night. You can't ever really know if your significant other is cheating on you. So the question becomes, what is an acceptable risk to you?
@Porn Peddler "Issues" like thousands of women being abused, permanently injured, trafficked, raped, drugged, killed, suiciding... yeah, just "issues". Right.
@highfivesforall So I totally forgot about this thread a while ago, but highfives, I wanted to respond to you specifically! When I say specific female harms, I mean actual harms that result from being female. The physical body of female. Not gendered as a woman. So, take for example oil rigs- this is an old standby example of "well men have it bad too!" but when you actually look at it with a critical eye, any person would have it bad on an oil rig. Women have been excluded from these jobs because of sexism. If you flip the sexes in this job, women would be equally at danger! However, in jobs that revolve around sex, when you flip the sexes, men are not at an equal risk. Female bodies physiologically have higher risk of contracting STDs, for example. Or there's the big one: the unique, female-only harm of pregnancy. It's not part of your job at Chili's to put yourself at risk for pregnancy.
@Doctress Julia I just wanted to say hi and introduce myself! Nice to see another porn-critical woman out there :D
As an attempt to make this comment section a happier place, I would like to recommend Wolf Hudson and Jiz Lee's new scene together. It's available on his website and is. so. hot. There's gender-bending (fishnets and makeup and heels, oh my!), lots of strap-on sex, and ridiculous chemistry between them. And it's made by queer, feminist folks who will have no part of Dines' abolitionist bullshit. Go watch it.
@Blackwatch Plaid JIZ LEE JIZ LEE JIZ LEE JIZ LEE JIZ LEEEEEEEE
@Blackwatch Plaid also who are you, why haven't we hairpin met before, you are clearly my bro(sephine)
@Porn Peddler Riiight? I feel like we probably know some of the same people in the blogosphere (Am I allowed to have a visceral reaction to that word? Because I do.) Anyway, I live in the Boston area, so if you're ever anywhere nearby, we should get a drink or something.
@Porn Peddler I'm gonna tweet at ya right now, actually.
@Blackwatch Plaid Kind of want drinks with you tonight, but I live in the Western New York region. SAD.
@Porn Peddler Visit me immediately. Somehow.
@Blackwatch Plaid In the words of George Takei, oh my!
I think I'm the only person in the liberal-leaning half of the Western world who doesn't watch porn. I've tried and I just felt squicked out and embarrassed and voyeuristic. Do I have Problems? (I mean, aside from all the ones I make so blatantly obvious every time I open my mouth/touch my keyboard?)
@Countess Maritza Yeah, no, I'm with you on that one. It usually just makes me feel kind of tired (and at its worst, like I never want to have sex ever again). Written stuff is nice, but even the amateur video stuff doesn't really do it for me.
@TheBourneApproximation I do kind of love nineteenth-century written erotica. Someone had a blog that used to do "Victorian Porn Fridays" that were just the best thing ever - simultaneously hot and extremely, unintentionally funny.
@Countess Maritza Googling this...laaaterrrr....
@Countess Maritza I haven't been into any I've seen either. It's either boring, gross, or outright unpleasant for me to watch because of how the women are being treated, or with the "lady-friendly" stuff, just plain boring. I definitely prefer books. But that's me, and I don't really object to anyone else's porn preferences as long as it's not overtly misogynistic.
@Countess Maritza Being "liberal" doesn't mean you automatically accept porn. You can be socially progressive and still find porn very deeply problematic.
@sintaxis It's not a political thing for me, it's personal preference.
@Countess Maritza I've always been really disinterested in watching people have sex, and I've tried watching a bunch of different stuff. I've made multiple good faith efforts! I do have one thing that I like reading about and watching videos of once in a while, which I think counts, but nothing involving the kind of sex I like having. I like the idea of it a lot and I actually find the idea of guys watching porn really hot but I've never been into it myself for some reason. Eh.
@Countess Maritza No; I've never watched it at all.
@Countess Maritza NO, you're awake.
Can we all just agree that the 'Room for Debate' feature is shite, though? In my view, largely because there's no way to express adequate nuance in the limited space the format makes available.
Of course, when the debaters are bad writers or just have straight-up bad ideas, that makes it even worse.
@Rock and Roll Ken Doll They're usually terrible writers. Or the editors will set it up so 5 of 6 have the exact same view and the one guy expressing the opposing opinion necessarily comes off looking stupid.
Also, a "debate" isn't six people standing in opposite corners of a (...hexagonal?) room shouting into the air. Many small opinion pieces in one place is not a dialogue.
@Countess Maritza Many moons ago I read a series of books on controversial topics where each author wrote a 20-40 page essay on his/her view, and then each author responded to the other views. This was AFTER they had all gotten together for a couple days of meeting each other and discussing their opinions. I feel like that's ideal... and yet totes burdensome for the average reader? WHAT IS THE SOLUTION??
I find it annoying that "porn debates" are always only about video porn with actors. There are a lot of kinds of porn out there. MY FRIEND'S porn collection is entirely of the drawn with a pen variety. No actors of any kind are involved, consent and enjoyment are non-issues. It's not to say that therefore this type of porn is better than any other kind, just that with the staggering amount of things in the world that people will jerk off to, it's disappointing that this kind of conversation has such tunnel vision about what porn is.
@Bunburying THIS, yes, this is what I was attempting to get at in my earlier comment. My frustration with most porn conversations/debates is that it relies on everyone assuming porn is one type of thing.
@Bunburying When I first started watching porn, what horrified me was not the acts on screen but the violation of the actors' privacy: their bodily functions were going to be out there eternally on pixels for all to see. So maybe I was weird. Eventually I figured out that not everyone shared my obsession with privacy. But the first clips I felt comfortable watching were cartoon ones. I still would prefer that kind of thing to live-action porn, except that it's so limited and hard to find. I prefer almost every kind of porn to live action: written, drawn, even some absurd sound clips I heard once from the '70's. So where does YOUR FRIEND find this pen-drawn porn?
As a non-sociology major I'll say this: porn is a fact of life, but watching it most often feels like a chore. All of it, the mainstream, the edgy, the amateur and the multimillion-dollar productions. I can imagine porn that doesn't suck but I've practically never seen it. If it's not boring it's disgusting, if it's not disgusting it's annoying, if it's not annoying it's depressing, and if it's not depressing it's boring. Even watching the stuff I can enjoy still feels like work. There's always some lady-boner-killer to filter out. Add to that the delight of being told that if I don't enjoy what I'm supposed to enjoy, I'm oppressing the ones who do enjoy it. Fuck that. I'd rather be knitting.
@Fflora "There's always some lady-boner-killer to filter out."
My sentiments exactly. There's a lot that I like, but there are also a lot of things that just ruin the experience for me. I have a collection of porn video clips that I like, but there aren't many, which means I quickly get bored with them. Everyone has such wildly variant ideas of what is sexy and what is not.
I initially read "pornography" as "philosophy" in this post, for some reason.
(I guess in the end they're both all about masturbation.)
"You’re only a victim of bad porn if you let yourself be."
Well, thanks for that, Candida.
@Verity - I feel like you can replace "bad porn" with pretty much any phrase. (and it's still a wrong and shitty thing to say)
I find that there is alot of different views based on the comments from your blog, this only happens when someone writes on a toical subject in a way that creates discussion..well done!
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