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Wednesday, August 29, 2012

172

A Pie for Todd Akin

Previously: The Pussy Riot Pie.

Ann Friedman should have cleared this chart with Lindy West.



172 Comments / Post A Comment

okaycrochet

I think we throw this particular pie into his face, right? Or does that make him seem too likable?
(The Kid reference, it's happening)

fondue with cheddar

@okaycrochet How about if we use a giant Trivial-Pursuit style pie with lots of hard plastic pointy edges? But covered in whipped cream so he doesn't see it coming?

Jill_Tata

contagious! ♥'s@k

olivebee

Going clockwise around the pie, I was like "ha ha, ha, ohhhh :(" because the "affects wife/daughter/etc." one is something that I think about constantly. Like, I am always grumbling about how extreme right-wingers can't be swayed no matter what and they are incapable of thinking about it in terms of happening in their own lives. If they can't relate, they hate. But when you bring anything like that up to them, "Imagine if it happened to your daughter," for example, they just get all flustered and then....still don't change their mind. UUGHHGHGUGH.

dj pomegranate

@olivebee Or they do what Tom Head did and say that they *have* been through it, because
rape is basically the same as making premarital babies.

dj pomegranate

@dj pomegranate Sorry, it's not Tom Head! He's the one who thinks that Texas will rise up in arms if Obama's reelected. The one who thinks rape is the same as premarital sex is Tom Smith!

It's really hard to keep all these loony toons straight.

olivebee

@dj pomegranate Haha, I was about to correct you because if there is anything I know, it's about misogynistic Pennsylvania politicians. I am originally from PA, and my mom lives there, and she and I have weekly phone calls lamenting the disgusting men (and occasionally women) that ooze from the pulpits of our beloved state.

Faintly Macabre

@dj pomegranate Yeah, I was going to say that 20% is wrong, because sometimes they'll say they've had a rape in their family but they really mean a woman got pregnant out of wedlock.

@olivebee Haallooo, fellow Pennsylvanian! Before this, I just smiled at Tom Smith posters I saw, since I had a friend named Tom Smith when I was little (in PA!). Now I want to burn them.

KatieBarTheDoor

@olivebee Someone posted a picture of a bunch of republican rape quotes on facebook, and the one that most made me want to punch my computer was a Texan candidate for governor who said "Rape is kind of like the weather. If it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it."

RELAX AND ENJOY IT

Veronica Mars is smarter than me

@KatieBarTheDoor NOOOOOOOOOOO

olivebee

@KatieBarTheDoor He probably also believes wife=property.

Xanthophyllippa

@olivebee If you ever want to become so flamingly mad that you spontaneously set off a giant fireball that torches everything within a 50-mile radius, read the introduction to Randy Thornhill/Craig Palmer's A Natural History of Rape, in which they tell some story about a young...friend? relative? who was raped and having a tough time recovering until they told her, "it's evolutionary; men can't help it" and then she WAS ALL BETTER.

I may have paraphrased that story a little, but not much. Shit like that is what drove me out of a Gender Studies minor for my Ph.D.

(ETA: Also, the characterizations of that book as "science history" are an insult to historians of science everywhere. It's sociobiology at its worst, plain and simple.)

packedsuitcase

@Xanthophyllippa and @KatieBarTheDoor I think I am going to go throw up now. Rage. All of the rage at these idiots, all of the time.

Hot Doom

@olivebee Ugh, it makes me SO full of rage and SO sad.
rant start/ I made the mistake of getting involved in a FB debate on my friend's wall. My friend, who is a liberal pastor in TN (oxymoron, basically)put up something about Ryan calling rape just another form of conception and some jackass commented that rape is only an issue trotted out by liberals at election time, with other jackasses chiming in and saying 'well IT IS just another type of conception, what's the big deal" and p.s. Planned Parenthood is evil. So I very calmly said what the big deal was, that rape is always an issue, and what if Ryan looked your wife/daughter/mother in the eye and said 'look, your rape= another way to get pregnant, NBD', and no, PP provides vital healthcare to millions, with abortions making up a very small percentage of their services. And then, like you say, no one responded to any of those points, they just fired themselves into a shitstorm about why PP murders babies and how I should write to Rebecca Kiessling who is the product of a rape and tell her I wish she was dead, why is it not ok for a man to rape a woman but it is ok for the woman to murder a fetus (that's a verbatim quote, btw) blah blah BLAH.' And I took my anxiety pills and stopped reading comments because it was all TOO INSANE. /end rant

Xanthophyllippa

@LolaLaBalc I will drop friends from Facebook based upon the shit THEIR friends say in comments. Of course, I only have 90 Facebook friends, and comment wars like this are pretty much why.

Rosebudddd

@KatieBarTheDoor I grew up in Texas, was at U.T. Austin at that time and I remember that one well. Clayton Williams, running for governor in 1990. But Ann Richards soundly defeated him. Sadly, that was the last time my home state elected someone sane.

Blushingflwr

But only if Zeus was in swan form. If he was in golden shower form, you were asking for it.

Megasus

@Blushingflwr What about bull form? Is that legit or not?

meetapossum

@Megano! Then you shouldn't have had all that wine.

PistolPackinMama

Wouldn't the golden shower be associated with the wine?

(uh...)

Blushingflwr

@Megano! Maybe. Were you in a wooden cow at the time? (yes, I know, mixing my stories)

Or, you know, it's called the "Rape of Europa", not the "Legitimate Rape of Europa".

meetapossum

@Blushingflwr Well, if you were in a wooden cow, you were definitely asking for it. Obviously, since you got pregnant.

Megasus

@Blushingflwr He turned me into a cow WITHOUT ASKING

Ophelia

@Megano! But what were you wearing at the time?

Megasus

@Ophelia My CROWN.

Xanthophyllippa

@Megano! "Cow" has some of the same letters as "crown." You were definitely asking for it.

TARDIStime

@Xanthophyllippa
Also, the cow he turned into was wooden - which is what all dildoes were made out of at the time! He didn't splinter inside your vag, so you should have relaxed and enjoyed it, Europa, you silly billy!

Vera Knoop

@TARDIStime There's a wooden cow, but it's a different story. Zeus turned into a flesh-and-blood bull to rape Europa.
The wooden cow story is that Minos, king of Crete, was supposed to sacrifice a particularly fine bull from his flock. He refused, and one of the gods (Poseidon? I don't remember) got angry and cursed him, and since the Greek gods were about as enlightened in their gender politics as modern Republicans, he took it out on Minos' wife, Pasiphae. The god caused her to become sexually obsessed with the bull to the point that she convinced Daedalus to build a wooden cow for her to hide in. And that's where baby Minotaurs come from!
And some dildoes were ivory or leather, which is more conceptually unpleasant but probably less uncomfortable.

PistolPackinMama

@Vera Knoop I love that the pintariat know their mythology. Said she who was about to assign Plato to a bunch of students. <3 <3

Vera Knoop

@PistolPackinMama
Ooh! Which one, and for what sort of class, if you don't mind me asking?
<3 right back atcha; your comments always make me smile.

PistolPackinMama

@Vera Knoop Several books from The Republic. It's the base text for this curriculum project:

http://reacting.barnard.edu/curriculum/published-games/athens

And thanks! <3 <3 knoopie

meetapossum

I just wanted you guys to know that I pulled out my copy of the Odyssey just due to this thread. And maybe I will re-read the Metamorphoses. <3 u, mythology.

Vera Knoop

@PistolPackinMama That sounds awesome!

PistolPackinMama

@Vera Knoop It is. It really, really is.

hands_down

Don't forget white woman/black man.

hands_down

@hands_down feeling sweaty and weird about having typed that. Just want to make it clear it's from an imagined GOP perspective, not my personal viewpoint!

olivebee

@hands_down Don't worry! After reading it, I immediately heard it in my head coming from the voice of a middle-aged, Southern white man.

ETA: And now I sound like I'm stereotyping middle-aged, Southern white men as racist, but I just meant that most of the ignorant GOP men saying these kinds of things are male, Southern, and white.

nate@twitter

@hands_down @olivebee lol @ liberal handwringing.

UPDATE: Ugh, I'm really sorry, I shouldn't stereotype about liberal handwringing.

PistolPackinMama

@hands_down or Christian woman and [non-Christian] woman here. But if it's the other way around... nope. Not legit.

(just thought I'd bring some xenophobia to the discussion since they mesh so well in our political landscape)

theharpoon

@olivebee [just here to point out that Paul Ryan is not from the South] [ neither is Tom Smith] [also I don't consider Texas part of the South south] [ basically this problem is all over the place and I wish it was only in the South]

[ps South is a weird word when you type it a bunch]

stonefruit

I don't know her personally, but I have a feeling Lindy West would approve of this rape joke.

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

But was it a forceful removal of the chastity belt? Because otherwise, I don't think that slice fits on this chart in most Republicans' minds...

dj pomegranate

@I'm Right on Top of that, Rose Yeah, I was gonna say...storming a parapet is pretty manly. Probably seeing that display of manly manliness will inspire fair ladies to take off those chastity belts and let down their hair!

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

@dj pomegranate Like, I had to run up all these stairs and fight a bunch of dudes. I have earned what lies beneath said chastity belt, whether she thinks so or not.

Blushingflwr

@I'm Right on Top of that, Rose Well, plus, obviously she had to take the chastity belt off in order for him to rape her. So unless he took it off with a blowtorch, she was totally consenting. (Remember that horrible Italian case with the tight jeans?)

dj pomegranate

@Blushingflwr Even if he DID take it off with a blowtorch, that's some serious manly manliness there (men! fire! weapons!) and, after all, what lady isn't won over by a dude with enough persistence, amirite? Basically you can't lose with the ladies if you're a marauding invader!

Faintly Macabre

@Blushingflwr Unless he used a chainsaw or a locksmith!

dj pomegranate

@Blushingflwr Also oh my god that tight jeans case. Fresh wave of anger washing over me.

Blushingflwr

@dj pomegranate Some people say stalker, others say persistent.

Megasus

TOO DEPRESSINGLY TRUE

Inconceivable!

Also it really bothers me that it seems that most Republicans/Akin supporters think that "legitimate rape," the phrase, is the main reason we are all so upset. I am equally upset by his total lack of biological knowledge, and unless I missed something, his half-assed apology didn't address that at all.

Beatrix Kiddo

@Inconceivable! I agree. The phrase itself was the last straw after years of misinformed, misogynist idiocy that everyone was already pissed about.

wee_ramekin

@Inconceivable! Yup. This man is on the Committee on Science, Space and Technology in the House of Representatives. This man decides where and if federal funding goes to scientific research.

Lu2
Lu2

@Inconceivable! --Yes, this part of it was what I continued to hold in my mind as the kerfuffle blew up, and I was a little disappointed to see that his utter ignorance went virtually unaddressed after a certain amount of time. I mean, the man is making LAWS about BODIES he doesn't underSTAND. Based on his childish opinions and ignorant hearsay!

themmases

@Beatrix Kiddo When I got my first outraged email from one of the organizations that always ask me to sign petitions, I was honestly confused because I thought someone already said that months ago and they were just now getting around to it.

MissMushkila

@Inconceivable! I'm mad about how everyone keeps talking about rape exceptions LIKE THAT IS EVEN A POSSIBLE THING. How would you legislate it? In practice, rape and health exceptions usually are ignored, just like they aren't utilized in the Hyde amendment.

And yet we are going around being like "oh, he doesn't believe in an exception for rape, and apparently missed biology class HOW EVIL" when as far as I'm concerned what he said is effectively equivalent to everyone who says "I want to ban abortion except in cases of rape, incest, and health of the mother"

dj pomegranate

@MissMushkila Aaaaahhhhhh that's exactly the problem with all the exceptions (rape, incest, health.) If all other abortions are banned, the burden of proof is on the victim. If performing an abortion is a crime except in these rare cases, presumably doctors who do it will always be suspected of criminal activity. What doctor is going to perform an abortion because the fetus was a product of rape when rape is ALREADY under-reported, under-prosecuted and notoriously hard to prove in court? When you could be arrested and charged with murder?! "No abotions, with the exception of rape and incest" is, in effect, "No abortions, ever, with the exception of really, really brave doctors."

Exceptions are really a winning strategy for the GOP though! They get to look sympathetic while being totally not sympathetic at all.

cuminafterall

@dj pomegranate They don't even LOOK sympathetic these days-- there are no exceptions at all in the anti-abortion plank of their party platform.

dj pomegranate

@cuminafterall OH THAT'S TRUE. *weeps*

Corrected: "Exceptions are a winning strategy for GOPers trying hard to look sympathetic when they are speaking to other unsympathetic people who are also trying to look sympathetic."

Blushingflwr

@cuminafterall At least that's consistent.

I'm pro-choice, I've had an abortion myself. But if your policy is "we believe that fetuses are people too, and thus abortion should be illegal", when you put in an exception for rape/incest, you say that there are times when you don't actually believe that fetuses are people too, and that really you're just uncomfortable with women making choices about their bodies and their families.

I mean, I think that people who won't make exceptions are wrong, but at least they're consistent.

Banana dance

@wee_ramekin WHAT?!?!
that kinda explains everything.

living internationally

I find myself getting all hot and bothered about this and then I remember that the views of this guy are essentially law in Ireland. And then my head explodes and I decide to either a)never go home or b)run for office.

large__marge

Ugh, the reddit slice is so true. I just don't know how to look away once the Men's Rights Brigade (tm) comes tromping on in. To everything.

Aeroplane

@large__marge The "ask a rapist" thread was probably the most disgusting thing I've ever read in my life.

TheBourneApproximation

@large__marge The Internet Dude's Council has declared your rape...ILLEGITIMATE. Also, they find that you totally shouldn't be offended! *GAVEL*

whateverlolawants

@Aeroplane Oh my god. I will never, ever visit that. Disgusting.

@TheBourneApproximation Or, "You can be offended, but it doesn't matter because you're a stupid woman and what happened wasn't wrong and was your fault." I'm pretty sure that's how they'd judge most of the assaults and rapes I know of personally. And it makes me sick.

OhMarie

@large__marge Right? And the 6/10 thing is EVEN MORE TRUE...they're basically the worst.

faience

@large__marge I have a co-worker who often starts an anecdote with "you've heard of reddit, right?" and so far it's all been pretty innoculous stuff but Im just waiting for the day some MRA stuff comes spewing out. He is a young'un and I do like him (we are both new on the job and so far hes my favorite co-worker) and we share a lot of shifts. I've been mentally girding myself for the day that I have to learn him something about patriarchy.

The Lady of Shalott

@large__marge Most slices of the Internet are so weirdly, depressingly misogynistic. Like, if you bring up the concept of rape in general, the Men's Rights Brigade will start telling you about how SOME WOMEN FALSELY REPORT RAPES so rape statistics are useless! And if you're offended by being catcalled SOME WOMEN LIKE THAT! And if you were raped YOU DESERVED IT BY PUTTING YOURSELF IN A DANGEROUS SITUATION!

It makes me want to just bang my head against the wall until I die.

fondue with cheddar

@The Lady of Shalott Nevermind the fact that there are most likely far fewer women who falsely report rapes than women who DON'T report rapes at all. Ugh.

RK Fire

@large__marge: Ah the MRA stuff! Honestly, I am on reddit but I mostly stick to Game of Thrones, ASOIAF, the lady subreddits, and joke fitness ones. I've only heard of them but I tend to ignore the misogyny and ethnic prejudice on the site because otherwise I would just go nuts.

Lustful Cockmonster

@large__marge FYI since it is related to this thread...apparently President Obama is on Reddit doing an AMA right now...

RK Fire

@Grumplestiltskin: That is going to go crazy. On the flipside, people generally asked reasonable questions during TNC's AMA, so hopefully one can stay vigilant and downvote the more absurd questions to oblivion.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@jen325
Oh man, the flatness of the answers verifies that it is actually the President!

dj pomegranate

@josiahg I want a Hairpinner to ask a question about reproductive healthcare to Obama on Reddit.

Lustful Cockmonster

@dj pomegranate I would happily take this on if I understood Reddit or how it works at all. It just looks like a mess to me.

dj pomegranate

@Grumplestiltskin Right? It makes me dizzy.

fondue with cheddar

@Grumplestiltskin Yeah...I just wait until it's done and read all the answers that say "President Obama".

Nutmeg

@The Lady of Shalott I was telling this D-Bag I used to be friends with about how freaked out I got when some guy followed me halfway home telling me all how he wanted to fuck me, and D-Bag mansplained how that was why it was so hard to be a man, because women don't trust you when you JUST want to have sex with them! YES I AM SO SORRY I GET IT NOW

Bloodrocuted

@Nutmeg That is a terrifying experience. I cannot believe the D-Bag thought that that was a good time to start complaining instead of learning, not to mention missing your point!
Last Monday, a Chemistry partner told me about a party, and girls were teases (less polite), because they would never be alone with him in a room. Two hours and twenty minutes angry whispering about rape culture to "well that's not me" and "I don't do that". ... My English went so bad with frustration.

whateverlolawants

@Bloodrocuted @Nutmeg How can they not listen to you and at least have the decency to not start complaining when you tell them what it's like?! It drives me insane. The level of entitlement is sky-high.

wee_ramekin

You guys, I am so glad this posted today. I have been looking for a post on the Hairpin where I can unburden myself about the federal district court's latest decision that allows Texas to cut off all state funding for Planned Parenthood centers involved in their Women's Health Program. This program covers low-income women who aren't covered by Medicaid, but who don't have insurance (the working poor).

I cried on my way home in the car yesterday when I found this out. I feel like someone just spit in my face and called me a second-class citizen. I mean, I'm already queer, for fuck's sake, so I know that makes me a walking target in fucking Texas, but this. THIS. I thought that once shit got to a federal level, Texas would get smacked down. Instead, a panel of three judges just deprived ~ 55,000 women of their annual healthcare because they get it at Planned Parenthood.

I can't even, you guys. I just can't even. I am so. fucking. tired. of having to apologize for my fucking existence.

Veronica Mars is smarter than me

@wee_ramekin UGH. I did not hear about this but UGH. Commiseration is all I can offer?

whateverlolawants

@wee_ramekin We don't have to apologize. We've always been here -- the female-bodied, the queer, the poor, the immigrants, the ill, the marginalized -- and we're people just like everyone else, and some people can't fucking deal with that. That is their fucking problem... that is, it SHOULD be, but yet we keep ending up with all the shit just because they can't deal.

MissMushkila

@wee_ramekin Well I know where my monthly symbolic donation of $20.00 is going this week. (small due to unemployment, not lack of regard)

I'm Right on Top of that, Rose

@wee_ramekin You don't have to apologize for it here. I'm sorry your feelings are rightly hurt. It's un-fucking-fair. And as a queer lady in a similarly unforgiving state, let me say that you're not alone in your sadness. What's happening is not OK.

Woman Laughing Alone With Boas

@wee_ramekin I completely empathize. I paired hearing that unfortunate news with reading this depressing article about what happened when Planned Parenthood was defunded in a Tennessee county, and those funds given to a faith-based family planning service instead. Basically, people stopped getting their care at all, because the place they used to go closed, and they wouldn't or couldn't go to these other places. (DUH.)

I seriously fucking do not understand. I mean, state's rights and shit, or something but what? How can anyone legally justify defunding an organization based on their providing a legal medical procedure? And in the case of Tennessee, GIVE THE MONEY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE OPENLY RELIGIOUSLY AFFILIATED.

I want to nail that article to office door of everyone in the Capitol building. I want to flood Rick Perry's house with it Hagrid-style. But the sad fucking thing about living in Texas is that I know my representatives won't care, won't change their minds or their policies. If I have any energy left at the end of a given day, I spend most of it fantasizing about moving to Iceland.

I love my home here and I don't want to leave it, partially because it's impractical, partially because IT'S MINE TOO, and partially because I feel like that's what these people in power want us to do, and I CAN'T LET THEM WIN. But that just leaves me feeling so helpless.

wee_ramekin

@Woman Laughing Alone With Boas

Yes, to ALL of your last two paragraphs! I live in Austin, so I'm normally surrounded by this big, liberal, happy bubble where folks don't equate being pro-choice with being an actual murderer.

Part of the reason I broke down yesterday was from reading the comments on HuffPo that were made by people who agree with me. Because a bunch of them were snidely saying stuff like "Jesus Christ, women. Why don't you just VOTE these people out of office? Any intelligent woman needs to move the heck out of Texas!". And, okay. I'm from New England. I get it. I probably used to make those comments too. I know they're in jest. BUT...I do vote. It doesn't do a fucking thing in a state that has gerrymandered voting districts beyond any possible contortion of rationality. The stranglehold that the good-old-boy network and religious groups have on this state's legislature seems completely unbreakable. AGH THE FUCKING SOUTH!!!!!!!

Fuck. I have lived here for seven years. I have built a life here. I have mapped out a future here. This. Is. My. Home. I just can't even.

Woman Laughing Alone With Boas

@wee_ramekin Also, "Don't Live in Texas" is just a worse version of "Just Go Somewhere Else For Your Care That Is Probably Farther Away / More Expensive."

I am also fortunate enough to live in Austin, and have the means to transport myself where I need to go, but quite a lot of the rest of Texas doesn't! Not to mention, plenty of the folks in rural areas who are affected by this, and who could / would attempt to vote it out, are currently being disenfranchised by voter ID laws.

RAGE FACE

Gwdihw

It's even worse down here in SA

:-(

Xanthophyllippa

@l'esprit de l'escalier My bestie's from SA. I don't think there's enough money in the world to get her to move back there.

Gwdihw

@Xanthophyllippa Yup. And my students, they hate me because I must ooze "liberal elite" or something.

packedsuitcase

@wee_ramekin Oh, God. So many hugs.

Woman Laughing Alone With Boas

@wee_ramekin I happily now stand corrected over my voter ID rant, if anyone is interested: Federal Court Strikes Down Texas Voter ID Law in Ruling That Could Help Decide 2012 Election

Some federal court judges aren't totally the worst! (Though of course still not enough of them.)

Neekta Khorsand@facebook

Felt you should all get Yeats' (sympathetic?) portrayal of that legit swan rape, 'cause a bit o' poetry always helps:

A sudden blow: the great wings beating still
Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed
By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,
He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.

How can those terrified vague fingers push
The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?
And how can body, laid in that white rush,
But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?

A shudder in the loins engenders there
The broken wall, the burning roof and tower[20]
And Agamemnon dead.

Being so caught up,

So mastered by the brute blood of the air,
Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?

Lu2
Lu2

@Neekta Khorsand@facebook --if not sympathetic, then at least a male-oriented take on what he's trying to imagine (in part) as the female perspective. I mean, "feathered glory"? sez who? and "caught up" and "mastered" ... as if rape could equal "sexual conquest" (in some generally non-rapey sense). This poem has always disturbed me a little. And then the indifferent beak---so cruel at the end. I.e., he's done, got what he wanted, and doesn't give her another thought.

meetapossum

@Neekta Khorsand@facebook I was going to put this up myself. For someone who was sometimes (often?) unsympathetic to and ignorant of the real inner lives and thoughts of women, I've always felt that this poem hit the nail on the head as far as the troubling nature of rape myths.

Ophelia

@Lu2 In all fairness re: "feathered glory" - it was Zeus in Swan form, so he probably was supposed to be pretty glorious, mythologically speaking.

meetapossum

@Lu2 Second-ing Ophelia.

Also, you have the juxtaposition of "mastered" with "by the brute blood of the air".

The point of the "indifferent" at the end is to be cruel. Zeus doesn't care at all about his victims, and they alone are left with the consequences of his actions. The rape of Leda is quick and brutal and the foreshadowing of the fall of Troy and death of Agamemnon due to Leda's children shows how violence breeds violence.

Lu2
Lu2

@Ophelia --I know, but I'm going from what I take to be Yeats's assumption of the point of view of the victim, which is a complicated thing to assume. And, yes, I guess I'm doing the same by saying, "Come on, it's a bird. Who is raping her. Is a raping bird really going to seem 'glorious', even if it is Zeus?"

meetapossum

Not to say that Yeats's view of women wasn't complex or even slightly misogynistic (see A Prayer for My Daughter, among others). He also in other works calls the rape of Leda an “annunciation”, inasmuch as it was the beginning of a turn in history (the gyres).

Sorry for blathering. I have a lot of Yeats feelings.

Lu2
Lu2

@meetapossum --re: the juxtaposition. I think we agree here.

meetapossum

@Lu2 I actually think the most questionable phrasing is when he asks if she "put on" his knowledge. The phrase suggests a voluntary act: did Leda choose to see the future? Was she forced to see it? The rape is made more terrifying when there is potential knowledge of what is to come.

Lu2
Lu2

@meetapossum --That's quite interesting, what you say there. I had trouble with that phrase (couldn't quite figure out what he was implying), and so I didn't touch it. But I see what you mean. And also, there are overtones that there is a benefit to being imbued with his godlike power (metaphorically through his, er, seed), as if she might even have been improved by being bird-god-raped.

Yeats does give one feelings, it's true, of different kinds. I'm no Yeats scholar (probably goes w/o my saying it), or even a scholar of any kind, but at one time I was rather partial to him.

meetapossum

@Lu2 I also read "glory" as being literal (as in, he is a god, and thus worshiped), but also ironic, especially surrounded by all the violent imagery in those first two stanzas.

Ophelia

@Lu2 Agreed - I think I was reading "glorious" in a similar way to how I'd read an archaic version of "awesome" - that it's overwhelming in its god-ness. Like when poets talk about warriors who are glorious in battle. Would a god still be glorious while doing something terrible, even if you're the victim? I'm not sure.

@meetapossum interesting. I hadn't thought of the possibility of irony. Mulling.

meetapossum

@Lu2 Well, yes, exactly! It's actually a theme that reoccurs constantly in his work: that beauty (in this case, Leda herself and Helen being born) and violence are inextricably linked (this is what my college thesis was about, so I'm kind of nerding out). Is it troubling and uncomfortable to examine? Absolutely. Yeats was pretty complex and frustrating when it comes to his opinions on women.

meetapossum

I mean, my general point is that this is one of the first works (poetry or otherwise) to get at and illustrate the violence imbued in the myths, and I think Yeats tries as best as he can to be sympathetic. In some paintings, Leda and the swan are cuddling.

Blushingflwr

@meetapossum I remember when my Latin teacher told us that "surprised" was a euphemism for "raped" in stories where women were "surprised" by gods in the woods.

meetapossum

@Blushingflwr Latin/Classics teachers have taught me a lot. For example, if you're reading classical literature and come across a net, or a pit, or a trap, it's probably referring to a vagina!

Lu2
Lu2

I am pretty sure that the devil spawn of John Cassavetes was the spawn of the devil, not of John Cassavetes. At least if we're talking about the movie. If you know something about John Cassavetes' personal life I don't know, then ... the point goes to you. :)

RNL
RNL

Can we discuss "degree to which date is avid Reddit commenter = % dealbreaker" formula please?

whateverlolawants

@RobotsNeedLove I haven't met my coworker's boyfriend yet, but I'm pretty sure he's a Reddit commenter. Just from his frequent computer usage and her descriptions of his douchebaggery (see my Friday Open Thread comment from Sunday if you're curious.)

OhMarie

@RobotsNeedLove It would need to have some kind of weighting by which sub-Reddit they frequent. Only into Guild Wars 2? Not so bad. Men's Rights? IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW AVID, DTMFA!!!

The Lady of Shalott

@RobotsNeedLove My tragic ex-boyfriend who dumped me by failing to return any of my phone calls/texts/emails and then moving away? HUGE REDDIT FAN.

I should have known better. And somewhere there are a bunch of Redditers cheering him on.

Kristen

@OhMarie I just spent a weekend hanging out with my boyfriend's family and it turns out that his brother is REDDIT INCARNATE. A twenty-four year old white libertarian who refers to women as "females" and speaks in memes ("That awkward moment when...")

I didn't actually dislike him - he doesn't seem like he's into men's rights or anything - but it was dizzying to imagine that he was the real person behind all those shitty comments.

faience

@RobotsNeedLove I share an office with a guy who has recently become a frequent reddit poster. We have been friends for a very long time and I've often functioned as his female perspective when it comes to dating. Like how not to sound like a douchecanoe on your online dating profile and yes, that shirt does make you look like your dad. We had a long conversation about the whole MRA deal on reddit spawned by that awful rape thread. So far he mostly frequents the anthropology subreddits but I know he ventures into some of the pick-up artist domains too. He's finally sort of finding his footing in the dating world and has definitely become less of a snob. But yeah this new reddit habit of his might squash some things.

Diana

@RobotsNeedLove

I joined Reddit about two years ago because I was fucking enraged by a thread about rape and needed to school roughly 150 assholes. I've been there ever since for the following reasons:

1) the /fitness subreddit is excellent. It is not a coincidence that the (male) moderator of that group has made it absolutely explicit that misogynistic shit is not acceptable, and has gone so far as to link it in the FAQ and sidebar of the community's front page.
2) the rest of the time I just yell at misogynistic assholes on the Internet. I know I won't change their mind because they're insufferable moral pygmies with the critical thinking skills of a lump of wet Play-doh, but I like to think that other women who may inadvertently stumble across the conversation can take comfort in the fact that some lady is out there telling them off. A woman's work is never done.

RK Fire

@Diana: I'm on reddit too (as is my husband and some of our friends), but I think OhMarie is right--a man's datability is related to which subreddits he frequents.

Also, alongside the misogyny, the level of class privilege and white privilege can sometimes be so, so ridiculous.

sarah girl

@OhMarie Yeah - I was an avid Redditor for several years, and it's entirely possible to find subreddits that don't have any of the Mens' Rights crap. My 17-year old brother is also on Reddit, but exclusively debates Starcraft with people, ha.

RNL
RNL

@Faintly Macabre D:

Ophelia

I...can't make jokes about this anymore. The humor well has dried up, and now I just want to hit somebody*.

*nobody here, of course.

JaneDoe

@Ophelia
Oh, man. I wish the world was a better place. I'm exhausted, by all this ridiculousness. I can't handle it anymore. I'm just a walking rage face all the time now, cause I know, otherwise, I would burst into tears for every woman(and sympathetic man) that lives in the US. Like, what kind of world is this, where this shit can happen? Women have come so far, and some douchnozzles are just going to take it all away. It feels hopeless and I feel helpless.

Wow, clearly I have a lot of feels that I've been keeping bottled up. Sorry bout that.

Xanthophyllippa

@Ophelia I have a list of people you could start with, if you want.

Diana

I was going to stay off the Hairpin today to get more work done but 6/10 REDDIT COMMENTERS, oh man, that felt good inside of my soul. The mutual recognition that they are the worst everyday scum of the Internet, I mean, not the reminder that Reddit exists.

Gwdihw

THe Rape of the Lock: legitimate or not?

dj pomegranate

@l'esprit de l'escalier She was totally warned beforehand. She ignored the warning and chose to put herself in that situation. ILLEGITIMATE.

Lucienne

@l'esprit de l'escalier Man, I love that poem and I wish he'd named it something else.

Vera Knoop

You'd think the Zeus one was indisputable, but there was someone in one of my Greek classes who said something about Zeus "courting" -- I don't even remember if it was Leda or Europa, but there was definitely zoomorphic subterfuge happening there. When I mildly opined that "rape" was a more appropriate word for it, she said "Oh, well there's no need to go there." Yes, by all means let's avoid being precise with our words in a language class.

TARDIStime

@Vera Knoop
My face is so sad for you right now.
D: D: D: D:

Hot Doom

@Vera Knoop aaaaaahhhhhhhhhh! If they're that squeamish, how about all those paintings from the 16th century titled 'rape of europa'? It's not like you 'going there' is a novel thing. AHHHHHHH.

Xanthophyllippa

@Vera Knoop I hope you punched her. No, really. I'd actually allow a right hook in my classroom if it were delivered in response to extreme stupidity.

Vera Knoop

@TARDIStime I was pretty appalled.

Vera Knoop

@Xanthophyllippa I have this problem with punching old ladies. In that it is difficult for me to do.

Xanthophyllippa

@Vera Knoop Oh, understandable. I hope you tsked at her with a grave expression, then.

Vera Knoop

@Xanthophyllippa I'm pretty sure all I could muster was a flat stare and a "Really?"

The Frozen Head of Dorothy Zbornak

When I was driving the other day, the car in front of me had a license plate frame that read, "If U Abort Your Baby Which Breast Are You Willing to Loose?"

WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN??

The Frozen Head of Dorothy Zbornak

@The Frozen Head of Dorothy Zbornak

Clearly, this person doesn't understand how abortion works...which is surprising, considering they did such a remarkable job aborting spelling and grammar convention.

Xanthophyllippa

@The Frozen Head of Dorothy Zbornak You didn't know that the fetus is held in there by a long screw that connects to your boob?

TARDIStime

@The Frozen Head of Dorothy Zbornak
I had a moment like that with a coworker after a conference we went to where there was a fellow female coworker dressed in an inappropriately short dress.
She remarked "She's asking to be raped on the way home tonight! On the prowl, that one!" and then laughed. I think I work with a lady who has no idea what rape actually is. I was rendered speechless with shock.

Vera Knoop

@The Frozen Head of Dorothy Zbornak There are a lot of "Abortion Crisis Centers" that spread all sorts of misinformation about abortion. A link with breast cancer is one of the most durable (and completely unfounded) of these rumors.

The Attic Wife

I've realized something about the GOP recently: Their knowledge of the health sciences are literally medieval. I think it was in the 13th century that a medical book (Fleta, according to a quick Google search) claimed there could be no conception without consent. Also the idea that the uterus is a magical thing that can cause women to go nuts when they "shift" in the body persisted well into the 19th century. These shifts of the uterus were said to lead to all kinds of physical and medical ailments, thus reinforcing the notion that women are not capable of handling the burdens of citizenship and personal autonomy.

And their ideas of what constitutes "legitimate" rape comes right out of the Middle Ages. Legally, in order for a woman to claim she was raped and have it hold up in court, she had to "raise hue-and-cry." By that, I mean she had to scream and fight back so loudly that someone could hear her (hopefully an adult man since they're the only reliable witnesses to crime) so someone else could vouch for her. It's not without precedent, but when the precedence is 600 years old, it's time to update your policies.

Xanthophyllippa

@The Attic Wife I'm waiting for one of these fucknuts to bring up fertilization at a distance. It wouldn't surprise me at all given their knowledge of reproductive biology.

At least hysteria/wandering womb gave rise to the vibrator and its...therapeutic uses.

The Frozen Head of Dorothy Zbornak

@The Attic Wife

Sadly, the "raise hue-and-cry" thing is essentially still a requirement for a rape conviction in many states. So many of our rape laws are insanely sexist and outdated...as are the politicians who write them.

PistolPackinMama

@The Attic Wife Oh god. :( I despair of humanity.

packedsuitcase

Okay, I have nowhere to share this, but this seems like a good-ish place. Last night I was out with 4 male coworkers, and they were asking me about the elections in the States (I've been living in Europe and moving back to the US tomorrow), and I went on an Akin/"legitimate" rape rant and they just stared at me. Then my boss said, "That's awful, I can't believe that anyone can think like that." And all of my coworkers agreed with no mansplaining at all, and then I went home and cried that I have to leave.

Xanthophyllippa

@packedsuitcase Can you stay in Europe? Surely one of those lovely men has a spare bedroom?

PistolPackinMama

@packedsuitcase Word . I hope your flight home is smooth, though.

BoozinSusan

@PistolPackinMama I told my German coworker about this, and she just gave me a confused look. She said, "Sometimes Europeans think Americans are stupid, but we don't mean THIS stupid."

bwakark

This whole situation makes me so desperately sad.
I know no one wants to actually leave their homes and all, but you can all come live in my house in Perth if you want. Of course, Australia isn't particularly liberated either, but we have way less politicians...

samjohn4810

PistolPackinMama I told my German coworker about this, and she just gave me a confused look. She said Nanny Melbourne

samjohn4810

I think we throw this particular pie into his face, right? Or does that make him seem too likable?
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jimmyrapper

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