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Friday, April 6, 2012

123

Just a Regular Old Sheep

“Feminists are having a hard time being elected because they essentially are unlikable. ... [F]eminist is a bad word and everything they stand for is bad. ... Find out if your girlfriend is a feminist before you get too far into it. Some of them are pretty. They don’t all look like Bella Abzug.”
—Phyllis Schlafly reveals she's been emotionally scarred by her pretty, feminist ex-girlfriends. No, but she is sharing dating tips with Citadel students.

123 Comments / Post A Comment

Katie Heaney

Fucking Phyllis Schlafly.

chapstick

@Katie Heaney UGH she was on Diane Rehm a couple weeks ago and I wanted to strangle her. Lies, misinformation, and bile is all that this person spouts. All you can do is look on in awe/horror.

julia

@Katie Heaney One of the great shames of my life is that I had to buy a Phyllis Schlafly book for my undergrad library, because I had lost the one I'd borrowed to write a paper.

meatcute

I just. I can't. I can't even. WHAT IS THIS.

Petrichoria

Find out if your girlfriend is a Feminist before things go too far. To find out if she's a Feminist, throw her into a deep river or lake. If she sinks and drowns, you know she was innocent of Feminism. You can keep dating her. Bonus: she'll be quiet and docile from now on.

yeah-elle

It's two minutes shy of 7 a.m. and I already have what feels like heartburn made out of molten lava but is probably just a mixture of rage, a desire for cleansing fire, and wrenching disappointment.

Kate M.D.

@yeah-elle We really, really need a Kill It With Fire button. Maybe with options for Some Fire, A Lot Of Fire, and ALL THE FIRE.

Oh, squiggles

I am really trying hard to learn to see things from the other persons point of view, because I think that helps come to a solution...but I just can't. I can't see it. It's like she is blind. Blind and crazy. I don't get it.

nate@twitter

I can't get angry about this. She was born during the Coolidge Administration and this reads like senility, not an actual opinion.

I AM DIAPHENA

@nate@twitter Naw, there are plenty of 87-year-olds who are not straight-up douchebags.

olivebee

@nate@twitter @I AM DIAPHENA Yeah, I am wary of the "well, he/she is old and they grew up with different beliefs" argument, because I have read about (and know) several VERY OLD liberals who would find any anti-women, anti-gay, anti-whatever sentiments horrible and small-minded.

beecaveroad

@I AM DIAPHENA True story. My great-aunt who is about 80 and lives in Georgia likes all my angry facebook posts about Republicans. There is hope!

olivebee

@olivebee I should add, I am also wary of that argument because, in general, I don't find age, economic class, location, or anything else a solid excuse for attacking any group of people. It's one thing to have your belief system, and quite another to deny others the right to theirs.

nate@twitter

@olivebee I'm not saying she's off the hook because old, this actually reads like senility. I mean she was horrible when she was young and is horrible now, I'm not talking about her age as such, this just reads like someone who's lost the plot.

Judith Slutler

Leave Bella Abzug ALONE

beanie

@Emmanuelle Cunt what a wonderfully classy lady, making fun of someone who has been dead for a decade.

phipsi

@Emmanuelle Cunt I think she's super cute! WTF!!

noodge

my (communist lesbian) mother had a t-shirt made soon after i was born - a white fitted T with the letters SPBPSU in a collegiate font across her chest. apparently it stood for "sisterhood to plant a bomb in phyllis shlafley's underpants".

Judith Slutler

@teenie I love all stories about your communist lesbian mother, seriously

LabRat

@teenie I would buy one of those.

noodge

@LabRat maybe we could cafe press some? hmmmmm....

wallsdonotfall

@teenie Could you please ask your mother if she would mind some new members in the sisterhood?

EpWs

@teenie Your mother is the best, seriously, and now has her own fanclub: The SOHCWLTCLM.

LabRat

@teenie I have a print/silkscreen shop in my basement, I can totally handle the production arm of this endeavor.

noodge

@The Everpresent Wordsnatcher hahaha - sisterhood of hairpin commenters who love teenie's communist lesbian mother?!?! awesome!!!

@labrat: this has definite potential...

EpWs

@teenie Yesssssss

LabRat

@teenie Maybe a Che-style stencil of Abzug with "SPBPSU" underneath?

noodge

@LabRat amazing! we could have a variety of feminists - make a series of them?

stonefruit

@teenie ... is she single?

@LabRat I WANT ONE I WANT ONE!

noodge

@stonefruit she is very happily single :-)

LabRat

@stonefruit I'm thinking maybe this image.

Lauren_O'Neal

"[F]eminist is a bad word and everything they stand for is bad."

Why does this sound like a line from Parks & Rec?

Lucienne

@Lauren_O'Neal She got that tunnel vision that girls get.

olivebee

@Lauren_O'Neal It would come from that one scary fundamentalist lady who opposed the gay penguin marriage and the Diaphena painting of Leslie.

cherrispryte

Anyone else read that the second time as Fleminist? Like, people who are pro-penicillin, or similar?

Also, obviously, SMDH Shlafly.

iceberg

@cherrispryte I think you mean STFU Schlafly? or is that just me.

honeybunchesofoats

Amazing accompanying picture, Edith.

leonstj

Haha I was thinking last night (hi again NYC hairpin everyone, it was wonderful seeing you and omg beer bread so great) it is really weird that their is like, "feminist" as a word standing opposed to "misogyny ", but then like, what is the ______ as a word standing opposed to "racism"?

Oh, we don't even have one, because obviously racism is fucking awful and one should not be racist. It's wack that feminism is even a thing people identify as, it should just be like "Oh, obviously everyone is a feminist", except for the douchebags, and we'll just call them out separately.

Cat named Virtute

@leon.saintjean I think there are in fact several words/phrases for standing in opposition to racism, they are just less mainstream because a lot of people think that now that segregation's over, everything's peachy keen.

I've been listening to a lot of episodes of This American Life from the late nineties, when they did a lot of episodes about racial issues, and boy howdy is there a crap load of casual racism flapping about.

Ellie

@leon.saintjean I think people say "anti-racist," which just doesn't sound right to me. I agree it's depressing that we have to have words for these things.

But, I also find it slightly problematic, because I think that it sort of implies that just sort of normally thinking that misogyny and racism are bad isn't good enough, you have to SELF-IDENTIFY with that belief, and that feminism and anti-racism are these hallowed societies that you have to be super thoughtful to enter. I also think that it sets "feminists" and "antiracists" apart from other people and sort of contributes to the negative and often misguided perception that these are strident, elitist, "not normal" groups. I really don't know.

dj pomegranate

At the NYC pinup last night there many feminists who were, in fact, quite likable! Phyl needs to work on her sample size determination.

hopelessshade

@dj pomegranate I find that statistically the most unlikable people are the ones who aren't feminists. But then again, I'm a walking uterus who wants equal rights, so hey, maybe I'm biased.

HMSBeagle

I just googled Bella Abzug.

1. Not ugly.
2. I love all of her hats.

Judith Slutler

@heliotropegerbil8 Bella Abzug was a badass! I did a report on her in middle school and discovered that my mom owns one of her campaign T-shirts. When she first ran for Congress, her slogan was "Women belong in the House", and then she updated it to "Women belong in the House... and the Senate" for her Senate run.

Oh, squiggles

@Emmanuelle Cunt Those are bitchin' slogans.

Judith Slutler

@Awesomely Nonfunctional My mom wouldn't give me her "Women belong in the House... and the Senate" T-shirt, which made me pretty mad, but to be honest I probably would've worn it till it fell apart...

HMSBeagle

@Emmanuelle Cunt I definitely just googled those t-shirts, too. So awesome! None on ebay, though zazzle sells an inferior version.

roadtrips

@heliotropegerbil8 Yes, totally! She looks like someone who I would want to be my mentor/life coach. Phyllis Schafly, on the other hand... you couldn't pay me to take her advice.

stonefruit

@Emmanuelle Cunt I used to have a mug that said that!

Hot Doom

Schlafly. Jackasschlafly, more like.

Edabelle

And another thing! I was just struck by the horror of the phrase "a wolf in sheep's clothing." Because it's really not "clothing," is it?

leastimportantperson

@LDB Wolf in sheep's adorable ensemble.

Edabelle

@leastimportantperson Jordan Catalano in that shearling coat: wolf in sheep's clothing.

leastimportantperson

@LDB This. Is. Perfect.

TheBelleWitch

It must stick in Phyllis Schlafly's craw that after all her hard work defeating the ERA, gay marriage is becoming more and more accepted anyway. Warms my heart just thinking about it.

needsmoresalt

She's horrible, but this comment on the story made me laugh:
"Yes well this is just way over the top. feminists are really fun people. they like to party and have a good time just like anyone else. they normally are not the (well here goes) best looking gals at the bar. so if they have adequate protection shall we say, their stats go way up in the relationship department. then after that they can get recruited over at the beach co. feminists hate the army, navy, usmc, the citadel cadets, military people of any stripe.

"plus these ladies will not chase you after the sale. they are above all that and frankly that makes it better than having to explain about beer goggles, wolf women, and all that stuff guys really only like to talk about amoungst themselves."
I'm sure that guy would be TERRIFYING to encounter in real life, though.

aphrabean

@needsmoresalt What's most interesting about dudes like that is how vehemently they'll deny how much disdain, fear & rage they have towards women. So much! It's just right there on the surface! You don't even have to look hard! Remarkable.

BoozinSusan

@aphrabean What is "Chase you after the sale?" Does that mean still pursue you after you've had sex? Um.

aphrabean

@BoozinSusan I believe that is the intended meaning! Because ALL sex is transactional! What a gem. I wish dudes like this were rarities.

NeenerNeener

@BoozinSusan I got the chase you after the sale part. I'm still working on how stats go way up in the relationship department with adequate protection. And I also don't know who/what the beach company(?) is and whether it has something to do with the military.

needsmoresalt

@NeenerNeener I am deeply confused about beach company, too. But I LOVE the idea of going around to guys at a bar and being like, "Look, I'm no Angelina Jolie. Not only am I not as attractive as she is, I have no interest in having kids! Look at all this birth control I've got in my purse! And I also ran by the pharmacy and picked up this Plan B, to, you know, REALLY CLOSE THE SALE HERE! Let's go back to my place and have tons of unprotected sex! And don't worry about calling me later: I'm a feminist!" It's enough to make me wish I were single, so I could try that pick-up technique out.

Jolie Kerr

When did Phyllis Schlafly start writing for n+1???

cuminafterall

Would students at The Citadel even know who Bella Abzug is? Do they have a special class on New York Jewish Liberals to Watch Out For?

Oh, squiggles

@cuminafterall They do, and it is constantly waitlisted.

sudden_eyes

@cuminafterall This is EXACTLY what I was about to post! I can easily imagine all those kids muttering to each other, "Bella Azbug?" And then trying to Google her but not being able to spell her name.

MoxyCrimeFighter

@cuminafterall Ha, I am a Young One, and I mostly know who she is from reading Bloom County cartoons and Dave Barry's books.

Lemonnier

@MoxyCrimeFighter Me too! Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that my political outlook had a lot to do with reading Bloom County as a kid.

roadtrips

@Lemonnier Thirded! I remember reading a panel about the cola wars and feeling really politically engaged (I was a Pepsi).

Lemonnier

@roadtrips Also, my parents couldn't understand why I was asking them about Caspar Weinberger, Sandinistas and Golda Meir.

sovereignann@twitter

@EVERYONE Bloom County--OMG this was my comic as was Calvin and Hobbs (before he peed on everything!) There was the whole series on journalism that I LOVED but yes, the Caspar Weinberger poem:
The wind doth taste of bittersweet / Like jasper wine and sugar / It no longer blows through others' feet / like those of Caspar Weinberger.
Apparently Mr. Weinberger had it framed on his desk at one point.
Also: ACK!

dracula's ghost

@sovereignann@twitter I WAS SUCH A HUGE BLOOM COUNTY FAN. It's so true that kids who read BC were politically shaped in really weird ways. I remember obsessively reciting the lyrics to "Leper Lover" to my friends, none of whom found them funny:

Leper lover, creature of the dark
drip your disease, leave your mark
through the gutter, slime and stinky
george bush is a twinkie

sovereignann@twitter

@dracula's ghost AH! That's the best! Also, Ted Kopple is a waffle. I can't remember what it was that he was trying to rhyme but OMG Bloom County foreveah!!!!!

sovereignann@twitter

Here is what KILLS me about this whole "Feminists are bad" argument. This woman is a CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER. How do you get those kinds of jobs? Well, because women before you (and during your lifetime) fought for those rights. Do you get to keep your own money? Do you get to own property? Did you get to choose what your husband knew about your medical records? Do you get to choose whether you work outside the home? These are NOT things women have always been able to do. The fact that after your husband died and you were able to live on your own and not have to move in with a family member means that YOU have taken advantage of the sacrifices women have made. Do you vote, my dear? I'm guessing that since you believe that you can tell others how to live their lives, you do. How did you get that right? Oh yes, women who sacrificed their bodies and reputations and lives gave you that right. Heck even the fact that you are able to be heard and are not believed to be damaged because you read books and have opinions means you have taken advantage of feminism. You, madam are a product of feminism whether you like it or not.
So many other things to say but totally wrapped up in irritation right now...ugh!

MoxyCrimeFighter

@sovereignann@twitter Twinsies! Literally just posted the same thing. She is the WORST.

Cat named Virtute

@sovereignann@twitter You know, it's pretty amazing how many (privileged comfortable usually white) ladies think that all that stuff is well and dandy, and their lives are going okay, so we just... don't need feminism anymore. Like it became irrelevant with the Pill or something. I have a group of ladyfriends who felt very much this way throughout high school and early undergrad (I think they've mellowed now, though I still don't think they're paragons of feminism). Never mind rape and domestic violence and sex workers' rights and the fact that we're STILL not making as much money as men. It's amazing what people will just assume is the natural order of things.

sovereignann@twitter

@MoxyCrimeFighter Twins! But yours is a reasoned and even response where as my emotions took over. I'm still just amazed when feminism is looked at this way as if all feminists want to do is emasculate men or to take over the male population. I've lived with men, I do not want to be a man.
@Marika Pea@twitter I am still surprised that we continue to have the argument about feminism. I think we just need a new word or something. I mean, good lord, up until sometime in the 1970s if you wanted to report a rape, you had to have a witness because it was thought that most women were just trying to bring down the man or sully his reputation. That alone is worth the price of admission for feminism.

datalass

@sovereignann@twitter I've had a lot of occasion to ruminate on this because someone I know well is cut from the Schlafly mold and, in fact, was at one time acquainted with Schlafly in the flesh.

My theory is, that for a certain type of woman, the pre-feminist era was pretty sweet. By "certain type" I mean 1) affluent (or at least well-provided for), 2) white, 3) conventionally feminine, and 4) able to charm men. The woman I mentioned above fits these criteria as do a number of successful conservative women of a certain age. Margaret Thatcher, I think, is one. As is Elizabeth Dole. These are women who made a comfortable niche for themselves (and largely only themselves) in a world of men.

The thing is that, for these women, expanded opportunities for ALL women would be a net loss. They'd risk losing their own little perch.

MoxyCrimeFighter

@sovereignann@twitter Ha! I was thinking your comment was phrased much more poetically than mine and was all the more effective for it. <3 the Hairpin sisterhood of positive reinforcement.

staircases

@sovereignann@twitter Agreed. There's a special place in hell for women that do this to other women.

sovereignann@twitter

@datalass You know, that's an interesting view and it makes a lot of sense. It always makes me a little sad too when women work against other women. During the 2008 election season a friend of mine and I were talking about whether we would have a black president or a female president first and he was firmly on the side of a female president would happen first. My argument was that no matter the female, there would be a large contingent of women who would work against it because we can be so awful to each other. Which I know is a horrible rationalization but let's say Palin (only because Hillary already came with so much baggage from when Bill was president and Palin was so weirdly popular) was actually educated and articulate so that the argument wasn't about that, there would be plenty of women (and men) who would not want to vote for her because she's too much of a (enter derogatory word here) which is why I like The Hairpin so much. We are all very nice to each other even when we disagree.

dracula's ghost

@sovereignann@twitter Tina Fey writes about this in Bossypants, about how she got all this hate mail for being "mean" to Sarah Palin (with her impression of Palin). Fey writes this badass feminist screed about this, about how anti-feminist it is to think a woman (Palin) can't hold her own in the bare-knuckles world of politics, AND about how anti-feminist it is to think a woman's impression is "mean" while SNL has had literally billions of male impressions and nobody ever criticizes them for being "too mean." Like, Chevy Chase played Gerald Ford as just constantly falling down and falling over furniture. So fucking mean! But nobody called it that, because they are two men and men can take care of themselves. Fey closes this chapter with some line like "Sarah Palin is not fragile, and I am not mean," which I was really into

dj pomegranate

@sovereignann@twitter I definitely heard/read women of the conservative Christian persuasion urging other women not to vote McCain/Palin because it was un-Biblical/un-Godly/outside of God's Natural Order for the Family for a woman to have that much responsibility outside the home. Usually mixed up in that mess of an argument was that if she's actually a Godly woman, she's submitting to Todd (THE MAN/HER HUSBAND) and therefore, we are really electing Todd as VP. Another wonderful nuance of this argument was, "Ladies, do you really want your husband submitting to a woman? Because that's what will happen if you vote for a woman president."

All this to say: Yeah. Women can be awful to each other. Also, people really, really do not understand separation of church and state.

Ellie

I have to say that I don't like considering myself a feminist and it really bothers me when other people apply this label to me based on the fact that I don't feel that I have suffered disadvantages in my life due to my gender. I don't think of myself as opposed to feminism, and I am concerned with issues of social and political equality for women (as well as other groups). But I resent having a label describing social or political beliefs applied to me that I didn't choose for myself. I used to be more vehement about this and got into a lot of arguments about feminism. I've since come around a bit (older, more mature) and the label doesn't rankle at all, I just prefer not to describe myself that way and wouldn't like others to, either. But I guess I don't have that problem anymore because it mostly happened in the context of arguments about feminism which I don't really get into anymore. But, I still don't like the narrative that everyone who isn't actively engaged in feminist struggle is in denial about her own privilege or is "anti-woman."

needsmoresalt

@sovereignann@twitter That Phyllis Schlafly and Sarah Palin are "products" of feminism is actually my favorite thing about them. I do think it's of the utmost importance to protect women's access to healthcare, education, etc., and to make sure that violence against women is taken seriously. But I like to think of Schlafly, Palin et al as "personal feminists," because I think their ambition (more so someone like Schlafly) and drive does show that women can get things done, even if they're not good things. And I know that making that argument is sort of like making the argument that a female serial killer is good for feminism because it demonstrates that women can be violent psychopaths, too! Oh, well.

sovereignann@twitter

@Ellie This is why I think we need a new word. I don't go around thinking of myself as a feminist and I'm not part of a feminist struggle until something comes up that really rankles me and still it usually ends at me posting something in a comments section. But I think what gets me is not that women aren't thinking like me or struggling to fix things but that women will turn around and decide that feminism is bad because they think of feminists as anti-feminine when that isn't the case, in my mind anyway. If I were married and had kids, I would like to stay home but if I happened to be the breadwinner and my husband and I could afford it, he could stay home. I think that is what feminism is to me: choice and the acceptance of that choice or your choice or anyone's choice and we have the ability to make that choice because of feminism, even if people don't look at it that way. Like any other movement, it is the extremists that get the attention so I think in a lot of people's minds a feminist is a woman who is pissed off at men who wants to strip away everything and spell women womyn. I think to me, in all honesty, that Phyllis isn’t anti-woman but is someone who has had benefited from the strides women have made but then doesn’t accept the choices other women make to achieve their goals because they didn’t do it her way. Kind of like Bill Kristol talking about how Obama is part of the overly educated elite when he himself holds multiple Ivy League degrees.

sovereignann@twitter

@needsmoresalt I totally understand what you are saying. They are products of feminism in that everyone should be allowed to stand up and be heard and make their own choices and be idiots or be brilliant but also be able to take the criticism that comes with all that, which is what dracula's ghost was referencing up there when talking about Tina Fey.

sovereignann@twitter

@dj pomegranate Oh lord! The Christian right is a whole other kettle of fish. I live in Texas and long, long, long for the time when we used believe you just didn't talk about religion. And when outsiders try and figure out how you can't dissuade or even have a conversation with them, it's because they don't realize that to an evangelical, God is speaking to you directly and that God put you in this position to make these decisions. How are you going to argue with that? Then the natural extension of the whole Quiver Full movement is creepy with the patriarchal hierarchy. I am a firm believer that your religion is your religion and it is personal and so is mine so please keep yours out of mine. Separation of church and state!!!

MoxyCrimeFighter

I did read somewhere (Slate, maybe?) that polls are showing that women voters, in general, are less concerned about contraception and reproductive rights than things like the economy etc. Which doesn't really prove her point, though, because it's not that women don't care, it's just that they, like most male voters, aren't making it their pet issue - most likely because their employer isn't revoking their BC coverage out from under them. I don't buy that women are super-concerned about religious liberty, either, except for the ones who are basically the conservative side of the BC debate.

Fuck her for saying the discussion over BC coverage isn't about access, though, "just" who's going to pay for it. Technically, I am ALLOWED to go to Paris but I sure as shit don't have the money to, so my ACCESS is severely restricted. Religious organizations know they don't have a legal leg to stand on by telling their employees that they aren't allowed to use birth control (hi, Arizona, I know you're trying really hard to change that!) so they dump the burden of cost on their employees to make it difficult to get their sinful hands on it.

Not to mention, bashing feminists? Lady, you have a degree from Radcliffe, a law degree from Washington University, and you worked in a ballistics factory during WWII - how does she think ANY of that would have been possible without feminists? For someone who is so anti-feminist, she's made a pretty good career out of trying to deny women the same opportunities she's taken advantage of.

Rock and Roll Ken Doll

@MoxyCrimeFighter
Sometimes I wonder with folks like this (another, perhaps even clearer example would be Anne Coulter) if they're just laughing all the way to the bank. I mean, if you're a person motivated by cynical self-interest, once you've got a shtick and a fan base, why would you turn down honoraria?

MoxyCrimeFighter

@josiah Yeah, I mean, I'd like to think that people like that (conservative and liberals alike) aren't really as out there and histrionic as they come across, because it's just crazy-making that they would even exist - but I don't know if it's really any better that they have so little consideration for the power of their words, other than as a tool for financial gain, and so much disdain for the intelligence of their audience, that they would spout such ludicrous philosophies not only as opinion but as truth.

Lemonnier

If it weren't for feminists, she never would have gotten a law degree. So I guess it's okay for her to reap the benefits of feminism, while fighting it.

Edit: What Moxy said.

HydrogenJukebox

You're all invited to the Pinko Lesbian Safe-Sex Orgy I'm going to throw in celebration of when she finally shuffles off this mortal coil.

MoxyCrimeFighter

@HydrogenJukebox Maybe we should have it early, send her pictures, and hope it pushes her over the edge?

Not because I'm just tryin' to get some pinko lady-love, nooo...it's for the good of the world!

redonion

I am now especially motivated to go out and volunteer with young people.

Also, this really makes me sad for the women who have chosen to go to the Citadel. I mean they fought to get there and in addition to dealing with all the shit they probably deal with on a regular basis, they now have to contend with guys who take dating advice from Phyllis Schlafly.

MoxyCrimeFighter

@redonion Yeah, nothing like being a woman outnumbered 20 to 1 by men who are getting advice from a woman who denies the existence of marital rape.

lp
lp

@MoxyCrimeFighter Does anyone remember when the Citadel was in the news because some upperclassmen had splashed nail polish remover on a female cadet's clothing and literally SET HER ON FIRE?
I THINK THEY HAVE IT COVERED, PHYLLIS.
/rage

Marzipan

Last night this guy I was hmmm hanging out with was like, "I don't get feminism." my reaction was basically just "ohhh nooooooooooooooooo."

So, I was all, "Oh, I don't know, equality, maybe?" but because I am awful and timid it almost definitely came out more all genuinely unsure, more like "uhhhh, I... don't know? Equality? maybe???" Ugh sorry feminism! I <3 you. next time I'll do better, just, I was not prepared for people questioning the awesomeness of feminism because it JUST IS, OBVIOUSLY, DAMMIT.

Kate M.D.

@Marzipan I have this problem a lot with my bigoted, hyper-religious, backwater family members. They say things that are so far off the deep end that they're in the goddamn Mariana Trench, and I'm just like, "Um? Oh. But... equality?" because I'm totally unprepared to parry that kind of extreme insanity. And also because "Go die in a righteous Hairpin Cleansing Fire" is not an appropriate thing to say over Thanksgiving dinner.

iceberg

@Marzipan Honey you did the best you could I am sure, like, what does that even mean, I don't "get" feminism? It's: women are humans that deserve to be treated as though they have the same value as men, because we do (have the same value as men), and historically we haven't been treated that way so there is a lil catching up to do, also we sometimes have certain different needs than men, which are not of less value or importance than mens needs. How is that something to "get"?

NeenerNeener

@iceberg See, I think the best answer to his comment would have been what you just said, minus that last sentence. I think when someone says that they don't get something, it usually means that they are open to receiving more information/understanding on the topic. I don't know this guy's views, or what exactly he meant, but he may not even be familiar with the definition that you gave due to messages from people like Ms. Schlafly.

Rachel Palmer@facebook

@Marzipan It's hard when you get used to higher-level discourse about important, complex issues & then encounter a person who is so far behind in terms of an educated opinion that you don't even know where to begin talking to them about anything. I once had a coworker tell me "I'm not a feminist because I think guys get bashed on too." When somebody says something to you from that far out of left field, it's almost impossible to wrap your head around it and come up with a concise yet comprehensive reply in enough time to maintain the flow of conversation.

iceberg

@NeenerNeener Good point! I guess it just seems like Being a Human to me to understand that concept?

NeenerNeener

@iceberg You'd think! But I find that so many people have been influenced by the negative perceptions of feminism and have never heard it explained in terms of equality. It's also easy for me to understand someone not "getting it" once they hear it framed as about equality and not something to do with male-bashing, because I don't get it, I don't get all the hate, or how people can spin it in the other direction and call it a "bad word." Well, I kind of do, but that's taken a long time and I still have trouble really getting people's individual motivations and how they contribute to the goals of the system/patriarchy.

datalass

@Rachel Palmer@facebook Exactly. I was ROUTINELY confounded by the arguments presented by my Rush Limbaugh-listening coworker for exactly this reason.

Kate M.D.

@Rachel Palmer@facebook
@NeenerNeener Excellent points. Definitely on a different level than my hateful redneck fam. It becomes really hard to hold the ignorant (in the most innocent, naive sense) people accountable for what they just don't understand because, after all, I think a lot of us had to be introduced to most concepts of social justice. I know I did (see: redneck family), so how can I hold it against someone if they just haven't encountered people in their lives who will push them in that direction?

So then one wonders: when/where is it appropriate to try to educate people a little? I tend to get, um, ranty in inappropriate places. I will launch into a monologue on Topic X and some friends will be like, we've heard this lecture before, can we put on Topic Y instead? So I try not to get pushy/arrogant with the "I MUST ILLUMINATE YOU ON THE TRUTHS OF THE UNIVERSE," but sometimes it just hurts not to at least try to push people in the right direction if it seems like they are just genuinely in the dark. (This is why I feel an extreme amount of sympathy towards the Mormons & JWs who knock on my door to try to save my soul)

I try real hard not to be arrogant about my own opinions, I swear, but stuff like "all humans are equal regardless of mommy/daddy buttons or lack thereof" doesn't have a lot of room for interpretation, so I get a little fired up and want to spread that gospel, praise the lord!

Marzipan

@iceberg Yeah, I have a small amount of tolerance for this breed of people, which I characterize by their unexamined ignorance. They include those people who "don't see color" or "don't think racism is a problem anymore". They are ignorant privileged jackasses who don't get how something could be a problem if it isn't a problem for THEM, but usually they are trying. Wrong, but trying.

@datalass Exactly! Where do you even start? In the bullying thread, someone wanted to go back in time and just hand kids a list of sick burns you can say when they say this to you, and wish them good luck. That is what I want, only for me, and saying the exact right sick righteous speech that brings wisdom to the ignorant.

Especially with the talk radio ‘Dittoheads’ (how can they embrace this name for themselves? That kind of complete lack of self-awareness is astonishing.) or other form of the aggressively confidently ignorant person, I can’t even. It’s like: I have no starting point for a discussion with you. How can we have a discussion when I probably couldn’t get your buy-in on gravity, or evolution, or global warming? What could I possible say to someone who won’t accept the basic tenants, like say humanity, decency, compassion, equality, on which I intend to base my arguments?

NeenerNeener

@Kate M.D. It's not easy, and I am certainly not the best at remaining calm and patient in the face of such conversations. Not getting to the point of condescension might help my cause more, but I think only slightly.

dracula's ghost

I hope everyone knows about the counter-protest movement of the 80s aimed directly at Schlafly, that was called:

LADIES AGAINST WOMEN

they'd dress up in fur coats and pillbox hats and hand out cookies at political events and just yell the most INSANE satirical shit. I love it so much. Ladies Against Women!!

http://bitchmagazine.org/tag/ladies-against-women

datalass

@dracula's ghost I didn't! Thank you. This is a trifecta of things I love: pillbox hats, cookies, and insane satirical shit.

MoxyCrimeFighter

@datalass I just looked that up but found this, too, and now I am bummed out again.

MoxyCrimeFighter

@MoxyCrimeFighter Ahhh, link fail! This is what I meant to post: http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/

It is...baffling and depressing.

phipsi

@MoxyCrimeFighter Oh man, I found that site several years ago, and it's just bizarro world.

BoozinSusan

I remember when she came to visit my college in 2005. During question time, a gay male student in the back of the audience stood up and said, "You don't seem to have any room in your agenda and philosophy for anyone who's not straight. What do you have to say to this population?"
She answered, "I have nothing to say except that I feel sorry for you."
Turns out one of her sons is gay, and they haven't spoken in 15 years. What a beacon of light she is!

Airbuddy

@BoozinSusan Are you confusing the Schlaflys with the Socarides? Because as of 2009 it looks like her gay son works for her crazy crazy Eagle Forum and Phyllis is calling the policy shots for him: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1889757,00.html

It's a little low to be leveraging this attack on her, but oh geez is her family a piece of work. Another of her sons started Conservapedia in response to the "liberal bias of Wikipedia," and it basically reads like if Wikipedia and Christwire had an unfunny baby. He is also a frightening robot goon of a man:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/258144/december-08-2009/andy-schlafly

area@twitter

You know, Phyllis Schafly was one of those people I kind of laughed about? Like, "oh, she was a nasty person back in the 70s and 80s, what a funny outmoded mindset". Yeah. Not laughing anymore.
Fortunately everyone here has already made incredible points, I just want to add my log of hate to the ragefire. agghhh how can you be so HORRIBLE

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