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Tuesday, April 3, 2012

337

Lies, Kissing Biblically, and Translucent Officewear

So, I’ve been dating an AMAZING guy for the past seven months. He is loving and sweet and we’ve recently started talking like we have a long-term future together, which is exciting! I just have one concern that I think maybe is a big deal but maybe it’s only a big deal in my mind? Which is where you come in.

Basically it's that I told a little lie to a new boyfriend who has surprise! Turned into a long-term boyfriend who I love a lot (see above). When we first got together, I was a virgin. The wrapping was still on the package. I had had some serious boyfriends before and we had done everything BUT actual sex. The issue is I didn’t tell me new guy this and when we had sex for the first time, he had NO IDEA it was for real the first time for me. I didn’t tell him because 1) I didn’t want him thinking I was inexperienced, and 2) I didn’t want him to feel pressure or think he was making me do something I didn’t want to do (trust me — I REALLY wanted to do it). I also kind of told him that I had had sex with my last boyfriend and we even swapped stories about our “first time” (it wasn’t a complete lie … I told him about my first time doing some real “I’m all grown up now” horny teen action).

So now my issue is, I’m maybe going to be with this guy FOREVER and EVER, and I have this lie out there. Should I tell him now? Would you be upset if you were in his position and found out about this? Should I just take this to my grave with me??

There are very few good reasons to perpetuate lies long term. Especially in healthy relationships. They eat away at you. They hang out in the back of your mind the same way donuts allegedly stay in your stomach for thousands of years. Get out from under. Your sexual history is a completely natural thing to have embellished, but if you really like this guy, and he's a guy you want to be with, lay the truth out there for him. Either he's the sweet guy you think he is, or you'll find out he's not the one for you. Don't just explain that you lied, tell him why. I suspect he'll understand. That you're even worried about this means you're probably not the kind of liar who can go to the grave with a lie. That's okay. The longer you keep this from him, though, the worse it will seem later. Not the actual lie, but WHY you lied and why you never trusted him with the truth. That's worse than the lie, the fact that you didn't trust that he could handle the truth.

So there's this guy in my workplace I love to death — but there are some ... problems with his wardrobe. He's older and I don't think he'd ever had a job as a Corporate Curmudgeon, so this might be new to him, but under the harsh, unforgiving lights of cubicle culture, the button-ups he wears become sort of ... translucent. It's a nipple party, Dude. A nipple party eight hours a day, five days a week.

The solution is obvious to me — undershirt! Fruit of the Loom – but because I'm female, I'm finding it a bit difficult to approach. If he were a fellow female, I'd just pull him aside in the bathroom, but since he's not, if I mention anything it sort of smacks of me ... looking at his nipples? (Which, to be fair, when you gaze into the nipple, the nipple gazes back at you.) I've thought about approaching his girlfriend at social events after a few drinks and asking her, but what do you suggest?

I'm not entirely clear why you can't talk to him about the nipple show. Or why you're so distracted by his nipples. Are guy nipples as distracting as lady nipples? I have never really thought about this. You can send me his email and I'll send him a heads-up. "Dude. Your nipples are showing. Get an undershirt." I'm pretty sure if you could say this to some lady you could say it to this older dude. "Hey, pal. Can I talk to you about something? A few of us have noticed you don't wear undershirts and your nipples are a bit too friendly. Get a few t-shirts. Or some duct tape." You may want to confirm with others in your office that this is an actual problem. If it is, okay. Friends would tell friends things like this. And friends would accept that people were being friends in telling us things like this. If no one else in your office thinks it's an issue, you may just have to stop thinking about some old man's nipples. In the old days some guy would have a terrible hairpiece and we would just have to accept this quirk. Surely you can avert looking at the dude's nipples. His eyes are like a foot north of them.

So, I'm an asexual lady (which means that I'm not sexually attracted to anyone, consult the internet for more) and I'm seriously into one of my friends and have been for a while. This dude and I live a few hours away from each other now, so we don't see each other often, though we do talk pretty regularly, and we're going to be closer again this summer. We're both bad at talking about things like feelings, so we haven't addressed the relevant issue (i.e. I think he's into me too, so maybe we should do something it). I've never had sex, and I'm not particularly interested (I realize this is new and different!), but I'd probably be willing to have sex with him if he wanted to, but obviously this is something that we'd need to discuss. I'd love to be assertive and make moves, but given our mutual shyness and my uncertainty in all things sexual, I'm hesitant. And even if nothing happens with this dude, there will be another dude later on who I'll have to tell I don't want to bang him. (For the record, I haven't been in a relationship since realizing I'm asexual, and before that, things were just Really Weird in the sex department.)

So I guess my question is twofold: how would you, A Dude, feel if a lady you probably like told you she cares about you a lot romantically but isn't interested in sex with anyone (not just you! you are wonderful and attractive and good!)? What would be the best way for her to explain/reveal this to you? And second, I realize that sex isn't the only stumbling block here, but if you have any advice for me and my dude, I'd love to hear it.

How would I feel? I've been in stranger relationships. And I've seen worse situations for couples to be in. With worse obstacles to overcome. This is another situation that calls for the truth, too. If I really liked someone and they really liked me, that would be great. These particular complications are not unfamiliar to me. But if you guys like each other enough to work on them together, you'll be in good shape. Even if sex is never possible or at the very least unlikely, that's not the only thing relationships can offer: companionship, support. The world's a lonely place. That you'd even consider having sex with this dude when sex doesn't interest you is a pretty big compromise. Which makes me think you really do like this guy. And if he's worth liking, he deserves a chance to figure all this out with you. And give yourself a chance. I've had some pretty strange sexual relationships proposed to me in the past. And I wish I had been more adult and less scared to deal with them together with my partner. I regret losing a person I cared about over stuff like this. If he can't handle it now, maybe he would be strong enough to handle it later. It's always better to find out than wonder. And it's probably worse in your mind than it is in reality. Give yourself a chance to be happy, too.

My boyfriend and I were out of town, having a nice walkabout in the main street area. We spotted a good mutual male friend of ours. As we were going up to say hello, a girl dramatically ran up and kissed him. Not a 'this is my sister and we're having an afternoon shopping trip' kiss either, but an 'I know this woman in the Biblical sense,' kiss. Which would be fine, I'm no prude, but this woman isn't his wife. We know because his wife is not only awesome and better-looking, but one of my best friends. We clutched our pearls in dramatic Southern fashion, and Boo had the common sense to usher me away unspotted before I caused an oh hell naw Jerry Springer scene.

Now what? We're both very good friends with the couple, and do couple-y double date things together all the time. Being the rational male-type, Boo insists it isn't our place to say anything. The perpetrator should come clean on his own, and we should stay out of it. Naturally, this is at odds with my loyalty to my girl friend, who I know would want to be informed, and would do the same for me. In addition, I'm the owner of the world's worst poker face. She's going to know something's up if we suddenly cancel our double dates, act strange around them, or heaven forbid I lunge across the dinner table and kick her husband in the nuts. She's going to be pissed if she finds out we knew and didn't say anything. I would also feel bad ruining the bromance between our guys by saying something, causing a divorce and subsequent division of friend assets. I don't want to take sides, but I'm admittedly biased. Should we wait until it comes up, or blow the whistle? Please help!

You think this guy is sleeping around on your friend now? Or in the past? If you're sure that it's current, then I guess you already know what you have to do. And he probably shouldn't be making out with people in the street, regardless. You might let your boyfriend know you can't live with it, and force him to go tell the guy that he has to come clean. Give him a week to get it done before you take your friend out for drinks to drop the bomb. If it's what you would want her to do for you, what you would expect her to do for you, you really have no choice. The consequences of all this could be pretty steep. But Polonius was right. "To thine own self be true." Or whatever he said. If you can't handle lying, the truth will come out of you soon enough. But give the guy a chance to do the right thing if you're conflicted. A shot across the bow. He shouldn't be brazenly kissing ladies in the street. It sounds like he wants to be caught. Or he's a victim of some weird kissing lady who's loose on the streets. Being a real friend is sometimes hard. Your boyfriend may not like this answer and may not want to help you. Give him a week to get it done, too. But also be prepared for a shitstorm.

Previously: Sixth Senses, Approachability, and the Penniless Nomad Actors.

A Dude is one of several rotating dudes who know everything. Do you have any questions for A Dude? (300 word max, please.)

337 Comments / Post A Comment

redheaded&crazy

"We know because his wife is not only awesome and better-looking"

for the love of jaysus CAN'T WE JUST LEAVE IT AT AWESOME?!

insouciantlover

@redheaded&crazie Dude, it's a woman who just saw her friend's husband get face slobbered by another woman. I think this time it's okay.

redheaded&crazy

@insouciantlover ugh, seriously disagree, but respect others' right to disagree with me.

lisma

@redheaded&crazie I'm inclined to agree with you here. Making comparisons like that can get ugly and they don't really speak to the deeper issues, but sometimes I think it is allowed. We can't all of us always be perfectly zen and non-judgey.

Jane Err

@insouciantlover Well, I think it's kind of a low-blow. For all anyone knows, that lady is just as in-the-dark as Dude's wife. So, while it may seem okay at the time, when writing a letter to Internet about it later, it's somewhat unfair to make a point of her less-than attractiveness.

But, you know, EMOTIONS. I get it.

redheaded&crazy

@ginalouise Haha oh yeah you guys should all aspire to be perfectly zen and non-judgey - like me!

No, I get heat of the moment, although, ugh, I just, ugh. Ugh. But the letters get edited don't they?

AndSomethingElse

@Jane Err I like your name.

I'm with insouciantlover etc, Weasley: while it's an unattractive low blow, it's human.

insouciantlover

@Jane Err Oh sure it's a low blow, but it was one made out of intense friend loyalty so I didn't take it super seriously... more like she was just being really emphatic about what a catch her friend is. I didn't get the impression that she was being completely objective about it.

redheaded&crazy

@insouciantlover You are LW4 aren't you!!!

insouciantlover

@redheaded&crazie Nah, I just have a lot of experience in being judgmental.

LRMG

@redheaded&crazie I agree. I've heard and said variations of this "he/she wasn't even that good looking!" It takes all kinds to make a world friends, we all have differing tastes. I judge myself for letting it slip out and I'm not judging this letter writer, just hoping this kind of stuff would stop. However!! Cheaters - BOOOOOO!!!!

Passion Fruit

@redheaded&crazie I am completely with you, RH&C. Can we leave out the woman's appearance? It is completely irrelevant. What if TEH OTHER LADY was a babe? Would that explain it? (Obvs, no.) But still. I know it's a knee-jerk protective instinct on behalf of the friend, but it makes me cringe to read.

MissMushkila

@redheaded&crazie This is a thing for me, too. Like, can't we ever call women out for something without also disparaging their physical appearance???

I mean yes, also, the Other Woman in this case may be entirely in the dark and innocent regarding the affair. Even if she knew though, the relevant bit would be that she is enabling a cheater and being terrible! Not what she looks like!

Lily Rowan

@Jane Err Or maybe no one's in the dark! Maybe the wife knows and is fine with the idea that her husband has a side piece -- I mean, another partner.

And let me just say I never thought the day would come when I would be the spokesperson for non-monogamy.

redheaded&crazy

I'm not doing a very good job of being un-judgey. :( I understand friend loyalty but I also resent that as a friend part of my loyalty is supposed to include being snarky about other women's looks. So I'm totally projecting here.

stuffisthings

@redheaded&crazie She's also worse at math.

AndSomethingElse

@redheaded&crazie Worse at math and she does this weird thing - you know that thing she does? Totally unattractive. You're way better.

slutberry

@Lily Rowan That was my first thought-- maybe it is okay with his wife?

In that circumstance, ideally, I would walk over and say, "Oh hey, dude!" and see how he managed, to get a gage on the situation. If he was all "Oh hey, this is my girlfriend Lara!" I'd be all, "Oh, huh, hi Lara!", and if he was all, "Oh! Um. Hi! I... I have a twin brother who I am visiting in this town! Perhaps you thought I was him. Also this is my platonic sisterly sister platon!" I would be all "O_o I do not believe you sir".

Realistically, though, I would probably hide behind a shrub, a la Romola Garai in Emma.

AndSomethingElse

@teffodee Ha...I love that in your world people talk like Victorians. Invite me to your party.

For what it's worth, my advice on this mess is that either way is correct and she should do what she can live with.

slutberry

@Alexander Apparently, only the guilty and suspicious talk like Victorians?

You can totally come to my next party. It will be on Party Day.

Oliver St. John Mollusc

@redheaded&crazie Right? I think we can leave it at "we know because his wife is HIS WIFE." I don't care if she has buck teeth and smells like cat pee.

carolita

@LRMG well, to be fair, having been the woman who was cheated on once, I was quite gratified when a mutual friend (of hers and mine) told me he was shocked at my BF because I was "so much better looking and had more going on" than her. It's just a booby prize for the wronged woman. Don't take it away!

Jane Err

@insouciantlover Oh yeah, I totally get the protectiveness. Its natural. If anyone should be bashed it should be this (possibly!) cheating dude. But again, EMOTIONS. I get them all the time. Can't shake the beastly things!

@Alexander Thanks!

@Lily Rowan Totally! I'd feel almost exactly the same as LW, but (as is the theme with most advice about anything, ever) one should just talk to the person/pet/inanimate object about the problem at hand. Maybe there's stuff one doesn't know (probably!)!

@carolita True! I've been the cheated on, also, and it's nice to hear, even just as consolation. But also having been the 'other woman' unknowingly, it bums me out to think that I probably got verbally eviscerated by some ladies when I didn't know I'd done anything wrong. I wish we could've just ended up being all cool about it like Brandy & Monica.

Tinpantithesis

@teffodee Okay, the twin brother thing ACTUALLY HAPPENED to my dad's twin brother! Except instead of making out with another lady, he was in colonial Williamsburg with my aunt and cousins, and some friends from my hometown were like WTF SECRET FAMILY. And then my uncle was like "oh wow, you must know my identical twin brother! Hi!"

Obvs that is not the case here, but: the world is full of things!

AndSomethingElse

@Tinpantithesis Ah ha...that's so weird. If I had a twin brother we would screw with people like this all the time.

Donovanesque

@redheaded&crazie Yeah, I'm with you on this. How is the attractiveness even relevant?

whateverlolawants

@Tinpantithesis On Saturday I saw my former coworker's identical twin at a party. I had never seen her before, but knowing Carly had an identical twin who takes photos professionally, it was pretty easy to figure this Carly-lookalike with a camera was her. If I hadn't known, though... things might have been bizarre for a minute.

Quin

@carolita Ha, as the sibling of my sister who was not-quite-wronged but goodness he got over that fast, didn't he? I have to agree. It might not be the nicest thing to say "and [sister's name here], you are so much prettier than [perfectly nice newer woman who I have never actually talked to]" but it is the nicest thing to say to the [not-quite] wronged person.

On the other hand, when my It's Complicated and I were being Just Friends and he briefly dated another girl, it was a little awkward that I kind of hated her (jealous feelings, sigh) but had she not been the new girlfriend I would have wanted to sex her up, because she was pretty hot.

Get rid of your emotions, they are disgusting. :P

Slapfight

@insouciantlover I'm with you. I've been the friend in one of these situations, and I had zero qualms tearing that other woman (and husband) to shreds. She knew he was married. Two people hurt my friend horribly, so in the grand scheme of things my petty insults are pretty minor. If they make my friend feel better, worth it to me. Also when you don't know the other woman, appearance (and shameless lack of morals) are the easiest things to go for. In general, I'm anti-judging people on their appearance. It's hard to remain so when you're blindingly angry.

camanda

Is it me, or does LW2 make her coworker sound like Really Really Big Man? "Gaze into my nipples of the future!"

Bed Monster

@camanda Literally laughed out loud at that one.

noodge

i kept something in the sexual dept away from Mr. Teenie for hm, about a year and a few months? yeah. not so smart. but it really did eat at me and i finally came clean in a tearful monologue, and he was awesome about it (naturally). and i have the pleasure of experiencing my most fulfilling sexual relationship with him now. tell him the truth, it will likely bring you guys closer if he's as awesome as you clearly feel he is. :-)

AndSomethingElse

@teenie I know it's not my business, but OMG you know how curious this makes me?

dj pomegranate

@teenie Truth.

ThundaCunt

@teenie I mean seriously, how many guys would LOVE to hear that their chick was a virgin until them?? Jeesh...if i had that secret i would be AWESOME...it's usually the other way..."I know i told you it was only 5, but it's more like 35. Whatever, no judging!"

emilylou

@ThundaCunt Agreed, her secret isn't as bad* as the reverse secret of having slept with way more people than you implied (aka, my "secret" with most guys I date, sorry for partying)

*not that I think sleeping with lots of people is "bad" or anything, you know what I'm saying.

fondue with cheddar

@Alexander ME TOO! I mean...of course I would never expect her to elaborate because if she had trouble telling Mr. Teenie then there's no way she's going to broadcast in on the Internets. But everyone who reads this is undoubtedly wondering WHAT THING? But it's okay.

@teenie, I'm so glad you shared it with him and that he was so great about it. It must've felt good to get it off your shoulders, plus his positive response gives you one more reason to love him. :)

oh well never mind

@teenie hooray for fulfilling sexual relationships! :)

AndSomethingElse

@teenie "I'm so glad you shared it with him and that he was so great about it." What Jen said.

AndSomethingElse

@emilylouise Not all guys care what your number is. Just sayin'. :)

fondue with cheddar

@Alexander Truth.

Inkling

@Alexander
You want a cookie or what?

brad

r.e. Being The First...ah, no. i don't want to make anyone uncomfortable who may be worried about disclosing that fact but, i had no desire to be anyone's first. it's not that i deeply desired women who had enjoyed thousands of turgidities, but i would have preferred that to a virgin. i liked the ladies who knew the block, and how to circumnavigate it.

AndSomethingElse

@Inkcrafter I want EmilyLouise to feel okay about disclosing her number to guys if she wants to, that's all.

Also, a cookie would be great.

emilylou

@Alexander You are nice! Don't worry about me. I'm not slinking around all ashamed of my number or anything. It's not anything outrageous and I would tell someone if they asked me. I'm just thinkin' this girl doesn't have much to worry about.

slutberry

@Alexander then how come that is ALWAYS WHAT THEY ASK ME ON THE METRO?

Inkling

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1wrr6WSIE1qkivpqo1_500.png

PistolPackinMama

@Alexander you may have missed the very long comment thread on a post here a while ago titled "what's your number." The general drift of the discussion was, it doesn't matter if anyone cares about your number of partners, because it is no one's goddamn business but your own.

Having opinions expressed about by anyone for any reason, positive or negative, kind of perpetuates an unfortunate discourse about sluttery. I think it all came up in a Rich Santos related way maybe? Which really means any cool guy wants to stay away from the issue, on account of Santos being a prize winning juicebox.

This may or may not be of interest to you, but if you are interested, you can find the full discussion in this here archive. Also, it's my preface to saying, I just thumbs-upped @Inkcrafter. I don't actually care if men care about my number. Unless I really have a good reason to, I am not telling it to them anyway.

AndSomethingElse

@PistolPackinMama Didn't see that conversation, but I'll look it up just out of curiosity about how "None of your business" really conflicts with "I don't care."

PistolPackinMama

@Alexander I don't see any conflict at all.

My sex partner count as individuals and as a collective matter to me. Whether or not a partner of mine has opinions about if I have had too many or just the right amount is not anywhere on my priority list at all. And I don't feel any obligation to share that information with them. It has personal value, but has no moral value at all. It's no one else's business.

The issue has to do with the fact that people evaluate women's worth by commodifying/judging them through their partner count. We know this is part of our social narrative, since the term slut is still negatively coded, because promiscuity affects your perceived honesty in sexual assault cases and on and on and on.

I mean, it's great and all that you don't care how many people your partners have slept with. And it's great "a lot" of guys don't care. But you know that is not the case broadly. And not caring is not the same as not wanting to know, if not for you, then surely for some of the "a lot" you mention.

It's not information anyone should feel entitled to know about a woman. Thus, whether or not men care about women's partner count is kind of irrelevant.

If you and your individual person are interested in sharing that information, that's nice for you. But as a general cultural thing, as Inkcrafter says, you don't get cookies for not caring. That is how it should be- it is C-grade Sex Partner Behavior.

To me, these ideas are intimately intertwined, and not in conflict at all.

runner in the garden

@Alexander
BTW the "cookie" thing (I assume) is a reference to the Chris Rock bit about dudes who want glowing gratitude for doing stuff that everybody is supposed to do. Which may not be where you were going, but you can see how it came off that way, yeah?

AndSomethingElse

@runner in the garden Yeah, actually, I guess I can see how I mighta come off that way. Sorry! It was the emoticon, wasn't it? I think people shouldn't care what their partners' numbers are; I had no idea I'd get a reaction from people who feel they shouldn't know either. I felt defensive there for a sec because it's surprising when you think you're saying something nice and it backfires. But it did come off a little "ooh, look how awesome I am."

If it redeems me any, I have no idea what my gf's number is.

Inkling

@Alexander
It wasn't the emoticon.
"Not all guys care what your number is" is basically saying "I (also, men like me) won't judge you for how many partners you've had."
I don't care if you have opinions on someone's number. Telling me SOME men don't is at once tooting your own horn, reminding me that SOME men do, and also granting your acceptance of whatever my number may be. The whole idea is that women shouldn't seek male acceptance because their number is a nonissue.
A better response would be "Men who judge you for how many partners you've had are really sexist/shallow/immature." It is devoid of self-flattery and does not imply that judgement is the norm which a special few are free of. Anger is demonstrated at the sexist behavior, fin.
Try this: "Not all white guys care if you wear baggy jeans and hoodies. Just sayin' :)" Whoah okay THANKS thanks for that, I can wear them now. Around you, I guess.

whateverlolawants

@PistolPackinMama Where was that discussion? I couldn't find a link in your comment.

PistolPackinMama

@whateverlolawants http://thehairpin.com/2011/10/whats-in-a-number

fondue with cheddar

@PistolPackinMama I haven't told anyone my number except sexual partners and close friends who I feel won't judge me for it. Nobody has a right to know, and you can't even say a sexual partner has a right to know because of risk of disease, because 1) you can get tested, and 2) it only takes one person to get infected. My boyfriend likes that my number is high because it means I've been with a wide variety of people with a wide variety of likes/dislikes, and I've learned a lot from that experience. It's awesome because that's exactly how I feel about it. I'm not ashamed and I don't feel I should have to be, but I still get uncomfortable when people judge.

whateverlolawants

@PistolPackinMama Why wasn't I aware of this thread when it happened? Sigh. I know my number off the top of my head. And I have a chart somewhere of everything I did with anyone... a spreadsheet, but written... using initials for names and acts.

That may be the saddest thing I've ever admitted on the internet.

fondue with cheddar

@whateverlolawants Not sad! I have a spreadsheet on my computer! It's got full names, but codes for acts. And I've got a point value for everything so I can see who I've done the most/least acts with and what acts I've done with the most/least people. I figured if I'm using a spreadsheet program I might as well crunch some numbers.

AndSomethingElse

@jen325 I can make both of you feel less nerdy: I'm a programmer, and years ago I built a database application to store everything. Everyone I've ever kissed is in there, and it's searchable by act and year. (And heavily secured.) There's a section for notes on each situation as well.

I always assumed I was the only person who was lame enough to do anything like this.

noodge

@Alexander @jen325 @whateverlolawants phuh, you guys are brave. there are definitely some acts i'd rather forget, as well as some names i've (embarrassingly?) forgotten - or never remembered in the first place :-/

fondue with cheddar

@Alexander Ooh, I wish I knew how to make mine searchable! That sounds awesome. I was actually considering making a wiki for it, but it would have to be very secure.

Either we are all lame, or we are all the coolest. I'm going to go with the latter!

fondue with cheddar

@teenie There are a couple names I don't have on there because I forgot or never knew, and a bunch whose last names I never knew. There's one no-name entry called "drunk guy from Prospector's". My friend picked up this guy at a bar, and I played wingman. I found myself in the other room with his drunk friend, who kept trying to get me to sleep with him. He was sloppy drunk and very persistent. Finally, I just gave him a handjob so he would leave me alone. It worked, and he fell asleep.

There are definitely some that would be easier to forget (like the con man who gave me a false name and stole my checkbook so he could clean out my bank account), but even the bad stuff is my history and it makes me who I am today, so I don't want to forget them. And besides, the further in the past those things go, the less they bother me.

AndSomethingElse

@teenie Yeah, there are a few entries in there that make me wince a little. We've all made some poor decisions. (We call them "college"!) And a few where the name is, like, "That nice woman with glitter all over her." She never did tell me her name.

We are totally the coolest.

fondue with cheddar

@Alexander Poor decisions often make for good stories, so.

AndSomethingElse

@jen325 "He was sloppy drunk and very persistent." Were you wearing glitter? ...kidding.

"the con man who gave me a false name and stole my checkbook so he could clean out my bank account"
Oooouuuuch.

fondue with cheddar

@Alexander Yeah, the checkbook thing was bad, but it happened when I was young and didn't have much money. He made off with about $450, which seemed like a lot of money at the time (an entire month's rent). Fortunately, the bank manager refunded all my bounced check and overdraw fees but I never did get that money back. The police totally dropped the ball. I stayed in touch with the guy so I could keep tabs on him until the day the police showed up at his door, but because his "cousin" answered the door and he used an alias nothing came of it.

Haha. There's no way that juicebox was you. Or if it was you, congrats on growing up.

iceberg

Well but maybe if other ladies are kissin' on this dude in the street and he didn't even seem embarrassed or wary about it in front of people who know & care about his wife, maybe they have a relationship where he's allowed to get kissed on by other ladies? More detail is needed.

Judith Slutler

@iceberg Yeah if that's the case, he is pretty dumb to not just tell LW and LWBF that? I don't understand WTF but probably they should confront him and do the "give him a week" thing, and if it's an open marriage then he can inform them.

BoozinSusan

@iceberg Whether or not they do should become evident when LW and/or her boyfriend bring it up. Although the red-handed guy could easily lie and say they have an open relationship, even if they don't... I just know I'd want my girlfriends to tell me if something was going on, so LW should probably tell the GF.

redheaded&crazy

@iceberg yeah my less knee-jerk reactionary comment is that it's one thing to snoop and find out stuff and then should you reveal?! but this happened right in front of y'all! That is weird.

BoozinSusan

@BoozinSusan Although as I write this, I hear a tiny Dan Savage on my shoulder saying into my ear, "LW and her boyfriend should butt out. It's none of their fuckin' business."

thebestjasmine

@iceberg Maybe, but since the letter writer and her dude were out of town, maybe this husband was in a place where he didn't think that anyone who knew him and his wife would see him kissing another girl, and therefore felt free to kiss her in the street.

iceberg

@BoozinSusan Yeah it's difficult! Maybe she could be like, "Dude, you have to tell her, and then she has to tell me that you told her", and then even if he says "open relaysh", the friend has to tell her that too so that she can know it's not being kept from the friend. I guess I'm saying don't go in like GIRL your man is a snake, just in case they have an "arrangement"

thebestjasmine

@BoozinSusan I say to tiny Dan Savage that I would always tell my friend anything like that, because that's being a good friend. If they have an open relationship, then my friend could tell me to butt out, and I would, but I think keeping a secret like this from someone that is a good friend to you doesn't say much for the friendship.

Porn Peddler

@iceberg My immediate reaction. And I def; don't think its weird that he and his wife don't necessarily share this information with friends.

Leon Tchotchke

@Emmanuelle Cunt WOAH so if I have an open relationship it's my responsibility to go around telling all my friends about what I do in my own private time to avoid misunderstandings?

I think by all means LW4 is within her rights to check in with her friend's husband and be like "Look, I saw this, and I don't understand, please tell me what's up." But jumping out of an alleyway and being like IIIII KNOW WHAT YOU DID!!!! seems excessively peremptory.

iceberg

@thebestjasmine Ah my reading comprehension failed. I thought they were talking to the dude when the chick ran up.

Judith Slutler

@Leon Tchotchke No wayyyyy, but they saw him, and that bell can't be unrung. So yes I definitely think they have a right to ask what's going on. (EDIT: Also I thought he knew that they saw him, I was a bit confused)

Honestly an occasional, rare situation like this is also kind of a risk that goes along with open relationships that include blatant PDAs? So yeah I would hope that the guy can handle it in a kind helpful way, if that is indeed what's going on here.

Diana

@thebestjasmine

Yeah, I think tiny Dan Savage sounds like a tiny asshole a lot of the time. If I didn't tell my best friend that I saw her boyfriend making out with another woman she'd never forgive me and I'd never forgive myself. What the fuck is the point of friends otherwise? Romantic relationships aren't this sacrosanct thing which are obviously superior to all other human attachments. It's totally possible that they have an understanding, which is why LW should bring it up discreetly and privately, but sticking your head in the sand because "it's none of my business" is bullshit. If you take somebody on as a best friend, you make some of their business your business because you love them. They're part of your family now, and you'd sure as fuck tell your sister if you saw your brother-in-law stepping out, wouldn't you?

SarahP

@iceberg Of course I wish all my friends the best of luck in their relationships, but I still really hope I gte to say "GIRL your man is a snake" at least once in my life. That is golden.

thebestjasmine

@Diana Second this, all of this. I never understand people who wouldn't tell their friend if they saw something like this. If they have an open relationship, FINE, but you don't know that, and so you tell her what you saw. She doesn't have to tell you what happens in their relationship afterward, but that's not the point, the point is to let your friend know that something big might be going on that she's not aware of that could affect her happiness and her health.

BoozinSusan

@thebestjasmine Yeah. The Tiny Dan Savage talks to me but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with what he says. That piece of advice always stuck in my craw, to be honest.

Statham

@iceberg Well, I guess I always think about if I'd want one of my close friends to tell me. And of course I would. I'd also hope that my friends would feel the same way that I do, so I wouldn't just sit back and wait for the shitstorm to happen. I'd either tell her, or give the dude a bit of time to come clean about it himself.

slutberry

@SarahP I wish you friendship with the lovers of male Lamias.

carolita

@iceberg I actually had the very same experience with a friend who was cheating on his wife. Saw him at a party making out with a woman who was definitely not his wife. I was furious, because I liked her a lot, and he was just your garden-variety slacker horn dog at the time, using her as a stepping stone. They'd just bought an apartment together, for goodness sakes (mostly with her money, i think). Dumped the wife for the new woman, who turned out to be a promising actress. Had kids, used her in a few movies of his own. And then they broke up, too, later. Let's face it. People just move on these days. You fall in love with a new person, and I guess it's not a crime. I've become more philosophical about it. Who am I to say a person can't fall in love with someone new? I mean, yeah, there's pain in it, but life is full of pain, nobody said life was supposed to be joy after joy forever, with no pain or loss. It's not the end of the world. I do still feel justified being mad at him for not at least explaining things to me, though, before sticking his tongue down her throat in front of me. It was very confusing.

Princess Langwidere

@Diana Hear, hear! After I discovered my ex was cheating on me and filed for divorce, tons of friends and some FAMILY MEMBERS came out of the woodwork with tales of seeing him around town being affectionate with another woman. They all thought it was weird, but stuck to the mind-their-own-business, not-say-anything to me line. It hurt me terribly. It wouldn't have been pleasant to bring it up to me, I'm sure, but I'd sure as shit rather have found out that way than walking in on him and and the other woman in my own house. Thanks, "friends."

whizz_dumb

@iceberg LW's boyfriend needs to, at very least, tell his buddy that they accidentally witnessed THE KISSING and ask him what's going on. Hurry up, if they're good buds then it's no big deal. Is this a "none-of-our-business" thing or a "covering for" thing? The rest is tricky and situational and I'm not jealous of being in that situation.

Craftastrophies

@Princess Langwidere I mean, if I found out my boyfriend was cheating on me, I would probably immediately call my best friend and demand that she be present to comfort me. This way, I don't need to call her!

If it's no big deal, it'll be no big deal. If it is, LW's friend needs a heads up.

lbf
lbf

@iceberg I'm genuinely confused that y'all think tiny Dan Savage would be OK with the cheating in other cities and tell the LW+LWBF to butt out. I'm pretty sure I remember a podcast where this exact situation came up, and he didn't tell anyone to shut up because other people's relationships are Dick-Cheney-level classified information you have no right to even think about. The reply was pretty much what A Dude and you guys suggested: say something non-judgey about the extramarital makeouts, something that's open to the notion that they might have an arrangement about such things. On the lines of "I saw this, what gives". THEN, if it turns out this was not ACTUAL CHEATING, butt the fuck out. Be polite and apologize for getting into their intimates, but know better: the dude blew his own cover.

You can make the argument that he's a bi-phobic cock supremacist who hates trans fatties, but "juicebox enabler" is not on tiny Dan Savage's resumé.

QuiteAmiable

This Dude's short sentences are a breath of fresh air. I like short sentences. And punctuation.

AndSomethingElse

@QuiteAimable Do I have a dead author for you! He liked sweaters and kitties.

Lily Rowan

@Alexander And booze?? Did he like booze???

MoxyCrimeFighter

@Alexander Was he impressively hirsute?

QuiteAmiable

@Alexander Did he like ladies??

BoozinSusan

@Lily Rowan I happen to have just recently visited the house of the writer in question. Our guide told some great stories. For example, one time, when [writer's] favorite watering hole was closing up shop permanently, he (and some friends, presumably) actually lugged home a huge ceramic tiled urinal sometime during the night.
The next day, when his wife told him she wouldn't abide a urinal in her yard, he said, "Honey, we have a right to keep that thing. I passed a fortune through it."

Lily Rowan

@BoozinSusan Ha ha ha! That's excellent.

Decca

@BoozinSusan Oh, that Henry James!

AndSomethingElse

@Decca Ha...Decca wins this thread.

PistolPackinMama

@Decca And here was me being all surprised Dickens was alive during the time of urinals!

wee_ramekin

@PistolPackinMama Alive in the Time of Urinals...what Garcia Marquez should have written.

:Cinnamon Girl:

@QuiteAimable Yeah, this dude is pretty great. More pls!

PistolPackinMama

@wee_ramekin NEWS FLASH THE GREAT UNDISCOVERED MANUSCRIPT, UNCOVERED IN A LINEN SUPPLY CLOSET IN BUENOS AIRES (HOW IT GOT THERE IS A MYSTERY TO THIS DAY)... FINALLY, PUBLISHED AND AVAILABLE AS TOILET READING EVERYWHERE... EXPOSE ON PAGE 3!!

oh well never mind

LW1: My current boyfriend turned out to have embellished his sexual history when we first got together. I think it was probably after about the same amount of time that you have been with your boyfriend that he told me he had been with fewer people than he'd said and had lost his virginity in his mid-twenties, not at 19. I was upset in a bit of a knee-jerk way when he told me but I think I was more worried about the idea that he hadn't trusted me enough to tell me earlier. When I thought about it I understood why he'd held back and I was pleased that we'd got to a stage where he felt he could open up about something that was a big deal for him. Long story short - if it's important to you and starting to feel like an issue in your relationship, I think you shold tell him. Like the Dude says, he'll understand - but you might need to be prepared that he could be a bit worried and need reassurance about why you didn't feel able to tell him earlier.

AndSomethingElse

@moosette Totally. And this is going to sound sexist but it might be true sometimes: due to societal expectations of men and women, it might be more okay for a woman to confess to something like this. I would not be terribly phased by a confession like this; I get why you'd do it.

oh well never mind

@Alexander But conversely perhaps more societal pressure on men to lie about it? That being a male virgin or less experienced is less acceptable for men than for women? Boo for sexism, hurts all of us.

AndSomethingElse

@moosette Yeah! Totally! That's sorta what I was getting at. For men, it's pretty shameful if they waited a while; for women, it's more acceptable. It does hurt all of us!

runner in the garden

@moosette yeah, I think there's a way to say something like "I really like you and I'm glad we've now gotten to the point where I truly fully trust you. With that in mind, here's something I wasn't ready to open up about until now..." Where you encourage the partner to accept it as a positive step rather than encouraging them to be hurt and offended by your HORRIBLE LIE.

sox
sox

Well HELLO there, A Dude.
*call me.
*seriously.

area@twitter

@sox Y'see, I agree totally based on the advice (ooh good writing ooh) but the rimless aviators/black t-shirt look is making me flash back to Cocktail for some reason.

sox
sox

@area@twitter Nooooooooooooooooooooo. WHY WOULD YOU EVEN SAY THAT?
*scrapes the Tom Cruise from my mind's eye with my fingernails*

cuminafterall

@sox If it makes you feel better, I was getting more of a John Stamos vibe.

Steph

@sox Just came down here to say that is one hot A Dude.

area@twitter

@sox I'm sorry for invoking the name of Cruise. :(

TheDragon

@sox.
For once being a pop culture-recluse worked in my favor.
I want to make out with this A Dude.

staircases

@sox SERIOUSLY. I am generally acknowledged to play for LW3's team, but, Hello, A Dude. I would probably be willing to do sex.

easyonthetonic

@sox I was thinking a young Rob Lowe?

xxAnniexx

A very to-the-point Dude. I like it.

Megasus

I think we all know from that 19 year old raver's column, that the only acceptable tape for nipples is electrical tape.
As for LW1, I am kind of the opinion that if you guys had sex, and there was nothing to indicate your devirginization, that there's really no need to tell him unless you absolutely want to/feel you need to. But I am of the opinion that the entire concept of female virginity is completely blown out of proportion, and is a rather archaic construct designed by men to control our bodies. And therefore not a big deal in the 21st century.

Porn Peddler

@Megan Patterson@facebook My raging feminist lighter is high, high in the air.

MoxyCrimeFighter

@Megan Patterson@facebook Totes agree on the social construct thing, but I think A Dude is right in that it's not really the fact but the fact of the secret that might cause an issue. Being a virgin is no big deal, and altering your sexual history to such small extent isn't that big a deal to me, at least, but I think there's a window in which the secret-keeping might be hurtful. Like, if you 'fessed up right away, or after soooo long that it's just kind of a funny story - but there's a period of time where it's like, "I can't believe you've been holding on to that one for so long."

I firmly believe that everyone has a right to be as forthcoming as they wish about their sexual past (as long as you're not keeping mum on stuff like, "I have an STD that you might get"), but since it sounds like they already discussed their pasts, and she wants to be upfront with him, I think she should just tell him because, honestly, it doesn't sound like it will have any effect other than making her feel better.

Megasus

@MoxyCrimeFighter No, for sure she should tell him if she feels she needs to (which it sounds like she does), but she doesn't need to feel such anguish about it, because it's not really any kind of real betrayal like she's making it out to be.

candybeans

@Megan Patterson@facebook YES. God, where were you when I was a virgin? I needed to hear and grok this shit back then.

D.@twitter

@Megan Patterson@facebook UH YEAH. Also I wanted to be like, YOU'VE ALREADY HAD SEX b/c there's more to sex than just p-in-v. Speaking of which: everyone should read "The Purity Myth" by Jessica Valenti. Virginity worship is nonsense.

Sydney C

1- The dude in the photo is mighty fine
2- I would be WILDLY uncomfortable if a male coworker came up to me for a frank discussion of my nipples, so I am hesitant to advise LW2 to do the same with her friend. Tit for tat (yep), you know? Talk to the girlfriend about it or maybe have a male mutual friend / coworker say something.

Jenny Cox

When I was in 5th grade the school photographer told me to adjust my hair because my nipples were showing through the fabric of my shirt???!!! It's just a picture of me near-crying, nips blasting and all.

OK so that's a little different and about 100x more inappropriate because I was a child, but seriously. Don't comment on people's nipples. They're just nipples!

sox
sox

@Sydney C
1-So fine, and in combo with the advice, has my spring-time heart all kinds of aflutter.
2-Agree so hard. Ask a mutual male coworker or HR. Definitely do not say something yourself.

fondue with cheddar

@Sydney C He kind of reminds me of Gael García Bernal.

morose_delectation

@jenny_ When did nipples become so OMG shameful? We all got 'em, we all turn our headlights on now and then, big deal. Old Office Guy would probably be horrified (or secretly turned on, which is worse!). Just learn to ignore, is my vote.

AndSomethingElse

@jenny_ OMG at this post.

frigwiggin

@morose_delectation I wish I could figure this out! If it weren't for my horror at other people possibly noticing my headlights, I would basically never wear a bra. And while I'm fine with not shaving and people noticing that, somehow the thought of having visible headlights when out and about just brings my brain to a screeching halt. I want to be free-spirited and -boobed.

Jenny Cox

@morose_delectation hahaha yeah, probably secretly turned on!

needsmoresalt

@Sydney C I think she needs to leave his nipples alone, period. They're not hurting her or anyone else. Maybe he knows they're showing and doesn't care, or maybe he sort of cares but doesn't like undershirts. I just do not see how this is a thing someone needs to be told, the way you might tell someone he had food in his teeth.

Inkling

@frigwiggin
Oh my gosh, do it. Gross overshare: bras made my back break out (!) and so I threw them all away. It's awesome. Casual looks more relaxed and formal looks more powerful when you regain your nipples.
An outfit that works surprisingly well is a boyfriend cut shirt (long, slim, wrinkles up like it's ruched) and worn short shorts for this "I rolled outta bed like a sex kitten and it's whatever" look.
Seriously, practice one warm do-nothing day. It is kind of the best.

frigwiggin

@Inkcrafter Ooh, I occasionally get pimples along the bra-line and they're always mega-painful. I don't think I'll be able to get to the point of coming to work without a bra, but (especially when it gets hot and gross around here) I think I'll be able to manage braless weekends.

I don't own a pair of short-shorts because of my thighs, which are an area for another discussion, but I'll adapt this sex-kitten-and-it's-whatever look to my wardrobe. ;)

slutberry

@needsmoresalt HOW DO YOU KNOW HIS NIPPLES AREN'T HURTING ANYONE. Have you never heard of the elusive Razor-Toothed Nipple????

Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy)

@teffodee They are dangerous! "You could cut glass with those" was a common refrain among my peer group during university.

carolita

@jenny_ Yeah, right? What's the big deal with nipples? Especially guy nipples! Hey, you know, maybe his nipples are his best feature and he likes to show them off! Give the man a break. We all have nipples. We women already have to hide them "for modesty" (as the lingerie catalogues put it), I'm not about to ruin nipple freedom for men, now, too. Hey, I like to see nipples. They're transfixing. Male nipples, female nipples, they're like big eyes just staring at you. I totally understand LW2's obsession with her coworker's nips. If they were staring at me across a desk all day, I'd be distracted. Maybe she should take this opportunity to feel some empathy for men, who are distracted by every little thing that reminds them of sex. (Apparently everything does.) Now she knows how it feels. Ha! ?

But seriously, if she really needs him to do something about it, she has to get a guy to do it for her. If she says something it'll seem like sexual harassment. Or else he'll think she really fancies him.

Exploring THAT possibility (maybe her focus on his nipples is just a displacement of another interest she isn't willing to admit?), maybe the other alternative would be to just sleep with the guy, see him with his shirt off, go to town on his nipples, and get it out of her system.

slutberry

@Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy) Right? Maybe Office Guy isn't wearing undershirts because his razor nipples shredded all of his!!

purefog

@jen325 Looks more like young Rob Lowe to me.

antilamentation

@needsmoresalt Yeah. I agree. I don't see how this is hurting anyone, or why it's impossible to ignore the nippleage. Just look him in the eyes when talking - what's so hard about that?!

It seems fashion police-like to me that the LW's wanting to dictate what her co-worker should wear. And as for asking his girlfriend about it, I seriously disagree with that too. That is like asking his girlfriend to fashion-police him on the LW's behalf. It seems patronizing to me. If I were the girlfriend, I would be very offended on his behalf, and my own (wouldn't want to get roped into being all judgemental and lecture-y about my guy), and I would tell the LW to butt out, focus on her job instead, and quit obsessing about everyone else's clothing.

Changeling

The Razor-Toothed Nipple, with eyes of flame
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood
And burbled as it came

slutberry

@Changeling You have no idea how tempted I am to change my commenter name to burbling nipples.

PistolPackinMama

@Sydney C Does this person's company have an HR department? Because I feel like HR or a supervisor has a stake in this outcome.

needsmoresalt

@PistolPackinMama I just have so much trouble imagining that Nips' or his gf's response to LW is going to be, "thanks so much for letting me know!"

Jenny Cox

@carolita Yes! LW, heed Carolita's sage advice, take him out to dinner, and go to town on his nipples already! Have a great time and report back as to whether the exercise assuaged or intensified your fixation.

PistolPackinMama

@needsmoresalt Well, yeah. "Thanks, and pass it on to 'a few' of the folks at the office."

If it's not appropriate, it's HR's job to say something so as not to spoil the relationships in the office. It is appropriate, then everyone should keep their mouths shut.

And HR doesn't need to be saying "your co-workers..." Just "HR has noticed..."

Lorelei@twitter

y'all, I am 5'1" and I work in an office full of tall men. If any of them wore sheer shirts, I would literally be eye-to-nipple with them every time we stood. In theory I am all for nipple power, in practice I am really glad I have never experienced this issue.

Sydney C

@needsmoresalt Honestly, that WOULD be my response if someone tactfully brought something like that up to me. I am in agreement with all the people who are like, "Deal with it, LW" because, yeah, it's none of her business. But I also doubt he'd be like, "Duh, I know. These nips shine bright and true and I like it that way." And if that is the case, I don't think he'd be offended by a tactfully worded email from HR. He can be made aware, but not shamed or humiliated.

needsmoresalt

@Sydney C How exactly is HR going to tactfully word this? "All men should wear undershirts?" "Everyone must wear standard undergarments"? If he's not aware that everyone can see his nipples, how does he get made aware of this? "Hey everyone, take a long look at yourself under a fluorescent light and see if maybe your shirt's translucent?" Also, I still really do not understand why this is a concern. There have been times when I have not been dressed in a way that everyone loved, and I have never once been grateful for other people's unsolicited advice. I really do think that it's not hurting her, so she needs to get over it. It's not like he's wearing translucent pants.

whateverlolawants

@Lorelei@twitter The other day a coworker took off his suit jacket to do an errand and was wearing a white dress shirt with nothing on underneath. It was mildly distracting, but only in an amusing way. It's hot at work and I wear as few layers as possible- he probably does the same.

My coworkers occasionally glimpse me changing from my suit jacket to a cardigan, though, which can involve EXPOSED bra straps... it's sort of awkward but I can't really go elsewhere to do it.

fondue with cheddar

@Inkcrafter Bras make me break out, too. I wish I could go braless but my boobs are so biiig. :(

Slapfight

@carolita I think man-nipples are a lot more sexual than women's. They serve no purpose except pleasure. ;)

Xanthophyllippa

@Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy) You'll shoot your eye out! You'll shoot your eye out!

Sea Ermine

@jen325 It might be a reaction to whatever detergent you are washing your bras with/how you are washing them/how frequently you wash them? Try switching to something free of perfumes and dyes (all the major brands have one) and making sure to rinse thoroughly to make sure all of the soap gets out. I used to get rashes from my bras until I realized I was using too much soap for handwashing and wasn't rinsing it out properly. Also if you don't wash them often try and do it either every time you wear them or every other time (taking them into the shower helps me remember to do it).

fondue with cheddar

@Sea Ermine I already use detergent free of dyes and perfumes (otherwise, sneezing!) and I machine wash them so I know they rinse thoroughly. I don't wash them as often as I should because I don't have many of them. Anyway, it's really not that bad, not like a rash. I get acne elsewhere too. I'm so glad you don't get rashes from them anymore! That must be awful.

Peanut Butter

@Lorelei@twitter So much! I'm a little taller than you, but my perpetually shirtless no matter who is over male friends are so tall. They're looking at you! And they're symmetrical and STARING RIGHT AT YOU. I don't enjoy looking at them, but I CAN'T NOT.

Norrey

LW1 - my husband was a virgin when we first had sex, and he has also lied to me as to that effect. When he came clean and told me (which he was really anxious about, apparently) my reaction was "Oh, well, that certainly explains a lot." On the scale of lies, this is a pretty small one, so don't sweat it, tell him, and you guys can laugh about it later.

Emby

@Norrey Bingo. I think he'll be like "Wait... really? No kidding? Huh." And then probably laugh about it and maybe pat himself on the back or something.

If he's as AWESOME as LW1 says he is, it'll just be a "well-whadda-ya-know!" moment.

AndSomethingElse

@Norrey "Oh, well, that certainly explains a lot." HA!

carolita

@Alexander and it's better than being told by some guy when you're NOT a virgin that he thought you were a virgin. Which happened to me once. A long long time ago, of course.

jacqueline
jacqueline

"It's like Hamlet said, 'To thine own self be true'."
"Uh, Hamlet didn't say that."
"I think I know Hamlet."
"Well I know Mel Gibson, and he didn't say that. That Polonius guy did."

Daria Morgendorffer

@jacqueline ALWAYS what I think of. A true product of my generation am I.

New Commenter Name

LW3 - aka Asexual Lady - I don't understand...? So, what exactly are you looking for with this dude? An awesome relationship where you both agree that you like each other, but with no sex involved? Isn't that just a....friendship? Isn't that what you have with him now?
Also, you'd "probably be willing to have sex if he wanted to." The thing is, it's not really so fun to have sex with someone who isn't totally into it.

WaityKatie

@Curiouser and curiouser I'm guessing it's probably more like she wants to cuddle and go on dates, but not have sex? Which is fine if that is what both people are into, but overwhelming odds are, he's not, and that sucks. This is a situation where I think a highly specific niche website would be the best way to meet a potential partner. After I start my dating site for atheists I will start a spinoff for asexuals, does that work?

Porn Peddler

@Curiouser and curiouser ...........you are going to regret this comment, just have to get that out of the way.

Romantic love =/= sexual attraction =/= attachment

BoozinSusan

@Third Wave Housewife Yeah, but the reality is that the overwhelming majority of people *will* expect that sex will be a component of their relationship. It's possible that he'll be comfortable with the non-sexual relationship arrangement, but unlikely. Who knows, though? She may luck out.

lil_bobbytables

@Curiouser and curiouser You can be asexual but not aromantic. Depending on the person and their partner, physical intimacy can occur in different forms. People make it work in different ways!

Porn Peddler

@BoozinSusan My bluntness and briefness is mostly based on the fact that I know there are asexual pinners and that the initial comment came off pretty insensitive. I realize that's not everyone's experience, but I'm constantly researching/learning/talking about supposedly nonstandard relationship models and.....ouch. That shit came off pretty cold.

Ophelia

@WaityKatie I love the idea of your web-site! Are you going to call it A-Date?

My atheist husband and I managed to find each other sans website, but totally would've signed up for that!

New Commenter Name

@Third Wave Housewife
I don't regret my comment at all. I am genuinely curious about what this letter writer is trying to achieve. She talks about wanting to "make moves" which I also personally equate with making sexual advances, then she tells us she is not interested in sex, but she might grudgingly give it up if he wants to have sex.

Sounds like maybe she's unsure? Or maybe she is totally sure of what she's after, but didn't have the space to explain within the 300 word limit? Either way, I'm confused. But maybe it's just me.

wharrgarbl

@WaityKatie I think a lot of bigger cities already have something like that. Like, it's a site to meet groups of people with similar interests to hang out with, and people can identify as looking for a romantic relationship, but everyone on them self-identifies as very-low-libido/asexual, so everybody's clued in that this isn't a proper boots-knocking dating site.

themmases

@Curiouser and curiouser I am not asexual, and I'm sure it's different for many people, but I've gotten the impression that many asexual people are still romantic-- they are different things, and not feeling one doesn't mean you won't feel the other. And, of course, many asexual people still fall somewhere on the spectrum with the rest of us of needing physical and emotional closeness with others, maybe wanting to feel like they have their person/people just like many sexual people do.

Asexual people aren't necessarily repulsed by sex or anything, and some of them do enjoy it with a partner for the above-mentioned physical/emotional intimacy reasons and because they like doing something that makes their partner happy. Some people consider themselves asexual because they don't experience sexual attraction towards other people, but it doesn't mean they don't feel/enjoy sexual sensation by themselves, or that being sexual with a partner would be a huge stretch for them. Other asexual people form non-monogamous relationships with their sexual partners.

Sorry if this is all stuff you know, but I feel like asexual people kind of get dumped on when the assumption is made that they just want a special friendship, or want to get a sexual person into an unfulfilling monogamous relationship. There are lots of different asexual people and they form lots of different kinds of relationships, one of which could hopefully work for the LW and the object of her affection.

stuffisthings

@Ophelia Me and some friends spent way, way too long brainstorming a name for a J-Date/Grindr mashup at the bar the other day. I think maybe we settled on MenschHunt?

New Commenter Name

@themmases
Thank you for the thoughtful explanation. I didn't know any of that stuff, mostly because I've never put much thought into asexuality and what it means for a relationship.
@ everyone else - I do not consider myself a judgmental person and I am sorry if my original question came across that way. I was / am genuinely surprised at the reaction in some of the replies as I was only trying to express curiosity. I do realize that curiosity can be offensive to some people, so again I apologize.

Passion Fruit

@themmases No, this is all so helpful. I have a hard time parsing romantic interest from sexual interest. I mean, I don't even know what an exclusively romantic, non-sexual, evening would look like because the two overlap so much for me.

realtalk

@stuffisthings this is perfect.

@curiouser and curiouser there are a LOT of different ways for relationships to work, so since you're having trouble visualizing how this might look: one solution is sexual nonmonogamy (the non-asexual partner sleeps with other people but has made an emotional and intimate commitment to the asexual partner), another is maybe the asexual person helping the sexual person masturbate, another is that maybe the sexual person doesn't really need sex to feel fulfilled in a traditional monogamous relationship. etc etc etc. think outside the box!

H.E. Ladypants

@Curiouser and curiouser Many (but not all!) asexual people still have romantic feelings even if they don't have sexual ones! A romantic relationship is a lot of things aside from sex. It means emotional intimacy and affection, trust, and time spent together. Not being intersted in sex doesn't mean not being intersted in all those other things. And from an asexual perspective, "I care about you enough to attempt sex" is actually a pretty big offer.

How said dude is going to feel about it is a whole other kettle of fish but who knows- maybe he is asexual himself! (Wouldn't that be the jackpot?)

Oliver St. John Mollusc

@Curiouser and curiouser It's not just you, I was also SUPER confused by what this LW is after. I get that being asexual can encompass a lot of different scenarios and I am totally on board with her pursuing whichever one fits her specific wants/needs. But she's "not really interested" in sex but "willing" to do it with this guy, and planning on telling the next dude after this one that she's "not going to bang him." Wha? Again, not trying to judge -- she should do whatever makes her happy and use whatever verbiage she feels best fits her situation. But she might need to do some soul-searching before she makes any moves on this dude (and use more than 300 words when she's explaining things to him!).

AndSomethingElse

@quickdrawkiddo Well, I mean, I imagine she's just saying "I don't like sex but I'll do it occasionally if you really want it," the same way all kinds of people say "I don't like [performing oral, giving backrubs, fixing your car, whatever] but will put up with it occasionally because I get that it's important to you." Seems reasonable - and, as Ladypants says, a pretty big offer.

WaityKatie

@Ophelia YES HOW DID YOU KNOW IT WAS A-DATE?? Send me your single atheist friends!

Oliver St. John Mollusc

@Alexander Sure, that part makes sense. I just got confused when I read down further to where she's already planning on telling any subsequent gentleman friends that there will be no sex ever (if I am indeed reading that part right). If it's something she might do with the current dude, why is it being ruled out in the future? It seems like there's a big difference between "I'm not interested in sex but I'll do it if you want" and "I'm not going to bang you, end of story," so I'm curious about why she doesn't foresee the former situation as more of the norm going forward if that's how she feels now. Again, not at all saying that isn't a workable solution! Just not clear on what she's looking for.

WaityKatie

@Alexander It's nice of her to offer and all, but I can't imagine anything more depressing than having sex with someone who was doing it just to make me happy. It's nice that they want me to be happy, but...ugh.

AndSomethingElse

Quickdraw, she did say she'd have to tell future lovers that she doesn't *want* to bang them, which is in keeping with what seems like her general plan to put up with it occasionally.

@WaityKatie Ah...as someone who was once on the receiving end of "Okay FINE I'll give you a stupid blowjob because it's your birthday, but I'm gonna keep watching America's Next Top Model while I do it," that's an excellent point.

themmases

@Passion Fruit It is really hard for me to picture, too. I've heard some asexual people describe just not getting sex, like sexual people all have some weird hobby they just don't see the point of, and it's easier for me to think about it that way. Like, my boyfriend has hobbies I just don't care for, but I'll still sometimes go to an event with him or talk to him about them. We don't stop enjoying each other's company and having rapport while I indulge him with a game of Dominion. I love that he gets his D&D itch scratched with friends who are actually interested, I'm certainly not jealous. And I can oblige with-- and even feel fulfilled by-- providing bad-day snuggles even when my plan for the evening was to be all "no touching!"

It's harder for me to imagine the experiences of asexual people who really don't want sexuality to be part of their romantic relationships, and don't feel like it's something they can extend themselves to do with their partners-- it sounds way harder than anything I do in my relationship, for sure.

themmases

@WaityKatie I don't know, if the LW doesn't have any really bad experiences around sex that would make it difficult or traumatic for her, and has all the other romantic/enjoys being close to/enjoys making happy feelings about her partner, I don't think that would have to be depressing. We've all seen sexuality performed so much that it can be hard even for sexual ladies [raises hand] to parse where fun ends and performance begins, even when we know fun is being had. I don't think an asexual person who genuinely wants to be there, for any reason, would necessarily be more depressing or awkward than a sexual person.

All of that depends on honesty though! I would feel really bad if I only found out after that a partner was not getting sexy fun specifically out of our sex, even if they honestly wanted to be with me for another reason. It would ruin my sense of being one who bangs ethically.

WaityKatie

@themmases I think it would be. For me. It's different when it's like, "I enjoy having sex with you in general but today I don't feel like it, but I will try to get into it anyway to make you happy." That's ok. But "I have no desire to have sex with you ever, but I love you and so will grit my teeth through the (at best ) boredom because I know it is something you enjoy." What? I know that asexuality is an orientation and not about rejecting me specifically, but...my self esteem wouldn't be high enough to handle that.

Porn Peddler

@themmases Well, performance CAN be fun...and getting pleasure out of giving pleasure...also a thing. I dunno, seems reasonable enough to me.

PistolPackinMama

@Third Wave Housewife I was going to say... we perform our identities all the time on all kinds of levels. Performance can just be intentional action in the world, framed in a particular context. We perform being our professions, our friendships, or whatever else. Performance doesn't mean lack of genuineness or presence of pretending.

There's a difference between performing sexuality and faking sexual interest or pleasure. I think we just attribute high levels of meaning to how we behave during sex and how we perform sexuality because it is A Very Big Thing, Different From Other Things. Asexuality has a place in that dynamic- I don't understand why there couldn't be satisfaction in a sexual experience, or the performance of it, without actual Sexytimes Bathingsuit Feelings.

estraven

@quickdrawkiddo pretty sure the "I'll have to say I don't want to bang him" is just a flip way of saying she'll need to tell anyone she wants to date that she's asexual, not the literal words she plans to use. It's a pretty scary thing to tell someone who might reject you for it, it helps to be able to joke about it without intense close readings.

I want all the sex that I have, and I enjoy it, and it makes me happy. I wouldn't be having it if any of those things weren't true. I was never "particularly interested" in having sex before my current relationship, and now my boyfriend claims he's never had sex as good as the sex he has with me. Which, maybe that's something men all say to their sex partners, but it seems like a silly thing to lie to your asexual partner about.

wharrgarbl

@PistolPackinMama I think part of why we sort of cringe a little when we see it is because we're already put under so much pressure to perform, perform, perform, smother what you really want and perform! that it's hard to tease out of the Stockholm Syndrome Sexuality. There are so many women who are already so divorced from themselves as anything other than performers that we can see it even when the individual situation is perfectly fine and great for the people actually involved.

staircases

@themmases For a self-proclaimed non-asexual person, you did a great job of explaining it.

@ Curiouser and curiouser If you visit the forums of asexuality.org, you will quickly see that there is such a spectrum of what individuals who all identify as asexual desire from relationships. "Asexual", as a label can include people who think sex is totally disgusting and would never want to do it, and it can also include people who are sexually active in long-term monogamous relationships but acknowledge that they don't have a sex drive. There are so many permutations of what individuals could want or be capable of in terms of relationships and sex, that it's super important for LW3 to be very forthcoming about her wants and needs, because it's not a simple thing to communicate.

LW3, I know it's difficult, and it's an awkward thing to bring up, but you owe it to this awesome guy to be as up-front and straightforward as possible. I feel for how hard this will continue to be for you, but as of yet I haven't found a great way to break this, probably because there's just no good way to say what amounts to most people to be bad news, seeing as most regular dudes who you date will probably want to do the sex with you (only a projected 1% of the population identifies as asexual, so the chances of encountering someone like this without seeking them out are slim). Don't prolong it, just get it out there. This dude is probably going to continue operating under the assumption that you are a Sexual Lady Who Needs Sex like the majority of humans, and it's got to be a special kind of torture to have your advances be continually rebuffed and not know that it's not your fault. Also, sex is a Very Important Thing for a lot of people, and he might not be a great match with you in that respect, and would appreciate the opportunity to cut and run before a great deal is invested in this.

angelene

@H.E. Ladypants I don't think there's anything wrong with asexuality – if the guy is asexual too, or not especially sex-driven, great – but if she wants to have a monogamous relationship with someone who does want/expect sex, it will be difficult – perhaps not impossible, but tough.

If she really likes him, and if he does want a sexual relationship, I'd recommend she get her hormone levels checked, rather than going along with sex for his sake, which sounds miserable. I only say this because I experienced a total dive in my libido, completely separate from my love for my partner – I still wanted hugs and closeness, but that was all I wanted. Turned out it was because I was on a progesterone-only pill that altered my hormones, and doses of oestrogen got my libido back.

I'm not trying to say this is necessarily the case for asexuality – I don't know what causes it, and I don't mean that there is a 'right' kind of hormonal balance, or that she try to should change herself if she feels this is her true identity. But joyless sex would be damaging to trust – more so than abstinence, I think – that I just feel she should explore whether there is any way at all of making enjoyment possible for her, if she decides to go ahead. I agree, though, that nothing can happen unless she expresses her feelings for the guy, and that there are many kinds of valid relationships.

staircases

@nestingdoll You're correct in your assertion that we're not really sure what causes asexuality, while we have explanations for decreased libido like you encountered. Lifelong lack of libido though, that's something different. I encountered this with my doctor, who referred me to counseling instead of approaching this as a medical problem.

She may not find sex with this man to be joyless - there are so many varieties of things that can be gained from sex that she could find valuable, just valuable in a different way than him. She could appreciate the closeness or the intimacy, or value it as a way to show her affection to him, or even just feel happy and satisfied by making him feel happy and satisfied. I guess no one will know until LW3 takes that plunge.

shantasybaby

@themmases Hah, I love playing Dominion! But now my dude has moved on to Magic which I enjoy less. I just had to reply to a Dominion shoutout- may your Curse cards be few and your Provinces be many!

PistolPackinMama

@wharrgarbl Yeah, I do understand that. That's why I kind of like liberating performance as a concept away from the association with faking/pretending. Sexuality has so many factors in its dynamics, that thinking about it as having intention behind all of it, and a particular context in which it happens helps me think about "what am I doing, and why am I doing it?" It's a way of understanding feelings in context.

PS... yes, I have done performance studies, and that might explain some of this... IT IS RELEVANT IN THE WORLD, YES IT IS.

itmakesmewonder

@Curiouser and curiouser Uh, making it out that people called your comment judgmental because they're "offended by curiosity" is patronizing and also missing the point. If your original comment was meant with an open mind and heart and a spirit of intellectual curiosity, it sure doesn't read that way at all, and not because I find curiosity offensive. Leading questions and a seemingly snide tone do not an open mind express.

TheDragon

@staircases
I want to thank you for your patience in educating everyone. My older sister is asexual, and as a girl with a ridiculous sex-drive (We joke that something got messed up, and I got all of her's) it's sometimes hard for me to understand her. She is also intensely private, and doesn't really like talking about it, so it has, at times been really hard for me to relate to her when we talk about dudes, and I've caught myself judging her a time or two.
I really enjoyed reading your explanations, and the link you gave. It makes sense that there are different "levels" (for lack of a better word) of asexuality, just like there are different "levels" of homo/heterosexual, or S&M, or anything that people do/want in bed.
Here's to being more accepting and understanding of everyone.

Passion Fruit

@themmases Hmm, yeah, that makes alot of sense. Wanting emotional/relationship intimacy with snuggling and a sense of you're-so-special fidelity (not necessarily sexual fidelity, but emotional loyalty, I guess).

Sex and relationships are so interesting. I remember reading a NYTimes article on a high-functioning autistic couple, and their dilemma was one partner wanting sex but little/no cuddling, and the other partner wanting both.

I have trouble separating love from sex. I can't do casual sex very well, or at least I haven't been able to. Afterwards, I'm all, "So... Is this love? Do you love me now? Because my downstairs is telling me yes, this is and you do."

Passion Fruit

@Passion Fruit Which obviously leads to problems, especially when I don't actually like the guy's personality. Like, "Hey, you tricked me! Now I feel attached to you, but I actually think you're a douche bag!"

WaityKatie

@Passion Fruit Ahhhahhaaa that has happened to me so many times.

Gnatalby

@Passion Fruit Oh god, I am having that *now.*

baklava!

@Passion Fruit Testify.

annev6

Uhm, LW#4 - TELL! TELL TELL TELL!!
Dan Savage once said about seeing a closeted guy at a gay bar that the appropriate response is to tap him on the shoulder and say "welcome out".
I think the same rationale applies to this situation. Anytime you're making out with someone in public, the public seeing it and talking about it is completely fair game. If this guy cared at all about getting caught he wouldn't be hooking up outdoors. *note, I'm not equating being gay with cheating, just that secret sexual behaviors are no longer secret when done in public. This is just life.
TELL TELL TELL!

spicywing

LW2: Leave this dude's nipples alone. He's obviously fine with them and so is his girlfriend.

Diana

@spicywing

But his coworkers aren't? It isn't really up to him to decide whether his nipples are appropriate accessories for the workplace, it's up to the corporate dress code - which, not incidentally, was developed to prevent uncomfortable situations precisely like this one.

bangs
bangs

@spicywing If he meets with clients it could be an issue. Like it or not people are superficial.

spicywing

@spicywing

Wow, I am really debating a stranger's co-worker's male nipples on the internet. I should probably get back to work.

PistolPackinMama

@spicywing I hate "A few of have noticed" as a part of the puzzle of discussion. "A few of us were confused by the assignment, thus my argument has more merit." Well, maybe. But you're the only one in the office now. You think telling me "a few" is going to make you get a result, when all it does is piss me off that "a few" people made you the messenger.

If you're going to bring up the nipples, just say "it's not appropriate, get an undershirt." But in a nice way. Don't make yourself sound like a freshman too scared to own their own issues. Or worse, like a person who is ganging up on the dude and risking his feeling super-defensive. OH HAI WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOU NBD.

Better yet, tell your superviser and let them handle it.

angelinha

@PistolPackinMama Yeah, I think it's weird for her to say anything (I liked the suggestion that the girlfriend say something, if anything has to be said at all), but really really weird to communicate that a group of his co-workers were talking about his nipples behind his back. One person maximum, if that.

fabel

@spicywing I agree with you... LW, please ignore the poor dude's nipples & OMG don't even think about telling his (hypothetical) girlfriend. If one of my boyfriend's female co-workers approached me like "So...a few of us in the office noticed that Jon doesn't wear undershirts and well, his nipples are just...too visible, you know?" I don't even know what'd I say.

Xanthophyllippa

@Diana I don't know where you work, but my dress code doesn't say anything about nipples. More's the pity.

MKE
MKE

i would be horrified if someone took me out for drinks (or ANYWHERE PUBLIC) to tell me my spouse is cheating! yiiiiikes!

BoozinSusan

@MKE Yeah, public situaysh, not so much. If it's going to be told, I'd definitely let her know somewhere private.

Diana

I don't even understand why your boyfriend would care that you told him an insignificant lie about an awkward and irrelevant truth. Most women just do a "lie by omission" anyway. Why would he be angry? "Not the actual lie, but WHY you lied and why you never trusted him with the truth. That's worse than the lie, the fact that you didn't trust that he could handle the truth." Dude, chill out. Losing her virginity doesn't sound like it was a particularly big deal to her, so why would she need to bring it up? It's not really any of her boyfriend's business. This is what we call a "white lie". I'm sure my boyfriend doesn't think I can handle the truth if I do, in fact, look really fat in those jeans, that doesn't mean our relationship is built on a foundation of lies and deceit. Lady Friend, I guess you can tell him rather than let this lie eat away at you, but I'm not sure I understand why it's eating away at you. But stop psyching yourself out that it's a relationship-wrecking lie. I mean, if this guy DOES dump you because oops, you fudged the details of your sexual experience in a harmless way (as opposed to maybe lying about having 300 partners and never getting tested or something) then, frankly, he sounds kinda weird to me. Not every single fact of your existence is your boyfriend's business. I don't owe my boyfriend a list of every dude I slept with before him, and neither do you. Your list just happens to be nonexistent, but the principle is the same.

I think the Dude's answer to LW#2 is strangely flippant. Do you really not understand why it would be awkward for a young woman to talk to her older male coworker about his nipples? You can't think of any possible reason why that might be inappropriate? Maybe she should bring it up to a mutual friend co-worker who is male and might feel comfortable telling this guy but even so, now you've got more of your office talking about the poor guy's nipples. Do you have an HR department? Otherwise, hell, just print out a little anonymous note and leave it on his keyboard. Also? "When you gaze into the nipple, the nipple gazes back at you." I like you!

Stefanie J@twitter

@Diana I knowwwww I thought the response to LW2 was way too flippant as well! I'm just imagining telling something like that to an older male coworker (I can think of a few, though luckily for me none of them have a nipple problem) and I'm just mortified by proxy. Yeeeeesh. I have no advice to give in that regard.

Lily Rowan

Seriously, I'm going to say that 90% of the time, people should not bring up nipples at work and ESPECIALLY to someone of a different gender.

stuffisthings

@Lily Rowan Contrary to what I posted below, I have now developed an opinion on this subject, and it's that I (a Dude) would feel quite awkward bringing this up with someone significantly older/more senior than me. Then again, it also wouldn't bother me in the slightest, and I don't think "get over it" is the advice LW2 wanted to hear, either.

camanda

@Diana A gentleman I work with has a significant ass-crack problem. Like, perma-plumber butt. We've complained, he's been talked to, and it's still going on. I don't know if they're afraid of saying anything direct to him? But it's gross. And out of like 20 managers in the place, three are male, two are in any position to really say anything to him, and only one of those is in the building on a daily basis. So, yeah, nothing is getting done about it. I hope LW2 has better luck than we're having.

Xanthophyllippa

@camanda Maybe you could start an office contest to see who can chuck the most nickles down the ol' coin slot? Or ice cubes. That'll break him of that habit right quick.

chickaboom

@Diana Yeah, being a Young Woman in an office of Significantly Older Gentlemen (or not-so-Gentlemen) was really uncomfortable me and I could NEVER talk to anyone about a problem such as these nips. The coworker whose desk was right in front of mine one day was looking at a picture of some young, very scantily clad co-eds (around my recently-graduated age? UGH) on his screen when I stood up... We never spoke of it, but oh, he knows I saw.

MerelyGoodExpectations

Well, you know what happened when Polonius followed his own advice, right? He got STABBED, behind the ARRAS.

meetapossum

@MerelyGoodExpectations "Polonius?? What are you doing behind the curtain?"
"I hide behind curtains because I have a fear of getting stabbed!"

SuperGogo

@MerelyGoodExpectations Edited: To thine own self* be true.

*Unless thine own self is a conniving sneak who's pissing off a deranged prince.

martinipie

I tried the whole "pretending this isn't my first time" thing for my first time and that lie was quickly exposed by the absurd amounts of blood that ensued. I am amazed and slightly jealz that LW1 had a seemingly incident-free first time!

realtalk

@martinipie I started using a Diva Cup before I first had sex. Pretty sure I either never had a hymen or I broke it when I started sticking my cup up there?

Judith Slutler

@martinipie Mine had to be snipped so that I could even use tampons, because apparently it was a tenacious motherfucker of a hymen. At the time that was basically the most mortifying procedure to go through. But afterwards I was pretty happy that it made the whole losing my virginity thing completely drama-free!

BadWolf

@martinipie Hah, I tried it too, and I am pretty sure he figured it out at some point during the proceedings----not sure if it was my pained expression or my inability to manage my legs that gave me away. (Because, really. Do they go over his shoulder? Over my head? Also ow?) And afterward, I just had to come right out and tell him, and it was still awful. So I am mad jealous of this lady, and her Stealth Cherry Poppin' Skillz.

angelinha

@martinipie I knowww! I have friends - and a sister, guess she got the lucky genes - who didn't tell the guys before their first times. I would have told him anyway but was SO glad that I had when I felt what it is like to have a big hard penis pushing into your tiny tiny delicate flowery vagina. Ow.

angelinha

@angelinha Um, that makes it sound kind of terrible. It hurt, but he was gentle and I was very consenting. Okay.

TheDragon

@angelinha
I was CONVINCED that I was "loose and gross" when I lost my virginity because I COULDN'T tell when he was in me. Like ever. In five months of sexual activity.
Then about a year later, I had sex again and was like... ooohhhhh...This is what people are so jazzed about. Damn. I get it.
I've never looked back.

TheDragon

@The Kendragon Ewww and I can't believe I said Lost my Virginity.

HappyBeet

@The Kendragon I had the same confusion when I lost my virginity, except I actually asked him: "Sooo, like, are you in me?" Turned out he was. Oh well, he turned to be even juicier than my box.

TheDragon

@HappyBeet
Are you me? I asked him if he was in too. He informed me he'd been in for awhile and then got up and stormed off. He later cheated on me.
Also, I love your last sentence. Awesome thing to wake up to.

Megasus

@The Kendragon At least you didn't say "stamped my V-card"

TheDragon

@Megan Patterson@facebook Is that like a passport?

Elvis Costello's Spectacles

I got really worried when I started reading LW1's first paragraph, wondering what the huge "BUT" would be that followed the intro about how amazing he is. I am glad today's column turned out less stressful than expected! (Not to belittle the problem; just relieved we don't have another horrifying juicebox on our hands.)

lil_bobbytables

@Elvis Costello's Spectacles I know. After "He's awesome!" I have been trained to expect "except for how he keeps turning all my relatives into a stew and serving it to all of my friends, and also punts baby seals on the weekends."

thebestjasmine

@Elvis Costello's Spectacles Hahaha me too exactly.

SarahP

@lil_bobbytables Yessssss me too. Or for the letter writer to have some TERRIBLE secret, like the fact that she's ben sleeping with Bob for years. I like this LW and the answer!

Elvis Costello's Spectacles

@lil_bobbytables "But he only does that when he's hungry, and, you know, that's only about 40% of the time so I put up with it! And really it's my fault for pointing out that Aunt Martha had gained weight lately."

fondue with cheddar

I lost my virginity at age 17, and I didn't tell my 19-year-old boyfriend it was my first time until afterward. He was utterly shocked and probably kind of uncomfortable. I'd slept with him after only two weeks of dating and I didn't bleed, so I think a lot of assumptions came along with that. I'd feel bad, but he was kind of a jerk and broke up with me so he could sleep with college girls (but hey, at least he didn't just cheat on me). He tried to get with me when I got to college, but I refused (which felt SO GOOD).

Diana

@jen325

I think he sounds weird and probably had all sorts of stupid assumptions about female virginity and sexuality. Sucks to be him.

fondue with cheddar

@Diana Actually, he wasn't that bad. I was pretty upset at the time that he broke up with me because I was 17 and still had grand, romantic notions of Futures with my boyfriends. So I thought he was a jerk at the time but really, a college student is better off dating other college students anyway (as opposed to high school students). He was a little sleazy with his attempt at bedding me later, though.

Oh, and I should clarify that he didn't break up with me right after we'd slept together the first time. We dated for nine months, and he was generous in bed and quite skillful. He's still among the best lovers I've had.

a horde of great crab things

I'm sorry, doughnuts do *what*?

angelinha

@a horde of great crab things I had to stop and google this. Good news, you digest a donut in 6-8 hours and it doesn't appear to last. Though if my search suggestions are any indication a lot of people have heard otherwise.

AndSomethingElse

LW3: Good for you for figuring out what you are and being okay with it! That's awesome! As I'm sure you already know, various people will be okay or not okay with this to varying degrees, just like any number of other things like religion or politics or reading Twilight. How comfortable would you be with creative arrangements? For instance, if he suggests that you have an open relationship so he can have sex with others?

I ask because sex is super important for me personally, but being with a totally awesome lady is hella important; creativity might be the only honest way I (personally) could work with this.

If I were this guy, here's what I'd want to hear: Before the next time you see him, give him a call or even an email* and explain that you're asexual. You do not necessarily have to tell him you're into him. But find a way to explain what you told A Dude. (Including the part about "I would have sex rarely with a guy I was really into.") You guys already talk on the phone, so telling him about an important thing for you shouldn't be all that hard to work out. (Will this make it totally obvious that you're into him? Maybe less than you'd think, and you'll still have plausible deniability, and who cares.)

* I know email's considered a wussy way to do these things but whatever, man. Do what you gotta do.

I had a similar kind of thing a while back: I was about to see a woman and I was pretty sure our feelings were mutual and there was something I needed her to know before we got involved. Before, specifically; I didn't want to, y'know, make out with her and then ambush her with what I thought might be a dealbreaker for her. Months later, she says that phone call was when she knew she was really into me: I'd trusted her with something important and really opened up to her. And while it wasn't her favoritest thing I'd ever told her, she was okay with it because she did have feelings for me, and we all got something we gotta tell you. The something makes you normal; the telling makes you brave.

And include a link to something that explains asexuality, so he can understand that this isn't, like, You Personally; the new way of thinking about this is that it's an entire group of people who aren't abnormal or damaged, they're just not really into sex.

Good luck, LW3.

Stefanie J@twitter

@Alexander You're cool! Good advice.

Diana

@Alexander

"we all got something we gotta tell you. The something makes you normal; the telling makes you brave."

Damn! You are like a less meandering male Sugar!

ironhoneybee

@Diana Ask An Alexander!

staircases

@Alexander This was great, and also very informative. Thank you - I will use this in the future.

wharrgarbl

LW#1...how the hell would this dude ever find out about it if you don't tell him? I mean, tell him or don't, it's obviously up to you and NBD one way or another. But. This seems like one of those things where just letting it go already might be the least-ridiculous route.

stuffisthings

Can we talk about the nipple guy? I don't really have any opinions but I feel like LW#2 is getting the short shrift here.

redheaded&crazy

@stuffisthings Can we just talk about nipples generally?

paddlepickle

@redheaded&crazie Ever since I have been showering regularly in a gym locker room I am constantly marveling about nipples. There are SO MANY KINDS! They're all different! Like snowflakes!

Jenny Cox

@redheaded&crazie "It's time to take off my bra and blast my nips!"

stuffisthings

@paddlepickle Ew, yours look like snowflakes? (JUST KIDDING)

paddlepickle

@stuffisthings I WISH.

slutberry

@stuffisthings @redheaded&crazie A short poem entitled "Nipples".

Written for redheadedandcrazy, with a nod to LW#2's work buddy.

Nipples are fun, nipples are nice
Never combine a nipple with spice!
Unless you mean cinnamon, that should be fine,
habanero or cayenne or sriracha-- NEIN!

Nipples come in colours like orange and pink
Sometimes they are more browney, I think.
They can be little or they can be big,
The size of a pea or the size of a fig!

Nipples are funny; crop up in odd places
In the chair while the dentist's adjusting your braces
Out in the park holding hands in the night
In the day in your office under fluorescent lights.

All people have nipples, no matter how small
Girls, boys, and women, and men, too, (bizarre!)
Some flatter, some taller, some lopsided, too,
Some people have three, like this guy I once knew!

Nipples can be used for, oh, so many things!
Licking and nibbling and tying with strings,
Sometimes they even produce richly milk
(But mostly they're good for sex, and stuff of that ilk)

Nipples are fun, but sometimes we don't want 'em
To pop out and say "Hi!" to any old Taunton
That's why we have brassieres, and undershirts, too.
This stanza may just be applicable to YOU!

Nipples are great; treat your nipples with care
With oils and kisses and nice underwear
Enjoy them; caress them; treat them as your friends
And may they stay with you until your life ends!

stuffisthings

@teffodee OK, so problem solved. LW2 just needs to recite that loudly in the middle of the office. LW2, does your office have some kind of PA system?

Decca

@teffodee Bravo!

Megasus

@stuffisthings I am honestly kind of surprised management hasn't said anything to him, if they're that big/people are complaining.

slutberry

@paddlepickle When my Gentleman was a small, he became inconsolable one day and wailed to his mama, "MOMMY nipples. DADDY nipples. Gentleman NO NIPPLES!" His mama could not convince him that he, too, had nipples and was not defective.

slutberry

@stuffisthings Or perhaps a memo?

redheaded&crazy

@teffodee THAT. WAS. BRILLIANT.

made my day a million times better!

slutberry

@redheaded&crazie I live to serve and aim to please.

Passion Fruit

@teffodee Yeah, that was seriously amazing. On such short notice! Brava, brava.

isavedlatin

It's just like Hamlet said, "To thine own self be true."

Decca

@isavedlatin Well, I remember Mel Gibson accurately, and he didn't say that. That Polonius guy did.

Tuna Surprise

LW4 - please just tell your friend. Discretely, kindly, and briefly.

After my husband and I broke up (but before we had really made much of a public announcement about it), one of my friends and her boyfriend saw him with another woman in public AND surreptitiously followed my ex and his new lady around to find out what was going on.

Instead of my 'friend' telling me what she saw, she emailed all of our mutual friends and starting a big drama-fest of "OMG! Should I tell her?" A week or so later, at the end of heavy night of drinking, the snooper boyfriend corners me and says "I saw your ex with a new lady! How do you feel about that?" Well, boyfriend-of-a-friend whom I hardly know, since you've asked, I feel pretty shitty about the divorce and am not keen on talking about it. He then lies to my face and says he saw the ex with the lady when he was alone and didn't tell anyone (including his girlfriend/my friend).

After that confrontation, I sent all of my friends a long email saying 'sorry you've been in the dark, but the divorce has been in the works for much longer than you realized and I knew about this lady but it isn't anybody's biz because she came along post-break up. so please leave him and her alone'.

A different friend then sent me the email shitstorm that transpired when my friend thought it was prudent to tell everyone but me. Ugh. I felt completely betrayed.

AndSomethingElse

@Tuna Surprise OMG everything about this story is awful. *Expression of sympathy*

Judith Slutler

@Tuna Surprise That's horrible. WTF

sevanetta

@Tuna Surprise Dear God. I'm so sorry that happened :( oh well... as my best friend and I say (post 2 awful breakups that decimated our friendship group)... time for new friends?

baklava!

@Tuna Surprise That is terrible and sad and I am sorry it happened. Contrast with my wonderful friend who phoned me up one morning sounding really upset and was like "I have to tell you something and I am really scared that you are going to be mad but I wanted a friend to tell you before you find out some other terrible way". And hoo boy she was so right, it was way nicer to hear from someone that really cared about me than a bunch of people who had been gossipping about it behind my back. At least the whole idea of trust between people was not destroyed along with my relationship.

MilesofMountains

LW#1 it seems to be worrying you, so tell him, but I really don't think it's a big deal? I have inflated my number with guys with whom I've had trusting, long-term relationships with because they asked at the beginning of their relationship and I didn't trust them yet and it wasn't their business anyway. Until now, I never really even considered the idea that this was somehow a betrayal and I should "come clean" any more than I would come clean about telling them "no, that dinner totally wasn't too salty. I couldn't even tell they'd accidentally put a tablespoon of salt in instead of a tablespoon of sugar! I'm sure no one else noticed"

AniaGosia

LW #1 Maybe you can try to "make a move" by holding hands and snuggling and (if you're into it) kissing. Once you've broken the ice there and established the mutual liking, then you can have the talk about sex. That way you can ease into it a little.

AniaGosia

@AniaGosia Oops, I meant LW #3 or whichever one. The asexual one!

diesel_vontrapp

@AniaGosia Hmm, I dunno... assuming everyone here is a full-grown adult type person, I know that I, personally, would feel pretty crushed if a person I was interested in initiated hand holding and kissing PRIOR to telling me that was as far as they ever wanted to go. But maybe I'm too sex-focused.

shantasybaby

@diesel_vontrapp I would like to think if she's pretty close to the guy that she'd have some idea if he's a total horndog or if he has a lower sex drive that would be more workable in a relatinoship with her. Because, sure they could do nonmonogamy/occasional sexytimes for his sake but I'd say that most sexual people enjoy/require mututal desire and sex with their primary romantic partner, at least for a while, to solidify the bond. Not saying the bond can't exist without sex, but it's pretty important to sexual people (and it's assumed he is a sexual person since she'd likely mention if he was asexual because then she'd have no question to ask, they'd be perfect for each other!)

frigwiggin

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm singing Norm Sherman's "Everybody's Got Nipples" to myself right now. (Hit "Listen" on the lefthand side of the screen. It's worth it.)

Mr. Kitty

The question the last LW wants answered can only be answered by herself. It's a personal preference. There is no universal right answer. LW is not going to win in this situation, so she needs to decide what's best for her. I'm a big proponent of Minding My Own Business, but since it's her best friend, it's a little different. My advice is to approach duder first, because let's face it, you never know what is really going on in someones relationship. Open relationships are not uncommon.

I think the most important thing, though, is that even though it's your best friend, she can still shoot the messenger. She may not believe it, she may be so embarrassed that it was seen in public that she refuses to believe it and will instead cling to whatever bullshit excuse her husband gives. She may accuse the LW of lying due to her fictional jealousy. You never know how someone's going to handle the news that their spouse is cheating on them (which is why it's absolutely best to let the offender confess and deal with it himself).

If you want to fess up about the kiss scene, please please please don't expect your friend to deal with it in the way you think is best. Just tell her and be there for her, no matter how she copes.

hoo:ha

I just haaaaaayte that we live in a society where this woman would get so upset about ANYONE's nipples.

Say it with me: We. Are. Mammals.

slutberry

@hoo:ha We. Are. Mammals.

slutberry

@teffodee THAT WAS NOT THE TRANSFORMATIVE COMMUNAL EXPERIENCE I HOPED IT WOULD BE.

leastimportantperson

@teffodee I said it and now everyone is looking at me?

slutberry

@leastimportantperson Perhaps we should put on monkey suits and run about the city.

whizz_dumb

@teffodee Why bother with the monkey suits? Get rid of your clothes, seriously, they are oppressive.

Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy)

Does anyone want to immediately tell Biblically Kissed Man that you KNOW, and that you know that he knows what the right thing to do is (assuming he is not on the up-and-up) and then watch him squirm and hold it over his head and basically blackmail him into telling his wife?

Just me? Okay. I'll be in my sociopathic corner here, making little x's through his eyes.

Donovan Gentry@twitter

I feel like most if not all dudes need to wear undershirts, regardless of nipplage.

Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy)

@Donovan Gentry@twitter Yes, I didn't know undershirts were optional? Fig 2 always wears one with dress shirts.

slutberry

@Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy) Gentleman doesn't, but he also rarely wears light colours.

LeafySeaDragon

@Donovan Gentry@twitter i know for a fact that my husband considers them a necessity, but he also thinks short sleeve dress shirts are Of The Devil, so there is that.

Xanthophyllippa

@LeafySeaDragon Short-sleeved dress shirts ARE Of The Devil. As are white socks with dress shoes.

slutberry

@Xanthophyllippa As are khakis. And polo shirts. (Oh, you mean that's just me?)

LeafySeaDragon

@Xanthophyllippa lol and ties being any other length than JUST touching the belt buckle. can i interrupt this thread about menswear and talk about how amazing all of nick (grim) and jack's (torchwood) clothes are always ON POINT?

and also that the show breakout kings is hilarious and a stylistic dupe of prison break down to the very makeup on their faces? i just started watching it on netflix (love it!) but it is hilariously bad. eta: i'm not actually sure if it is meant to be as funny as it is. is it billed as a drama?

Xanthophyllippa

@teffodee @LeafySeaDragon YES to both of those. Tiny ties drive me nuts. I'll allow khakis if they're appropriately rumpled and don't have that "I just had my pants pressed by a social inferior" crease down the front. But not with polo shirts, unless the guy works at Target or Best Buy.

carolita

well, it's not a poem, but I did post this cartoon about male nipples a while back, and it's finally relevant today! http://newyorkette.com/wp-content/myeyes_450.jpg

estraven

Hi LW3! fellow asexual lady wanting romantic relationships with men here. I'm terrible at giving advice on the whole because I always think, well I know how it worked for me but maybe it won't work for anyone else! But I can definitely tell you about some of my experiences. I've basically always had one of two situations: someone is pursuing me, in which case I tell him I'm asexual as soon as I can once I realize what's going on. Or I become interested in someone I've known for awhile who already knows I'm asexual. That second situation has worked out pretty well for me, so you might try telling him you're asexual first. If nothing else, it will give him a chance to wonder about all the typical 101 questions without a lot of...personal pressure coloring how he sees the answers. And how he reacts to the idea will give you some gauge of how he might feel about being in an asexual relationship. If he doesn't believe you, or says you just "haven't found the right person," or insists that without sex something just isn't actually a relationship..maybe proceed with caution. What I've seen be the most helpful for people who seem well-meaning but really don't get it, is to explain what I do want from a relationship, and why I consider it romantic and not "just friendship" (intimacy and commitment are the big things for me - when I am really emotionally close to a person, I want physical intimacy with them that goes way beyond what our culture considers friendship, I just don't care much about having sex or orgasms. And I want someone I can settle down and build my life with.)

First, the biggest relationship mistake I ever made (other than general teenage poor emotional judgment) was participating in sexual activity that I wasn't really comfortable with, because I thought it was the right thing to do for the relationship. I *definitely* wasn't being pressured to do anything, but I knew the boy was really, really strongly physically attracted to me, and I wanted to please my him, and I WANTED to want to do those things, and to be happy with them, so I ignored my own vague discomfort and went ahead. And my boyfriend, not being clueless or insensitive, kept asking me if I was really ok, and I kept insisting, and in the end we were both pretty unhappy about the situation. I mean, it wasn't the only problem we had (my discomfort was as much as symptom as its own issue) but I think we would have hurt each other less in the end if I'd been more attuned to my own boundaries.

So now that is my highest priority when it comes to sexual activity with my current partner - I will only consent to an act if I am confident I will really enjoy it. I know I don't feel the physical pleasure from sex with the same intensity and meaning that my current partner does, but there is a sensual pleasure I enjoy in everything we do together, just like I get simple sensual pleasure from hugs or spooning. And on an emotional level, again, I like pleasing my partner, I like seeing him aroused and happy. And I like sharing intimacy with him, it makes me feel that we're close and share a strong bond. Sex is one of several ways we have of affirming intimacy with each other.

I don't know how much physical exploration you've done, but besides coming to understand and respect my boundaries, another thing that helped me was practicing masturbation on my own. I can get physiologically aroused, and even orgasm sometimes, but it's a fairly particular and unreliable process, and intercourse when you're not aroused is Not Awesome. I'd tried and given up several times in the past, actually, thinking I just didn't respond, but then when I realized I was in this really good, serious relationship and wanted to have intercourse with my partner I tried again, and learned more about what my body responds to, and what it feels like when I'm arousable vs. not. So when one of us is initiating I can tell him fairly quickly what I might be up for. And remember, sex means a lot more than P-in-V! That's just the most physically complicated for me and my partner.

PistolPackinMama

@estraven This is awesome. And, your name and icon= <3 <3 <3

sceps yarx

@estraven That was totally good advice. In fact, I think it's good advice for any lady, sexual or asexual. Thanks for commenting!

mackymoo

@estraven There needs to be an Ask an Asexual Person next. This has hit close to home.

Donovanesque

If some person wants to walk around the office with his nipples semi-showing, I figure that is his business. But then, I might not notice in the first place. I am awesome at not noticing things.

needsmoresalt

@PistolPackinMama I just have so much trouble imagining that Nips' or his gf's response to LW is going to be, "thanks so much for letting me know!"

whateverlolawants

@needsmoresalt RIGHT? I would be pretty embarrassed if a male coworker told me that. And all my male coworkers are gay.

Gwdihw

So, not commenting on the nips would equate to the latest Prudie column in which she counseled a coed about not mentioning to her roommate that she could hear her roommate masturbating every night. The coed, not Prudie. My point? I could not let either instance go.

I could never let the nipples go!

angelinha

My office is freeezing and I'm pretty sure my nipples are showing at least 50% of the time, through my bra, and my sweater, and often a tank top too. Maybe it's cold. Look down - are your nipples showing?

Xanthophyllippa

@angelinha Probably. I have titanium nips, and they have, on occasion, poked through even my thickest of well lined sports bras.

@Xanthophyllippa Things I did not know about you, #298.

Xanthophyllippa

@S. Elizabeth See also: things you could know about me if we lived closer together, #298.

heyhaley

LW #4: Not to nitpick -- you seem wonderful! -- but how about just calling your dude a "rational type" instead of a "rational male-type?" WIth different people, the situation could easily be reversed...the lady in the "rational" position and the dude in the "WE HAVE TO TELL HER" role! The dude is not ALWAYS the rational one. Just a thought!

fabel

LW4 I'm usually in the "try to forget what I saw & mind my own business" camp, but for this situation...I think you should say something. Maybe tell your husband to tell the dude what you guys saw? If he wants to play up his "rational male-ness" he could kind of throw you under the bus a little & be like "I didn't want to say anything, but my wife is upset by what we saw & since she's such good friends with _______, I think she might say something! Maybe you should say something before that happens?" That way it doesn't sound like blackmail? (of course, this runs the risk of the guy covering his ass with some excuse)

fabel

LW4 I'm usually in the "try to forget what I saw & mind my own business" camp, but for this situation...I think you should say something. Maybe tell your husband to tell the dude what you guys saw? If he wants to play up his "rational male-ness" he could kind of throw you under the bus a little & be like "I didn't want to say anything, but my wife is upset by what we saw & since she's such good friends with _______, I think she might say something! Maybe you should say something before that happens?" That way it doesn't sound like blackmail? (of course, this runs the risk of the guy covering his ass with some excuse)

irieagogo

This Dude photo LITERALLY reminds me of a (younger) Chris Traeger.

KatnotCat

GO TO HR. GO TO HR. THE ONLY WAY TO TREAD DRESS CODE ISSUES IN THE WORKPLACE IS HR.

LeafySeaDragon

@KatnotCat a million times this! ugh, i had a terrible time many moons ago. i sum up:
- really really hot girl came to work all the time in sarongs (this was ok for the dresscode as we sold sarongs)
- creepy dbag i worked a register with was constantly pointing out sarong girl and telling me about how she had no bra on
- i told sarong girl this
- i got written up for causing issues and caused the whole store to have a sensitivity seminar

i should have told my manager/hr

KatnotCat

@LeafySeaDragon I was literally on the other side of a dress code "issue" (surprise, there wasn't actually an issue, HR told me I was fine) and it would have been far less humiliating if my coworker had handled it any other way but telling me "people were talking about me" and given me advice like "wear a jacket or sweater every day!**"

Seriously, let HR handle it people, please. Easier on everyone involved.

**Hint: I have DDs

LeafySeaDragon

so how is it better for lw4's GUY to go confront cheater-dbag than for her too? really? that just struck me as really sexist. personally i'd just tell my friend. "yo susy, i saw bill when i was out of town and he was hanging out with a blonde woman." that's 'fishing' if she had no idea what i was speaking of i'd then go on to describe said woman and kissing in greater detail. if she knew who the blonde was i'd back off of it and assume they had an open relationship.

PotatoPotato

Couldn't approaching a guy about his nipples be construed as sexual harassment? Methinks this is a quest for HR.

atipofthehat

@PotatoPotato

You have to think your approach through, then tweak it until you get it right.

Xanthophyllippa

@atipofthehat I agree - this situation requires a gentle hand.

PotatoPotato

Your technique has me standing at attention.

karion

LW#4, through no fault of your own, you are in one of the worst friend dilemnas on the planet. There is a right thing to do, but it has a cost, and your relationship with her and them will forever be changed, no matter what.

If you are right - and he is cheating, and she doesn't know, and you tell her, one of two things happen. They break up, or they don't. If they break up, obviously, your relationship with the couple is over. There is also the very real possibility that she will have some displaced (but kind of understandable) anger in your direction. Breakups and divorces have all sorts of raw emotion just bubbling at the surface, and a good deal of it is misdirected and unfounded.

If they don't break up, your relationship with the couple is probably over as well. She will be grateful you told her, but embarrassed that someone knows about the infidelity, and he won't feel comfortable being around you, at least in the short term. That's the kind of intimate knowledge about a relationship that third parties (other than shrinks and counselors) just shouldn't have.

If you are wrong, and it was something that is acceptable in their relationship, and you tell her, it will also affect your friendship with her and them. Hard to know how much, but there is something really violating about someone else sticking their head in your relationship, even when their intentions are the best.

You are in a no win situation, which is why the easy way out is to do nothing. (Note - I would be worried that your BF wants to take the easy way out here, given how close you are with the couple.) And yet, with all of this said, tell your friend. Trust your gut, and tell your friend that what you saw raised all of your spidey senses. Tell her that you didn't want this information, didn't seek it out, and aren't the person who can do anything with it, but you know she is. And then tell her that you will never bring it up to her again, and that she is in no way obligated to share with you what she does with the information.

And then hope like hell for the very best and curse your damned luck for finding information that didn't belong to you.

daylightspool

In response to the discussion above about number of sexual partners, I generally do ask new partners for their number, since I feel it's part of the healthy safe sex talk. I'm not ashamed to say that well, I've lost count, but it's somewhere in the 20+ range. In fact, I'm proud of it. I've had a lot of really good sex with a lot of really interesting people! It's just part of the safe sex talk. I don't care either way...except that I am not keen to sleep with virgins. Also a good litmus test...if anyone balks, then I know to show him or her to the door.

As far as LW4 goes, why is the Letter Writer making all these assumptions about someone else's relationship? As far as friends' relationships go, I stay out of it. I feel like no matter how close I am to someone, I can't ever assume to know the dynamics of his or her relationship(s). They could very well be in an open relationship, for goodness sake, don't be so meddling. And even if he is cheating, that's for them to deal with - not anyone else.

And get over the nipples, LW2, cause guess what? You have them too. And if people would quit freaking out about the human body that we've all got underneath our clothes, there wouldn't be such a goddamn oversexualization of it.

oldfeminist

The answer to LW4 is, send her a letter. Outline only what was seen, as impassively as possible. "I saw Joe on the corner of 4th Street and Corona Avenue in Petaluma California on Monday January 4 2012 and a blonde woman in a green dress came up to him and kissed him very intimately. He did not see me." You have discharged your obligation to inform without injecting yourself into the situation.

Whatever happens next is her choice.

linkaccu

I also kind of told him that I had had sex with my last boyfriend and we even swapped stories about our “first time” everycode

linkaccu

I also kind of told him that I had had sex with my last boyfriend and we even swapped stories about our “first time” Click here

1963248500@twitter

v of told him that I had had sex with my last boyfriend and we even swapped stories about our “first ti indoor dog fence ideas

bill.marks

so kind of told him that I had had sex with my last boyfriend and we even swapped stories about our “first tim rent a tent

Shahzaib Soomrow@facebook

I like the way you described the topic with such clarity. This is something I have been thinking about for a long time and you really captured the essence of the subject.
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