We all remember LW2, right? She needs to dump this guy, and we all know it. We know it instinctively, because she's unhappy, and she's not us. When it's us, we seem to operate under some kind of lame delusion that a) we've invested something priceless in our relationship, and b) it could get better.
What have you invested, exactly, that's worth risking another, what, two years, before the thing eventually dies on its own? Which it invariably will?
It's not going to get better. We all know a couple who had a terrible relationship that eventually got better, but it's almost certainly the same couple, and they just talk about it constantly to reassure themselves that it actually got better.
This is not a "gurl, he doesn't get how awesome you are" manifesto.
Sometimes your relationship sucks because you're awesome, and your partner is awful.
Sometimes your relationship sucks because you're awful, and your partner is awesome.
Sometimes your relationships sucks because you're both awful, and not in a synergy-creating way.*
Sometimes your relationship is great because you're both awesome. Like Jon Hamm and Jennifer Westfeldt.
Sometimes your relationship is great because you're both awful in companionable ways. Like Todd and Margo, from National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.
(*Honestly, this would describe at least 40% of my bad relationships. I'm kind of awful. Nor have I ever once taken my own, excellent advice. It's all Edward Albee, all the time, for the last six months each time.)
One year, two year relationships are not that much work, or, at least, they shouldn't be. Thirty year marriages seem to be hard work, based on the grim expressions. Look, if you're not stranded on a desert island with one other person, and you find that your relationship is a stressor in your life, just end it. You'll find someone else, and, if you don't, ever, at least you're not in a terrible relationship. When you genuinely enjoy someone and feel like, to quote my best friend's grandmother, they are a radiator and not a drain, it's the place you go to to escape your terrible job, or your aggravating family. It's supposed to be your home.
And, word of advice for the next one? Just be exactly like yourself all the time. Don't pretend to like the stupid things they like, because you think you should be the sort of person who likes opera. Or hiking. If what you genuinely, truly love is watching The Voice while drinking cranberry juice out of your wineglasses, put that in your goddamn ad, because SOMEONE is going to see that, and think "oh, finally."
Finally, if you are with someone who is a dick to you, or who seems not to like you, please think to yourself: if I was in a cab being driven by this individual, I would get out, even if no one else would take me to Brooklyn. The rest of us like you just fine.
"And, word of advice for the next one? Just be exactly like yourself all the time. Don't pretend to like the stupid shit they like, because you think you should be the sort of person who likes opera. Or hiking. If what you genuinely, truly love is watching The Voice while drinking cranberry juice out of your wineglasses, put that in your goddamn ad, because SOMEONE is going to see that, and think 'oh, finally.'"
Thanks for this. I need to be reminded of this sometimes when I struggle to see myself as "interesting enough" for dudes.
@Elleohelle YES TO THAT PARAGRAPH.
@Elleohelle Yes, god, this is so helpful as I prepare to embark on an "on to the next one!" phase.
@Elleohelle I almost choked up when I read that paragraph.
@Elleohelle WORD. I did not get my current partner by posting a personal ad saying "My ideal evening is that you would make me fajitas, and then we would drink beer and watch a lot of Buffy, and then we would have sex, and then we would go to bed," but I TOTALLY COULD HAVE.
@femme cassidy I think we need a whole series of honest personal ads. "I enjoy eating the whole bag of Baby Bel, no we can't share, but you'll need to finish my second mason jar of wine for me pretty much without fail."
@Elleohelle Yes x100, beautiful. Also, side note, I love watching The Voice and I LOVE juice -- so suggesting that I elegantly combine the two just changed my life.
@Elleohelle Oh, that paragraph has kind of made me teary at work. I can't tell if it's because I'm having a rough week, or because of my deep-seated Online Dating Issues.
(Also hello! I'm new!)
@Roaring Girl If I were to write one now it would say, "I really enjoy ridiculous sports like Ultimate Frisbee, and I pick my beers based on how funny the name is. Often, if there aren't funny named heers on the beer list, I will make you pick one for me. If you don't catch my Joss Whedon references, I will possibly dump you. Everything tastes better in a wine glass, and also I will get all butthurt over random stuff once in a while and it'll come out of nowhere and I will be sad about it for days."
@JanieS Hi!
@JanieS Hi! For me, it's both of those things combined. Everyone on online dating sites is busy trying to get into peoples' pants by talking about how much they love reading Dostoevsky in their free time. But dammit, if I want to lay in bed watching Mad Men on my laptop eating bagfuls of Caramel Coated Bugles (have you guys tried them? They're delicious) while intermittently playing Bejeweled on my phone, then I WILL AND YOU SHOULD LIKE ME IN SPITE OF THIS. (Or because of this!)
@Elleohelle Definitely because. 100%. I pretty much need to be able to put on a movie and then decide to leave and let it running, so I know what you're about here!
Side note, where are the folks who want to be dating kids* who think a fun time is laughing until their everything hurts in part because they are rolling on the kitchen floor too and standing up just isn't going to possible right now, thank you. maybe a nap?
*note that by kids i mean young 20somethings by which i mean 22 year old me.
@Elleohelle Yes, to everything but hell, yes! to Carmamel Coated Bugles. They are not allowed in my house unless I decide that eating the entire bag in one sitting will not make me feel tooooo bad!
@bibliostitute you have the greatest username!
@Elleohelle and everyone else: everything everyone has said in this thread is a thing that I would find awesome if I saw it on a dating profile. I might not actually write, because I won't get the Joss Whedon references and phones in bed is a no for me and seriously, you just leave the movie running?! I twitch just reading that...But I would definitely decide that you're pretty cool.
@Nicole: "If you find that your relationship is a stressor in your life, just end it." It took me too long to take that advice but I did and it turns out it's the best advice ever.
@sevanetta Thank you! I got it from the commentariat, a while back on the holiday gift take-back post/thread!
@Al Cracka I mostly a) would never write that in a dating profile because, WHAT? I leave movies on in my house while I go and clean the bathroom? That's not even a thing, until it maybe becomes a thing? I just get bored watching movies at home, because they aren't big enough. I said it.
@Elleohelle btw I seriously read Dostoevsky in my spare time. What? Someone's gotta do it.
@Elleohelle I did a little mini-clap at my desk when I read that.
Well said, slow-clap. I decided a long time ago that I would rather be alone than with the wrong person/people, because I'm awesome and EXCELLENT company.
Glad you wrote this.
Or like Todd and Margo when she came to Sweet Valley preparing to kill Elizabeth and take over her life and Todd didn't realize it was Elizabeth and that's when Elizabeth found out that Jessica got her drunk on purpose at the Jungle Dance, like that Todd and Margo too.
@melis Sometimes your relationship is awful because cocaine aggravates your heart condition and you die. Or because you're going with Bruce Patman.
Sometimes your relationship is awful because you thought you were a perfect size six, and then it turns out you're supposed to be a perfect size four.
@Nicole Cliffe I thought they were perfect size 8s, and then I discovered they were 6s.
@SarahP How did my comment end up before other comments that were posted earlier?!
@melis I would have to include in my personal ad that I only understood THIS Todd and Margo reference and not the original one in the post. Someone will read it and want to be a radiator with me!
Sometimes your relationship is awful because your boyfriend Christian drowned during that rumble with Palisade High and they won't let you take him to the movies anymore.
"Jesus, Jessica, you can't...you can't take him in with you like that. Please just let them bury him. It's been a month. His parents are literally insane with grief."
"I wouldn't expect you to understand our relationship, Enid."
@melis Sometimes your relationship is awful because no one in it knows how to pronounce "lavaliere" correctly for an embarrassingly long time.
Like all problems, solved by rewatching "Annie."
@melis oh my god, THIS. christian! chriiiistian! i forgot all about this poignant moment in sv history. also, for anyone who hasn't yet, i highly recommend a trip (or, more accurately, the internet black hole free fall) down wikipedia's sweet valley high characters list.
@melis OH MY GOD THE THIRD TWIN. I read that book so many times!
@Iggles McFearson SO many times!! Also the genealogy series, that took you back all the way to the 17th-century sires of Lila/Bruce/twins/etc!! I still have those and I am NOT ashamed.
*standing ovation*
I'd just add: ask yourself, is this really worth it, right now? And then be honest.
When I read the word "wineglasses" the first thing I imagined was like a beer hat, but on your eyes and with wine. Can I have some?
@Miranda Loeber@facebook Like these babies? http://www.restorationhardware.com/catalog/product/product.jsp?type=finalSale&productId=prod1531096
@mbeth hahaha holy shit, I need those!
@Miranda Loeber@facebook @mbth @slizzii I just ordere two pairs for myself and friend. Best $8 I've ever spent.
@Miranda Loeber@facebook Wine glasses are like beer goggles but different in some special way? They make people look more cultured?
@mbeth Yes!!!! I just ordered three pairs!!!! Whoo drunk shopping! (And I'll be drunker when they get here).
@mbeth My daughter has those- you have to hold them on your face while you're drinking. Otherwise they work.
@Miranda Loeber@facebook The wine would have to fill up the lenses, that way you could look at the world through rosé colored glasses.
We should start a PSA movement called "It Gets Worse!" to save people from wasting away in failing relationships. :/ Videos are encouraged.
@melmuu I LOVE THIS
@melmuu
I think my last long-term relationship served as a PSA for several of my friends, so I should probably sign up for this.
@melmuu One video would be that clip from "Love, Actually" with the necklace.
Everything changed for me when I started telling guys, "What you see is what you get." I wouldn't even dress up for first dates anymore. I figured he ought to see what I look like every day, and then I'd dress up once I decided I liked the guy. Why waste time? And then, being able to tell a guy, "So, you don't like me? Well, there's the door," or, "You sound like you might like to shop around a bit and see if you might like someone better than me. You have my blessing. Would you like a letter of recommendation?" is a freakin' amazing magic trick. The best part is meaning it. Ah, the freedom.
@carolita Did anyone take you up on the letter of recommendation offer? Because I would date a guy that came with a letter of rec from you.
@carolita "I gotta tell you like my dog told me. When you meet a chick, you gotsta straight slap her."
Everything changed for me when I started telling guys, "The inside of my sinuses are literally covered in dead locust shells." I wouldn't even speak a human language on first dates anymore. I figured it was time for them to follow me into the screaming clam heart that lies at the center of the universe, and then I'd use my mouth to make sounds once I decided he wasn't sent to assassinate my ur. Why waste manuscripts? And then, being able to tell a guy, "So, you're made of blood? I'm growing inside of your walls," or, "You sound like you might be the sound from a nightmare and I'm going to consume your essence" is a trick of both time and flurgh. The best part is the locusts, and a river runs through it.
oh my god why am i like this
@melis
Don't question it, just let us all enjoy you.
@melis I'm pregnant with a kitty-cat. Those are my Popsicles!
@melis I started wearing kleenex boxes on my feet, drinking my own urine and writing threatening letters to those fuckers at Swanson's TV Dinner. And Bitch was all "What is you? Howard Hughes?" And I was all "Fetch me my amphetamine/heroin/adrenichrome shot because the Mormons will be here at any second."
And you know what? Bitch left me. Probably for the best because I think she contracted sickle cell anemia when she visited her mother in Detroit.
@saythatscool NEVER LEAVE US FOR THIS LONG AGAIN
@melis
YWML
@melis I was busy busy designing a bra for Jane Russel. Sorry!
@saythatscool I need smooth titties, gentlemen. Smooth titties.
@HereKitty Mary Toft, is that you?
@ReginalTSquirge@twitter I have no idea if this is an in-joke or something but WHATEVER I LAUGHED SO THERE BLAH.
@DullHypothesis The "smooth titties" quote? see: "The Aviator"
@carolita Carolita, I hear you. I don't generally shave my legs (and I don't have fine, wispy, blonde, translucent hair either, but the semi-scary kind instead) and I'm like "HAHAHA, YOU DON'T LIKE IT THERE'S THE DOOR."
I also don't wear makeup or do my hair and generally look like a scrub, but hey, some people still want to tap that, God bless them.
@carolita Awesomely true. I am a lunatic and bf loves me. So much better than trying to be the cool girl. So much better than years spent at stupid parties, or seeing indie bands I hate or any of the other crap I did to be a cool gf. You can be caring and giving without giving yourself away! (It was a surprise to me.)
@Charlotte Rose "You can be caring and giving without giving yourself away".
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is one of my favorite Hairpin threads ever.
@Vera Knoop It was a Liz Lemon reference, but yours is MILES better -- Mary Toft FTW!
If I hadn't just declared myself on a boy-sabbatical, I would print this out and glue it to every surface in my house.
But since I am a bit too heartsick to see dating as anything other than one big disappointment after another at the moment... I'll bookmark it for later. If there is a later. Which at the moment I hope there never will be because no.
@PistolPackinMama No, you're pretty much right. But at least now, you are equipped with the knowledge that dating is one big disappointment!
I think this is the push I need to get me to end this terrible relationship I'm in, please. I've been considering writing to A Lady on how to tactfully let him know that I'm not being an asshole when I refuse to watch Transformers 2; I just went to film school and all and I can't bring myself to sit through it. It's not really that he's an asshole, because he helps me when I am in need and all, but he hates all my friends, the places I go, the music I listen to, the movies I want to see, etc., and when I need encouragement he just gives me "tough love." I think maybe we're just both awful and not in a synergy creating way. Pardon my rant here. In short, thank you, Nicole, for tellin' it like it is (imagine me singing that last part in Aaron Neville voice).
@Amber "when I need encouragement he just gives me 'tough love.'"
No, he really is an asshole.
@Amber: Transformers 2 is a deal breaker, high five on that.
@Amber Shut it down, seriously.
@Amber I'm sorry, but "helps me when I'm in need" does not make up for "hates everything/one I love, am interested in, am passionate about." I'm sure he's a perfectly nice young man, but it doesn't sound like he's YOUR perfectly nice young man. Somewhere out there is a fella with whom you can nerd out on obscure East German art film, and somewhere in the world is the Transformers-loving bore your current dude needs to be with.
@Amber I definitely did not go to film school, and I wouldn't sit through Transformers 2, either. It's not being an asshole, it's having eyes and ears and a working brain to go with them.
@Amber he's a judgmental juicebox who sounds so fracking insecure that he has to issue an edict on every opinion or taste you have to reaffirm for himself that he's brilliant. That's a dealbreaker, ladies. i can just tell (you look nice in your picture? you read the Pin?) that you deserve someone kinder.
@Amber "It's not really that he's an asshole, because he helps me when I am in need and all, but he hates all my friends, the places I go, the music I listen to, the movies I want to see, etc., and when I need encouragement he just gives me 'tough love.'"
He's an asshole.
@Amber "[H]e helps me when I am in need" is basically contradicted by, "when I need encouragement he just gives me "tough love.""
So . . . which is it? (dump hiiiiim)
@Amber I just got dumped by a boy who hates everything I like and would respond to my need for encouragement with "just try harder". I'm at a point where I'm most upset that I didn't get to break up with him first. Awful synergy is 100 times more apparent once it's gone.
@Jinxie I think I am that woman. I love movies where things explode, and bad pop music. If I wanted to think, I'd take a class. Oh wait, I am, and I just want to turn my brain off when I'm not doing school work. Also, I find it touching when men try to solve my problems, so as long as the tough love was accompanied by hugs... it might work. A lid for every pot!
There's someone for everyone (hopefully) but there are so many more perfectly nice people who are not for each of us. And this guy sounds like he is not the one for you Amber.
@Jinxie My lovely, brilliant lady friend said something really brilliant to me the other day, when we were both in a processing-the-exes-mode. Our exes are both pretty awesome, and the fact that they broke our hearts in some way is incidental to the ways that they are great in so many others, and I was all lost in the myopia of the ways that the former-mister-me was pretty awesome. Lady was like: "hey girl, you know what? He is awesome. That's great. But he's not *your* awesome. He's not your person." And I was like HOLY SHIT THAT'S EXACTLY IT: we have people who make us the better versions of us, and those people are our PEOPLE. All the other ones--well, they may be good people, too. But they don't have to be mine.
Does that make sense? He's just not my person. Say is with a lot of emphasis on "person," and maybe you, too, can feel the awesome sense of relief that just bowled me over.
@Emmanuelle Cunt You right, you right.
@alebee That is brilliant lady friend advice! I know I just need to get over the guilt of thinking "he didn't really do anything WRONG, per se" and just be honest that we aren't right for each other.
@Rrrowena I'm glad I'm not the only Transformers fan around here. I too love movies that go boom. I blame my brother's obsession with Arnie movies and mid 80s boy cartoons, and my inability to wrestle the remote away from him on Saturday mornings/weekday afternoons.
@alebee When my now-bf and I were first exploring the risks of taking our best-friendship in a new direction, he told me he was just so afraid of screwing things up because "You're my PERSON here [at law school]." Not sure if I'm doing it justice, it didn't come off selfish but rather very caring and careful. There were still some kinks to work out, but three years on we remain "my PERSON" to each other.
@Amber Yeah he's definitely not your person. The thought of not being right for someone is such a freeing one.
But here's my question: I used to have someone in my life who I considered to be "my PERSON" and things didn't work out for a few reasons (a big part was timing/circumstances). We had no closure at all - the way we left things, he said he didn't know what he wanted and needed some time. That was three months ago. I'm dating someone else now and he's a great guy.
Does it "feel right"? No, but I'm still hurting a little so I'm not sure if anything would. Plus, we get along and treat each other well, even if we aren't on the same page about a bunch of things. I guess what I'm wondering is, I should stick it out with the new guy, right? I enjoy being around him. It's not the same, but will that come with time? I just keep wondering if the "right person" is just too much to hope for.
@alebee Yes, this is perfect. There is a thing missing from that list and it is: Sometimes your relationships sucks because you're both awesome, but ion conflicting ways.
Sometimes two people are amazing and great, and may even be compatible up to a point, but at that point it's like they hit a brick wall and they are just not compatible anymore. Sometimes you can take that wall down if you both try really really hard for a really long time. But more often, you just can't make it work and it's no one's fault, but no one can fix it either.
It is my personal opinion that those ones hurt the most. But we are both awesome! Why can't we make it work?! Because. That is why.
@Amber YES. This. Thank you.
@alliepants It's only been less than three months with this new guy who is great and treats you well...so the concern is that you, what, don't have the same interests / values? I'd...not "stick it out" - that's a terrible phrase - but yeah, hang out with him a while. If the sex is good. Is the sex good? Maybe great guy is a rebound - maybe he's a stopover between other, better guys - who cares? That's fine too.
Just come back here in eight months all "I knew he wasn't The One but entropy and now we're living together and why didn't I break up with him???" Break up with him when you know it's time.
@Amber: Transformers 2 is a dealbreaker. Break up with this dude. Holy shit, how much of a pain in the ass is it to break up with people? It suuuuucks. I guess you do it like jumping into a cold lake. Just blurt it out with no preparation at totally the wrong time. "I BREAK UP WITH YOU!" and then run off, whatever.
@Amber So, I did it. Well, we both kind of did it. He showed up at my house and cooked a big meal of food he knew I would not eat, made a giant mess, and then left after I told him I didn't think he was "my person." He didn't clean up the mess. But my lovely roommates did.
@Amber Good for you! Really, that is such a hard thing to do. You're the best!
@Amber High five, Amber! Awesome! You are balls.
@Amber Way to go. It can be hard to break it off when nothing "catastrophic" (other than a raging case of juiceboxery) happens, like someone cheating or moving. Sounds like you made the right call, judging from that last interaction...
"One year, two year relationships are not that much work, or, at least, they shouldn't be."
Speak for yourself, sister. For some of us, even a few dates is a ton of work. Shit, even getting to a first date is exhausting.
@ReginalTSquirge@twitter Speaking in solidarity with you since I have a really hard time finding dates, I interpreted her point as more that if you've been with someone for one or two years, you shouldn't necessarily be at that "love is hard" place that you hear longer-coupled folks talk about. You know, where a couple says how much work the relationship is, or how there are periods where you might stop liking/loving each other for a while, but you pull through it because you have that faith in your love and connection. Like, maybe it just...shouldn't ever be that hard in the first two years.
I know that I was in a place in a two-year relationship where I was willing to bargain and say "Okay, I'll put up with a shitty six months if you can promise me that it we'll get through this tough time", because I thought that's what really committed, loving couples did. And I think that is a sign of a loving, committed couple, but I think a big part of what makes that an option is having a longer track record of awesomeness with someone before having to deal with that deep, soul-numbing level of shit.
Does...any of that make sense?
@wee_ramekin Yeah, I understand. I was just being bitter.
@wee_ramekin "I know that I was in a place in a two-year relationship where I was willing to bargain and say "Okay, I'll put up with a shitty six months if you can promise me that it we'll get through this tough time", because I thought that's what really committed, loving couples did. And I think that is a sign of a loving, committed couple, but I think a big part of what makes that an option is having a longer track record of awesomeness with someone before having to deal with that deep, soul-numbing level of shit."
Oh my GOWWWD, that makes so much sense. Thank you for putting it so plainly and clearly.
I guess it just seems like all relationships require that level of, "Uuughhhh, fine, I'll put up with this," even early on. But maybe I'm in the wrong relationship? Is it supposed to be easy, fun, fun times for the first few years? Is it similar to meeting a best friend and things just click immediately? Does that even happen? The gray area, for me, is when my partner treats me with respect, kindness, affection, but isn't as... spontaneous as I'd like them to be. Or doesn't laugh as loudly at my jokes as I would like [ugh, I am awful; see below]. Are these break-up worthy things? Or am I just being a moron?
Also, I'm super glad that the author didn't make it one of those, "Gurl, you're awesome, he's a dudebro douchebag!" Because honestly, after some self-reflection, that's hard to always believe. I've seen myself in my relationships, in one of those awful out of body, zoom out moments when we're fighting, and I shudder because I'm like, "I'M A MONSTER! (Wrestles self to ground with claw)"
@wee_ramekin I definitely agree, but I also think that there can be extenuating circumstances. Ooooor maybe I just don't want to break up with my guy. We dated for a year when we lived in the same place, and now we're going on month 7 of long-distance. Semi-indefinitely. And it's really, really hard a lot of the time, but when we're in the same place (one of us flies to see the other at least once a month!) it's amazing and lovely. So like.... idk I don't want to break up with him even though I'm sad a lot of the time ;____;
@Passion Fruit
I think if something bothers you, it matters, no matter how significant or insignificant it seems from an onlooker's perspective.
For example, imagine a guy who calls really late at night to talk. It bothers people who like to sleep/value their alone time, and they might be like "this guy does not respect that I need to be rested", but it doesn't bother people who fall asleep easily/treasure being there for a person, who might be like "out of all his friends, this guy calls me, which is awesome".
Someone's quirks can be an annoyance/dealbreaker for one partner and the subtle thing that makes the relationship cozier for another.
Make the best of overpopulation and don't settle.
@realtalk No there are definitely extenuating circumstances. Last fall in the space of less than a month my dad died, my boyfriend's grandfather died, his aunt was diagnosed with brain cancer, and I moved in with him into a less than ideal space. There were absolutely days (and weeks) where we could not deal with shit and could not deal with each other. Because while it's all nice and all to be "XYZ should be my safe space no matter how hard things get" there also comes a point where you have just reached the limit of your ability to deal as humans. And even though we'd only been together a year I told myself to shut my eyes, take a deep breath and deal because it would probably get better.
And it did. It was hard. I sucked and then he sucked and eventually it all just sucked. And then it started to get easier. And now I feel like we can probably hold on through anything.
But yeah, thems really special circumstances.
@Inkcrafter "Make the best of overpopulation and don't settle." Ummmm how do I choose between embroidering that onto a pillow vs. tattooing it onto my forearm?
@wee_ramekin This pretty much nails it. If it isn't fun and easy and sexy and relaxing at the beginning (not perfect, just a refreshment and not a drain on your emotional resources), what are the odds that it's going to be five years in? Pretty damn small.
@H.E. Ladypants We had a thing like that. Our kid was 3 and life sucked and it was me against him. I made noises about leaving, because it was so shitty. We had some unpleasant conversations and it changed to me AND him against the world. That's when I knew we'd be alright (until we have another shitty year?).
Being alone is so, so, so much better than being with someone who does not completely rock your world. I swear to god. Getting really fucking picky is the best thing I've ever done for myself and I will never go back.
@noReally OMG yes. Once I got comfortable being alone, life was grand.
I love hanging out with myself. Bad relationships mostly get worse, whereas hanging out alone gets easier and better with time.
@:Cinnamon Girl: That happened to me too! Also the thing about getting picky. But I have worked out, you get picky about the way they treat you, sharing basic values and some tastes/hobbies, basically being happy and how much you like them. You don't get picky about all the shit that articles on Wah Single Women Are Single accuse single women of being picky about: their job, where they live, their height, etc.
@noReally So, I have this thread bookmarked, and I come back periodically to read the comment thread, especially this one, whenever I start to feel sad about being single. Most of the time, I love being single and wouldn't have it any other way, but sometimes I need some validation for my feelings, and this comment (and those below it) always make me feel better.
"If what you genuinely, truly love is watching The Voice while drinking cranberry juice out of your wineglasses..." - why oh why would you drink anything but wine out of your wineglasses? Cranberry juice has its place, but wine > cranberry juice, any time.
@themegnapkin also - shouldn't it be, "get rid of your relationship, seriously, your relationship is disgusting"?
@themegnapkin what if you only own wineglasses because you like to be fancy?
@Megan Patterson@facebook Or what you just like drinking everything out of wine glasses because it makes you feel fancy?
@thebestjasmine Or, what sounds more fun for a wino like me - drinking wine out of everything, rather than drinking everything out of wine glasses?
@themegnapkin Obviously by this point I've made way too many dollhead wineglasses to limit their use to wine.
The only thing I would add is: don't try to change awful. Awful doesn't become awesome overnight, sometimes it never becomes awesome. Don't waste your precious time or work too hard trying to make awful into awesome. It's not your job to realize someone else's potential when they don't care about it.
@parallel-lines Seriously. I keep having to remind myself of this and the related "You cannot cure someone's depression for them."
@parallel-lines I loved how a friend recently put it: I finally realized you can't love it out of them.
@parallel-lines
And you can't argue with crazy. Unless you want to end up crazy, which could be why LW is feeling a little crazy. I don't know, that happened to a friend of mine.
Is there some way I can send this back in time to 22-year-old me? It would really save past-me a lot of tears and unfortunate Coldplay sing-alongs.
@Daisy Razor
I'm pretending I'm parallel-world 22-year-old you and I will learn it right now, to save myself from Coldplay.
Since I am an old (literally) grouch, I have to point out that the prospect of growing old alone is not a happy one. Per yesterday's NYT about the increasing number of single folks in their 50s and 60s:
"Unmarried baby boomers are five times more likely to live in poverty than their married counterparts, statistics show. They are also three times as likely to receive food stamps, public assistance or disability payments."
Not that this is a reason to stay in a bad relationship - but as a childless, unexpectedly-single-as-I-approach-my-50s gay man, I suspect I have a different take on things. The whole "oh, of course you'll meet someone - and if you don't, who cares? You'll be single and loving it!" doesn't always ring particularly true.
I was just having this conversation with a good friend about this - it gets exhausting being single. I have to be responsible for everything in my life. There's never someone else to deal with getting the dripping faucet in the bathroom fixed or arguing with the cable company or cleaning up the cat puke. Sure, there's much to like about he carefree nature of singledom - but it seems to lose its luster as time goes on. I suppose the same is true of many relationships, but at least there's someone around to make soup when I have the flu.
@ejcsanfran Real talk.
@ejcsanfran I'm much younger than you, but I don't really like being single either. I don't like being in a shitty relationship, but I don't really like single either. I want "my person".
@ejcsanfran
But being in a relationship in your 30s or 40s, say, is no guarantee that someone's going to be there for you in your 50s.
If I'm (still!) single into old age, I hope I'll be lucky enough to buddy up and live with some divorced/widowed/never married friends. The "alone or with a partner, no other options" thing can't be gone soon enough to suit me. Maybe young people who grew up watching the Golden Girls will be inspired to let that nonsense finally die...
@ejcsanfran We have to find alternative ways to get support, happiness, love. We have to find alternative ways to grow old. The couplehood thing? It doesn't work for A LOT of people. I doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for most of the people I'm close to. We joke about saving for a retirement home where hot male nurses will take care of us as we age. Will that happen? I don't know. What I do know: being part of a couple isn't the only way to get the things you want and need as you grow old.
Fuck the New York Times.
@skyslang Was coming here to say this. I know my friends and I spend a lot of time thinking about how much the nuclear family sucks even if you have a partner, and we hate the idea of all dividing off into little couple-groups as we get older. I'm hoping our generation is gonna figure this shit out, and when we're all grown up we'll be living in weird assorted family groups that aren't just based on one person who is in a relationship with one other person.
@City_Dater: Points taken. I think part of my own point is that, especially when one is a bit younger, there can be a certain amount of glibness about the reality of being single. It's more difficult - that doesn't make it better or worse by definition, but it is more difficult.
One certainly shouldn't stay in a relationship that is unhealthy, unfulfilling or making you miserable - but the idea that you should never go on a hike because you don't like to hike but your significant other does? That seems awfully selfish and contrary to the reality of being in a relationship. Doesn't mean you have to be phony - but maybe it's okay to just be nice?
This is completely fair: I have trudged along on numerous things my husband loves to do, and now I love some of those things too. But he was never under the mistaken belief that I hoped to build my life around wearing those shoes with all the individual toes.
More fair: I absolutely loathe being single.
@Nicole Cliffe How did you meet Mr. Lazy? Can you please do a post on this??
@.Lauren. Oh, I picked him up at a work party and then hounded him ceaselessly until he fell in love with me. Seriously, nothing to emulate here!
@Nicole Cliffe But but but! I. Want. More. Details. (how did you pick him up and how did you hound him and how long until he fell in love with you?)
@ejcsanfran - Oh man, I am only just about to enter my 30s, and it's weird. I have never been in a 'live with a person' relationship, and the other morning, I was making my bed, and I almost broke down in anger.
Because I just wanted somebody else to make the fucking bed. Regular physical intimacy and all of that, yeah, I want that. But I was on the verge of fucking screaming when I realized that, setting aside vacations / hotels for work, the last 500+ a lot times my bed has been made, it has been made by me.
I'm not saying I want someone else to always clean up my shit, I'm happy to make it half the time - or even all the time, and a SO can pick up some of the other chores - but it's just that, unless it's a dinner party, everything I touch / do / disarray is just for me, and just me is going to be the one re-arraying it. Ugh.
This must be why people like me who are single for too long just eat dinner out of the pan they cooked it in instead of bothering to transfer it to a plate.
@ejcsanfran My wonderful mother never married and did the whole single mom thing. Now all of us children have left the nest. I always worry about her being alone. I realized, thought, that she's always taught me that family is always the most important, the most supportive. And by family, she means even some random second cousin i've met twice. So by being supportive of her entire extended family she's managed to create a life where being alone isn't lonely. It just means she lives by herself, but she has plenty of people that are a drive (or phone call away). The perceptions of one person to support you are very nice, but I think that there are plenty of alternatives to it.
@ejcsanfran Yes, all this is understandable, but this is assuming that the other person even helps with any of these things. There is something to having a companion, even if it's not the fulfilling relationship you may have envisioned for yourself, and I think as we get older, we realize that. But then there is also when a relationship makes your life harder, which is what I think Nicole is speaking about, and can be so much worse than being alone.
@leon.saintjean
@leon.saintjean: Study Reveals Majority Of Suicides Occur While Trying To Put Fitted Sheet On Bed
Also, while I've given up on never eating in front of the TV, I refuse to eat straight from the pan (or more likely take-out carton)
@ejcsanfran I don't think the writer was saying to never go on a hike, she was saying don't lie about liking hiking or might end up with someone you aren't compatible with.
@ejcsanfran It can really suck to be single, but I think the solution is to not get discouraged about going out and meeting people, not sticking with someone who's not that great for you. Because I think the positive aspect of having relationships not work is that you do eventually figure out, to some extent, what you actually want in another person, as opposed to what you might have thought you wanted.
@leon.saintjean For serious. This is why I just can't bring myself to buy a new couch and/or actual grown-up bedframe even though I really want one. Because I'm the only one that's ever even going to see it, what's the point?
@leon.saintjean Oh Singin, how I relate.
I almost threw my cat's food bowl across the room last night because I am just so.fucking.tired of doing All Of It, all by myself, all the time.
@ejcsanfran @ejcsanfran I am totally getting where you're coming from, and I think you have a valid point about the grind of having to do everything for yourself.
One thing I would add, though, is the history of incredible inequality within heterosexual relationships when it comes to marriage and aging. I remember taking a class on women and health and reading statistic after depressing statistic showing that women bear the burden of being caretakers, not only in their marriages, but for any aging, ill, or disabled family members.
More recently, I remember reading a study showing how heterosexual marriage has been proven to extend men's lives and offer many benefits, whereas for women marriage offers few to no benefits (wish I could remember where I read the study).
Anyhow, my long-winded point is that I think hetero women are still socialized to a large extent to think that marriage will benefit them in the long run and to just stick with a miserable relationship because they will somehow be better off than if they were single, but the reality is wives end up taking care of aging, dying husbands who in turn have a higher degree of likelihood of abandoning their chronically ill or disabled wives (due to less social pressure to be the sacrificing caretaker).
Anecodtally, I know so many older divorced hetero women, many of whom are solely responsible for their elderly parents or grown children with disabilities, who are completely uninterested in remarriage and are happy to ONLY have to make soup for themselves.
I feel like this sounds super cynical, but it was an eye-opening class and the stats really stuck in my head and terrified me a little.
@City_Dater A-yup. Pretty much all the families I knew growing up were nice married couples with a couple of kids. By the time I had graduated college, half of them had split up pretty dramatically. I get that some people hate being single. That's okay! But it's like having kids just so you'll have someone to visit you in the nursing home--there's absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that those kids you have are going to fill that role you see for them, because they are separate human beings who are going to live their lives as they see fit.
Be in a relationship with someone because you want to be with them. If you're toughing out a relationship with someone you don't really like just because you hate being alone and live in fear of growing old with no partner...it's entirely possible that you'll put yourself through all that shit and they'll still leave you high and dry. Paying that kind of price for something that you can't be assured of is a bad business, and that's before we get into the scenario where they don't leave you, but you do spend three-quarters of your life in a relationship that's more of a grudge-match with occasional bursts of fucking.
@kapitalk Just re-read my comment and felt depressed. I agree there need to be more Golden Girl-style options for aging!
@ReginalTSquirge@twitter: Actually, that's one of the better things about being single - buying furniture without having consult someone else. When I was still with what's-his-name we nearly came to blows in Crate & Barrel over a Marimekko duvet (which frankly should've been a big red flag - who doesn't like Marimekko?)
But seriously, treating yourself to nice things in your home (your sad, lonely, Mary-Ann-Singleton home...) is great. You get to keep them as you like them, you don't have some slob getting his gross hair products all over your freshly-pressed pillow cases and you can revel in the fact that your married friends with kids likely live in conditions similar to those on "Hoarders."
@leon.saintjean I will so totally make the bed whenever necessary if you will get dinner started when you get home before me! Or even just cook together and sit down and eat together?
@ReginalTSquirge@twitter lol, buy a new couch and bed ASAP, so you can buy exactly what you want without taking anyone else's opinion into account!
@kapitalk My SO does a pretty good job of being a good little feminist and carrying his weight, but those studies (I remember reading about it too) do feel true. Sometimes, as @ejcsanfran aludes, the constant compromise is more exhausting than the doing something for yourself.
@leon.saintjean This is way late dude, but you know your pans are way too nice to be stabbing your fork in them! don't do that
@leon.saintjean Yeah, but then again you could be married with the same problem. So, count your blessings.
@kapitalk Yes, this is the thing. Your quality of life may not actually be better in a relationship, even if it is the difference between being above or below the poverty line. There's a sliding scale of awfulness from both directions, I think. I mean, if you are with someone who makes you feel miserable, maybe it's worth only eating noodles forever to not be with them. Then again, maybe not.
@leon and rammie oh I FEEL YOU. I almost never put the toilet roll on the holder. I just cannot bring myself to do it. I am TIRED of it. Tired of being the one responsible for everything. It's exhausting. Sometimes I leave things until my boyfriend is over and do them then - yesterday I didn't cook, do the dishes or make the bed until he came to visit. I still did them all myself but they didn't feel so heavy, if that makes sense. I loved being single, and I love living by myself still in a lot of ways. I was really surprised when we got together by how badly I want to live together - sometimes I feel mercenary because a large part of it is to make my own life easier, rather than about him/us. But also maybe then I'll be bothered cooking properly regularly, because it seems worth the bother, or any million other things. As much as I love not having to consult anyone else about the things I do, it is also a heavy weight to carry, some times.
(I hope this isn't too in-your-faceish. I feel bad talking about my boyfriend on threads like this. But for this purpose, we are not going to be able to live together for at least another three years, probably more. And I've lived alone most of my life - by choice, I love it, but man. Some days I'm TIRED. I'm already planning my evening - do the dishes (again, again, again) take the laundry off the line, toast for dinner, bed. Whoo!)
@ejcsanfran Fist bump, homes. That is indeed real talk. Hope you find somebody.
@ejcsanfran This is very relevant to my interests, and your situation sounds hard, so I don't want to underplay it. BUT! I believe that this is in part situational - I went through a similar spate after an unexpected breakup and I think on some level it is just pure anger working itself out. The worst thing you can do - having done this - is get back into a relationship purely because you want someone to help you fight off the Alsatians and/or make soup. To use leon.saintjean's example below, the fact that someone else is in your life does not mean that person is going to make the bed or help out, please don't make decisions about your emotional life based on those criteria alone.
I think this may be worse in NY and other large cities, where life is often so expensive and daunting as well. I feel like every time one of my friends starts going out with someone and it is going well, within a few weeks they start talking about how much more apartment they could afford if they lived together. This is a recipe for disaster! Live together because you want to see each other all the time, be in a relationship with someone because you want to love them! Do not live with someone so they can help you do the dishes and pay the rent, and do not be in a relationship with them so that you can have another closet and they can do dishes/make the bed! Easier said than done, I know and exeunt rant.
The one thing your list is missing: relationships that suck because you're totally wrong for each other. That's my parents. They should have been divorced 30 years ago. I wish I could go back in time and give this post to my mom!
@skyslang ugghhhh me too but then I wouldn't have been born!!!
@skysland and myself:
I actually had a shocking realization over the holidays because I have a relative who has made lots of bad relationship decisions (and needed this column BADLY, years ago, though I think her current relationship is going well? He seems like a good guy...). I was thinking to myself, "How did my relative come to be this way? We come from a loving, supportive family and she has so much to offer the world!" THEN it dawned on me that my mom has basically rationalized staying in a stagnant relationship with my dad for all the reasons my cousin used to rationalize her previous relationships. And that was scary. MOMMY. AAAAAHHHHHHH.
@beeline96 Oh! I'd give her the letter when I was about five.
@skyslang same story with my parents, and is the sentiment of this sharon olds poem i have a soft spot for, about that very thing: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/176442
@skyslang Yeah, I thought that was missing, too. You can both be totally awesome people--who even appreciate how awesome the other person is and don't want to lose them, because they're awesome--but just be completely wrong for each other. It happens! But it's important to be able to let it go if it just isn't working and see if you can come back to each other as just friends.
@Meaghan O'Connell@facebook Oh, that poem hit home.
I've had several people comment on how ok I am that my mother got a new boyfriend six months after my dad died. I can't explain that as far as I was concerned, my parents had not really been in a relationship for years.
Guys. Do NOT stay together for the kids, ok? Break up for the kids, for the love of god. (Probably a lot of people are going to disagree with this one?)
@Craftastrophies (Probably a lot of people are going to disagree with this one?)
Not this child of divorce. Amen!
@Craftastrophies My parents got divorced when I was 22 or 23, but I remember being 12 riding to church in a silent, tense car, thinking "why don't they just split up already?" HEAR, HEAR!
Yes, Nicole. As my auntie would say: take it to church, let the choir say "Amen," and sop up this truth like a biscuit.
@applestoapples I don't even know what to do with this saying... but I really love it.
Feel like they're a radiator and not a drain?! THAT IS THE BEST WAY TO DESCRIBE GOOD PEOPLE EVER. Thanks, Nicole's best friend's grandma!
@SarahP Ikr? I will use that forever!
@SarahP This is going to go RIGHT where I can see it by my door every day. I'm beginning to accept that I need the constant reminder to not invest too much in people who are not right for me in order for it to even mildly sink in to my infatuation/insecurity-brain
@SarahP That goes with "I need an elixir, not an anodyne" in my personal canon.
@hedgehog That saying is amazing, and needs to be stitched on a cushion right now.
Seriously, I don't even care if I grow into an old cat lady anymore. What you see is what you get is the best motto I've heard yet!
Apparently I had a LOT of feelings that I didn't know about, because I'm crying. I make a less awesome version of this speech to my lady friends all of the time, but I needed someone to say it to me. Thanks, Nicole. (BTW I feel like my username is most appropriate at this moment)
The thing that seems to characterize so many "why are you still with him/her" relationships is the feeling of being stuck. Too hard to leave, too many unknowns if you do, too many obstacles to getting out, too much fear of being without him/her, too much period.
I got stuck once. I dug a hole and stayed in there for entirely too long. I made bad decisions, but mostly, I made no decisions. I stayed in one place, hoping to get better, but doing very little to actually get better.
What I learned from this utterly miserable experience is the power of momentum. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. It was getting moving - taking those first steps - that stymied me. I felt safe in my little hole, even though it was a miserable place. I had no idea to get out, and eventually, I needed a boost out of there. I got it.
And then, it became the rule of Three Things. Set a goal of accomplishing three things each day to move yourself in the direction you want to go. They should be small things, but they should be actions, not thoughts or ideas. Build on the previous day's three things and get your momentum going.
For LW2, the most important thing to do is to make the decision to end the relationship. From that thought, take actions. Find a place to stay if you live with him - ask friends, family, find a room for rent in a house somewhere. Enlist a friend to be your breakup wingman and use him/her - your perspective is warped, and you will need someone who will overrule your decisions in weak moments. Reconnect with an old friend you have always admired, and listen more than you speak the first few times you get together. Hire a shrink or find a low-cost support group and go to those meetings, even if you aren't ready to say a thing. Write an outline of the first chapter of that great novel you want to write. Pay in advance for each cocktail you crave by walking or jogging half an hour. Listen more than you speak for a while.
@karion Yes! This has been a pattern for me, in that I've spent every single relationship of my life with one foot in and one foot out. I can always make a case for staying or going. Every time I left a relationship (which was, er, every time), I felt like I was having to saw off my own arm. I always thought, "These particular good things we have will be impossible to replace!" That thought led me to compromise a little too much of myself.
But the momentum was everything, you're right. One little step turned to two, and so on.
Also, the Three Things rule is so good. I needed it. Thanks.
@karion YES. Never underestimate the power of inertia, and fear of the unknown. The thing I tell myself all the time is 'not making a decision is making a decision, too'. Choosing not to leave is choosing to stay. Choosing not to do the dishes is choosing to leave dirty dishes everywhere. Whatever. Framing it like that makes me realise whether I am ok with the (the dishes can stay, for now) or not (the relationship can go).
Once you get going, you get reminded that you ARE a person who has power, who can make things happen. Even if it's just choosing a new brand of soap, you changed things. Work up from there. When I'm feeling low motivation/depressed, I do the three things. Before I go to sleep I list three good things I did that day. They might just be that I flossed and did a really good job cleaning my teeth, and that I ate a healthy meal. Or they might be bigger. But it reminds me that I am capable and functional. So necessary.
Erk, this post is making me feel sort of sick to my stomach, in a dreading, guilty, over-emotional way. I need help! :(
@Annie Walsh@twitter Don't feel bad because me too a little, even though I'm in a happy relationship right now. But written out up there, it makes me remember stuff from the past, especially, "When it's us, we seem to operate under some kind of lame delusion that a) we've invested something priceless in our relationship, and b) it could get better." Oh, so, so, so true, and all that wasted time and bad feelings and decisions and all of it and I hope to never have to deal with it again...
"When you genuinely enjoy someone and feel like, to quote my best friend's grandmother, they are a radiator and not a drain, it's the place you go to to escape your terrible job, or your aggravating family. It's supposed to be your home."
I had to remind myself of that this week. I had to apologize to my boy for putting added stress on his currently stressful life. I know that I'm supposed to be the reliable, not-crazy person who supports him. But man, is that hard sometimes.
@ohmy But he's also supposed to be the reliable, not-crazy person who supports him. Maybe this week was your turn to bask in the heat of his radiator.
@gobblegirl Oh i completely agree, except that the stress I was adding was me freaking out because he had to cancel plans (again) in order to placate his mother, who is being clingy because he's moving away. So it was relationship-related stress and not outside stress (for which he is usually very supportive/helpful). Someday I will need to bask in his radiator heat and hopefully he will know what to do.
My girl Sugar said it best...be brave enough to break your own heart
(things I have printed in my wallet for $500, Alex: http://therumpus.net/2011/02/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-64/)
@Gordon Bombay Oooooh, love me some Sugar. I've got her poster of sayings framed in my room.
@Gordon Bombay That phrase is perfect and worth remembering always for a lot of different reasons.
Yes, absolutely....and also no. And I say the no part because I spent over a year thinking about leaving a six year relationship that I no longer wanted to be in and checking out in all sorts of ways and really feeling like all the love was gone and being really unhappy as I tried to get up the courage the leave.
I decided six months ago that one of the things I would do is go to a counsellor to talk about how to get the process started. And after one session she said, essentially, "It sounds like you still love him, and even like him, but there's a lot of anger and resentment and bad communication patterns than are preventing this from being a good relationship." And my dude and I went for some counselling together (something which scared the crap out of him) and me separately still, and had some hard conversations, and it was amazing how quickly we both became so much happier and our relationship better than it has been for years. So much better!
So, counselling to make sure the relationship is standing in the way of your happiness, not just the way the relationship currently functions. And if it is that, then yes, get out. And if one or both partners aren't willing to do the work that comes with making it better, then yes, get out. Because that's a damn good sign.
@swirrlygrrl The thing I would say about counselling is this: it is most useful before you think you need it. I used to work in a counselling organisation, and read all the studies, etc. Statistically (sorry!) most couples who present for counselling are past the point of fixing anything - mostly because they are there because one partner refuses to do any work to fix things, and thinks that just turning up to counselling is the same as putting in effort. Not all, obviously (and serious congratulations on working things out, that is hard and brave).
On the other hand, if couples go to counselling the first or second time they have communication issues, it can give them a chance to set better patterns in motion, and get that stuff out there before it becomes resentment and anger.
The trouble is that going to counselling seems like admitting that you are crazy/broken. I still have that reaction, I'm working on it. But having a third party with communication skills give you pointers can be really helpful.
but what if i'm stressed out by literally every human I know? I mean, i love lots of people, but every last relationship I have has at some time or another made me more anxious than happy. By necessity, therefore, the person I'm closest to (at one point it was my roommate/best friend, but now that person is my partner) is the person who stresses me out most. Needless to say, I am always the "awful" one in the above diagram. He also happens to be the person who makes me want to be better and makes me try harder. Am I the only one who can't imagine having an entirely "easy" relationship, unless the person were a Real Doll (tm)?
@candybeans well what about the relationships (romantic or not) makes you anxious? It took me totally sabotaging a relationship with a swell dude with my own anxiety and abandonment fears to get my butt into therapy.
@Gordon Bombay oh, believe me, my butt, and its own load of abandonment issues and neuroses, is firmly in a therapist's chair. And: everything about the relationship? All the things I say and do, basically? Lots of fretting. I'm also particularly bad at compromise, so knowing what's a good compromise, what's selfish, and what's me being a doormat, is almost impossible for me to identify. All the things. the things ALL make me anxious.
@candybeans Hey girl, I feel you on this one, for real. I had this same problem, a constant base level of fear/anxiety in intimate relationships. Mostly with dudes I was dating, and also with some friends. I went to therapy for something completely different (work issues) and my therapist immediately recognized my need to, as she says it "live my life as a genuine version of myself." Basically I was anxious about how I was presenting myself to people I wanted to love me. So it wasn't that I was fucked up, it was that I was too worried I was fucked up to be my not-fucked-up self. This may not be your issue, but I bet a good therapist could find what yours is. Although it sounds like you might be a lot like me, in that you're always pushing, always striving, always wanting to be better. My therapist says this is a good impulse, it makes you show up to work on time, pay your bills, etc. But in excess and in the wrong areas it causes exactly what you described. So if that's the case with you, as it is with me, congratulations on being awesome, now you just gotta learn to turn it off sometimes! Half the battle's already won!
Relationships are never easy in that building intimacy and trust are difficult, long-term processes. However, they are easy in that they should make you less anxious. Do you have anyone in your life that feels like home? Like a parent or a sibling? It blew my mind when I realized I could be that person with everyone. I'm still working on it, but yea, the "easy" feelings will come. I've only been working on it for a year now, and already I DTMFA to a bad boyfriend, built a few nice new friendships (I moved to a new city not long before starting therapy) and have just started seeing a really good dude who makes me feel less anxious! (Most of the time, I'm still working on it!) It'll come, querida mia, it'll come.
ETA: This turned out really long, obviously I have feelings about this, but IDK, I struggled with this for such a long time and starting to work on it felt so good and was such a relief I wanted to express it, but I am too long-winded!
@candybeans Oh lady, I want to give you a big, abandonment free hug. I know everyone is different, but for me, coming to terms with the fact that if I dont save every relationship in my life (men, friends, goldfish), everything WILL be okay, was crucial. And even if it's awful for awhile, this too shall pass. That, and lots of wandering around my city to get out of my head.
/now I'm tearing up so I'm going to go watch some Paul Rudd movies.
@candybeans I want to get drunk with you. I'm just saying.
@DullHypothesis Thanks so much for sharing. Yeah, these are some of the exact same issues that me and ol' therapistface are discussing right NOW. The thing is that, right now, I don't really have a person who feels totally like home; this distance from others is of my own doing, and can't be blamed on anyone (though that sort of insulation from intimacy is a coping mechanism I developed in reaction to some different people--but it's still not ALL your fault, mom).
Anyhow. it's *really* wonderful to hear from someone on the other side of this, or someone who can at least see what it looks like on the other end of the tunnel. I do think my therapist is aces, though, and if anyone is going to help me work through this shit, it's her.
@DullHypothesis @Gordon Bombay let's drink WHILE watching paul rudd movies! Oh, and cheesecake, since the Golden Girls came up upthread.
@candybeans This is not to say your relationship is anything like mine was, but "I am always the 'awful' one in the above diagram . . . he also happens to be the person who makes me want to be better and makes me try harder," reminds me a lot of a relationship I had a few years ago. I recently described that relationship to a new (and much older and wiser) friend, who said it sounded a lot to her like he was emotionally abusive and that my "awful" behavior was the natural response of "a strong spirit trying to fight back". That really threw me, but having thought about it, I realized that the only one who ever made me feel like I was being an awful person was my ex. And this is typical manipulative behavior in abusers regardless of whether or not they know they're being manipulative.
What I'm saying here is to stop being so hard on yourself and really take a good look at the dynamics of your relationship. You might be truly surprised at what you find.
@GoToaster yeah, I can see what you read in what I said that'd make you think that. I wish I'd said that he sees the best in me, and pushes me to try for something better even when I don't have faith in myself to do it. He has much more good stuff to say about me than I do about me. And, gosh, a million other good qualities. I see that the awfulness I refer to can be subjective --but in this case, it really is me, and is the result of some shitty patterns picked up from my family, including such hits as, "nothing of emotional significance can be shared without screaming, " and "never be kind to the people closest to you, because then they'd know you liked them and. it'd all be ruined." But, you're totally right about really looking at the dynamics of the relationship and seeing what's really going on, because I do think we've fallen into some patterns that are not doing either of us any good.
@candybeans Yes, all of this, this was me. And somehow I found someone who just... stepped behind all my issues, and there we were together behind my defensive wall. I still have no freaking idea how that happened - I think some of it is knowing that he thinks I am amazing, somehow, and it never occurs to him that I would stop being like that. I don't have to try anymore - which makes me want to try where it counts, to be a good person not just LOOK like a good person. I was just marvelling the other day at how he is the only person in the whole world that I can spend more than four hours with without getting tired and jumpy and anxious. I really hope this isn't too braggy - I just mean to say that it is possible. It DOES take lots of work from both of us to communicate well, etc, and sometimes it's tough. But worth it.
In my family it's more like 'never show that you care about something, then they'll know that you're weak and they can use that to hurt you'. And 'if you are upset, it is definitely, absolutely someone else's fault, and you should tell them that they've hurt you by being useless, and are an awful person.' Luckily (?) my partner's family had some of the same dynamics, so he understands how to get around those patterns. We've both worked on our own psyches individually, and we help each other to do better at that, as well.
Although I have just made a promise to myself that I will go find a mental health professional in the next few months, because I have this base level of anxiety that is making me tired. I need to deal with it, because it's no way to live. What I mean to say is, despite all the humblebragging (sorry!) it's certainly not perfect. It takes work and sometimes we freak each other out, but we always manage to come back to each other and talk it out and it gets better and easier every time.
@craftastrophies Thanks, lady--the more comments of yours i read, the more i feel that our families are quite similar in all the worst ways... it is great to hear from the other side, from someone who has had luck working through some of the same issues with a good partner. It's nice to think that i should have hope for myself and my relationship. Its amazing how many issues get better when I have a bit more self-confidence--even if it's self-confidence acquired from something totally random and seemingly unrelated, like a new overhead press weight, or doing something right at work.
anyhow. thanks, ladies! thanks for letting me know others have been where I am, and are no longer in that place, and know how much better it is on the other side. Again, I am reminded of how lucky I am to have found the Pin.
@candybeans Yeah, sounds like it. Hooray for us?
It totally is possible. Not easy, but possible. And it sounds like you're on the right track, and you're doing ok. Seriously, give yourself props for even thinking about this, so many people never do, and never deal with it. Well, because it's hard! But worth it.
I want to give this to 15-year-old me and wrap her up in a bear hug and repeat, over and over, "dump him dump him dump him." She went on to let him abuse her for 5 more years. :(
@tortietabbie I'm so glad that you're out now, tortie.
@tortietabbie
Better five years than five years and a day, little torts :) If you ever want to eat his dahlias and disqualify him from the county garden fair, we will all be behind you.
Just want to throw out there that sometimes a relationship sucks not because *either* of you are awful, but you're just not right for each other. I stayed with my first boyfriend about 3 years too long because there was nothing really wrong with him and the relationship wasn't terrible, so it took me a while to realize that he just wasn't supporting me / complimenting my life / helping me become the person I wanted to be. Because I was expecting big red flags, I missed the little ones.
@PomPom Yes, me too!!!
@wee_ramekin @ejcsanfran There's a flip side to this, which NeenerNeener kind of gets at with "this is assuming that the other person even helps with any of these things." I'm relieved and grateful to have everything up to me - maybe I'll feel differently in a few years, but right now having to take care of it all myself is much nicer than quietly resenting the person who is supposed to be my #1 because they're not doing what I need/want. @ReginaTSquirge@Twitter, you seeing the piece of furniture is the point. Buy yourself something nice and feel happy every time you look at it.
@PomoFrannyGlass I saw some study about how single mothers actually do less housework, on average, than partnered mothers. That made me very, very sad.
This is so timely. Today is my 16th anniversary and not a word from my 'other half'... Can't leave because we have a toddler who he already told me he would keep from me if I ever left. Sign me, Miserable and waiting for my child to turn 18.
@saywhatnow? Is there no way you could take it to the courts, get them to rule that you get partial or full custody or at least guaranteed access? I am far, far from an expert, but there must be something?
More importantly, I am so sorry that you are in this situation, and best of luck to you.
@saywhatnow? I'm not sure how much power he would have to do that, the courts do prefer to keep children with their mother.
@Megan Patterson@facebook He has a high-paying job and travels all the time so I have taken primary care of our child his whole life. Husband said he would quit the job and get full custody if I ever went through with divorce. He is like a 2-sided person. If you met him you would think he was so great... Not great to live with or be married to. Never an acknowledgement of birthday, anniversary, valentine. Didn't even get a card for our kid to get me. He insists he does not want a divorce because he loves me and the fact that I am unhappy is all my fault and my problem. I can't do it to my son. I feel like I can't break up his family. But he has started trying to stop our fighting and it is heartbreaking
@saywhatnow? Please, please, pretty please talk to an attorney. You have options, it doesn't necessarily have to be just stay or go. I don't know where you're located, but if it's in the U.S., there should be a legal aid that can get you started and recommend an attorney.
And, I'm so sorry you're in this situation. It sucks.
@saywhatnow? The mother of my fiance's child is like that. Nobody outside that house would ever have guessed how bad it was. He left only when he became convinced that his son would be better off with separated parents than with such an unhappy family.
It's been hard for him - she still flares up sometimes and says or does the most hurtful thing she can think of. At least now this child has one happy parent, whom he sees two nights a week, and who models the kind of household that we hope this little boy will grow up to make for himself.
Custody threats are really scary. I'm so sorry someone's saying such things to you. For what it's worth, it sounds *nuts* to me that a man who has barely cared for his child so far could *quit his job* and expect to be awarded full custody of a toddler. I can't imagine the court that would think that was a good idea.
Oh dear, my heart goes out to you. Good luck!
@saywhatnow?: two things - (1) talk to a family law attorney as soon as possible. Most courts strongly favor awarding primary custody of the child to the parent who has historically been the child's primary care provider, and that is you. His threats, like almost all threats, are emotional and ignorant. You need professional advice from a seasoned family law attorney.
(2) ask yourself how guilty and emotionally damaged you would feel if you discovered that your mother led a miserable, unhappy, fearful life because of you. Because she didn't want to break up your family. Then ponder what your son will learn about being emotionally responsible and accountable to his SO after growing up around your marriage.
You desperately need competent legal advice. Desperately.
@karion Yes! I came back to say this exactly!
@saywhatnow? Dear god, this broke my heart.
First of all, you owe it to your child to get out. Why? Because if you have a boy, he will learn to be just like his father, and if you have a girl, she will grow up to seek a husband just like her father. Do not give your child a life of misery as an inheritance out of a misplaced sense of guilt.
I get what people are saying when they say “get a lawyer” but I also get how overwhelming that thought can be when you’re a stay at home mom with no income and no legal references. Do this: google “custody laws in my state” and confirm what your rights are. (and clear your cache afterwards if you want to stay on the down low while you figure out what to do) In most states, mothers automatically get full custody.
That’s right, he is very likely threatening you with something that he has no power and no authority to do. So do your research and know your rights. Don’t ever take what he tells you at face value, his misinformation is just another way to control you through fear.
Also and equally important; research what it takes to LOSE custody; him being a high earner or being willing to quit that high-earning job (and provide for the kid how?) is irrelevant. What matters is what YOU do. If you do drugs (and don’t have a license for marijuana) stop at once. Never drive drunk, do not engage in drama with others, keep your nose so clean it whistles. If you need meds for mental health reasons, stay on them, stay current with the therapist. Do not let him (or anyone else) provoke you into a physical attack.
Basically, the best way to lose your child is to get arrested. So avoid all levels of drama at all cost. Move out and stay with family or your friends, file your legal paperwork for custody/divorce, dust off that resume, and just do what you gotta do, mama.
Bottom line is; you deserve better and so does your child. Do not succumb to despair because you think you are helpless; that is a LIE. You are NEVER helpless.
I wish you all the luck in the world.
@saywhatnow? No, no, no. This is an incredibly common threat used by (usually abusive) spouses. A friend of mine's ex-husband used it all the time, even though he was 1,000 miles away from home 4 days a week for work, and had *never* stayed home with the kids. I don't know if he'd ever changed a diaper in his life. But she was convinced he could do it because all the other bad things in their relationship had laid the foundation for that type of self-doubt, and maybe that's happened with you, too?
Real talk: It's my understanding that in general, courts almost never award full legal custody to one parent, and when they do, it's because the other parent doesn't care, and/or is a fucking basketcase. Joint legal custody is the norm, meaning that both parents have equal rights of access to the child, and have equal say in making childrearing decisions.
For example, my son's dad and I were never married, and never even lived together. For most of my son's life, my son and I have lived more than 1,200 miles away from his dad, and as a result, his dad generally spent maybe 3-4 weeks a year total with him. Nevertheless, I have joint legal custody with my son's father (who, it should be said, is a wonderful person), and had I chosen for some reason to fight for sole legal custody, I probably would have lost. There's no way a judge would award your husband sole legal custody.
Physical custody is different -- that refers to the daily care of a child, and where the child lives. But again, unless there's a significant reason why a parent's access to a child should be limited, the most likely outcome when both parents seek physical custody (if it's not unstable and disruptive for the kid) is joint physical custody -- alternating weeks, etc. The younger a child is, the greater the tendency for a court to have the child spend more time with the primary caregiver. (To continue with the example, I have sole physical custody of my son.)
Also, absent a compelling reason, parents generally can't take a kid and move far away, if he's threatening that. In those situations, the court will usually tell the parent who wants to move, "go ahead, but your child is staying here with the other parent."
Please, talk to a family law attorney. Ask your local or state bar association for some referrals, ask friends and acquaintances for recommendations, then call those places and ask how much they'd charge for a consultation. Shop around.
Disclaimer: I'm an attorney, but aside from some pro bono work, I've never practiced family law. This is in no way legal advice!
@Lemonnier awesome comment, thank you for clarifying the difference between physical and legal custody for "saywhatnow?". I was ignorant of all that -- I've never been in the rodeo myself as I am very well matched in all levels of "awfulness" with my husband/baby daddy... but I've seen some cah-razy shit in the last year or two as friends and acquaintances broke up and went to War over their young kids, and the best things I can think to tell her are to know her rights and not let herself be cowed by this guy into thinking she doesn't have any.
@saywhatnow?
You wouldn't be doing anything bad to your son! HE'S the one who's sucking in his son's life, making home an uncomfortable place, never being around, upsetting his mom. YOU'RE the one who has the power to change that dynamic and he would just pee himself if he knew you knew! He'd pee right down his leg and into his dumb fancy shoes. And then what. Lots of embarrassment and he'd get sent to business class.
It's way better to have one happy parent than two sad ones. (And then one happy parent and her sexy partner, and then two happy parents, if you so desire.) Don't let him convince you otherwise!!
@saywhatnow? Many web browsers nowadays have easy ways of switching into a mode that doesn't leave any history on your computer. Some people call this "porn mode" because a lot of folks use it to search for porn :) But it could also be very useful here! On google chrome, you can open an "incognito window," and I think on Safari and maybe Firefox too it's just called "Private Browsing". Check that out for worry-free googling of attorneys and such.
@saywhatnow? What everyone in this thread has said, but especially @Lemonnier. I work in a family law practice, and the "I'll take the kids/I'll take all the money/I'll ruin you" bomb crosses my desk at least twice a day. 'Tisn't how the law works, but a lot of manipulative, controlling tyrants lob these bombs at their spouses to keep them firmly mired in self-doubt, fear and confusion.
Getting yourself happy rather than just resigning yourself to another sixteen or so years of what you describe would serve your son so much better than having his unhappy family "intact". Mad hugs to you. <3
@katz I second this. I wish my parents had separated - maybe then my dad wouldn't have gotten so depressed he committed suicide. At the very least, my sister and I would have had another house to escape to. I see this with my partner's kids, they were little when they separated, and I think spent a lot of their childhood feeling bad about it and wishing their parents were still together. Now that they're getting older though, they see the crap their mother pulls (I am totally unbiased, obviously...) and are thankful that they have somewhere else to go, and a sane happy parent to talk about it with. Again, I would much rather have had the emotional trauma of divorced parents than the emotional trauma of living in that battleground and growing up jumpy and scared about everything. I really don't mean to add to your burden of guilt, I just want to give you my perspective and say that you have more options than you think you do, and you are not the one ruining everything. Making decisions that allow YOU to be happy and sane and whole need to be a priority too, if only so you can model for your child. If your son was in your situation, what would you tell him to do?
I totally understand about the two-sided person. My mother was like that. When I was a teenager someone else let me know that they saw through her, it was like opening a door into a whole new world. Let me tell you that if it goes to the courts, or lawyers, etc, they are totally used to seeing those people and they are much more ready to believe you than your friends and family, who like to believe that everyone is nice all the time, are. You are not alone in your reality, and you deserve a better one.
@saywhatnow? No advice that other people haven't already given you (and that's been excellent advice), so I'm just jumping on the bandwagon: do what you gotta do to get happy. It's the best thing for you and your kid. Fuck that guy. Stand up for yourself.
@saywhatnow? what state? email me at my whole name squished together at gmail dot com.
@Craftastrophies I'm so sorry that happened to you.
@Alexander Thanks :) It's fine now, but man. I am for people avoiding fucking each other over, emotionally.
This is going directly into my "boys are stupid" folder that I have promised myself I will look at as soon as the next "are we having a thing" inevitably turns me in to a ball of insecurity. NOT WORTH IT NOT WORTH IT NOT WORTH IT.
This article is good advice. I think me and my hubby work partly because we are both awesome and partly because we are both awful in companionable ways!
I have never seen relationships make people happier - if you are unhappy alone, you will still be unhappy in the perfect relationship. Hopefully your soul mate doesn't mind hanging out with an unhappy person. And good luck getting someone else to make your bed. But maybe you will happen to meet someone who LOVES making other people's beds.
aw lw2 wherever you are, my heart goes out to you
seriously i just want to give you a big hug. i think it must be insanely hard not only to be in the situation you're in with your relationship, but to receive SO MUCH outpouring of sympathy/advice/everything.
what I would do is go for a long walk. I think this all begins to amount to a lot of pressure from a lot of strangers and that is probably confusing and sad in its own way. just know that a lot of us have been and/or are still recovering from a very similar situation to what you've described and having been in that place it's very very very hard to watch other people struggle through it.
Plus when you dump someone awful, later on you get to say charitable things about "He's just very deliberate" and then, when pressed, demur, but then finally give in and say, "Well he still lives with his mother and has rather difficult friends and his hobbies are a titch risible" and feel very generous and smug, just like a wonderful queen, and everybody knows how kind and generous you are to say such nice things about someone who was so clearly beneath you and THAT, friends, calls for a sip of cranberry because congratulations! This has been a Tip from a Pro.
Yes. A million times yes. I had a relationship that I ended a little over a year ago. The warning signs were all there way before then, but I blazed happily through them, because, as every Rom Com tells us, Love Is Worth It. ALWAYS.
Anyways. After 2 years together, with only one of them having been good, I found myself, at 20 years old, living with a drug addict who only cared for me enough to come home to our shared house for roughly fifteen hours total a week. He made me feel stupid, unsupportive, and like a bad girlfriend. I decided that I was stupid, unsupportive, and a bad girlfriend. I bent over backwards to be better. I remained unworthy.
I finally got out of it, but only after attempting to break up and ending up in bed with him. In the end, getting out of it took me moving all of my stuff out, writing him a note and a check for 2 months rent.
Then I started seeing him again 2 months later. He swore he had changed. He hadn't. It took me another two months to realize this. He threatened to make my life a living hell if I returned to our college town in the fall. He got a new girlfriend and threw her in my face. He pretended to want to be friendly exes and used that to pull me into their drama.
Finally, 1.2 years after the initial breakup, 7 months after the second breakup, and 3 months after last contact, I am healing. I still care way too much about his relationship status, and had to block him and his new gf on facebook to keep from stalking. I still shy away from relationships, cause they scare the crap out of me, and I still cry when I think about this. But now I'm crying because I'm mad/sad at my wasted time. I'm crying for that 20 year old who had to choose between a broken heart or a broken spirit, not for that 20 year old who lost a dude she really liked. I have a as-healthy-as-they-ever-are quasi relationship going on with a guy who is deeply flawed, but also deeply honest, I am independent, I am more confident, and I know I can survive.
My favorite piece of advice I received is "Sometimes you have to be brave enough to break your own heart."
Also best reply when people ask about you and your man-cancer: "He's a great guy, just not for me"
P.S. Sorry for unloading, Hairpin. It's been a long week and his new gf has been antagonizing me in class lately. Also, according to most of my friends, I am at the stage where I should be 100% over it and they don't want to talk about it. So this was half to give advice to hopefully help someone else, and half to let myself cry for myself, and let myself just talk.
It's ok if no one reads this entire thing.
P.P.S. Adopting a puppy from the humane shelter is the best "congrats on being single" present you can give yourself. Mine is a 65 lb ball of fur who suddenly becomes ferocious when I'm home alone and someone he doesn't know is outside. It made the transition to living alone about ten times better.
@The Kendragon The Hairpin was built for rants like this. Good for you for finally knowing that this dude was all sorts of trouble. And the new girl just sounds like she's Mean Girling you, which, yeah, makes sense. (I saw a great quote on Twitter: "Your punishment for treating me this way is the next girl you'll date." AND I LAUGHED)
Also, the dog sounds adorable.
@Rookie I got sick of her yesterday and told her if she "accidentally" elbowed me on the stairs one more time I would seriously yank her lip ring out. Classy? No. Do I care? No.
He's pretty awesome. currently rocking a hot pink bandanna and laying across the foot of my bed.
@Rookie and THANK YOU. :)
For both the support of rants and the quote. It is most definitely laugh-worthy.
@The Kendragon kick this girl's ass if you have to, even though I don't condone violence.
@Rookie I don't usually either. I won't hit her first, but I might swing back. Which is unusual for me.
@The Kendragon Good for you! I don't understand people like her. She's got the guy, why the hell is she harassing you?? I'd actually call her on it, like "If you've got the time to be a creepy-ass stalker bitch, maybe you should consider getting a hobby. Or are you just pissed that I'm safely away now, and you're punishing me because you're stuck with his shit?"
As I'm getting older, I'm really seeing the truth in the old saw "This too shall pass." You're going to be awesome.
@TheCheesemanCometh @TheKendragon "Or are you just pissed that I'm safely away now, and you're punishing me because you're stuck with his shit?" It's either that or there's some part of her that knows she's probably not much more than a tool for his revenge and that his mind is on (being vindictive toward) you probably more than it is on (being good to) her.
As for being angry and upset at yourself for wasting your time and letting yourself be treated so badly, I know exactly how that feels. Two years later I'm only now learning to stop giving myself shit for that. You get a lot from going through that, though. You learn that you didn't have as much self-respect as you thought and what it really means to have it. You start to learn what kind of treatment is and isn't worth your time and energy. It's an ongoing process, but leaving the bastard and taking on the healing process is a huge step toward setting yourself up for something better.
@GoToaster That is the one thing that has kept me civil for so long. It can't be easy for her to know that he was still texting me while dating her. Now that there is some time between it, I feel awful for replying, and understand why she doesn't like me. But I feel like three months of total radio silence should mean that we can just sort of purposely ignore each other in public? (She's also very young, only 19, so she is probably still pretty insecure. I know there are some together, smart, confident 19 year olds, but they are few and far between.)
@The Kendragon
He might have told her some untruths about you continuing to contact him! It's possible she is being mislead, but it sucks that you have to deal with the consequences. I don't know how much an honest chitchat would accomplish except making her feel even more excruciatingly dumb when she breaks up with him.
Congrats with the flawed but honest person, they are SO my favorite, and the protective puppy. That's a wonderful gift to yourself, to give someone else support and love and a fresh start in their life!
PS: We will ALWAYS hear you talk about your breakup. No worries.
@Inkcrafter Thanks.
I am just going to purposely ignore her unless it gets to the point where I can't.
Well... flawed and honest and I are more just kinda friends who have no monogamous obligation other than using protection with other people and not getting romantic with each other. (We are both graduating and moving within a year.) We hang out and cook for each other, have awesome sex, text each other a couple times a day, and cut a rug on occasion. No one who actually knows about it really gets it, but it's pretty perfect for me. I feel like I'm breaking some rule by being ok with this situation, and not wanting more, but I really don't.
@The Kendragon
I think I am having the same dynamic with such a person as you are having?
Maybe we are seeing each other??
And we both think the other is the flawed and honest one???
I agree with implied social pressure/discerning looks from friends that make you feel like you should be going for "more", but heck it's fulfilling and sexy, right? Right! You just keep on doing you, or her/him, or possibly me.
PS: I'll miss you when you graduate.
PPS: Nevermind I'll find someone like yooooou.
@Inkcrafter Your PS and PPS have me rolling on the floor.
That depends? Can you Texas-Two-Step like a champ? Cause if so, I'm really enjoying this non relationship and will happily keep doing you.
If not, cheers for disregarding social pressure and keep on keeping on!
@The Kendragon
I have eHow'd "Texas Two-Step" and INTERESTINGLY it looks like a formal version of mine and Flawed-n-Honest's "party dance". Either I'm making you buffalo chicken for dinner tonight, orrrr we need to hook up after graduation because we've already got the dance and dynamic all freakin' set up.
Or! Maybe noncommittal people like us just have an attraction to one step forward, one step back.
@Inkcrafter Huh maybe I am just regular two steppin' cause we do two steps back (for me, for him it's forward) and one step forward. With spins. Flips if we are drunk enough.
I LOVE buffalo chicken. We for sure need to hook up after graduation. I shall teach you to flip.
@Inkcrafter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVSxhhf0d1w
This. I will teach you all of this. But not to that song. TO A FASTER SONG!
@All:
Wow. Talk about timing. I logged onto my fb today for the first time in awhile and had a message from the F*cker.
I wish I hadn't deleted your number and have to pretend you weren't in my life. I miss being with someone who trusts me and I miss your friendship I really do. I guess this message is just me saying I hope your doing well.
I'm for two messages from the ex bf in one night, he decided he was a pirate I guess. I'm going to come out and just say it though that I hope you still have my number and will text me because I need a friend now. I know I ruined things with you but I'm begging that you can please contact me... You always were my best shrink.
First: The boy must have taken too many drugs. When I dated him he could string a proper sentence together.
Second: A pirate?
Third: Talk about crazy timing
Fourth: THE FUUCKKKKKKKKK??????????
@The Kendragon Seriously, though, who are these people?
@Rookie Northern New Mexican/Southern Colorado-an(?) rednecks.
I need to learn to fall for old fashioned country boys, not asshole hicks.
@The Kendragon I told him to call his mom. Or his dad. Or Charlie (a former mutual friend who is the best listener I've met.) I told him his contacting me was inappropriate, and not fair to Sonny. If that BITCH still bugs me, I'm gonna be so aggravated.
@The Kendragon DELETE DELETE DELETE DELETE EVERYTHING. Do not rise to his bait/attention-seeking!
I also do not condone violence, but that bitch with the lip ring and errant elbows is asking for it. Sometimes bullies don't stop their nonsense until they're taught a lesson; it doesn't have to be a physical lesson, but perhaps a loud, profane and humiliating tongue-lashing to put the fear of The Kendragon into her is in order. Just saying.
@LilyMarlene UGH I know. I should get a phone/computer that only lets me text/message certain people after my "get-a-grip" friend has approved said message. God I'm still an idiot when it comes to him.
I really really love how the fear of The Kendragon sounds. What would I even say to her though? That she needs to grow up? My chief argument was gonna be the haven't talked to him in forever thing, and I just SHOT myself in the damn foot over that one.
@The Kendragon The impression I get from your story is that you've been pretty passive in terms of wrongdoing; meaning, you've not sought his attention or affection, he's been the one all up in your business and not moving on with his life.
Trying to explain yourself to dickheads like Lip Ring is a waste of time. You are not her problem, her boyfriend is; she is being an illogical, childish dingbat and you don't owe her an explanation in the least. A fierce, yet simple "FUCK OFF YA [insert horrible word here]" the next time she tangles with you should do. And then breathe fire on her, because as a dragon you should have that superpower, right?
@LilyMarlene Sounds good.
YES. On that note, I would like to offer my services to the "Burn it with FIRRE" crew.
@The Kendragon
"Somebody better call his mamma!"
Okay, but seriously. Block him on facebook! Although the weepy dialogue is really amusing and makes you feel satisfied, blocking him will be so much more satisfying. And anyhow, we can make up weepy dialogue for you if you get bored and divebomb you with it on various threads. Like the real thing, minus his satisfaction!
On confronting his girlfriend, next time she elbows you, can you grab her elbow? Like, as it's touching you? Hold her there and tell her what's what.
@The Kendragon
Crazy! I found Jim Cornette actually talking about your ex on youtube. What are the odds?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bnsQa9lh3wU#!
@The Kendragon To that shrink comment, I would be like "that'll be $100/hour please"
@Megan Patterson@facebook I considered that.
@Inkcrafter That would be awesome. Random pinners channeling my ex at me all over. Or that would be terrifying. Haha that Youtube is so true. Lets all go out and drink heavily and dance.
Today: "I apologize for asking you to contact me. I'm sorry if I re aggrivated (sic) any feelings of yours that had healed by my selfishness. I don't want to hurt you anymore than I already have."
I sent one final text message. Then I deleted his number and blocked him.
"I don't think you could if you tried, honestly. Life's pretty good these days."
@The Kendragon APPLAUSE!! Life IS pretty good these days!!
@The Kendragon
Oh BURN!
@Rookie THat's what I'm saying! Graduation in view, awesome friends, man friend to snuggle when I get lonely, actually have money :)
well. SOME money. Enough to go out one night a week. And buy books I'll never have time to read...
May be the time is not good for you so be patient in such situation and then have some quality time and conversation.
couch cleaning ny
Somewhere out there is the girl who keeps flying out here to be with her "boyfriend," my new boss, who said he was single when I first met him and THEN remembered he had a gf, ulgh, he's a pig, girl, you must see this, my god you're using up all your vacation time to come out here and he's a boring, pompous, uneducated tool of a man from some flyover state and you know it too. I watched you walk off when he was still talking LOL. I've had him in HR twice now I know you can do better. Girl, go to Figi or something but Stop doing this loser.
@Myrtle Hey! Being from some "flyover state" isn't a bad thing. There are LOTS of driven, good people, with rock solid values from the flyover states!
I do agree that this man seems like a tool, but as a proud country girl, I take some offense that you state someone's origins as a major flaw.
The rest of your paragraph I can support wholeheartedly.
@Myrtle Flyover state resident here suggesting perhaps we could get the tool to move to a coast. Independent of the lassie in question, of course.
I think that, if you are in the 'dysfunctional relationship' scenario for whatever reason, taking the steps to break free of that scenario will positively benefit all your future relationships. Like once you've plucked up the courage and confidence to look at one relationship, say "this ain't working for me", and walk away... well, you've achieved a major thing in terms of valuing yourself as a person, and hopefully you bring that self-valuing attitude into subsequent relationships. (At least, it worked that way for me) :D
I think that, if you are in the 'dysfunctional relationship' scenario for whatever reason, taking the steps to break free of that scenario will positively benefit all your future relationships. Like once you've plucked up the courage and confidence to look at one relationship, say "this ain't working for me", and walk away... well, you've achieved a major thing in terms of valuing yourself as a person, and hopefully you bring that self-valuing attitude into subsequent relationships. (At least, it worked that way for me) :D
Oops, double post :O
Reason to be yourself: Because when you're with the right person, she (or he) will think that all those things about you are cute, instead of annoying. Or at least not a big deal. My girlfriend thinks that the fact that I never close drawers and steal covers is actually cute, and the fact that I leave hair in the shower is no big deal (though she'll ask me to clean it up please). Past gf's have thought those things were annoying / gross.
I think I will go do the dishes as a surprise for her. Bet she'd prefer that to flowers right now.
I was very proud of myself for breaking up with my boyfriend a couple weeks ago- maybe even pre-emptively. But I wanted to break my cycle of staying with someone wayyyyy past the relationship's prime. Being shaken in public twice because he didn't agree with my disagreement with him... even the beginnings of a pattern can't make up for all his other great qualities.
@phewthatwasclose Good for you! Being shaken in public (or in private, or anywhere, anytime, unless you are falling asleep during a really good part in the movie and you said you didn't want to miss it) - definitely not a preemptive strike against the man. Good job good job good job!
@phewthatwasclose Sounds like you bailed at just the right time.
Well done, you.
@phewthatwasclose That was definitely the right call, and your username is perfect!
@phewthatwasclose Yeah, good for you. No shaking.
I went through all the steps of recovering my password, just so I could say a few things! My grandmother (single mother/badass) lived alone for the last thirty years of her life and was the most happy, independent, awe-inspiring person I ever met. She was a second-wave feminist and refused to cook. Period. She wrote letters constantly, including one to Isaac Asimov, to which she got a really friendly response, but mostly to cousins still in Ireland and (we learned after she died) to my dad's high school girlfriend. She could strike up a conversation with anyone and then turn that into a friendship. It was totally cool. I've never seen someone more loved, but she was totally over having a live-in partner.
This book! Live Alone and Like it, by Marjorie Hillis http://www.amazon.com/Live-Alone-Like-Classic-Single/dp/1844081257
It was written in 1936 and has all sorts of awesome advice for being an awesome single lady who takes care of business. A lot of it has to do with what bedjackets you'll need to own (four! different! types!) but/plus it's full of cheeky unapologetic realtalk. [disclaimer: problematic for 1936-style racism and sexism, but taken with a whole canister of salt there are some definite gems]
@bananalise What is a bedjacket?
@Megan Patterson@facebook Sort of like a fancy bathrobe, basically. This book explains the importance of having a cozy warm one, a comfy warm-weather one, a nice fancy heavy one one to wear while "entertaining", and a super sexy light one, also for "entertaining".
@bananalise I could totally go for a crazy warm one. Do you think she would count snuggies? If they were in more fabulous patterns?
This is devastating and saddening and God I needed it. Thanks so much. I will be carrying this around with me for the next few months.
this is so good. and i feel like a terrible person saying this but i kind of wish the same advice and freedom of just leaving shit behind could apply to hurtful/frustrating family members. much as you love them, if they make you crazy, BAM. i just realized last week that basically the last eight or so years of my life, my parents/grandparents have just been this painful burden. i mean, i know it could technically apply, but i don't feel capable of it.
@truelove YES.
There's a lot of 'but they are your family!' or 'They love you, really!' Well, maybe they do, maybe they don't, but either way, loving someone doesn't stop you abusing or burdening them. Sometimes you have to protect yourself from the people who are meant to be the ones protecting you.
I still can't bring myself to dump my mother, but if she didn't have hard talons so far into the rest of my family (my dad's side) I would seriously consider it.
@truelove i cut my mother off about a year and a half ago, and yes it was hard. BUT (a huuugggeee BUT) my life is much better. every time i spoke to her i'd be in a funk for days, and holidays/birthdays i would get so depressed and unhappy just thinking abotu what she would or would not do. sometimes it's neccesary.
@LeafySeaDragon Yeah, I semi-cut my mother off a few years ago. I was having panic attacks when she called, and I realised how much better my life was when she wasn't in it. And that even the trauma of shutting her down was better than dealing with the fallout of her whims. I still see her, but rarely, and she knows that I will cut her off altogether if she pushes it, so she's much better behaved. I just wish I could completely disengage with her altogether, but I'm not quite there yet. Something to look forward to in the future???
I HAVE 'come out' to my cousins about how terrible she is. My aunts and uncles will never admit it, but at least I don't feel so alone.
@Craftastrophies it took me years to do it! but yes, you describe the feelings exactly! thankfully (?) pretty much everyone has cut her off because she is so impossible, so no reproachful family members for me. i'm sad for that, but toxic is toxic.
@LeafySeaDragon thank you so much all of you (can i include you all by just listing the strudel or whatever it is called in english by your names? i'm not savvy about these things)-- i guess the question to me is whether she's really being toxic or not, you know? we get along really well. its really just on the issue of religion/romance that she starts to freak out and get aauuuughh. though i guess that is the worst of it. from her perspective it makes sense that she goes nuts-- she needs to. to save my soul, etc. sucks big time.
@truelove Setting boundaries with family is so difficult. It's something I struggle with, but life is so much better since I started realizing that it was a possibility.
Also, the fact that "@" is called a strudel is the most delightful new thing I've learned in ages! I usually just call it an "at sign," which isn't very elegant.
@truelove OK, this entire post and thread has officially prevented me from getting anything done this morning, but this whole thing is amazing. Anyway, made the same realization myself a year or so ago, realizing the amount of work and the self-damage I was doing trying to be part of a family that wasn't there anymore and probably hadn't been for a decade. I still have issues about it (my fury at simple things like Olive Garden ads is really out of bounds, but "here you're family" ACK!) I keep things as much in balance as I can these days, but insofar as it helps to know you are not alone, and that there really doesn't have to be a lot of traditional bad-mommy-daddy blame, sometimes family relationships, like other relationships, just stop working, insofar as they ever did. Not sure if I'm making any sense.
@Vera Knoop it is called a strudel in hebrew? english is my first language but for some reason i don't know what it is in english.
i'm trying to set boundaries. trying to at least get the grounding within myself to recognize that i don't need to tell my mom everything and then bear the psycho consequences-- it just isn't really her business. i'm in my mid twenties and somehow feel like i missed out on some big stage of differentiation. she always needed me too much to let me go-- at least emotionally. they've given me such an amazing life but they just can't deal with certain personal choices etc. how do we build the walls though and still let some love through?
@Petit Prince also. FUCK YES re the ADVERTS! I don't want TV often but frequently when glimpsing such commercials in the gym i'll just start crying on the treadmill. the impact varying between "oh, god, why can't we just be ok, like that mom and daughter eating cheerios-- she's probably be ok accepting her views on interfaith dating" and "oh, god, one day that old mom is going to be dead, she's going to be dead and they need to tell each other they love each other and that is all that matters right now" and i call my mom on the treadmill and tell her i love her. because i do. even though she's crazy and lonely and sad and endlessly needy. but once the topic strays to who i may or may not be kissing shit gets dark. i keep trying to grow myself into a person that can do the boundaries, do the inner peace. but i guess i just want to run. off the treadmill? into the wild.
yeah. sorry. ramble. i should be writing papers right now.
bahhhh/
@truelove I feel like setting solid boundaries is harder - or at least harder for longer - than just (ha! 'just') cutting someone off. It takes WORK and it may never be 100% right. Remember, just because someone loves you, doesn't mean that they are acting towards you in a loving way. Sometimes they need help to know how to love and support you best, and that's real hard. Personally, I've been surprised how well a 'I don't want to talk about that with you', or similar, works. But YMMV - my mother is super passive aggressive, so you can trap her in her own tricks, and she doesn't know how to deal with a direct attack.
@Petit Prince I FEEL you about the ads. The father's day after my dad killed himself (sorry! It's fine now!) the mall near me had ads saying 'thanks, Dad!' Yeah. Thanks, Dad. THANKS A BUNCH. I'm usually ok with the mum stuff, but I get really cross when people use 'mother' as a stand in for 'comforting and accepting'. That is basically the opposite of my experience and man, it really hurts to have my nose rubbed in that, you know? I mean, I've made my peace with being a functional orphan, but that doesn't mean that I LIKE it. I've accepted that I can never ever have a trusting relationship with my mother, but that doesn't mean that I don't wish that I could. I do, I wish it a lot, I just know that nothing I can do can make that possible.
Basically, I wish there was more acknowledgement that mothers and fathers (and grandparents and cousins and sibling, and...) are people, too. Complicated people with problems and issues, who don't always fill their position in an appropriate way. It hurts the worst from my family, who see (some of) the shit my mum pulls but have a 'but she's your MOTHER' attitude. They're getting better, but it's very isolating. I've worked long and hard to get out from under the 'you are an ungrateful daughter who must be emotionally broken to be this way about your mother' thing. It hurts to be thrust back under it.
I did it! I ended it!
...but it hurts : {
@daylightspool @daylightspool Don't worry! If he was a drain, you did the right thing. And I'm guessing he was a drain, if the article rang so true to you that you took action. Keep busy and look after yourself, you'll be fine!
@daylightspool The hardest part is done ... yay, you! Hang in there.
And read what @batgirl says, a couple of comments down. Great advice.
@daylightspool It will get better! It hurts for a while! But then after the hurting is the part where you're way, way happier. I PROMISE YOU.
I finally registered after months of lurking to say that I drink cranberry juice out of a (plastic) wineglass while watching The Voice. I feel a little stalked? But in a good way.
I LOVE the radiator/drain saying. It puts my occasional worries about my relationship into perspective. Now I feel like he's a radiator that SOMETIMES leaks or makes weird clanging noises, but he's definitely not a drain. And now I want to go home and snuggle up to my radiator dude, hang some laundry on him, fiddle with his valves, etc.
@thechouxbrunette leaks & weird clanging and all, I think I will keep mine and not attempt to replace him with forced-air heat.
@thechouxbrunette That weird clanging might take awhile to get used to, but once you do it's strangely comforting.
I wish I had seen this 2.5 years ago when I was stuck in a terrible, emotionally abusive relationship. And to have this amazing chorus of people who are being endlessly supportive is unreal. I hope LW2 is reading this and taking it to heart.
And from my own personal experience I can tell her that when you leave, everything changes. It really, really does. You'll be sad of course, but you'll also be happy and content in ways that you weren't when you were in that relationship. Trust me. Get out and you'll be surprised by how much better your life can get and how quickly it can happen.
@batgirl Yes! It seems so hard at the time, but after you'll do it you'll ask yourself, "Why the heck did I wait so long?"
Whoa. How did you know I NEEDED to hear this today!??
Okay, I'm feeling like I need a little help here guys. I dumped a guy and went on vacation for 10 days, have since been back a week. Despite never speaking to me directly, he has been sterotypicalsouthamericanman-ing (anyone? anyone? it's a blend of romantic passive aggression, "meaningful" youtube videos, and sometimes-romantic pronouncements about women that are clearly directed at me) all over his facebook (did i mention that he's 9 years older than me, and that would be lame coming from someone my age?), including saying he might start coming to dance classes he knows i attend. I know I sound convinced, but I feel myself being pulled into the "maybe if i talk to him he'll just stop doing this, hmm he was wonderful when not being horrible" trap. Which is exactly what he wants. HALP! P.S. this city is so small that I WILL see him again oh god what do i do
@sunshinefiasco Seriously, block him on fbook. Don't let people (or yourself) tell you that's immature. Being blocked by my ex was probably the greatest thing that could have happened when we broke up. You don't need to see those sad things. You need to be SEPARATE. If you let yourself get pulled back in, you'll be so mad at yourself within a few weeks. Distract yourself like crazy with other people & activities. Have a buddy that you can call at any hour to talk you out of contacting him. Don't give up on yourself!
@sunshinefiasco Block him! Dooooo it!!
Hairpin, you never cease to amaze me. I have just spent the past couple of hours absorbing all this, and I really just want to Oscar-speech thank all of you.
I spent the past seven years with a courtesan-esque mentality trying to live up to the impossibly high standards my SO set for me and told me I "needed" to achieve. I did things I didn't like, quit doing things I DID like, and at the end got dumped for it anyways. Being myself didn't work, being someone else didn't work, I am now pondering my next move.
My youngest sister once told my (stayed married WAY THE HELL TOO LONG "for the kids") mother that she grew up in a single-parent family. Baby sis told me later that the look on Mom's face was awful, but she wasn't sorry she'd said it, because Mom needed to hear what effect that "for the kids" had on her actual kids. Absentee emotionally-crippled partners often make for absentee emotionally-crippled parents, people who are in coparenting relationships with these types! Do no do it to yourself "for the kids". Give them one happy parent if you can.
Every lady should print this article and hang it on their wall where they can see it every day! A year ago, I got out of a three-year relationship that had no business going past the 1-year mark. The last two years were daily fights, zero physical intimacy and ended up with both parties turning to recreational drugs and alcohol just to be able to put up with each other. The results? I gained 40lbs. Whee. Had I read that article, I would have cut that drain loose far sooner than I did.
Flash forward to a few months following said breakup where I meet a Knight in Shining Armour online. We hit it off immediately but things got way too involved way too fast. We imploded after 3 months but with his assurances that he really did care about me and loved me but he just couldn't be with me, I hung on for another 7 months. 7!!! But the sex was fantastic and coming off a 2-year dry spell, I may have wallowed in it... I rationalized all of his bad moods and negative attitudes as stress from work, stress from quitting smoking and maybe he was slightly depressed. He was like a lot of other guys on here who find the things you like are stupid or not worth his time, your favourite movie of all time STUPID, that actor you like, gay etc etc... Then I had a tonsillectomy and he was going to take care of me until a very convenient business trip came up, leaving me alone to fend for myself. That started waking me up a bit. After an unpleasant healing process and two weeks without eating much of anything, I dropped the last 20lbs I needed and I look smashing if I do say so myself. Long story shorter, he was independant to a fault and would find it totally ok to just disappear for weeks without a word or text, then call me up asking if I wanted to come over (ie: have sex). I got tired of this pattern and after a very stressful day at work yesterday coupled with an a-hole text from this guy and reading this article, I cut him off. My last text was telling him that I didn't need this in my life and that I wished him well. I deleted his numbers, his pictures and his texts. Well, this didn't fit into his little model of control, so he spent the night calling me and texting me. No joke, 35 calls, 19 texts (some vulgar and insulting, some apologetic) and several voicemails ranging from him pleading with me to pick up the phone to calling me every name under the sun to spinning things around so that all of this was MY fault entirely and he's just a nice guy trying be nice to me, he finally stopped. Once I get into work this morning, I'm printing this article and it stays beside my bed in case I feel weak and want to call him back. Thank you Hairpin, I can't believe how long it took me to find this website.
@MartyMouse Good for you! I'm sorry you had to have a tonsillectomy, but if that's what it took for you to realize you needed to get out of that relationship, it was worth it. What a juicebox. Definitely print out this article. It's fantastic! I wish I'd had it when I was in my last relationship.
To people who are still paying attention to this, I have a question: what can I do for a friend who is stuck in a terrible relationship and continually makes excuses as to why she can't get out? Currently, her issue is that she just lost her job and without him staying with her she can't cover the rent. I offered her a place on our couch (my roommate and I both believe that she needs to get the fuck out asap) but she says she doesn't want to lose her apartment, which she loves. She told me she had already packed his bags for him, she just needs to find a job and he's gone. I've heard this before. Maybe two months ago, they broke up because they were fighting constantly (fights that would turn physical) because he wouldn't leave her alone in her home. This was back when he had his own place in town -- he moved back to his parents' after they broke up. This lasted about three weeks, of course, even after he broke her finger and covered her walls with obscene writings (N is a whore/cunt/cocksucker, etc.) and drawings of dicks.
This guy fucking sucks, and is making me want to spend less time around a friend I used to value a lot, because she won't stop making excuses for him. Am I justified in cutting myself off from her until she comes to her senses?
@reneespark Justified, probably, but you sound as though maybe you don't really want to cut her off. She is on the business end of an abusive situation, and maybe what she needs right now is unswerving support--but within limits that you're comfortable with.
Could you sit down with her on neutral territory and explain (using "I" statements, to keep her [as much as possible] from getting defensive) how you're feeling? Like, "I feel uncomfortable telling another grown-ass adult how to live her life, and I feel sad that this is happening to you, and I will help you in any way that I can, but I just can't be around Juicebox Boyfriend because the way I see him treating you makes me unhappy"?