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Tuesday, February 14, 2012

443

Treating and Sitting and Smoking and Talking

There's no good way for me to say this without sounding like a bitch, so here: I want my boyfriend to pay for things. That's right, I said it. Our relationship is fairly new and things are going really well, but he keeps inviting me to dinner / lunch / drinks / coffee / whatever, picks me up and we go eat together and then he doesn't pay for me; just says "separate checks" and moves on. The first couple dates we went on, he paid.

I'm all for going dutch and paying for myself, but when he invites me to dinner I think that he should pay. I don't know how to bring this up to him without sounding... well, terrible and spoiled. I cook him dinner, surprise him with pizza, and bring beer over, so it's not like I never contribute. And it's not a monetary issue: we're in our last year of undergrad and he had an internship where he made a lot of money, and his parents give him money. I'm not saying this has to happen every day or anything, I just keep getting embarrassed because I'll be standing next to him in line to order and he totally blows me off and the cashier and people behind me look at me like an idiot, like "Ooh burn, girl. BURN."

Should I ask him if he's paying for me before we leave? Is he just doing this because we had "the talk" about a month ago and he's got me on lock so he doesn't feel like he has to woo me anymore? I am a girl, I love being wooed. WOO ME. So, A Dude, any advice that you have for me would be super.

This is somewhat about money, but it seems more like you just want him to be … thoughtful. Based on what you put in ALL CAPS, what you hate most is feeling humiliated, and what you want most is to be wooed. Him paying for stuff is shorthand for valuing you, and not paying means he’s taking you for granted. He’s being lazy and lame and thoughtless.

And unfortunately he’s not going to magically realize it and start paying. So it’s your job to speak up and say that when he invites you to something that costs money, you think it’d be super cool and nice and romantic and swell if he, you know, also picked up the bill. Heck, it’s possible he thinks it’s inappropriate and condescending to pay beyond the courtship phase, and you can’t expect him to read your mind. More likely, he’s not thinking AT ALL, but you still need to speak up and say what you want. Which is for him to spend some of those internship bucks on his awesome lady … shorthand for acknowledging that for you to be happy, he needs to keep some of that courtship fire burning.

Oh and if he had an INTERNSHIP that paid well, I’m guessing he’s in finance or banking or consulting. Couple that with the fact that his parents give him money, I’m willing to bet that he has no real sense of what it’s like to be strapped for cash. Again, he’s not really pondering what your situation is. There are two kinds of rich kids — those who know they’re rich and quietly cover more than their share, and those who that think money comes from a bottomless bag in the basement … and why wouldn’t everyone have an awesome bag like that in their basement? You know, between the wine cellar and that old marble bust of Grandpa. Sounds like you’ve got rich kid B.  So not only is he oblivious to the emotional effect of not treating you, he’s dim to the real financial effect. Uncool.

But you know this. You know he’s being lame. And I think the reason you’re confused is because you’re wondering if in 2012 are YOU also being lame for expecting the guy to pay more than you just because he’s a guy. Because admit it: part of you, even if you had just as much money as him, you want him to pay more. And is that douchey and antifeminist and selfish and shallow and hypocritical? I think no, it’s fine for you to want that. Because for you, him paying represents a type of thoughtfulness that is essential to your happiness in a relationship. You want him to WANT TO pay more. Because you are awesome and money is nothing compared to how awesome you are so why wouldn’t he pay? He should be turning his pockets inside out with longing. You’re not superficial; you’re SUPER.

Which brings us to the kicker: is he nice otherwise? Pause for a second and think about whether he’s taking you for granted in any other ways — ways that might be more basic and important than who picks up a check. Ways where if he were being considerate and not sucky, maybe you wouldn’t be thinking about money at all.

What do dudes really think of girls they're in a relationship with farting? Should she just never do this if she can help it? Is it a huge turn-off? One friend of mine, who has been in a relationship for five years, claims she has never once audibly farted in front of him. If she has to do it, she leaves the room! A friend of a friend, however, says that one day she had a conversation with her dude that went thusly:

Lady: "Did you get my love note?"

Confused dude: "What love note?"

Lady: *farts*

Dude: *hysterical laughter*

And they lived happily ever after, replying to each other's farts with "I love you,too!"

So, when your lady love lets one off, would you prefer she A) ignore it, B) say "oops, sorry" and not mention it further, or C) acknowledge it and make it hilarious? Is there a point in the relationship where it gets acceptable to fart openly, like the point where it's okay to get a little lazy about shaving? Or would it seem like a girl had "stopped trying"? I really could have boiled this question down to: farting. Thoughts?

First off, here is your plaque for Best Question Ever. Hang it in your fart closet.

I think this is an issue where people are just going to differ. Some dudes think any ladyfart is unladylike. Other dudes think any ladyfart is hilarious, because it is a fart, and therefore the best thing ever. And a rare few have a sexual fetish for women farting directly onto cakes. Google it (don’t).

So I can’t purport to speak for all dudes. But what I’d hope for everyone is that in your relationships — especially FIVE YEARS IN, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE — you can be yourself and feel comfortable. And that’s gonna mean farting. Farts needn’t be fully incorporated into your rapport, and certainly not your love life, but I’d worry that pretending to be a fartless human is like pretending you don’t have irrational fears, the occasional totally evil thought, or any imperfections at all — things that, when shared, bring to you close to someone’s real self. Think of where you try really hard not to fart: a staff meeting … church … a crowded airplane. Is that what you want your home to feel like?

To answer your question, I personally think B or C are fine. Ignoring the fart, if it’s obvious, is just weird. Making it hilarious is great, though that could eventually wear a bit thin. Acknowledging it and moving on? Points for maturity. I think the most annoying thing is a full-on, purposeful fart that goes un-commented. I dated a girl once who got to the point of letting them rip without any fanfare, and I found it a bit lazy.

I adore the “I love you, too” fart response. A dude friend of mine shared a similar story: One day after he and a lady had been dating for about three weeks, he said “I think we’re ready to take this to another level.” She got excited but also anxious. What did he mean? Being exclusive? Meeting parents? What? Of course you know what happened next. He ripped a huge fart. She paused and laughed her ass off. That could have, um, backfired on him big time. But it didn’t. They’re married.

Can a player change his stripes? There is a known player in the mix, he is a co-worker who works in a different department, so while we work together, he has to try really hard to come up with a reason to visit my department because the two departments are drastically unrelated. He has come knocking at my (metaphorical) door on several occasions in the last year, but I have always had my guard up around him and never answered his call. Recently though he got past the main gate of my defense system and has been lavishing me with attention, texting, calling, hiding little presents in my desk at the office, and has even shown himself to be a very stand up guy on more than one occasion now. Most recently he took really good care of me when I got way too drunk at an office party: he got me home safe and didn't molest me or try to get in my pants or my apartment! To the point where I'm thinking that maybe I misjudged him. He knows what I think of him and that I've purposely kept my distance, and he's doing his best to convince me that he is a "good guy."

My friends are divided: half say roll the dice, this guy is trying so hard (a lot of time has been invested at this point). The other half say DANGER! DANGER! Don't go there. Once a player always a player!!!

The rational side of me knows that we all want what we can't have, and as soon as he has me he'll move on like all players do. The irrational side of me wants The Dude to tell me that this guy is really into me and that I am the girl special enough to kill the player, because if the player was dead he would be a pretty good catch (smart, funny, driven, hot ... all the good stuff!). Help me Dude, am I being hunted like a Gazelle on the Savannah, or is this guy legit?

Yeah, there’s a decent chance he’s going to fuck you over, but I think it’s worth a shot — depending on a couple things. Before you go digging through kitchen drawers for your chastity belt key, I’d ask around and see if there’s any meaningful precedent on this dude. Sounds like you know ladies who got played by him. Anyone keep her guard up as long as you have? Was he an upright gentleman until bedding her, and then skedaddled? Unless there’s a pattern of him putting this much effort in and still ditching out, he deserves some cautious benefit of the doubt.

The older this guy is, the more worried I’d be. If he’s kind of young, he might just be waiting for the one. If he’s been playing around for 10 years and never gotten serious with someone, I’d say that’s a flag and it’s “kinda pink” (as my dad would say while running a red light).

Okay so: no bad precedent, he’s not super old, or if he is he’s at least had real relationships? Great. Go out with him. You say he knows you know his rep, but it may be worth laying down the law before you start dating. For example, “Hey dude, I know you’ve been a player, so why don’t you prove all my friends wrong who are screaming at me to run the other way?” Make it clear that doesn’t mean a promise of marriage on the first date, just that he’ll treat you with respect and actually communicate. If it starts getting serious and you’re worried he’s gonna split, ask him what’s different with you and all the girls he’s ditched? If he can’t point to something specific that’s working now that wasn’t before, I think your worries are warranted.

But let me stop and ask you a callous question. Namely, are you really so fucking delicate? You know the chance you’re taking with this guy, and you must be attracted to him or you wouldn’t be thinking about him at all. How hurt or surprised can you be if he does something TOTALLY PREDICTABLE and plays you? So go out with him. Have sex with him. In the long run, it’s probably not going to work out, either because he’s a player or for one of the other 46 reasons that most people shouldn’t be together. But you can’t know that by thinking about it hard or listening to the right friend or making him pinky swear to be true. You want a guarantee? Run away from this guy, fast. But there are no guarantees.

Okay so this is a pretty lame question but it's something that's been plaguing me. I recently started college, and twice in my less-than-two-months here I've had a guy invite me to smoke weed with him late at night. Just the two of us. The first time it happened we hung out at like 3 a.m. and then he asked if I wanted to come listen to records in his room for a while. Which we did. And that was ALL we did. The other time it happened, I was at a party and another guy who I have a class with and kind of know asked if I wanted to go smoke with him after we'd been talking for a little bit, but then he casually added that we'd have to trek back to his dorm to do so. And we went. And we just sat and talked and smoked. Neither of these guys were my close friends.

Am I crazy for thinking that I might be about to get some in these situations? If a guy invites me to smoke with him alone IN HIS ROOM in the middle of the night does he probably want to hook up? And if so, WHY AM I NOT GETTING ANY? And if not, that is, if they have no intention of attempting to get with me, why am I being invited!?!

Man, it sucks that it’s 1912 and the lady isn’t allowed to make the first move. Oh wait, it’s 2012 and totally fine for the lady to make a move! Sometimes required even, given how nicey-nice dudes are supposed to be, especially the liberal arts college freshman varietal of dude.

Can I say a something that is not true but educational to consider? Broadly speaking, there are two types of college guys: wimps and date rapists. The rare ones in between these poles are thoughtful, sure of what they want, and straightforward about requesting it. There are six of them spread across the nation’s campuses. I hope you meet one of them. One’s named Bryce and he goes to Vassar.

So yeah, false. But not that false.

Point is, there’s a decent chance these dudes wanted to make out with you but just didn’t make a move. When I was alone in a dorm room with a girl, what was the percent chance I wanted to get with her? Roughly 100. How often did it happen? Pretty much only when she made it abundantly clear that’s what she wanted too. In other words, that one time in October 1999.

It’s possible you’re just a cool lady who gives off a perpetual desire to smoke weed, and these dudes were only interested in sharing a joint while discussing Walter Benjamin and listening to Arcade Fire. But chances are they want to get with you and are just not making that clear. Human beings are engineered to be vague, because it protects us from emotional danger. Over-thinking, college-aged humans are particularly predisposed to vagueness, because every single day they learn a new word that allows them to communicate less clearly.

And here’s the other thing: you may not be looking in the, um, greenest pastures for hookups. The jury is out on whether weed is an aphrodisiac or total libido-killer but (rappers aside) I think it’s safe to say that the Venn diagrams of chronic-enthusiast and Cassanova don’t overlap so much. At the very least, stoners are not the most proactive people. So you’re dealing with a group who already don’t know how to express what they want, and adding in another layer of not really wanting to get off the couch to get it.

So, ball’s in your court. If you’re interested in these dudes you need to say it. If you can master asking for what you want, you’ll be at a huge advantage over all the mumblers, wonderers, and hopers in your age group. You’ll be a superhero among mortals. Like: “Do you know Lindsey?,” asks a young man in Brueger Hall, 2nd floor. “Yeah,” another replies, wide-eyed. “I was there when she said that sentence. You know … the one where she said exactly what she meant.”

Next time one of them offers to smoke you up, say “Sure, but are we going to make out this time?” Fortune favors the bold, young stoner.

OK, last thing. I ran your question by a much more blunt friend and he asked this:

“Is she hot?” Do with that what you will.

Previously: Four Men and a Chest.

A Dude is one of several rotating dudes who know everything. Do you have any questions for A Dude? (300 word max, please.)

Photo by v.s.anandhakrishna, via Shutterstock.



443 Comments / Post A Comment

February Revolution

I was totally writing off LW #1 right up until this: "I'll be standing next to him in line to order and he totally blows me off..."

Dude, seriously? This gesture kind of says "Oh no, she's not WITH me. This is just some girl standing in line behind me."

I feel like paying separately at the cashier actually reads as "not a date." Like, you're not really there together, you just happen to be eating at the same time! That's not to say that he has to pay all the time, just that it is genuinely (a tiny bit) awkward. Maybe they could take turns treating each other or something.

ayo nicole

@February Revolution EXACTLY. It sounds like this is the kind of guy who walks five feet ahead of her, too.

realtalk

@February Revolution yeah, me and my bf take turns paying for coffee, dinner, etc. That said, he's still a little bit blind when it comes to being thoughtful and doing nice things for me, and I've had to lay down some pretty heavy-handed hints about more wooing. but you gotta tell them when they're doing something wrong and give them a chance to fix it! BASICALLY THOUGH if they don't shape up after a couple of conversations about it, they're probably not going to.

MissMushkila

@February Revolution I am a major fan of taking turns treating one another once in a relationship. Separate checks seem unromantic? Like, to me the idea of a date is someone should be treating someone else.

Judith Slutler

@February Revolution Seriously, taking turns is the best.

redheaded&crazy

@MissMushkila I agree, separate checks are super unromantic. I think maybe this girl should invite dude out one time, pay for the whole dinner herself, and use that as an opportunity to say that this is a more romantic thing to do. and I think a question of relative finances is important to consider. like maybe she could pay for coffee dates and desserts, and he pays for the more expensive dinner things.

everybody likes to be treated is what I'm sayin (although it sounds like she feels that she is pulling her weight in that regard true)

thebestjasmine

@February Revolution Yeah, that's totally a blowoff. I mean, I go to movies with boys when it's not a date and they pay for me (and vice versa sometimes) because hello, we're together. You buy my drinks sometimes, I buy yours sometimes. That's not cool.

cuminafterall

@February Revolution Oh yes. Taking turns. Although oddly enough, we actually split the check down the middle on anniversaries and Valentine's Day-- but it's because the fancy dinner is each person's gift to the other, not because it's each of us for ourselves.

H.E. Ladypants

@MissMushkila Yeah, this exactly.

Heck, even in a LTR I really sort of enjoy the feeling of a credit card being pulled out or a bill being paid, without even breaking conversation to discuss it. There's this little signal of "yes, for this transaction, we are a unit" that I relish.

one cow.

@redheadedandcrazy My ex once insisted that even though we were splitting the bill for our semi-fancy anniversary dinner, HE should pay at the restaurant & I should GIVE HIM THE CASH LATER. Whhhhyyyyy am I a human.

MALLROY

@ayo nicole Oh my gosh. My college roommate had a boyfriend who walked in front of her all the time, to the point where sometimes I would see him but not her until a good 5 seconds later (which is a lot in walking time). I had no idea this was a Thing.

MerelyGoodExpectations

@February Revolution Yeah, there's something about asking for separate checks that suggests a desire to have everything in a relationship neatly squared away, such that one could leave at any time.

WaityKatie

@February Revolution And this gives me another opportunity to insert a Tale of Online Dating! My most recent online date, when I met him at the bar, was already sitting down with a drink (away from the actual bar area). I asked, "Do we get our drinks at the bar?" He responded, "Yes. We do. And by 'we' I mean 'you.' You get your drink at the bar." Awesome timez!

AniaGosia

@thebestjasmine yes, this is what I do with my regular non-romantic friends too - its the thing to do, right?

werewolfbarmitzvah

@February Revolution Yeah, the issue for LW1 is not about money; it's about respect. What is with these worthless guys of our generation (I severely hesitate to call them "men") that it would so upset the balance of the universe for them to acknowledge that they are on a DATE? Hell, even with friends, a lot of times we pay for each other! In the first few dates with a guy, here's how the general script should go when the bill comes:

Her: (makes gesture of pulling out wallet)
Him: Oh, no! Allow me!
Her: Really, are you sure?
Him: Of course! (pays)

And then once you enter full relationship mode, you take turns paying, unless he's some sort of boundless geyser of money for whatever reason. But splitting the check is unacceptable under almost all circumstances. If he insists on separate checks every time, that's a silent message of, "We're not together." It shows immaturity, bad manners, and above all, a profound lack of respect. Tell him so, and if he gives you some weasely line about feminism connoting separate checks for everybody, dump him and then maybe send him a Youtube link to that Cosby Show episode where Claire rips Sondra's boyfriend Elvin a new one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW5zIV5pmRc

alannaofdoom

@WaityKatie REALLY?! I hope you made the sad "wah-wahhh" horns sound and walked out without looking back. That is... remarkable.

PistolPackinMama

@WaityKatie I think that might actually count as THE ONLY time I've heard a tale of online dating where there wasn't a threatening feeling but there was still MERIT TO TURNING ON ONE'S HEEL AND GOING.

"That was a crappy way to say you want this date to be Dutch. I am fine with buying my own drinks, but not fine with being sneered at. Nice to meet you."

** exeunt with bears and alarums**

dotcommie

@werewolfbarmitzvah wow, so many hard and fast RULES about relatively small issues.

LMac

@February Revolution My ex-boyfriend was an actor (as am I), and he would pay for our meals with his credit card, write "business dinner with LMac" on his receipts and then ask for my share in cash. So not only was he not paying for me, he was calling our dates "meetings" so he could deduct them come tax time, using the excuse that we had "talked about theatre." A MODERN-DAY PRINCE CHARMING.

lalaland

@February Revolution So glad I'm not alone. First boyfriend in high school - he was not well-off and my parents gave me an allowance, so we'd go to dinner and sometimes (often?) I would give him cash and then...he would pay for the check. AGHH WHY???

Alixana

@PistolPackinMama BEARS AND ALARUMS. Everyone's life needs more bears and alarums.

WaityKatie

@PistolPackinMama He actually apologized for it after I came back from the bar (with my drink, purchased by me). But the damage was kind of done? I always wish I had the self-possession to turn on my heels and leave when people do things like that, but I usually just freeze with a dazed smile on my face, eyes darting side to side.

laurel

@WaityKatie I used to freeze up like that. Now I automatically laugh kinda really loud?

Xanthophyllippa

@WaityKatie I hope you set him on fire using cheap vodka as lighter fluid.

miwome

@Alixana Right?! I loved that.

Annnd @MerelyGoodExpectations there's something about asking for separate checks that suggests a desire to have everything in a relationship neatly squared away, such that one could leave at any time. THIS IS SO TRUE. There's a whole chapter in David Graeber's Posted on February 14, 2012 at 6:48 pm

anniemac

@February Revolution Yep, I felt the same way. One strategy nether LW#1 nor A Dude ever suggest: what if she pays the bill one time? Like, just grabs the bill and pays (even in a cheap-ish lunch or coffee situation). Then maybe he'll get the hint, like "oh, maybe i should pick up the bill sometime." This is how the bf and I do it. We take turns picking up the bill, and it's sort of understood that since he makes decent money and I'm finishing grad school, it's fine if I end up picking up one lunch date for every three fancy dinners he buys. It's the thought that counts.

Craftastrophies

@lalaland My partner and I sometimes do this, where one person pays and the other pays back. But we basically negotiate every meal/event out separately. Sometimes he pays, sometimes I do, sometimes we split it. I'm super thingy about this - I don't like it if he pays for too many things, I feel needy and not independent, and like I can't then have an opinion about where we go, etc. But it's also nice to be treated, so I make sure I treat him and then I don't feel weird when he treats me. He has more disposable income atm, so I probably get the drinks and he gets dinner, that kind of thing. Sometimes what happens is that he shouts, then I realise I'm uncomfortable with it, and give him some money back. It works for us, but it is more effort beforehand.

Also, I'd like to point out that she is bringing beer and pizza, and cooking meals, so there ARE times where she's treating him. Not to the same things, but there are instances where she pays entirely for a whole meal and experience. It doesn't say if he returns this favour. But given the apparent disparity of their incomes, they definitely need to talk about it. If she is cooking him meals and he is not cooking her meals, OR paying for her meals out, that is a big warning to me that he isn't interested in real reciprocity - or maybe he just hasn't noticed. Either way, this is not about boy/girl, it's about human/human and income/income.

Chesty LaRue

@Craftastrophies Any news?????

lue
lue

@February Revolution
Yes, turns! Mr. and I always do this. I pay far more often, because I work full time and he is a student, but it used to be the other way. I like to say that I'm his sugar mama, and he just earnestly thanks me for treating(!). When we were pretty poor and just started dating, though, we would split checks, because we didn't go out often, and a $20 meal was a lot for an 'I'll get the next one.'

Craftastrophies

@Chesty LaRue I didn't get it, there was an internal candidate. But they've asked me to apply for another job there that's being advertised next week. http://thehairpin.com/2012/02/four-men-and-a-chest#comment-214683 I'm moderately disappointed, but feeling pretty good about it in general. Trying to find time/work up the guts to call for feedback.

Thanks for asking :)

Chesty LaRue

@Craftastrophies Make sure you find the time to make that call! It will show them you're really serious about the new position, and you'll get some good feedback about how you did and what the new job is. Sounds like an awesome place to work with good people, you'll get it figured out.

H.E. Ladypants

@werewolfbarmitzvah Wow. I cannot imagine expecting anyone to buy me things simply because of my sex. Honestly, this is totally beyond me.

Emily Eileen@twitter

@WaityKatie And then you bought yourself a shot and then walked out, right?

werewolfbarmitzvah

@H.E. Ladypants Except that it's not really about gender, and as I mentioned above, it's not really about money either. I would say the same thing would apply for a gay couple: in those first couple of dates, it's just decent behavior for the instigator of the date to pay. No one should be obligated to pay for every date every time unless they happen to be simply rolling in the dough and insist upon paying each time, but trading off who pays each time at least acknowledges that this is a dating situation, not some cold business transaction that needs to be split down to the dime. One person (whether it's the woman or the man) laying their debit card down on the table and saying "I got this" imples, "We are together as a unit right now, and I'm comfortable in making that evident." Carefully splitting it up - one person got that $5 Corona, one person got those $4 onion rings, how much do we each put in for tip? - has a very "never the twain shall meet" impersonal quality to it, like, "Oh, no, we're not dating; we're just sleeping together." What I'm trying to get at is that the kind of person who wants to keep your lives so separate that you each pay your own check every time you go somewhere, is the kind of person who after a year of dating still hasn't told their parents that you exist.

I'm Not Rufus

@werewolfbarmitzvah The reasons why you and I prefer taking turns to splitting checks is that it expresses solidarity/relationship-ness and, frankly, it's just less of a hassle. However, I'm not sold that LW actually wants to take turns. Like, there is no mention in her letter that she has ever paid for him at a restaurant, which seems like kind of a forehead-smack obvious first step if she wants a "taking turns" situation, especially given that (POINT THAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO HAVE MISSED) he paid for her initially when they went out. If she wants to take turns, she should invite him to dinner and pay for him! If she doesn't do that, it looks to him like his choices are between always splitting the bill and always paying, and I can definitely understand why he would be miffed by the prospect of the latter.

H.E. Ladypants

@werewolfbarmitzvah Sorry, your comment made it sound very much like the dude was expected to foot the first several dates, which I am very much not on board with.

I'm all for paying for each other and taking people out but the sexes of the people involved really shouldn't be the deciding factor in how that goes.

Slapfight

@WaityKatie Ayeayeaye. I've gone on a few of those online dates. Jeez. IF you ask someone out, at least buy the first round. It's not hard. I'll get the next one.
I went out with a European dude once who ORDERED FOR ME WITHOUT EVEN CONSULTING ME (which I of course informed him after that it wasn't cool) and when the bill came, I ended up paying my share. After ordering me food I wouldn't have chosen.
Vegetarians eat more than portobello mushrooms!
I've veered off topic again.
Anyway, LW1's dude is not being cool. She shouldn't be passive aggressive about it. Just say "Hey-can we take turns paying for dinner? It's super awkward and makes me feel bad when we have to split it all the time. Financially, this will work out."

dotcommie

@werewolfbarmitzvah I just think you're reading waaay more into money than it actually says--like someone said, some people don't use money to communicate. Sometimes splitting the bill just means "I can't afford to take the whole hit this time." Your last sentence is patently false in my situation, as my boyfriend and I sometimes split checks and we've been together for 6 years and I am very close to his family. It doesn't mean anything about the "kind of person" I am or he is. It's just that he's in grad school and I don't make a ton of money--nothing more, nothing less.

Killerpants

I guess splitting checks isn't unromantic for me. I've been with my bf for 3 years, and most of the time when we go out to eat we both just use our cards and split it down the middle. It's easier than remembering who paid last time, and each of us signing a slip doesn't feel like a hassle for us. The dinner is romantic if we have fun and laugh and eat good good and have good convo and enjoy each others company, not if one or the other puts down all the cash for the experience. Sometimes one or the other of us will say "I want to get dinner tonight" though, and that's always nice. I would find it troublesome if neither of us ever offered to pay for the other, but I certainly don't expect him to offer to do it as a way of woo'ing me. It's just a nice thing to do for the person you love, no matter their gender vs your gender.

I also don't understand the concept of a guy on hetero dates having to pay until it's officially A Relationship. Why? I would be so weirded out if a guy insisted on that. That seems like such an old-fashioned expectation. Whoever asks out the first date can offer to pay for said date, because that's nice. From there on out you just have to figure shit out. It's not that hard.

WaityKatie

@Slapfight I didn't even remotely expect him to buy me any drinks at all, but having him blurt that out as the first thing he says to me when I walk in the door was a little...off putting...

I always pay my own way on these things and it actually makes me really uncomfortable when the dudes insist on paying, but alternating buying rounds seems like the normal thing to do. At least get off your butt and go to the bar and get me a drink, and I will give you money? I don't know.

As an aside, I have noticed that all guys who insist on paying for me NEVER ask me out for a second date, what's up with that? It's like they are paying to be rid of me.

Slapfight

@WaityKatie I can understand that. I didn't mean to say you should expect anything, but I do. If someone asks, I expect them to at least buy a round, and then I buy the next. Even if the date's lame, you can always get through 2 drinks, and no one feels they're "owed" anything. It's not even date specific, really. My friends are all pretty fluid in treating each other at this point.
Anyway, sorry that date of yours was so awkward about it. Way to get off on the wrong foot, buddy. Yikes.

whateverlolawants

@February Revolution I agree. My boyfriend and I go back and forth on treating each other, ever since the first date (he got drinks at Bar #1, I got the food at Bar #2.) Sometimes we split the tab, too. Sometimes I think we silently take into consideration who has more money/just got paid, but mostly it's just to show appreciation for each other and to "be a unit." It's the most natural system I've used in a relationship.

whereismyrobot

@werewolfbarmitzvah The best part of the first clip is where Claire pronounces "weekend" like the Dowager Countess at :50.

DrFeelGood

@laurel heh. I do the laughing thing too... It took my partner a long time to realize that my loud laughing can be "zOMG I'm extremely uncomfortable right now".

miwome

@miwome Ugh, oy, that comment got destroyed by html. Anyway, if anybody's still reading, my point was that in the book he talks about how debt is like social glue, and we willingly carry around minor debts to one another as a way of confirming that we are connected. Any relationship where each is perfectly paid up to the other and it's all square is transactional, and a lot easier to walk away from.

It's a cool book! There's a lot more in it than that.

Craftastrophies

@miwome This is why my family always makes you take leftovers in the good tupperware. Because then you have to come back with it.

meliz

@February Revolution sweet jesus i miss that show.

Better to Eat You With

@Craftastrophies Once in college I dated a guy who came from money. I did not come from money. Any time he paid for anything, he made a big show of it, but when I contributed, it was no big deal to him. Ditto presents. Later he admitted that he was afraid I was a gold-digger and made a point of not buying me nice things just to see if I would still stay with him. I did, but only for a year.

beatrix

Its beautiful@l

Reginal T. Squirge

"Can a player change his stripes?"

You may have heard of this one dude. His name is Jay-Z.

spoondisaster

@ReginalTSquirge@twitter Or that other dude! Tucker Max! Oh.

Reginal T. Squirge

@spoondisaster Good one. I'm just saying, though, if the same dude who uttered the coldest shit ever said on record ("Shit, I/ Pause for nothin'/ Ya'll be frontin'/ Me give my heart to a woman?/ Not for nothin'/ Never happen/ I'll be forever mackin'") can turn into the Jay-Z of today, there is hope for all.

Lucienne

@ReginalTSquirge@twitter "That dangerous but too commonly received notion, that a reformed rake makes the best husband."

City_Dater

@ReginalTSquirge@twitter

You do know that song lyrics aren't a personal manifesto, that very often people write in the "voice" of a "character"?

Reginal T. Squirge

@City_Dater True, true. But when the artist prides himself on his lyrical authenticity and also states his dating style over and over again, over the course of years, maybe he's not exaggerating that much?

Then again, Ice Cube has been murdering on-record for years and has probably never actually killed anybody.

spoondisaster

@ReginalTSquirge@twitter You are right! There is hope! But personally I would not go near Tucker Max with a ten foot pole, reformed or not.

Reginal T. Squirge

Let me also point to everyone that the chances of someone being a player and turning into modern-day Jay-Z are about as good as the chances of someone being a rapper and turning into modern-day Jay-Z.

Highly unlikely, but not impossible. So tread lightly, LW!

Brunhilde

@ReginalTSquirge@twitter: I once shot a man in Reno for no real reason. Just to watch him die. Took longer than I thought it would. Kind of boring. Left to get a drink at one point, came back, still alive. Should have shot him twice now that I think about it.

Mingus_Thurber

@Brunhilde I wish I could like this multiple times, then twine roses around it, then buff it up until it's all sparkly. Instead, I'll just use it without attribution and people will keep thinking I'm hilarious.

Ham Snadwich

@ReginalTSquirge@twitter - I think Ice Cube's job prior to NWA was architectural draftsman. But, you know, gangsta architectural draftsman.

parallel-lines

Speaking of "lazy and lame and thoughtless", can we talk about some dudes who are fucking FAILING at Valentine's Day today. Because I hear you LW1, oh do I ever hear you...

cuminafterall

@parallel-lines If my dude leaves work before 8 PM, I'll consider it a romantic gesture.

cuminafterall

@cuminafterall Oof that comes off bad. I am just steamed because I told him I wanted flowers (because silently expecting and resenting when he doesn't deliver is not my thing) and he said he can't get me flowers because "then it wouldn't be a surprise." BOYS.

parallel-lines

@cuminafterall JUST BUY SOME STINKING FLOWERS, IT'S NOT THAT HARD!

punkahontas

@parallel-lines Mine got a stomach bug and now we can't have cheese fondue for dinner per tradition. Not his fault, but still not a great valentine's day.

Dorothea

@parallel-lines mine cancelled visit last minute, so instead of romance weekend i just had a feminist potluck and worked on a memo. it's okay i guess.

Megasus

@cuminafterall Why do they not understand that a woman needs to be CONTINUALLY WOOED or she will lose interest/feel unappreciated/never want to have sex with you? It's not even hard. Just be thoughtful!

Megasus

@Megan Patterson@facebook Clarification: it does not even have to cost money!

Blackwatch Plaid

@cuminafterall I had thought my Dude had had flowers delivered to my house. Then I read the card and saw they were from my mom. So, thanks mom! (But Dude, it's time to get on that- you can't let yourself be outdone by my mother.)

lalaland

@parallel-lines The worst, the worst worst worst is that I don't even care that much about Valentine's Day, and I said as much (and it's true!). But how much more awesome would it be if he completely disregarded my sentiments and got me something anyway??? But no.

parallel-lines

@glittercock My mom used to send me flowers when I was in high school and every year when I got that note I would get so psyched up and pray this was the year that the cute dude in band realized how much he liked me too, and then I'd open the note and it'd say, "You are a great young lady and I'm proud of you! Mom" and I'd cry. Plus, kids are so mean and I got so much shit about getting flowers from my mom.

realtalk

@parallel-lines yeah mine was like "can we have valentine's a day early so I can be there" and then 1. i bought his plane ticket 2. he didn't even give me a card. liiiiiiiiiiiiike step it up. i need to be wooed, especially because long distance is hard and I hate it and he's the one who doesn't want to move.

parallel-lines

@Megan Patterson@facebook YES! God YES!!! Like, I would die over a handmade card. But no.

leonstj

@parallel-lines - mine is a shot of bourbon i will be buying myself at an east village dive bar!

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

Dude available for emergency valentines day good times, southern california area. Accepted payment methods: Cash, Card, makeouts

Chesty LaRue

@Too Much Internet Damn, if only I were ~1500 miles closer. Or you were.

cuminafterall

@parallel-lines HE BOUGHT THE STINKING FLOWERS!!! And it WAS a surprise. Now I feel like a real juicebox for complaining about him on the Internet. But... they are so pretty!

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

@Too Much Internet: BAH I should've said 'cash, cards, kissing'. Better alliteration.

Porn Peddler

@glittercock I'll one-up you. My mom sometimes sends me flowers on Valentine's day and today I was awakened from a nap by the doorbell ringing. Mind you, there is only one obvius door to my house, which contains three apartments (thanks for that design, zoning) and the postman leaves everything on my porch and everyone fucking knocks on my door rah rah. So when I flew out of bed, very alarmed, and saw flowers, for my address mind you (my apartment has a completely different address than the ones above mine) I brought them inside, unpacked them and cut the stems without a second thought, assuming they were from my mom. And then I thought "these don't look like something my mom would pick out" and took a better look at the address....MY LANDLORD'S WIFE, BUT MY STREET ADDRESS. AUUUUUUGH!

Apocalypstick

@parallel-lines I wouldn't mind if we hadn't a) talked about what we were going to do three weeks in advance (he says: we'll make dinner together) b) confirmed that decision two days in advance (he says: yes, I'll go buy the food, don't you think about it) and c) I gave him his present (which cost actual money and was something he'd wanted for a while -fancy booze) in the morning and he *said the words* "I'll get you something when I go out".

He spent the day out, 10-7, with two 2-hour breaks (uni schedule is weird). He returned with no present at all (which is fine, I wasn't expecting anything until he said he'd get one) to play Arkham Asylum all evening. At half ten I asked what his plans for dinner were, was told he'd "had a big lunch", and made my own damn dinner alone and did homework. How romantic. We didn't even have sex because we'd done it last night and he has a low libido.

I never thought I'd care about all this crap, but this is the first Valentine's I've spent in a relationship that wasn't long-distance and our relationship has a constant problem with him making an effort. I can't even talk to him about it because (apart from risking coming across as crazy psycho girl) one of his oldest friends is coming to stay for the next few days and it'd be so awkward to be having problems.

Boo hoo my life is so hard, an otherwise lovely bf is v forgetful.

oeditrix

@parallel-lines In 6th grade I left a bag of valentine's candy in my 8th-grade sister's locker. I was super excited to be going to the same school, so I snuck around and I found out her locker combo and everything. My biggest mistake was putting "Your Secret Admirer" on the card. Of course she crowed about it all day long and then suffered the incredible humiliation of finding out in front of all her friends that it was her dumbass sister. I seriously just wanted her to feel special, but WOW I have never failed so hard. She hated me for a week.

Slapfight

@Apocalypstick Aw man! That sucks. Definitely tell him hwo you feel!

Apocalypstick

@Slapfight All is well, twas just a grump. Turns out he actually had used one of his breaks to make me some cute relationship-vouchers, just forgot to give them until thismorning. I figure the point of V-day -of any holiday, actually- is not any particular gift or act, but showing you've put 5 minutes thought into your partner and what makes them happy, so that's what counts.

hairspin

This made me laauugh: Namely, are you really so fucking delicate?

Chesty LaRue

@hairspin Seriously! She knows the risk she may be taking, just go for it or don't.

skyslang

@hairspin So true! She's jumping ahead, projecting that she'll fall in love with him and he'll leave her. But you know, she might fuck him and decide that SHE doesn't like HIM. You know, ladies can get caught up in the courtship ritual, too, and mistake their excitement for lasting feelings...

chevyvan

@hairspin I loved that too. It kinda made me want to kiss A Dude on the mouth. Call me, Dude!

I have a friend who I am tempted to say these very words to. She is as sweet as pie but gets her heart...the heart of a true romantic...broken over the most basic dating bullshit that everyone has to deal with. Don't get me wrong, I get angry and I cry over the same bullshit, but at least I'm trying. It's like, just go out with a boy already!!

SarahDances

How many times in a relationship have I ever split a check? Never. Literally, NEVER. Either one of us pays or the other one does, and in a frequency roughly proportionate to our incomes.

It's financially fair, and makes both parties feel appreciated. Oh, and no matter what, when the other one does pay, make a point of thanking them. Nobody likes to feel taken for granted.

@SarahDances I'm gay, and sometimes I wish that could just happen. I get it, we're supposed to be all about equality or whatever, but ... I find splitting the check on a date to be awful AWFUL awful.

It seems like there are some lesbians who do this (swoon) and some who do not (I don't date them).

parallel-lines

@SarahDances But what if you're the one making more money and paying more? It gets to be tiring--I always end up paying for more expensive excursions and if we want to do something fancy, I have to foot the bill and I gotta be honest, that kernel of antiquated gender-enforcement doesn't love it.

To clarify -- I like the every-other-date approach.

Judith Slutler

@parallel-lines Really? I felt like such an awesome high roller when I was working and my boyfriend was in college, and I could just invite him out to movies and nice restaurants and be like, "I'll get that".

bitzyboozer

@SarahDances I've been in a relationship for a long time now and, aside from the early courtship days, we have pretty much always split checks, unless one of us is particularly flush, or conversely super broke, for some reason. It's never really been an issue and I don't see what is so objectionable about it. Different folks, different strokes, I guess.

SarahDances

@parallel-lines That was my last relationship - I was the one paying for all the expensive things. It didn't bother me, but naturally, ymmv. And when I did start to resent it, it was at the end, when it became more about everything else not working with the relationship.

I always said, "If this is the price I pay for the pleasure of your company, then I'm happy to do it." So when I was no longer happy to do it, that was my first clue to get out. Just my personal experience.

@bitzyboozer If that works for you, awesome! I was just offering it as a financially comparable alternative to the check-splitting that LW1 objects to. Either gets you to more or less the same place, financially.

Jinxie

@Emmanuelle Cunt That's how I felt when my ex and I were together. (Depending on how many hours he was able to pull at work) I made 2 to 3 times more than he did and I loved it. I'd experienced being dependent on a partner for financial support and said (jerky) partner totally took advantage of the situation to his benefit and my detriment. I never want to feel trapped like that again, so being the main breadwinner felt amazing. That said, current beau makes about the same as I do and I'm learning that financial equality is pretty rad.

dtowngirl

@S. Elizabeth I agree--splitting the check is extremely not romantic. At the beginning of the relationship, I like the she-who-asks-pays rule. Or, every other date. Just no splitting people.

@dtowngirl Or one I that worked out for me once was me cooking and paying for that, and her paying for going out. Because I'm a damn good cook, it worked out.

thebestjasmine

@SarahDances Yes, I was once the one making way more money, and I was fine with paying like 80% of the time. Because I wanted to go out to nice places, and I wanted to go with him, and I knew he couldn't afford it, so he would pay for after dinner drinks or whatever. I literally can't think of a time that we split a check, maybe other than the first time we went out. Even when it was in the early stages, we went back and forth with picking it up.

CleverPseudonym

@S. Elizabeth I'm a big fan of the "(s)he who asks, pays" approach.

bookfreak

@SarahDances The anti-splitting sentiment is surprising to me too. I've been with my boyfriend for over a year and we usually split the check approximately according to what we ordered. We'll treat each other when there's a birthday or we're celebrating something, but for everyday outings we each pay our own share and I never thought to do it another way.

Xanthophyllippa

@S. Elizabeth Yes! This is why we need to live in the same place - so we can go every-others on dinner and cooking.

Craftastrophies

@thebestjasmine With my ex, if I wanted to do something, I had to pay for it. This was fine in theory, but it was not fine when we couldn't do something because I had no money, but he always had money to buy weed. It was more about him lying/not caring as much about our shared experience as about his own than the money. By that point, I resented it, so we never did anything.

With my current partner, there have been times both ways. If I want to do something, and I want his company, I am happy to pay for both of us. And if he feels the same way I am a grown up and swallow my feelings of having to be absolutely independent all the time, because I want to do fun things with him.

But basically, money is tricky and emotive and personal. Maybe LW1's boy just got out of a relationship where they always split, and he thinks that's the way it always is.

slutberry

"OK, last thing. I ran your question by a much more blunt friend and he asked this:

“Is she hot?” Do with that what you will."

A Dude. A DUDE. SERIOUSLY. This is a college freshman, okay? SHE DOES NOT NEED TO HEAR THAT. She is probably already picking herself apart going, "Why do these boys not want to make out with me? Am I not hot enough?" I know this is your "blunter friend", but jeez, filter a little, willya? Not helpful!

To quote Mr. Knightley: Badly done, A Dude! Badly done!

martinipie

@teffodee sighhhh...Knightley > Darcy anyone?

julia

@teffodee One million percent agree. That did not need to be added. The Dude was doing pretty well up until that point.

slutberry

@martinipie yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

slutberry

@julia meh, I'm not so keen on this A Dude. He sounds a bit like a nicer frat boy.

gobblegirl

@martinipie Captain Wentworth 4 lyfe.

martinipie

@gobblegirl Was also about to namecheck him, yes I was! Oh men of Austenland...

wilarseny

@teffodee As a dude (and, occasionally, A Dude), I really responded against a lot of things in this one. Definitely that part; definitely everything for LW#1; DEFINITELY this segment:

"...sometimes required even, given how nicey-nice dudes are supposed to be, especially the liberal arts college freshman varietal of dude. Can I say a something that is not true but educational to consider? Broadly speaking, there are two types of college guys: wimps and date rapists."

It is so totally hard to be a "nice guy", right, guys?! We're so oppressed!

leastimportantperson

@wilarseny Yeah. Always nice to hear that if a man is being sexually hesitant around a woman, it's because he's too nice to rape you.

H.E. Ladypants

@gobblegirl YES. Clearly the best.

slutberry

@wilarseny Okay, very glad I am not just knee-jerk reacting. But I get so confused when people say things like that. I am in university, and the majority of guys I know are really, really nice, educated, kind, talented guys. Maybe that's because I didn't know anyone until we were two years in and they magically transformed, but I doubt it.

slutberry

@leastimportantperson INORITE? Maybe he doesn't kiss til the third date! Geeeez!

leastimportantperson

@teffodee I mean, don't worry. It's not true or remotely original. Though I did appreciate it being paired with sneering contempt at a woman for maybe being "so fucking delicate" when it comes to the way men treat her. Yeah okay! Thanks, guy!

roadtrips

@wilarseny I missed the "against" and I was really confused for a moment. Anyway, yes, agree. And actually, in my experience vis-à-vis hanging out in dorm rooms with dudes late at night (accessing those dusty memories from my freshman year of college) - if pot was involved, we usually ended up talking, and talking, and talking. Sub that with booze and there you go - making out. So, perhaps it's not really an issue of "taking charge" or of the character of liberal arts students, but the substance? That would be my guess anyway.

annepersand

@gobblegirl You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope. Tell me that I am not too late, that such precious feelings are gone for ever.

Dorothea

@gobblegirl can i be weird here and say my favorite austen hero is henry from northanger abbey? i just like nice guys who dig weird girls!

cwmilton

@martinipie YES. I spent my best boy-crazy adolescent years reading and re-reading the last 50 pages of Emma. "You are silent... absolutely silent! At present, I ask no more." SWOON

Lucienne

@blahstudent He's my favorite too! He is all sarcastic and lit-loving and has a good relationship with his sister and he's so reasonable, oh man he's so amazing.

PistolPackinMama

@teffodee Yes. That made me feel really gross. And kind of sad. And gross.

Look, A Dude. I know people are douchebags, and so on. But what I make of that is... you are telling LW that her fear of being rejected b/c she's ugly is as important and more powerful than her willingness to take a risk?

That there is merit when someone would put lack of sexual interest in mean terms that imply she is presumptuous if she's not hot to think people might want to make out with her and it would be an insult to make a move if she isn't.

I pretty much cannot find a way to make that statement mean anything other than your blunt friend is a fucking juicebox, that if all men are secretly like this they are all fucking juiceboxes.

Also, if your blunt friend isn't smoking white hot by socially acceptable standards, he is also entitled and hypocritical fucking juicebox and doesn't deserve to get laid ever again.

Now I am so mad I am done with this A Dude for today and am going to put on lipstick and spend money at Target, which I need to do anyway, but thankfully it now is a nicer option than thinking about Juicebox friend.

PS: A Dude, if you just read this, you are welcome to tell your juicebox friend I said all of the above. He fucking terrible.

Dorothea

@Lucienne yes!!! why don't more people read northanger abbey? it is so funny and sweet and smart.

lizaboots

@wilarseny I signed in just to thumbs up you.

mecmec

@PistolPackinMama Right? I spent a good 3/4 of my college experience not getting laid and then agonizing over whether or not I was hot enough to make a move on a guy or if he would laugh/be disgusted. I concluded that I was a monster. Looking back now I'm like "I was cute enough for the nerds at my liberal arts school, what was my problem?" Asking 18 year old girls if they are attractive leads straight to a wormhole of self-doubt and craziness. Just try and make out with the guy, LW, and at worst you will be gently and sleepily rebuffed.

Craftastrophies

@leastimportantperson Or maybe you aren't hot enough to rape.

I mean, I take the point that young men might come across as timid because they don't want to come across as rapey, and those are the only options society gives us. But that was not the right way to put that.

Also, Captain Wentworth is a close second. Colonel Brandon is clearly where it's at, though.

chevyvan

@teffodee Good gravy, you guys. I didn't get any of the rape stuff or self-esteem killing stuff out of what A Dude said, and trust me...I'm very easily offended over that kinda crap. When he said he asked a much more "blunt" friend, I thought it was a pun. Like he asked his stoner friend and the stoner friend asked if she was hot b/c that's totally something that a stoner would say in response to the question. It was supposed to be a joke on the friend, not the LW. I think some of y'all might be projecting.

sam
sam

@teffodee Yeah...I'm pretty sure "you're probably too ugly to rape" was not the intention. I'd even go as far as to argue that the "blunt friend" framing points to "I don't necessarily approve this at all." (Caveat: I'm a dude who is not in the running for King of Nuance, so.)

As a dude, also, I'll say that making a first move is far, FAR easier said than done. It's not just the whole Rape Culture thing (not to be too dismissive of all that), it's also the chance of rejection; smoking in your dorm room with a cute girl you like is way better than smoking in your dorm room while doing your best Forever Alone impression.

AnalogMetronome

@wilarseny I was so confused by the whole "college guys are wusses or rapists" thing! I am in college RIGHT NOW and know plenty of guys who have had girlfriends/ladies they were "seeing"/hookups/whatever and were like, "hey, want to have sex?" and if the lady said no, they were cool with that and either moved on if it was a dealbreaker or waited for her to be ready. My own dear sweet boyfriend was 18 when we started dating and he did this exact same thing. He was pretty immature in other ways (emotional development, holy moses), but the asking-for-what-you-want-but-being-totally-cool-about-taking-no-for-an-answer-thing seemed to be a no-brainer. Do not know what sorts of dudes this A Dude hung out with in college.

That aside, his (slightly obscured) point about making a move on these seemingly semi-interested stoner guys is probably a good one. I mean, why not? At worst they will say no and then you will be exactly where you are right now, LW.

bocadelperro

@gobblegirl Yes. Persuasion is my favorite, too.

oeditrix

@Craftastrophies TEAM WENTWORTH

oeditrix

@leastimportantperson I just did a word search to find all your posts on this thread and I can safely say that you're my hero. Wait, you're not my best friend from grad school are you? Lubna, is that you?

oeditrix

@gobblegirl I love all her novels, but Persuasion feels like it was written yesterday, for me, by my best friend.

slutberry

@Craftastrophies COLONEL BRANDON. How could I forget? YES.

slutberry

@sam Whether or not A Dude condones it, he should not have said it. Eighteen year old girls are, in general, sinkholes of self-consciousness. Especially if it's a pun on stoner, that's dangerous-- this girl is concerned about stoners. Bringing it up at all was tactless and tasteless and I am unimpressed.

anachronistique

@blahstudent Northanger Abbey is my favorite because Catherine is so awkward and darling.

Craftastrophies

@oeditrix Persuasion used to be my favourite, but on the last rereading I found myself a bit off-put. Just by the general message of wilting ladyness and the best way to win your love being to be silent and put upon. Which is totally era appropriate, it just made me feel a bit weird that I hadn't seen it before. I still love all the characters beyond belief - have you seen the BBC telemovie, with Ciaran Hinds and Amanda Root? And Sophie Thompson as Mary? So perfect, and the whole thing has a clear, still feel to it, thanks to amazing cinematography, that completely encapsulates the way I feel when I read the book. The opening sequences alone are perfect and must-watch.

I would totally prefer Wentworth IRL, but guys. Guys. Colonel BRANDON. ALAN RICKMAN. I'm sorry, Alan Rickman is my sexy kryptonite.

oeditrix

@Craftastrophies I love the movie and I LOVE Amanda Root. It's my favorite Austen adaptation.

I didn't care for Persuasion when I was younger, but I re-read the novel in my early 30s after six years with no relationship, and found myself identifying pretty strongly with Anne Elliot. I had always been frustrated with her passivity, like you're saying, but when I taught the book I started seeing her kind of painful shyness as a result of trauma and not as her real personality. I like to think that now she's safe with Wentworth and out of that horrible house, she'll turn out more like Mrs. Croft. Now THAT is a relationship worth emulating! The only happy marriage in Austen.

(Also, just after teaching the book, I met up with an old friend who I had briefly dated 10 years before . . . and we started dating again and recently got married. True story. So yeah, biased.)

Craftastrophies

@oeditrix Awwww. I think it can maybe be my favourite again in the future. It was just such a shock to find a whole different, less positive side, that I didn't know was there. That's why I love Austen, but it was more about the me that used to read that book... if that makes any sense?

I like your reading of it - it's the same reason I like Amanda Root. You can see all the filtering and holding back she's doing. You can see the flicker of her sharp intelligence as she sums up all the things her family see, bites her tongue and smiles nicely. Actually, one of my favourite bits in the book is when she visits Mrs Smith - I like that she stands up to them, and I like the her that has been hinted at that we finally get to see.

I think the reason I liked the book when I was younger was that I really identified with that feeling of not having a place, or a safe way to be yourself. Which is why I say that it's era appropriate - her reality is that she HAS to be meek and mild and accomodating, that's just life. Now that I feel stronger in myself, it's jarring to go back and realise how much like that I was, and how unhappy it made me. Also, the alternate ending, where he has to go offer her the house? Perfect fodder for teenage hot-flush fantasies.

Aaaaw, your story! I love it.

oeditrix

@Craftastrophies Thanks! I love it too. :)

One more story you might appreciate: while I was teaching Persuasion, and immediately before I started dating my now-husband, I was trying to casually date this adjunct professor I worked with. The first time we slept together, he told me over breakfast that Austen was "just not a good writer." Seriously, we were in a diner and he asked me for recommendations for 3 (THREE) women to teach in his like Western canon survey course, and I said duh Austen-Eliot-Woolf (if you're going for my desert-island three), and he was like, "Well, I just don't think Jane Austen is a good writer."

Me: "You mean, you don't like her. That's fine, a lot of men don't." (HORRIBLE men, but whatever.)

Him: "No, she's just not very good. She's not a good writer. I stand by that."

And then I spent the rest of breakfast just choking on my rage. It was like being told that the sky is actually zebra-striped, or that monkeys are plants that grow out of the ground.

So then I met up with my husband and during our first date he was like, "Dudes who don't acknowledge disco as a serious genre are misogynistic, homophobic, and racist," I was all, MARRY ME! What a gem.

Craftastrophies

@oeditrix Oh man! The faces I involuntarily pulled all the way through reading that. JUST NOT A GOOD WRITER. Uuuuugh. I am spluttering many things, but you know them all. It's like men who say they 'just don't like listening to music with women's voices'. Well, you know what I JUST DON'T LIKE? Your face, that's what.

(Theirs, not yours, obvs.)

Man, I would love to take a class in Austen. There is just so much packed in there, I find something new every time. I must have read P&P about 20 times, and the last time I read it it was a whole different book. Your desert island will be fine, those books will be fresh forever.

Confession: The only Eliot I've read is Middlemarch. I'm stuck at the funeral because argh bad things are going to haaappppeeeen. I might be a little over invested, though. My literary cousins were once sitting around picking what literary character we'd all be, and it got to me and they all said 'Mary Garth' at the same time. If you smoosh Mary and Elinor from S&S together, that's me.

My first not-date with my partner, we watch 'How to lose a guy in 10 days' and de constructed it together, from a feminist, post-modern (sorry!) point of view. I Knew then.

Mrs Cruff

@teffodee Yeah I don't like the way A Dude puts this. But he does have a point. If I was back in college there is NO WAY I would invite a girl back to my dorm, alone, give her psychoactive drugs and then do ANYTHING (else?) pro-active to get her into bed. I don't think that makes me a wuss, just sensibly wary of the ability of weed to impair judgements and make regret brownies.

I did once spend a whole month pretending to pass out with my head very near a lady stoner friend I liked, presumably in the hope that she would think "oh what a charming slightly-green sleeping face, I must smother it with kisses!". Which doesn't really prove anything except that stoning and seduction do not mix. Although reader... I did marry her. Yay!

Bitterblue

@oeditrix My god yes, the Crofts! I fucking love them. I love that they exist. They're definitely up there on my list of Best Married Couples from Books Ever.

And that story -- WHAT. Just reading it makes me so angry I see colors outside the normal range of vision. Ultraviolet with rage, here.

parallel-lines

LW3, sleeping with coworkers usually ends badly (please, no "I met my honey at work" stories, you know what I'm talking about. Yes you do!) If and when this dude plays you, you'll get to see him and be very, very uncomfortable.

empathicalist

@parallel-lines Sometimes referred to as dipping your pen in company ink...

empathicalist

@parallel-lines Or, mixing honey with money...

empathicalist

@minijen Or, shitting where you eat. Your call.

Reginal T. Squirge

@minijen I never understood this metaphor. Which one is shitting and which is eating?

applestoapples

@ReginalTSquirge@twitter It has to do with dogs--they will not poop anywhere near their food source if they can help it.
The eating is the situation you are used to, the shitting is the thing that's going to fuck up your joint.

tee
tee

@parallel-lines They work in different departments... Doesn't sound like much of an issue to me.

parallel-lines

@tee I find I tend to have a way of running into those I want to see the least. This is increased exponentially at work...

Reginal T. Squirge

@applestoapples Who's the dog? I am the dog? I'm the dog.

empathicalist

@applestoapples got it in one. Just to be super-contrary (yeah contrariness!), I have to say all work-place fuck buddy situations I've ever been in have worked out well. Granted they were all restaurant/bar situations, and we know all know what those people are like...

applestoapples

@ReginalTSquirge@twitter Aren't we all the dogs, really?

@minijen I'd say that service/hospitality breaks all kinds of rules, especially on the "it's a bad idea to fuck coworkers" front.

raised amongst catalogs

@parallel-lines Seriously, did no one learn from Bridget Jones' Diary?

Megasus

@applestoapples Wait so people will poop all over where they eat? Like, all literal-like? Wait why am I even asking this, we used to poop all near our drinking water for like a million years before figuring out it was bad.

permanentbitchface

@applestoapples I agree wholeheartedly! Restaurant hookups/relationships are my preferred method! It's much less formal than a "professional" environment and the turnover is pretty high, so if things don't work out, they'll likely be gone in a few weeks! It's quite perfect, actually.
Everyone meet your next squeeze in a restaurant/bar!

dotcommie

Naw, I do think LW1 is kinda lame. I have a salaried (nonprofit) job and everything, but I’d never propose doing anything with my boyfriend if it automatically meant I had to pay for it. We’ve been together for 6 years and split pretty much everything. After a certain amount of time, I think it’s just impractical to have the invitee pay for the event, especially if one half of the relationship tends to be more proactive in planning outings and would therefore get stuck with the bill more often than not. I had paid internships (they really can’t pay THAT well, unless it is in finance or consulting) in college and my parents paid for living expenses, but my free income for “fun” like eating out was still super tight, so I wouldn’t assume he’s floating down money river unless you’re intimately familiar with his finances. I imagine others feel differently, though.

dotcommie

@dotcommie and by "split everything" i don't necessarily mean split the bill at the table, but after all is said and done, we roughly pay half of our communal expenses...i think LW1 is talking about him being chivalrous and paying the bill without expectation of being paid back, not taking turns paying the full bill.

jennfizz

@dotcommie: I'm totally with you here. If someone expected me to pay every time I invited them out, they would see me much less often. And the Dude was being casually stupid by suggesting that this doesn't have to do with gender. If a female LW wrote in saying that her boyfriend expected her to pay for everything, everyone here would be calling that guy a useless mooch.

gobblegirl

My last boyfriend removed the fart-worry very early on by farting in front of me all the time. And by in front of me, I mean “in bed right before we fell asleep.” And I would burst out laughing and ask if he had beans for lunch (always the culprit. But he liked beans, so!). This made any girl-toots I might emit pale in comparison.

raised amongst catalogs

@gobblegirl I never dated a guy who was an open-tooter, except one time this guy had IBS or something and he always had terrible gas pains. Although I never could bring myself to do it in front of him (or anyone, ever, seriously, even my family) I used to sit on his stomach for him to help him get it all out.
Then he cheated on me!

sox
sox

@vanillawaif Then that makes him the living WORST because I briefly dated a dude with IBS who refused to alter his diet and that is some NOXIOUS gas. Bless you, ya dang angel.

angelinha

@vanillawaif OH MY GOD. You are so nice.

Craftastrophies

@gobblegirl My current line is 'but I just want you to be WARM! I care about you!'

And then he tried to dutch oven me with my own fart. And I deserved it.

didgeridoo

@gobblegirl Can I just say the worst part of IBS is the fear of farting in front of man-friends? I follow the right diet and still...AWFUL gas. I love it when he farts in front of me (what is funnier that a fart?) but no way in hell would I subject him to mine.

Slapfight

@Craftastrophies I kind of love you.

tortietabbie

@Craftastrophies I feel like farts are a huge part of my relationship, haha. Sometimes we high five, sometimes we look at each other in horror, sometimes we band together against the true enemy: dog farts. Sometimes I fart during sex and start to giggle and he says, "it's ok! Focus honey!" and brings me back.

Farts forever, is what I'm saying.

martinipie

"discussing Walter Benjamin and listening to Arcade Fire" did you ask all my liberal-arts nonboyfriends their favorite activities? No, really.

annepersand

@martinipie Reading that question, I was so glad that I am at the point in my life where I no longer get upset about being a cliche and find it fucking hilarious instead.

elysian fields

@martinipie EWW SERIOUSLY. This gives me horrible, horrible flashbacks to college. Obsessing over guys (well, one in particular) who only wore black and studied German intellectual history. UGH UGH UGH

Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy)

@elysian fields I will see your German intellectual history scholar and raise you a francophone Agriculture major with a minor in boning everything female in sight except me. Ladies! Why do we pick such awful people in university sometimes??? I wasted years on that boy!

atipofthehat

I love getting past the main gate.

empathicalist

LW1 - Ask him out to dinner, and insist on paying. Stare straight at him and comment, mildly, that you wouldn't feel comfortable not paying, since you'd asked him out. Or something like that.

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

@minijen: Passive-aggression. 60% of the time, it works all the time.

Craftastrophies

@Too Much Internet Whatever, it WOULD work all the time if you were even paying attention. But that would probably indicate that you care about me, at all. Fine, I'll just sit here picking at my salad. That'll show you.

miwome

@Craftastrophies I'll just sit here in the dark.

ReginaSavage

Aw man, the farting. THE FARTING!

I dated a guy for three years and never once heard him fart! This bummed me out majorly because I think toilet humor is AWESOME.

My current dude is pretty amazing, and while we never really dated (went from casually boning at work to full blown relationship) we had the "fart moment". We were lying in bed post-coitus and out of nowhere he just lets the most massive fart rip. I immediately burst out laughing so hard that I eventually farted too. That was when we knew it was meant to be.

Not a single fart goes unaknowledged in our house. He even farts on me in his sleep and giggles about it. I'd get more mad but its just about the funniest thing ever!

slutberry

@ReginaSavage We had the fart moment before we started dating. I was talking with him and another friend about my dad being really, really sick; it was this tense, emotional moment, and suddenly he just let one RIPPP. There was this shocked moment of silence, and then we all fell over and rolled around on the floor laughing. The three of us have since become great friends.

chip_pan_fire

@ReginaSavage The farting!

When I was first dating my current dude (8 years ago, oh my), I was living with my sister. In our family, we all think loud farting followed by pathetic excuses are hilarious*, so boy was round at mine, and my sister let one rip, then I did, and we both went "dodgy floorboard there," or some equally rubbish comment. And then boy did, so it was clearly meant to be.

*my father would fart loudly after dinner every night and then claim it was the floorboards. Also, younger brother and lots of beans in the diet.

ReginaSavage

@chip_pan_fire I actually had a boss (who is also my dude's best friend) who would walk around our workplace and let huge farts rip and blame the floorboards. It was particularly funny because the place had a concret floor!

boysplz

@chip_pan_fire I'm a big fan of blaming the "California Barking Spiders" myself.They've even followed me to Texas after college!

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

@chip_pan_fire: 'loose concrete' is a favorite. Also, 'sounds like someone stepped on a duck.'

KDubb

@boysplz

My husband blames it on the barking spiders too. Or his recliner. We kept swearing that we'd replace it one day and when we finally did, what do you know, this one make that same strange noise too!

whizz_dumb

@boysplz Illinois had barking spiders when I lived there, but they were simply "barking spiders" because they are everywhere. Also, the geese are always flying south/north somehow.

zeytin

@whizz_dumb Hehe. My husband says "the ducks must be coming" after I fart.

Steph

@KDubb Mine always says "A frog did it!" And then I laugh a lot.

Inkling

@ReginaSavage
My best farting story is a queefing story, is that OKAY. I know we have standards on the fart thread but I need email updates here.
After sex with an ex (less endowed + doggy-style = fucking you with air, amirite) I flopped over and let out this huge flubbery queef. I had one second of surprised laughter when dude immediately cuts in and says "Oh, like you should be embarrassed by bodily functions, perfectly natural and etc." I don't know what the deal was but it seemed like he was defending me to an imaginary queef shamer? And then I immediately had to respond like "yep natural response to our clumsy sex-havings, ha ha, your semen must be carbonated," which felt way more awkward than before!
I can only assume his previous girlfriend had the same issue, but was more ashamed, and this ready-made argument rolled out automatically.

PS "Fart" is mentioned 95 times on this page. Great thread or greatest thread?

ReginaSavage

@Inkcrafter: Queefing is pretty fart-like and also akward and hillarious, so its OKAY BY ME!

Yes, I've had that happen too, and then when the dude pulled out I kind of felt like a balloon deflating. So akward but so funny! I like that the dude had a ready-to-go argument too, that's just awesome.

I think we need an open post just to talk about farts. That'd be pretty kick-ass.

Inkling

@ReginaSavage
Related: I went on a date yesterday night, in which I changed the Company portion of my contact info in the date's phone to Working For: Butts Incorporated. We are already planning another date? Butts, farts, etc, the great equalizers??

annepersand

Dudes! If you are ever hoping about having children with any lady you're with, you need to get over farting. Do you know what is way grosser than farting? Childbirth. And babies.

raised amongst catalogs

@annepersand My friend is one of the lucky moms who pooped in front of her husband while giving birth to their eleven pound baby. I bet he can handle the odd fart or two.

annepersand

@vanillawaif I am not super into farting! I will probably never ever ever look over at someone who just farted and say "good one, bro," or similar. But, you know, it happens. And we get over it, because it is a Social Contract, and also, pooping in front of your husband/partner when pushing a human being out of your vagina.

AniaGosia

@vanillawaif My baby was only 7lbs, but I did too! I actually gave birth on the toilet. But then, my dude and I are champion darters, even challenging each other sometimes.

cherrispryte

LW #1, pay for your own shit and get over yourself. You didn't say "I want my boyfriend to show he values me" or "I want my boyfriend to demonstrate that we're together when we're in public," you said you want him to pay for you. Why the hell should he do that? Presents are one thing, but all the damn time? Please.

martinipie

@cherrispryte I'm kind of inclined to agree with you, but I also agree with the Dude and also would add that we don't know every facet of their relationship. He may be making her feel devalued in other ways she doesn't know how to express or feels embarrassed to talk about. She also might be focusing on something that, face it, a lot of ladies have been told, over and over again, rightly or wrongly, is Something Boyfriends Should Do. You may not agree. I may not agree. But she's maybe been indoctrinated.

caddie

@cherrispryte She said they currently split the bill every time, and she'd like for him to pay occasionally. Plus she cooks and buys beer. I think she sounds totally reasonable.

MoonBat

@cherrispryte
I agree (though for once would have been less blunt about it), we really didn't get any other information to indicate that in any other way does he disown their relationship in public or exhibit any thoughtless behavior whatsoever. The poor guy may even think he's being a progressive, supportive boyfran by allowing her to publicly display her independence!

MrComment

@cherrispryte Agree. Some people don't use money to communicate. She's not entitled to his money and she doesn't know what he's doing with it or what his plans are for it. There's probably a compromise they can reach where their unspoken signals work better for each other, but I've always found the "buy me shit so I feel cared about" attitude to be a big turn-off.

stephanieboland

@cherrispryte Yup, get over it- I find overthinking this at all really tacky. I split with romantic partners or whatever the same way I split with friends- usually we just get our own stuff, but sometimes they might go 'I'll get the drinks and you can get the snacks later', or I'll go 'it's cool, I'll get this, go grab us a table', and if anyone tries to pay for me all the time I don't let them.

WaityKatie

@MrComment I picture the guy as a clueless trust fundy douche, and the girl as, well, someone who dates clueless trust fundy douches. Both use money to communicate. It's sometimes fun to observe their behavior in the wild (the bars in the Financial District). It was the WOO ME thing in regard to money that bothered me the most. That and the fact that she said "woo me" at all. Men are from HERE, and women are from OVER THERE...

frigwiggin

@WaityKatie Aww, not everybody who has a trust fund is a douche. :(

MrComment

@WaityKatie I mean, there's an etiquette to how and when to pay for things that can take a while to learn. I know it took me a long time. I don't really expect a college student to have mastered it. I'm sure this guy can do better, but her attitude seems to be "I soo deserve it because it would make me feel good."

Xanthophyllippa

@MrComment Some of that etiquette is in the language, too - "hey, wanna grab dinner?" is different than, "Would you like to go out to dinner tonight?" One sounds like a mutually agreed-upon hanging out, and the other sounds like it's an invitation, and that's how I'll set my expectations.

Same with my friends, too, now that I think about it - my friend who said, "hey, fill me in on your class over lunch?" yesterday startled me by picking up the check. I assumed we were splitting.

fabel

LW1: yeah, I know it's anti-feminist & backwards & blah blah etc. but that is unacceptable. He just says "separate checks" all the time? I don't even do that when I'm with my friends! There's always eye contact & have some kind of verbal exchange, like "Oh, wait, don't I owe you? I'll get it this time." Or "Can you put it on your card and I'll just give you cash?" Stuff like that. How does he not do this? How does he order in line ahead of you and not acknowledge how he's paying, or if he's going to be paying for you or not? That is just weird.

LW2: Yeah sorry, I never fart in front of anyone. Even writing this sentence is making me uncomfortable because it's admitting that I even..do. Likewise, if I'm dating a dude, I don't ever want to know he farts. If he does by accident, I want us both to ignore it. Seriously. Air just never comes out of asses, ever, okay?

LW3: Just fuck him.

LW4: I'm thinking these dudes just want a weed buddy. Sometimes it sucks to smoke weed all by yourself.

dotcommie

@fabel i guess i don't get the moral difference between asking for separate checks and giving someone cash for putting it on their card. i don't think it's weird at all, even though i don't generally do it. it's just practical, especially if no one has cash, etc

fabel

@dotcommie yeah, but she's making it sounds like he just turns to the waiter and says "Separate checks!" without ever acknowledging her? I feel like there should be some conferencing with that-- I do it sometimes, but it's always a group decision, and it sounds like he never includes her.

gobblegirl

@dotcommie It's the difference between "I'm not paying for you, only for me," and "We're paying for this together." All the difference! (Assuming he's requesting separate cheques without any discussion with her).

lue
lue

@gobblegirl Yes! You said it best, I think. Exactly!

applestoapples

I don't like to be cynical (who am I kidding, yes I do), but every story that has ever ended with, "He played me!" started with a variation of LW#3's story. Of COURSE he's being nice to you. You're the cute Persian kitty (or ragdoll or tuxedo, whatever your preferred breed), and he's the tomcat prowling at your door and bringing you dead lizards in hopes that he can catch you when you're in heat.

Molly, you in danger, girl. Either don't go there with him, or just (as the Dude suggests) dive in and steel yourself for the high odds that you'll be singing a Destiny's Child song about him one day.

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

@applestoapples: question re: lizards, is it best to leave the body without a head, or just the head with no body? Which is the better piece of tribute?

applestoapples

@Too Much Internet The body without the head. But I'd really go with the whole lizard and just let her decide which she likes best.

KDubb

@Too Much Internet Definitely make sure the body is there, especially the tail. Because if it's still wiggling, that indicates that it's really fresh and juicy.

Gophers are a different story--those should be heads only. Guts are too messy and who wants to have to clean up after getting a gift?

srs
srs

I don't know if this will be helpful to LW #1, but very early in our relationship, my boyfriend and I decided to take turns paying. So, I'll pay for dinner one night and then he'll pay for brunch later in the week. Occasionally one of us will take the other person out and we'll explicitly say that it is a treat and not part of our "turns", but for the most part, we trade off.

It works out really well because I feel that over time our contributions are roughly equal and there is no awkwardness about splitting the bill or who "should" be paying.

skyslang

@srs I love this! This is what my ex-bf and I did, and what I do with friends sometimes too. It's just about mutual respect and love, not about one person "wooing" the other.

liznieve

ahhhhhh ran down here to overshare. RE: farting... ummm, I always do in front of him, sometimes while spooning (I'm small spoon, so.)... and sometimes also when he's giving me oral? Eeeeee, but he knows it's a sign I'm relaxed and keeps on keeping on like the trooper he is. SORRY, HONEY! I LOVE YOU!

Megasus

@liznieve It totally happens! Apparently I fart really loudly in my sleep (though I did not hear this from an SO), so I can't really keep much of a lid on it anyway (thanks lactose intolerance and my love of cheese!). Also we laughed about it for like 20 minutes, and just thinking about it makes me laugh, so you know where I stand on these things, lol.

hallelujah

@liznieve THIS IS WHAT I WAS EMBARRASSED TO SAY DOWNTHREAD! The first time I farted in front of my dude was literally on his face because I came so hard. Not much to be embarrassed about after that! Luckily he took it as a point of pride, so it all worked out.

KDubb

@hallelujah

Oh....dying... gasp! ...can't..breathe...aha hahaha!!! That is too funny but also great--what a champ!

Megasus

@liznieve Oh my god I would probably laugh so hard that I would keep farting in his face!

Craftastrophies

@liznieve Haha, you guys, my boyfriend just sent me this link.

KDubb

@Craftastrophies
What the heck is she doing in that 4th pane? You're supposed to wave your hands behind your ass if you want to have even the slightest chance of disconnecting the fart smell. Though most people aren't fooled and assume whoever is the closest in proximity is the culprit.

ReginaSavage

@hallelujah That is pretty epic!

raised amongst catalogs

No farting, by anyone, ever.

fabel

@vanillawaif Agree

SheWhoReadsInSkirts

@vanillawaif ALLTHE FARTS

Beericle

@vanillawaif or talking about pooping. Why do people do this? I get it that you poop, I am sure you get it that I poop, but I really do not need to know or share any more than that. Stop it.

Gracefully and Grandly

@vanillawaif especially not coworkers who work next to you. every. single. day. stop it with your ppfffftsss(fart noise?)!!!!

Bittersweet

@SheWhoReadsInSkirts: Can't stop giggling over your comment. Whenever anyone in my house lets one, someone says, "Will we always laugh?" Because FARTS ARE HILARIOUS, YOU GUYS!

frigwiggin

@Bittersweet Oh my GOD my boyfriend ate something the other day and could NOT STOP FARTING that evening. Like, I almost went to sleep on the couch because they were so continuous and hideous. (He is also the kind of boyfriend who giggles when he farts in his sleep. Yes: while still asleep, the farts make him giggle. Love him.)

mascarasnake

@vanillawaif When I was little (like, three, four) I would apparently RUN FROM THE ROOM if I audibly farted. I wasn't a delicate flower by any description, but I'm still kind of a prude about bodily functions..

@Beericle "I get it that you poop, I am sure you get it that I poop, but I really do not need to know or share any more than that. Stop it." YES. THIS.

raised amongst catalogs

@ferdinand the bull Oh my gosh, "ppfffftsss" is the sound my boyfriend makes just to make me insane with rage and embarrassment. I'll bend down to get something or simply walk by him, and he makes the quietest "ppfffftsss" noise and then I get totally ashamed of something I didn't even do!

SomeGayGuy

@vanillawaif oh man, there goes an entire category of my favorite humor :( one of the most enjoyable things is to sit on the can while reading poopreport.com

ohhhhhhhhhhhsam

OK SO for the girl who wants to know about the weed thing, nobody ever wants to smoke alone even if they really want to smoke. So people invite people to smoke all the time just from not wanting to do it alone. They definitely have interest in you enough to share some time and weed ............ but understand that the "not doing it alone" is a bigger part of the invitation than somebody who invites you out to lunch... because you can have lunch alone without feeling like a pathetic fuck.

machinesss

@ohhhhhhhhhhhsam Hmm I agree that no one ever wants to smoke weed alone. But in my experience the smoking a joint would become a group thing, it's not hard to find quite a few people who want to burn at any given time, especially in college.
A specific invitation to smoke a joint and listen to music one on one in a dorm room would be a pretty clear sign to me that the dude wants to hook up.

Dorothea

@ohhhhhhhhhhhsam um it is nice OK? you can just watch your favorite youtube videos over and over and nobody complains!

no way

@ohhhhhhhhhhhsam Au contraire. Due to weird social anxiety and the fact that weed makes me either talk NON STOP or say nothing at all, I absolutely prefer to smoke alone. While going to lunch alone seems odd and sad. Maybe that's because I always bring a bag lunch; going out to eat is friend time.

skyslang

@no way I disagree too. I love to smoke alone and watch Downton Abbey, listen to music, take a walk and daydream, swim in the sunshine, drink a glass of wine and draw, work on my screenplay etc. Weed is contemplative for me. Basically: Weed = a Chico's Kind of Day

I'm Not Rufus

@ohhhhhhhhhhhsam Regardless of social norms about smoking weed, I definitely would not assume that inviting someone to your dorm room indicates a desire to hook up. Put it this way: I invited ladies to my dorm room many times when I was in college, and it was typically not because I wanted to hook up.

Decca

I just can't with the toilet humor. It's the one thing I'm prudish about, it just skeeves me out and I can never find it cute or endearing. Let's just repress and keep all our bodily functions to ourselves. Cool? Cool.

raised amongst catalogs

@Decca Yes! Yes! You can come sit with me and @fabel.

momo147

@Decca @vanillawaif save me a seat! i cant even say the word f__t

SheWhoReadsInSkirts

@Decca This reminds me of my friend who insisted that all of us with our tiny bladders were absolutely mortifying to her. When pressed about her own bodily functions, she informed us that she didn't pee, it just misted away from her. This, I think, is actually worse than peeing.

MoonBat

@Decca @ vanillawaif @fabel
Make room for one more! I find it MORE touching and a sign of greater closeness that we spare one another the farting.

one cow.

@vanillawaif I'd like to join!

MilesofMountains

@Decca Yes! It's not funny, it's just gross. I don't care if that makes me stuck up.

You'll be sorry Jo March

@Decca Agreed! And not acknowledging the noises of various bodily functions is not lazy, it's polite.

frigwiggin

@SheWhoReadsInSkirts Ah, the fine mist of urine. So ladylike, so proper.

SheWhoReadsInSkirts

@figwiggin My favorite part, I think, is when we pushed the conversation onward to whether she would then be inhaling her own urine to which I can't remember her comment, but I'm pretty sure it was punching either myself or Philip. >_>

mascarasnake

@Decca Yes! I've found that once someone farts in front of me they're suddenly comfortable regaling me with tales of their IBS and no, thanks all the same.

Tam
Tam

@Decca I'll join the no-body-functions-please club too!

Xanthophyllippa

@SheWhoReadsInSkirts Yes! Because it means every time you're with her, SHE IS PEEING ON YOU.

chevyvan

@Decca I grew up with three brothers, and you'd think that would make me more comfortable with farting (God, I didn't even want to TYPE that), but it just had the opposite effect. I get that it's a part of life, and I'm cool with it to a certain degree but I just don't expect me to congratulate you or start laughing and clapping.

Apocalypstick

@SheWhoReadsInSkirts WHAT. That is priceless.

sox
sox

Last LW, I'd like to contend that there is a third type of guy: pot induced lazy dude. Smoking with a hot chick (if he invited you, he thinks you're hot) away from the party is clearly what he wants, but being hella stoned can make it hard for a boy to man up to your kisser, ya know?

leonstj

LW2 - its possible that he's a player and a totally nice guy, which is why he does nice things. You just kind of say he's a known player, but does he mislead people? Cuz that's shitty. Or does he just like to fuck different people a lot?

The most succesful "player" dudes I know actually and genuinely really. Just love women. They fucked around A LOT, but also would do really nice things for women because they loved women. Because I don't like douchebags, they weren't cads, just men who loved sex and womens bodies and personalities and weren't afraid to admit it. This often got them laid - I mean, why wouldn't a woman want to be with a guy who loved the company of women?

And some of them totally became LTR guys. It wasn't some big switch or play - they just met some lady and bam! All of the sudden they don't care about playing the field because something just clicked.

redheaded&crazy

@leon.saintjean excellent point. I've also met/hooked up with guys who were clearly players but also clearly really into women/into me, and at first it's easy to be distrustful of someone with that reputation, because of the associated stereotypes, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad guy or disrespectful, ya know?

if you find the PUA handbook or whatever in his bedside drawer, THAT's when you know they're a bad disrespectful guy!

leonstj

@redheadedandcrazy - Exactly! The question to ask yourself is "Does this dude have a lot of hook-ups in his past because he works so fucking hard to have a lot of hook-ups? Or is it because he is So Worth hooking-up with?"

If he just really seems "worth it", then go for it! Like the dude says, there are a million (46) reasons things don't work out. "He's too charming to too many women" isn't one of the worst ones.

Toby Jug

@leon.saintjean Yes, a thousand times, exactly this. If you can nail down and separate the people who genuinely love women (people who love people, even??) from the people who don't- you will win the game of life.

H.E. Ladypants

@leon.saintjean I used to call my BF "an accidental player" back when we were friends before we started dating. He was never in a relationship for long but he liked genuinely enjoys the company of women (of people in general) and is interested in them, so he had no trouble finding someone else right away. (We all like people who are genuinely interested in us and seem to like us.)

Our circumstances were entirely different than the LW, we were besties for a while until we both realized that we'd fallen in love with each other and really wanted to give the whole settled down thing the best shot we could. And for the most part, it's worked out.

But I am also not going to lie, having been in a relationship with that dude for a while- there are a bunch of issues that come along with it. And while I know that narrative of "finding the person with whom something clicked" seems so effortless on the outside, on the inside it's a lot of work. There's a whole way of seeing oneself, habits and behavior that has to change and that's hard.

(I don't mean to say I don't come with my own set of baggage- I have matched luggage- just that there are a certain set of challenges that come with that dude.)

Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy)

@leon.saintjean Yes, "being a nice guy" and "getting around a lot" are not mutually exclusive.

Gracefully and Grandly

Just sneaking down here before I finish reading LW3's question, but isn't it sort of sad that being a "very standing up guy" means getting someone home safe/not molesting/not trying to get in their pants when they're really drunk? I'm saying this as a someone who has basically thought the same thing at one point or another.

I just thought that's what most humans would do, you know, not molest someone when they're drunk? Not molesting someone doesn't make you upstanding. I was just really struck by that.

Ok. Back to reading.

muddgirl

@ferdinand the bull Yeah I agree. I really do feel for LW#3, but on the other hand, maybe we as human beings can have higher standards than, "He drove me home and didn't try to molest me"? I mean, I'm sure there are other factors that make Player a stand-up guy, but I wish that this partucular factor just made him a regular guy.

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

@ferdinand the bull: I think the Dude hit the nail on the head regarding college guys, re: they are wimps or date rapists. College is like 'grown up school' where you're so clueless and exposed to so much peer influence and expectation, that many, many guys end up in these two camps (aka not fully formed people yet.)

atipofthehat

@ferdinand the bull

I thought a stand-up guy did the time without ratting anyone out?

leastimportantperson

@Too Much Internet How dearly I wish men could be forced to internalize something like, "Yeah, all women are either murderers or wilting flowers. You just have to take your chances until they grow up, or you learn to spot 'em at a distance." Like for fucking real.

Katie Scarlett

@ferdinand the bull I had the same thought while reading this and I'm glad I'm not the only one. I hope LW3 just kinda worded it funny and doesn't really have such low standards because that would be a bummer.

wharrgarbl

@leastimportantperson Seriously. "So good luck ever getting what you want without getting treated like shit in the process! Because guys can somehow figure out how to interact with each other without being completely passive or Lord Humongous, but it's still open season on women! Who have magically queefed out the ability to be more or less fully functioning human beings by that point, but let's never expect the same of guys! Who are still somehow more fit to rule the planet and decide what happens with your uterus!"

leastimportantperson

@wharrgarbl It's just sad that men are such wild rapist mustangs that can't be tamed :( Well, let's all cross our fingers that they figure it out in "grown up school"!

wharrgarbl

@leastimportantperson Hopefully without doing too much date-raping in the meantime! I mean, I know it's super-hard to get through college without raping someone or being a complete wimp who never, ever gets laid and then sulks about it for the next decade, because ugh, you guys, women. It's like, they complain about date-rape, but then they still won't spontaneously put out when you totally give them their space and don't ask for anything. What the hell?

Katie Scarlett

@leastimportantperson BOYS WILL BE BOYS!

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

Wow I am going through the shredder

Yes, I did say a very generalized thing. I think that a lot of people gain many dimensions in the following years and 'grow out' of the college phase, where college is a safe party haven to act on your id. Apologies for labeling.

leastimportantperson

@Too Much Internet I mean, once again, "safe party haven to act on your id"--you're tying that back to your statement that you agree that guys in college are wimps or date rapists. So acting on your id is the date rapist side of that, I take it. I don't really know what to tell you if you legitimately think that rape is some kind of valid learning experience for men, some part of "gain[ing] many dimensions".

wharrgarbl

@Too Much Internet You do realize that "surrounded by date-rapists" and "safe party haven" are pretty much diametrically opposed concepts if you're a lady, yeah? I don't think it's the stereotyping so much as cavalierly signing on to the idea that college dudes are either passive wimps or date-rapists. Like, you don't really "grow out of" being "a rapist." I mean, I guess there is most likely such a thing as "a rapist with dimensions," but the more salient point for most women is going to be the "rapist" part rather than the "runs the IMF, collects paintings by obscure impressionists, and Has Opinions about brut spumanti wines" part.

Xanthophyllippa

@wharrgarbl Hee hee hee you said "queefed!"

wharrgarbl

@Xanthophyllippa I absolutely did say "queefed." And I'll do it again, nay, a hundred times! Queef, queef, queef, queef...okay, maybe a hundred times would be a little bit much, but you get where I'm going with this. And where I'm going with this is Queef City.

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

@leastimportantperson: It definitely is not (a valid learning experience for men). I did not mean to be flip. College is an incubator where many young people are finding identity for the first time in their life outside of highly regimented high school type environments. Group-think behavior or isolationist behavior can be high. Personally, I remember many fellow college freshmen adhering to these stereotypes.

Using 'date-rapist' as a descriptor is wrong. Many of the guys were obsessed with bedding women as trophies and social standing. I was referring to this behavior when I spoke. It is wrong, though it is prevalent.

I still agree with the Ask A Dude in the spirit that men in college are not mature.

Xanthophyllippa

@wharrgarbl Welcome to Queef City! Population: US.

Gracefully and Grandly

@wharrgarbl we built queef city! we built queef city on rock and roll!

but seriously. just caught up with the other comments and you are so spot on with every single one. well said. well said wharrgarbl indeed!

Xanthophyllippa

@ferdinand the bull I will never again be able to hear that song without laughing. This pleases me.

Inkling

@Too Much Internet
But why does "not mature" have to mean "being a rapist" or "being so terrified of raping that they are A WIMP"? Why can't it mean like, "unsure how to do laundry" and "putting everything off until the 3am before" and "thinking you will never not dye your hair blue"? Why does it have to be this dynamic that makes half the human population this indiscernible creature unable of communication that should be tortured or fled from?

Alter Kocker

@Too Much Internet
I would say that men in college do generally fall into two types: those that consider women conquests, and those who generally won't make a move unless they are given "the signs" in very, very unsubtle ways. A very extreme way of putting that is that they are either date-rapists or wimps, but that's not literally true. Also a bad choice of words.

Personally, I've never viewed women as a "goal". I would be mortified (MORTIFIED!!!) if I made a move that wasn't reciprocated because conquest was never an objective. More like "interaction" - palaver, simpatico, empathy, laughter! These are very wimpy things! Not conqueror things. Most of the dudes I knew well in college were like that, and a few weren't. I didn't know any date-rapists (god fuck their souls). Plenty of women found this non-conqueror disposition attractive, and also had the presence of mind to display "the signs", which are very necessary for these types of men when they are in college. The sad thing though is that far too many otherwise normal college-age women did tend to favor the wrong kind of men - the conquerors. Maybe it was their reluctance to display the all-important signs, maybe they just found conquering types sexier - who knows. Really its all a big misunderstanding that gets cleared up later. On both sides. For most.

ELECTROMAGNETIC CHAOS

Alter Kocker adds some context to this. Thanks Alter.

@Inkcrafter: It does not have to. I understood The Dude to be using hyperbole in this instance, and so my comments stem from that interpretation. I did choose my words poorly, as I did not establish this very purposefully.

My sentiment, then, was that understanding could be gained from the realization that, in this college microcosm, behaviors and attitudes very well could be in their beginning stages, with the poles being set towards these archetypes (to the detriment of many young people, unfortunately.)

My insitigation, was that, as it would seem that the expecatation that a normal person would not take advantage of someone else would be expected, in college indeed it may be closer to an exception than a rule (and relatedly, caution should be taken.) My intention was not to pigeonhole guys into categories uniformly. I would not be commenting and participating on a feminist oriented website if that were the case.

oeditrix

@leastimportantperson, you are the most important person in this thread. Keep saying stuff.

leastimportantperson

@oeditrix The thing that gets me is that everything I've said is so basic. I feel like I was reading the equivalent of, "Did you know the earth is either flat or carried on the back of a turtle? It's true!" Also, seriously, I feel like I'm kind of defending men here? I went to college not that long ago. I did not at all experience this creepy dichotomy that you guys seem to think is just fact. That shit is chilling to read, and it absolutely suggests (and none of the backpedaling has gone against this) that there are men who are afraid to rape you and then there are those that go for it. That is just not true. It's just not.

leastimportantperson

@leastimportantperson AND FURTHERMORE. Take rape out of it. This wimp/conqueror thing is fake, too. Sorry bout it.

Alter Kocker

@leastimportantperson Its not a dichotomy, its a continuum. Its not useful to think of people as existing at these extremes, but it is useful to define the extremes so we can talk about the continuum between them, which is where most people are. The wimp/conqueror axis plays a big role in sexually charged interactions regardless of gender. I can't even imagine a person who does not have this internal dialogue in a potentially sexually-charged but still ambiguous situation: Do I make a move or not?
The dichotomy is because the answer to that question is either yes or no.
The answer depends on where they are on this continuum, as well as just how ambiguous vs. how sexually charged the specific situation is. And where a person is on this axis in sexually charged situations does not necessarily say anything about where they would be on a similar axis in other interactions with humans (friendship, money, war, etc.)
But to say that this passive/aggressive axis is fake, I'm not buying it. By what other construction do we decide to act or not to act?

Inkling

@Alter Kocker
Well, there is that third type that view women as people. And then a fourth type that view women as something to not "conquer"/run from at all because they want to be having sex with dudes. Do you see what I mean?
There is such thing as a position when one person wants to make a move on another person, but deciding yes, I will make a move does not mean attack. It sounds like you think sex and rape are the same thing.

And @Too Much Internet, you seem to think this spectrum you have invented of rapists and wimps is a range that all men fall into. However, rapist behavior is not an extreme of an average behavior, nor is it the anti-wimp.
A few shades off "rapist" isn't a normal personality like "confident". Overly confident men are not rapists, like under-confident men are "wimps". Does that make sense?

leastimportantperson

@Inkcrafter Thank you thank you thank you. This is all so true. Smdh that this even needs saying, but you're putting it into words perfectly. I also really appreciate what you said about maturity, because that is also exactly it.

I'm Not Rufus

I think it's more sensible to think about college-aged guys as just being a group of people who are inexperienced in sexual interactions and therefore have yet to converge to appropriate behavior. (Surprise: This applies to girls too!) Some people have an instinctive feel for signs of interest but most people start off making errors where they either perceive interest where there is none or no interest where there is some. (Rape is a completely different thing because the fundamental problem is lack of respect for someone else.) That's why it's important for the LW to take responsibility for communicating what she wants rather than waiting for the guys in question to make a move which she herself is unwilling to make.

Inkling

@leastimportantperson
What you said about how women don't have an accepted dichotomy of terrible behavior is right on. As if MEN don't know what to do in these situations, and are accepted to bounce around like an electron cloud with rampant, sociopathic wieners and just beware as one flies at you, but boys will be boys and etc. Women are already mature in college or else making little cute women mistakes, like parking on the wrong side of the gas station and misspelling their grandma's name in their needlepoints.

oeditrix

@leastimportantperson I KNOW RIGHT. Treating women like humans - not rocket science! Men - humans as well!

Women are not objects and men are not animals.

oeditrix

@I'm Not Rufus "Rape is a completely different thing. . . " You've put your finger on exactly the problem with the original comment and its apologists. Seeing rape as existing at one end of a spectrum of normal sexual behavior is just gross. RAPE ISN'T SEX Y'ALL. It's violence. Someone can have a pretty nasty temper - I do! - but when a person murders another person, we don't call it an extreme temper tantrum, we call it pathological. I know it was just a Dude's word choice here, and I guess I'd be willing to discuss the gross wimp/conqueror dichotomy as well, but I think it's very, very telling that conqueror and date rapist have to exist in the same colloquial universe.

I have been friends with many men, who have exhibited various levels of assertiveness in dating behavior (also can we switch from "aggressive" to "assertive"? There's a difference there as well), and never have I once thought of them as potential date rapists. (Or conquerors for that matter.) They're just people with differing personality types and differing styles of human interaction. If they were date rapists, I'd fucking turn them in.

leastimportantperson

@oeditrix I've definitely seen bitterness directed from men toward other men defining all, as you said, successful assertive sexual behavior as something like rape. Or acting like because a guy has been up front about sex that he's found some kind of loophole that obviously no "nice" man would dare exploit. It's things like snidely saying, "That's all it took?". Or even saying, in this instance, that guys who aren't completely terrified (lol because wow like rape isn't the actual terrifying thing on the table here SERIOUSLY) of making "the first move" (yawn, there are like a thousand tiny moves usually on the way to hooking up, it's not just like there's just some horrible LUNGE out of nowhere) deserve scorn and deserve to be called rapists. This is to say, I really bristle at this thing of men being like, oh well, I'm just too respectful (?) of women to make the first move, so I don't get laid, unlike those rapists who do. Yeah that's not what it's like. And again, that I feel the need to defend men here. Just like. Oh my God y'all. Ridiculous.

LeslieB

What is up with the Dude's answer to LW1?
"There are two kinds of rich kids — those who know they’re rich and quietly cover more than their share, and those who that think money comes from a bottomless bag in the basement … and why wouldn’t everyone have an awesome bag like that in their basement?"

I have friends where their parents paid for their college tuition and living expenses. In no ways do I ever expect them to pick up part of my check. It's not like they force me to buy stuff.

machinesss

@LeslieB Yeah, I agree. I've known rich kids who think that money is just this thing everyone has an endless supply of, but I don't think my friends who are better off have a responsibility to pay for me. All I expect is that they have an awareness that I and other people may not be able to afford the things they can.

KatieWK

@LeslieB I thought that was the truest part of his answer! Not that LW1's boyfriend is that rich (nothing in her letter indicates he is), but I think those categories are pretty spot on.

My Bottomless Money Bag friend who comes from money will frequently get drunk, leave early, and genuinely forget to pay at the bar (leaving us with his tab). I don't think he's a dick--it's like money doesn't even exist as a concept in his mind, and he is only reminded of it when he sees other people whip out their wallets at the end of the night.

And of course no one expects the rich friends to cover the balance on a group tab, but they often do, no? I have always found that in a large group, the wealthiest and/or oldest person typically does this. Now that I have some younger coworkers I am trying to be that person. It's just a social nicety.

chevyvan

@LeslieB I never got that he was suggesting that rich kids should pay for everyone else. He was just saying, that they're not being thoughtful about money b/c they're 1. immature and 2. just never thought of it as an issue b/c it's not hard for them to come by. Other people, while they might actually not have any shortage of money may still see picking up the check as a gesture of kindness b/c they see the inherent value in spending money on someone.

Lots of people are being really hard on this Dude today and I think he's a great Dude!

paddlepickle

Whoa, woefully inadequate answer to LW#1.

"Because admit it: part of you, even if you had just as much money as him, you want him to pay more. And is that douchey and antifeminist and selfish and shallow and hypocritical?" YES. YES IT IS.

It really bothers me how many women who identify as feminists still want men to pay for everything. It is not 'chivalry', it is not 'showing you care', it is acting on the assumption that women date because they need a man to support them. Because they cannot support themselves. And that's fucked up no matter which way you slice it.

I get if someone invites you to an expensive restaurant, you might expect them to pay. But if you ask your girlfriend to get coffee with you? There is absolutely no reason you should be expected to buy her coffee. You're in a relationship, you're spending a lot of time together, you will incur expenses together and by that point who initiates the encounter bears no relevance whatsoever.

If you want him to woo you, ask him to woo you in a way that isn't embedded in the long history of women's forced submission to men.

And if the feminist rant didn't convince you, LW1, every guy I know would run like hell if their girlfriend complained about his failure to pay every time he asked her to meet up for coffee.

(Oh and the "I'm all for going dutch and paying for myself, but when he invites me to dinner I think that he should pay. " doesn't excuse this at all. She's saying if SHE suggests dinner they'll split the bill, but he has to pay if he asks. So the idea of her buying him dinner ever is totally out the window.)

entangled

@paddlepickle I am so incredibly in favor of paying my own way, but there's still something a bit weird about what's going on in their relationship. Maybe because they keep asking for separate checks rather than taking turns or splitting things 50/50... to me the telling sign that dating had become a relationship was that we started alternating who paid. Also her mention that he has a lot of money (for an undergrad) makes me think that maybe he is asking her out to places where she can't afford to split the bill. Or, on a completely different tact, he's rich and has started to get a sense she's attracted to that more than she is to him (I've known wealthy guys who are HYPER paranoid about girls not really liking them but wanted their money).

I think she both needs to examine her need to feel wooed (is it just about money? or would she be content with little thoughtful things that show he truly cares? is he providing the latter) as well as if he's being totally blase in a way that is driving her bankrupt or making her feel neglected. I think it's pretty gross when women feel like it's necessary for guys to pay, but I also think it's pretty nice to pick up your so's cup of coffee when you're in line next to each other.

@arrr starr YES. You just WON with this comment. Exactly. LW1, listen to this.

MerelyGoodExpectations

@arrr starr The fact that she says he asks for separate checks "at the counter" suggests to me that they're not exactly dining at Per Se.

paddlepickle

@arrr starr I dunno, if you're planning to split the bill asking for separate checks is just more convenient than calculating it at the end. And I'm pretty dumb so I'd rather do that than try and remember who paid last time if we alternate.

Also- she never says that SHE doesn't have a job or her parents don't give her money, just that his not paying 'isn't a money issue' because he's pretty set. I feel like she would say it explicitly if the issue was that it's taking a toll on her wallet.

But I do agree with your second paragraph, entirely. But I would add that if she wants to be treated to dinner sometimes she had better be prepared to do the same, and 'showing up with beer' is not the same thing as buying dinner.

mayfly

@paddlepickle I came here to say the same thing. I think she'd be totally justified in, say, asking if they could switch off paying for meals. But she wants him to pay, apparently mostly because she thinks the cashier and people in line are judging her? And because spending money is how men should "woo" women? Fuck that noise. As Dude said, it's 2012, not 1912. Stop being so douchey and antifeminist and selfish and shallow and hypocritical, because you're just making the rest of us look bad.

entangled

@paddlepickle I've always felt like separate checks is kind of a pain in the butt for the waitstaff and makes the whole process take longer. To me, it always seems a little cold and overly specific unless there's a huge difference in what people are ordering. And I totally agree that it's more work to remember who paid the next time you go out, but that's kind of why it's a line in the sand for me... if we're treating each other instead of just paying half, then there's the assumption that there will be more dates and they're probably pretty close together.

I totally agree that showing up with beer and making dinner isn't the same thing as taking her turn with the bill. In fact, there's something weird and gendered about her feeling like that's her contribution. I'm just still a little hung up on the lack of intimacy in separate checks.

skyslang

@paddlepickle Also, I doubt she ever asks him to dinner.

oeditrix

@paddlepickle I'm glad you said that so I didn't have to be the bitch this time! The LW is young and feeling things that are totally human and understandable, but it seemed crazy to me that the Dude didn't call her on this attitude even a little bit. Or even ask what kind of money she was making.

I personally prefer alternate treating to splitting the bill, with whoever makes more money treating a bit more. But I do this with friends, too.

themegnapkin

@paddlepickle when I'm in a relationship, I make sure to pay "my share," but I so much prefer to take turns rather than split the check. I think it shows that you both value the relationship, and that you're not bean counting - you each trust the other not to take advantage of you. I once dated a (crazy) guy who would take turns paying for rounds of drinks with me, and he would conspicuously order a cheap drink when he was paying, and an expensive drink when I was paying. It didn't last long, for several reasons.
BUT, re guys paying for girls: one of my friends (guy) always pays for girls, and he tells this story to explain why: when he first started dating, his mom sat him down and told him that (at the time) for every $1 a man makes, a woman doing the same job makes only $0.75. Over his life, that will add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, and the very least he can do to make up for that inequality is to pay for his g*dd@mn date. (And, presumably, once wage equality is finally reached, he can stop. It helps that his family is very well off, and that he makes a lot of money.)

paddlepickle

@themegnapkin That reasoning for guys paying for girls seems well-intentioned but misguided to me. The reason that women don't make equal pay as men in the first place is that women have traditionally been expected to work not at all (or very little if they're poor), and rely on men to take care of them. The reasoning is there's no need to pay them as much because they should have a husband to take care of them; that's why it's expected that men pay for dinner. So even if he's paying for dinner to make up for income inequality, he's inadvertently reinforcing it by continuing the tradition of men providing financial support to women so they don't have to.

idlesby

@paddlepickle
Jesus H. Christ, thank you for pointing this out. The other thing that drove me nuts about LW1, the Dude, and the other commentors, is that it is CRAZY to get so worked up about such a trivial thing. Srsly, ladies? Save your energies for things that actually matter. I literally cannot imagine caring about this, and I even usually switch off paying every other time even with friends, so it's not like I'm 100% pro-separate checks. (I also think some people are reading a liiiiittle too much into how he handles asking for separate checks. Nuance is difficult to get across in writing, much less so if you're trying to convince someone of your position.)

entangled

I have things to say about all of these letters, but all of them get really long-winded and boring, so I'll just agree with this Dude that the fart question is the best ever.

(also, I am so incredibly distressed by people who refuse to fart in front of their live-in significant others. I feel like they're pretending not to be people or something. but maybe they just have superior digestive systems)

frigwiggin

@arrr starr haha WINDED

(get it, it's a fart joke)

hallelujah

Ohhhh man, farts. I have a really awesome/disgusting story about getting over the fart-hump with an SO but I think it's too much even for my fellow 'pinners. Sigh. Farts!

lauraruth

I need to know the identity of this Dude because it is Valentine's Day and I am in love with him

CupcakeTattoos

Am I the only person who doesn't fart in front of the partner? Jesus, I'd rather set myself on fire.

spoondisaster

@CupcakeTattoos Nope! A particular manfriend was very open with his farts but I don't think I have ever purposely farted in front of anyone. There's nothing shameful about farting, but it's just one of those things.

machinesss

@CupcakeTattoos For some reason I don't give a fuck if they farts in front of me (or if anyone does really, fart away society), but man I would be way too embarrassed to fart in front of them

Bittersweet

@CupcakeTattoos: I've been with my husband for 20 years. It'd be an awfully long time to hold one in.

Xanthophyllippa

@Bittersweet I'd be afraid it would just come out as a ripping man-belch instead.

ETA: I also laugh at belches.

Judith Slutler

Hey LW4, I strongly feel you deserve a better answer, so I will try.

It's definitely possible that these guys figured they had made the first move by inviting you to their rooms in the first place, and just didn't quite have the heart/balls to close the deal. However, I think it's so important to be open to the fact that not all interactions between hetero men and women have to be about sex. You just started college, so couldn't you maybe use a dude friend or two? Consider smoking up / hanging out with these guys noncommitally in a friendly way, and just seeing where it goes, instead of placing everything on your "is this about sex" scale. If they are fun to be around, it's a plus for you even if they aren't interested in you in ~that way~. Meeting guys is the easiest way to meet other guys, so who knows? Maybe things between you and Guy #1 will never heat up, but next time you hang out he'll bring around his way cuter friend?

The awesomest thing about college is all the open-ended ways you can be social with people. Smoke weed! Cook food! Play foosball! Enjoy life! And I guarantee you you'll find great guys to make out with along the way.

insouciantlover

So, I don't see this covered, but I think it warrants a mention.

A Dude, have you ever even smoked weed? Have you ever been sitting in your dorm room/apartment with a cool person who you'd totally bone but you just got SO fucking stoned that you have to keep reminding yourself to swallow so that you don't drown on your own saliva and thus making a move is the LAST thing on your mind? And in fact, honestly, you'd really rather that they just leave so that you don't have to share your oreo cakesters with them?

I mean, sure, there are exceptions, but having had ample experience with both pot and seduction I must say that the two don't go very well together.

MrComment

@Emmanuelle Cunt I would assume these guys want to hook up, but don't know how to make the move, especially freshman. If they're the worrying type, there's a lot to worry about. What am I promising by hooking up? How far do I go? What is she thinking? Why are her arms crossed? Every high school seems to have it's own set of values/expectations as to whats normal, what hooking up consists of, etc.

I think she should check her body language. Is she opening herself up to them, sitting close? The touch-the-arm move has been discussed around these parts and would work well. Another thing is to look them in the eyes until it gets uncomfortable. That'll help let them know you're interested.

Or you could just hang out with good dudes all night and not do anything. There's nothing wrong with that. I think your dudes are just wussing out, though.

Chesty LaRue

@Emmanuelle Cunt I totally agree! But I think the LW was kind of confused because she thought/maybe was hoping there'd be some sexy action? In which case, as someone upthread said, maybe they just got stoned and got wrapped up in talking and maybe she'll have to make some moves if that's what she wants.

insouciantlover

@insouciantlover Why did this post as a response? Whyyyyyyy?

Judith Slutler

@MrComment Yeah seriously, another thing is, nobody really knows how to make the move. And sometimes if you want a move to be made you gotta make it yourself.

redheaded&crazy

@insouciantlover yep I wanted to say this too but um, not while I was at work ya know?

On one hand, I am in the camp of, pot makes me super horny. On the other hand, it also makes me overanalyze my behaviour, and other people's behaviour, and everything EVER so I would just sit there being like "did that mean something? should I do something? WHAT IF IT DIDN'T MEAN SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE THE WORST"

so um, if you are stoned and feeling horny and feeling up to making a move, I would say go for it. If you wait for the other person, you could be waiting a while.

itiresias

@redheadedandcrazy Um, yes to everything in this thread. I was pretty naive about hooking up with boys when I entered college and encountered similar situations as here described along the way. Weed is weird and affects everyone differently, but a booty call (read: 3am one-on-one hangout sesh) is a booty call. If you are being invited to hang out with a group of dudes and smoke, you have given off the vibe that you are a "chill girl" (the amount of times I've cursed being branded with that stupid title, even though it's got a compliment in there, ugh) and they think you're cute/enjoy your company and want more of it. If you're being invited to smoke alone with a dude late at night, those things apply, but they also definitely want to do you.

That said, personally, unless I am very comfortable with the people I'm around, smoking makes me very overanalytical and has freaked me out of going through a hookup before. And there is nothing wrong with that. Because I've also pushed through that feeling and gone through with the hookup anyway, and sometimes it just gets more awkward and unenjoyable. (The worst time being a time with a long-standing hookup buddy who I hadn't seen in a while, when I was so high I felt completely misplaced and turning over both of our intentions in my head, and in the middle of having sex, stopped and started ranting about "what are we even doing here? how do you view me? what are we to each other? what's the point?" Gotta love/hate pot.)

Party Falcon

LW1 - Are you looking for him to show he cares by paying for dinner?

OR is what you're looking for the appearance of intimacy, long-term status and shared finances that not splitting the check can imply?

iceberg

I dunno, LW1's BF sounds gross to me, I would HAAAATE separate checks. Taking turns is the only way.

Reminds me of one of my husband's friends who at a group dinner where the bill was being split evenly amongst all the diners, put down exactly the cost of what he & his GF had ordered, turned to her and said lovingly "You can pay me back later."

roadtrips

@iceberg I think that the way people think about money is really different. Honestly, in this particular situation I think there are two conversations that need to happen: 1) How do we deal with money in this relationship? Is it open and reciprocal and when one person has some extra money they buy dinner, and no one really keeps track but it seems to work out? Or is everyone more comfortable keeping track and splitting things and paying their own way? I've seen many arrangements on this spectrum work - I think it's just important that everyone knows where they stand. 2) Is her boyfriend being thoughtful and expressing his regard in other ways? Subquestion - is this something that she also does for him? I think that when we translate chivalry to thoughtfulness we need to know that it goes both ways.

ellochka

Oh, A Dude. The mythical Bryce is definitely not at Vassar. Or at the very least, he and his brethren were not there 3-7 years ago.

thebestjasmine

@ellochka I don't know, I have two friends who have husbands who went to Vassar, and both husbands are awesome. ...And they both graduated closer to 10-15 years ago, so maybe your point is still valid.

Nicole Cliffe

I have a friend with a Vassar husband as well, and he is most excellent.

atipofthehat

@ellochka

Bryce has always been the caretaker.

ellochka

@thebestjasmine @Nicole Cliff Ahh yes, this is apparently a thing that happens. Vassar boys *outside* of Vassar are notorious for being pretty excellent. It's the environment (by which I mean ready availability of straight ladies and serious dearth of straight single guys) that screws it all up at school.

Xanthophyllippa

@ellochka Well, that would explain why I thought Vassar was a women's school, and was thus confused by A Dude's mention thereof.

ellochka

@Xanthophyllippa Former women's college, coed since '69. Pretty much everyone thinks the same as you do!

mystique

I have a dude question (and I'm too impatient to wait for this...) but what do nice guys think of girls who ask them out? Because I've asked out a couple boys before, and I'm friends with one now (after an awkward year), not at all friends with one (he was...not that great a person), and am sort of friends with the next guy but he got friendlier after I asked him out which weirded me out and I told him to leave me alone and then said sorry and now we have a "chill" friendship and the latest guy I asked out and it's been absolutely chill. (The last three guys had girlfriends who they hadn't mentioned if that means anything?). I know that it's all based on the guy, but in general, as a nice guy, if you had a new friend who was a girl who asked you out, how would you feel about them? Would you be eternally weirded out?

Ugh I hope I'm not abusing my Hairpin commenting privileges by always asking about boy problems. I PROMISE I'M ALL FEMINIST-Y AND STUFF TOO.

insouciantlover

@mystique Hi! I was super aggressive in my day.

Some boys don't like being asked out. Many do. Sometimes it intimidates them and sometimes they're simply not interested. Some of them will absolutely love it.

So my honest answer is that any of them who are eternally weirded out by it are so mired in their own insecurity that you shouldn't worry at all about them, and I promise that in retrospect you will laugh your ass off at the idea that you asking someone on a date could scar them for life.

Keep doing what you're doing, girl. Rejection happens to everyone but it sounds like you're pretty fucking awesome for putting yourself out there.

MrComment

@mystique Being asked out is a pretty nice compliment. I wouldn't be weirded out by it. The thing about being someone who asks people out is that there is a lot of rejection and failure that goes with it. If you wait until someone asks you out, then you're guaranteed to be dealing with someone who likes you, or is willing to act like they do for a while. It seems like you're dealing with a pretty normal success ratio. Nice work.

leonstj

@mystique - I don't think most dudes have a problem with it. I think it's just that, almost every possible combination of people possible is a bad romantic match. Instead of comparing the couple of times you tried it to the outcomes there, think about all of the hundreds of dudes you would never date, who you obviously aren't a fit with - ACK it's amazing anyone hooks up ever.

And yet they do! And when people do and then it doesn't work out later, how the first date started is almost never the cause. I say GO FOR IT. Any dude who is intimidated by a thing that seems natural to you in re: first dates is probably not going to be a good fit for similar but connected reasons.

no way

@mystique Co-sign insouciantlover: Most good, cool dudes are stoked.

mystique

@MrComment Ahh I just realized, I don't make it clear that these were rejections, or at least never got past a first date. So, I'm probably not doing as great as you think...but your sentiment of getting more rejection as the ask out-er is definitely helpful.

saul "the bear" berenson

@mystique I met my dude by leaving my number for him in a bar, so sometimes it definitely works :) Just do the asking in a cute way. If it's meant to be, you won't scare them off by asking them out.

MrComment

@mystique Yeah, but that's kind of the point of a first date. You don't really know how much you like them yet either. You're getting them to go out with you and getting to know them a bit. I wouldn't necessarily call it a failure. It still seems about right to me.

SomeGayGuy

@mystique I would also say is that as you get more practice asking people out, you'll be better able to work your way up to the date-ask and read signs to save yourself some (but not all rejection). Like, I grew up with literally no game and no way to practice (helloooo being gay and growing up in a smaaaaaal town) so when I finally felt comfortable enough to start asking people out, I did so with A VENGEANCE. Only to learn that I came on *really* too strongly and I would have learned it more slowly if I hadn't had it pulled on me. So I don't know how relevant or useful this might be to you, but don't think of asking people out as "how can I get so-and-so to like/bang me" and count success as the number of people you can convince to go on a date with you (because if you do too much of that, it feels manipulative and doesn't lead to anything good/lasting (if that's what you want, anyway), plus -- as with everything else in life, it's actually not hard to get someone to agree to something once; it's getting them to agree to do it again that's hard). Instead, maybe try to think of it as a challenge to see how well you can read someone (VERY difficult when you are heavily invested in a particular answer), as well as practice being assertive and going after what you want (which includes information, right?).

P.S. advice on execution: revv up gently and give signals. I found out that if you just spring something on someone, sometimes they will turn you down not because they are disinterested, but because they don't have enough information to say yes.

I'm Not Rufus

@mystique I think it's reasonable to say that nice guys generally feel approximately the same way about being asked out as nice girls feel about being asked out.

Fig. 1 (formerly myfanwy)

@I'm Not Rufus This comment needs to be thumbed up +100.

I asked my now-husband out, since he was taking an awfully long time to pull out his finger and it was frothingly obvious he liked me A Lot.

hungrybee

To all of you who do not fart in front of romantic partners: you realize you're totally doing it in your sleep, right?

insouciantlover

@hungrybee Sleep farting is the gateway drug.

thebestjasmine

@hungrybee YES, I was going to say this. I thought that I never farted in front of my ex. Until one time he started making fun of me for all of the sleep farting that I did. And then I stopped caring.

hungrybee

@insouciantlover Exactly. Your partner's response to sleep farting is your cue on how to move forward.

insouciantlover

@hungrybee Lol - apparently my first reaction to my own sleep fart (that woke me up it was so loud) was to clutch my boyfriend in terror. He laughed and was like "did you really just scare yourself with your own fart?"

hungrybee

@insouciantlover I love your boyfriend - that's great! I woke up a little from a sleep fart once, and heard my then-bf giggling quietly. And then we snuggled closer, and it was rather charming all around.

Megasus

@insouciantlover that is the funniest thing I have ever heard. I have scared my dog with my farts (he was resting his head on my butt).

Xanthophyllippa

@Megan Patterson@facebook FIRE IN THE HOLE!

raised amongst catalogs

@hungrybee THAT IS WHY I SLEEP WITH A FAN ON. The white noise is wonderful for so many reasons.

KDubb

@Xanthophyllippa Having a husband who is former military (artillery, no less), "FIRE IN THE HOLE!" is a common phrase around our house.

pixieg

@insouciantlover I was brushing my teeth when I read your comment and it amused me so much, I spit toothpaste all over the screen. I know that's disgusting but it made me laugh so much ahahaha!

Xanthophyllippa

@KDubb Now I want to come visit you.

tortietabbie

@Megan Patterson@facebook One time I farted and it scared the cat so much he jumped up and his tail got all huge and puffy. It was a brilliant moment and there was no one around to witness it, alas!

dotcommie

it seems like there are a lot of comments that assume a person is being tacky because they want to pay exactly their share instead of roughly splitting the bill...it’s kinda classist to assume that someone has enough room in their budget to absorb the overages. some might argue that people should just not eat out if they’re broke, but i think it’s totally fair for someone to account for buying a modest meal and not want to share the cost of someone else getting appetizers, desserts, booze, and the surf n turf.

MissMushkila

@dotcommie I don't think it is tacky when you are out with a coworker or a group of friends, but if you are in a romantic relationship with a particular person, I don't think the other person getting appetizers, desserts, booze, and the surf n turf while you are broke would be an actual problem.

My boyfriend knows money is tight for me right now and we've talked about it, because I asked that we eat out less often. And if he knew it was my turn to pay, he would keep that in mind. I feel like, if switching off is a problem in a relationship, there is something else wrong - like maybe the person you are dating isn't very considerate?

dotcommie

@MissMushkila true. people had started to broaden the discussion to all sorts of shared paying situations, and that's what raised my hackles.

mites

splitting the check is suffering

shellyp

Just logging in to show love for cake farts.

LornaLoo

@Poopmachine@twitter You know what I like? Cake farts.

Lisa Frank

LW1: Some of the best advice I ever received was when a friend told me, "Men don't like being told what to do." At first I was all indignant about this, but then I realized that she was right. It's not that he doesn't know what the right thing to do is; he just doesn't want to do it. The fact that he asks for separate checks and blows you off at the cash register prove this. It's just my opinion that he's not going to take it well if you ask him to pay for you.

LW3: If you didn't work together, I would say just fuck him. But one of my life rules is never date someone you would have to see everyday if you broke up.

KDubb

@Lisa Frank
I don't entirely agree with this. No, men don't like being told what to do (unless it's by a dominatrix, but that's a different discussion) but I don't think this situation calls for him being told what to do. At least it doesn't have to come across that way. She said this relationship was fairly new, so it's probably safe to say that they're still learning how the other person ticks. When my husband and I were dating, he very explicitly told me that he's a guy, and guys can be dumb so if there's something sticking in my craw, I need to speak up about it. Otherwise he's not gonna know because he's not a mind reader, and he'll just go skipping merrily along while I seethe in quiet frustration. So, knowing that, I either speak up and get it out there if I feel it's worth discussing, or I shut up and let it go.

It could very well be that he just assumes that she's ok with splitting everything and doesn't realize that it feels dismissive to her. Having a talk without assuming he's doing it on purpose will go a lot further than demanding he pays when going out.

bangs
bangs

@Lisa Frank I'd add, women don't like to be told what to do either.

wharrgarbl

@Xaxa Yeah. I had a little O_o moment where I thought "And women just can't get enough of it, mirite?" Juiceboxes tend to take special exception when they feel like their social inferiors women are trying to boss them, but pretty much nobody likes being told what to do.

Lisa Frank

@Lisa Frank I feel like I need to explain myself a little better! The friend who told me this is maybe, a little bit old-fashioned, and when I first heard it I was really indignant and offended that I should put my needs and desires aside because of some man/boy's ego. But I've had so many conversations with girlfriends where they have complained about feeling disrespected by their boyfriend's in ways similar to those that LW1 describes and in worse ways too. They always wonder what they can do or say to get more respect and love and attention from their boyfriends' and chalk up the disrespectful behavior to thoughtlessness or immaturity. But I think they really do know the right thing to do, but don't want to do it and are not likely to change their behavior. IMO, it's better to find a man that is respectful and thoughtful than to try to make it work with someone who is not.
And while it's true that woman don't like being told what to do, in my experience, I've seen so many more of my female friends cater to their bfs than vice-versa. :(

Inkling

@Lisa Frank
You have to consider both the innate and the learned sides of the personality. It's possible that the nonpaying boyfriend's last girlfriend (or female friend, or sister, or mom) had a Big Thing about being paid for, so he thinks he's showing respect and love by separate checks. Or his last roommate took advantage of him financially, or his mentor gave him some dumb advice, or basically a lot of things that have to do with interactions with OTHER people. He might not be not investing in the relationship or what have you, and if she was otherwise happy (doesn't sound like it?) it's just leftover behavior!
It could be a reaction to experience and the boyfriend, not through virtue of his maleness but by his past, may not figure out that this girlfriend wants something else without her speaking up.

ETA: I don't necessarily think that in this case, because LW seems so irked she must be feeling abandoned/unincluded in other aspects of their relationship. However, we all garner advice from trusted people that doesn't work when used with different people. In a different situation, I'd suggest it's just fine telling this guy what to do. Nicely, of course.

Infinite Jess

I was waiting and waiting for the A Dude to say, "LW! Not-molesting-you-when-you're-drunk is such an extremely low standard of Goodness that I am hesitant to even recommend you date ANY dudes until you get this priority down, much less date this one who seems kind of iffy." Instead, the A Dude was like "ur a delicate flower, lol."

Inkling

@Infinite Jess
I knoooooow, I was shocked when he didn't address it at all. Big thumbs down for all A Dude's rapey aspects.

oeditrix

@Infinite Jess Brilliant. Exactly what I was thinking.

I'm Not Rufus

@Infinite Jess Thank you for completely hitting the nail on the head.

MerelyGoodExpectations

Yes, wanting the guy to pay smacks of retrograte anti-feminism. But so does giving men a free pass on acknowledging the very real work that women do when it comes to keeping relationships running on an everyday basis! The LW mentions pizza and beer but I'd be willing to bet, oh, at least a split check for dinner at the dining hall that there's more to it than that in terms of a level of day-to-day care provided. Is him paying for dinner the ideal way of addressing this? Probs not. But right now it sounds like this guy is getting rather more than he gives.

(And for those who might suggest that he's reluctant to pay out of a progressive respect for women-- in my experience, such guys have knack for making their partners feel loved and valued even in the absence of cash. LW1 would do well to hold out for one of them.)

paddlepickle

@MerelyGoodExpectations I. . .am not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that she does his laundry, or what?

MerelyGoodExpectations

@paddlepickle She might-- I certainly knew girls in college who did their boyfriends' washing. And I knew a lot more who did cleaning, ran errands, and generally kept their significant others' shit together.

But more to the point, I was trying to reframe the Dudes response: I think calling her "SUPER not superficial" is less helpful than asking what (if anything) she's putting into the relationship that she doesn't feel is being acknowledged. If she's a gold-digger so be it, but if "you don't pay for coffee" is code for "you don't pay for coffee after I got up early to print off your final project," then there are other things to address.

insouciantlover

@MerelyGoodExpectations So much of this. That whole keeping the relationship running and making it seem effortless (and as a result being taken for granted) has been the bane of many of my failed relationships.

paddlepickle

@MerelyGoodExpectations I feel like she would have mentioned that, as it's extremely relevant to her question. But my advice to a girl whose boyfriend expects her to do his laundry is to DTMFA, regardless of whether he buys her dinner sometimes or not.

Katie Scarlett

@MerelyGoodExpectations This is a reasonable point that I didn't consider!

wharrgarbl

@paddlepickle A lot of times it just kind of disappears into the fabric of "being a girlfriend," though. Like, how often do women (or men) actually think about wifework as work or even a concrete contribution to the relationship?

Porn Peddler

@MerelyGoodExpectations oh my god have I ever kept my man's shit together, both in college and after. Except I also make...twice what he makes, hourly, and keep the house. I like putting pretty clothes on him and taking him out to dinner so everyone will be jealous of my adorable well-groomed man. Wait my relationship is starting to sound weird, but guys, it isn't, because we just don't give a shit.

redheaded&crazy

@paddlepickle :( my ideal relationship is one where the guy (assuming I'm at a point where we're living together) does my laundry and cooks for me. I'll do all the other housework! Am I a MF that needs to be DA? But I guess it's not like I really expect it. It's just my ideal breakdown of chore division in my ideal fantasy world.

~Justifications!~

planforamiracle

@insouciantlover ARGH, I know exactly what you mean. Not even concrete helping-the-SO-with-things stuff, but just the effort it takes to be considerate and rearrange a few priorities and actually find the time to TALK and DO THINGS TOGETHER and COMMUNICATE LIKE HUMANS. All that work of keeping the relationship running; in none of my so-called adult relationships have I been with a fella who pulls his weight in this regard. I feel like I will never be met halfway, I'll always be the one bending over backwards and being taken for granted. Wah.

anachronistique

@redheadedandcrazy Not if it's part of an equitable distribution! But then, my dad does all the laundry and cooking and my mom handles all the finances, and it works fine for them.

DrFeelGood

@redheadedandcrazy haha @ am I the MF that needs to be DA? Anyway, it is possible! My spouse handles the laundry/dishes/most of the cooking/cleans the bathroom, I do financials/social situations/rest of cleaning/grocery shopping. I still think I end up doing most of the work, even though he is definitely pulling his own weight. I think that - way over generalizing here, women take care of all the intangibles that are hard to put a value on - like remembering birthdays, sending wedding gifts, buying him new underwear... Remembering all this crap takes up a lot of my brain space.

KDubb

Oh man, LW2 had me reeling with laughter. It may be because my husband and I have been together forever but farting in this house is practically a prerequisite to living here (although I will say that we hit the farting-in-each-others-presence pretty early on). When it comes to passing gas, we live by this--payback's a bitch.

Also, I laugh hysterically whenever I think of that scene in Sex and the City where Carrie farts in front of Mr. Big and runs into the bedroom door trying to get out of there from embarrassment.

Porn Peddler

@KDubb I actually get frustrated when my man does not acknowledge my farts. Farts are fun.

frigwiggin

Okay, this is only KIND OF relevant, but since LW#1 was asking about paying and stuff, I may as well bring this up. I've been fairly well-off for my whole life, I'm not making a crazy amount of money now but I have an inheritance from my great-uncle that has always been a cushion--so even when I was a "poor student," I never had major financial worries. I try to live at least somewhat frugally because, hell, who knows when I'll really really need that cushion, but I do have friends who make less than me. The question is this: is it super-insulting for a better-off friend than you to offer to pay for things all the time? Like, I know some friends are strapped for cash and can't eat out a lot or go to concerts or whatever, but if I want to go, and I want them there, is it creepy or weird to offer to just get it? We do plenty of things that don't cost much (there's always gas money involved, unfortunately, because I live pretty far away from almost everybody I like), but, especially if it's something I suggest because I want to do it and I'd enjoy having their company, I'd have noooo problem just picking up the check, but I hate hate hate putting friends in a weird/awkward position. I'm not trying to be anybody's sugar mama, but if I've got money and I've got friends, how much money can I spend on those friends before they feel wounded pride or like I'm flaunting my money in their face? [/upper-middle-class guilt]

dotcommie

@figwiggin i certainly wouldn't mind it every once in awhile, but with money comes power, and if it becomes a regular thing an unwanted power dynamic may evolve--even if you don't intend it. i can imagine some people getting offended, though, if they have a lot of pride about not taking hand-outs or whatever. i would just talk it over with people on a case by case basis.

machinesss

@figwiggin I think if you do it every once and a while it's cool, but if you were my friend and were paying all the time, I'd get really uncomfortable? Like if I took you up on the offer I would feel like I was using you just for your money. However I don't think there's any harm in you making the offer, if they aren't cool with it they'll just politely turn you down.

paddlepickle

@figwiggin I'm in this situation a lot because I have a pretty well-paying salaried job and most of my friends are starving artists with part-time jobs or students or whatever. . .I think if you have the type of friendship where you're open about your financial situation, and someone expresses that they'd like to do something with you but can't afford it, it's fine to offer to pay. Especially if it's also self-serving on your part ie you really want to go to brunch but not alone.

The downside to this is that some of my friends have started to expect me to buy them drinks and stuff all the time, or will outright ask me to because I always do, and that gets a little uncomfortable when I'm trying to keep my budget in check.

bangs
bangs

@figwiggin I'll pay for the starving students because they're always grateful for a free meal (and I've been there!), but I find it uncomfortable to pay for the established adults who happen to have less money.

SheWhoReadsInSkirts

@figwiggin Um, coming from one such friend who has benefited from your fundfulness, I always appreciated it, and it never felt weird to me. I think, maybe, part of it was being raised watching my mom and Denise fight over who GOT to pay the check. When you have money, you take your friends out, because you can. Then, when they have money, they'll take you out, not because they owe you, or you owe them, but because that's what friends do. Spoil each other now and then.

frigwiggin

@SheWhoReadsInSkirts That's part of how I feel! And I'm glad you think it's no big deal, and I will verily continue to lavish you with gifts. I just know that for some people it is a big deal and that it can feel awkward or like I'm flaunting my privilege by even THINKING that it's no big. When to me, it's like, "I like your company, it is worth it to me to take you out if you can't pay for yourself just so that we can hang." Of course, cheap-as-free hangouts are good too! Just: friends, money, complicated.

Xanthophyllippa

@figwiggin I have kind of the same situation, because a lot of my friends are still in grad school and I'm faculty - admittedly at an ailing state school, but I still probably make more in a month than they do in a semester. The way I work it is this - if we're getting together for academic purposes (like, I'm dishing out advice), I pay for them and then tell them to pay it forward to the next generation of grad students, because that's what my professors said to me. If we're just chillin', I'll ask if I can pick up the check; if they say no, it's okay, then I back off. Sometimes I'll then offer to cover at least the tip, since it'll save them a few bucks but keep them out of that potentially weird dynamic, and rarely do folks turn that down. So I guess if it were me, I'd just ask - but I'd also quietly throw in a little extra to cover the tip, and give them back a buck or two when you make change.

For bigger events, you can kind of barter: maybe an offer like, "Hey, Arcade Fire is playing in A Nearby City. If you'll drive, I'll cover your ticket." For movies, maybe something like, "I'll get the ticket if you'll get the snacks," because even though they're still blowing $3.50 on your box of Junior Mints, it's better than blowing $11 on the movie ticket.

frigwiggin

@Xanthophyllippa I like this solution, actually! I feel like I get so much out of friendship that it all evens out, but I don't want them to feel like I'm paying them to be friends with me?

celacia

@figwiggin I think it depends on you and on the friends in question. When my best friend and I had similar incomes we would switch off who paid for what 50-50 when we went out. For the last several years he has made substantially more money than I do, and so when we go out if we go somewhere to eat or something he pays for me about 85% of the time. It's not really a thing for us because I would do the same for him if the positions were reversed, and he knows it.

redheaded&crazy

@figwiggin I tots agree with Xanthophyllippa. I'm not like super loaded that I can go paying for friend's dinners on the reg, but I do live at home which definitely has monetary advantages. I think if you want to go to a concert or something like that, it's reasonable to offer it as your treat - I've done this before and I've been the recipient before and it's just kinda nice. Or like, buying a round/pitcher, or bringing some nice tequila to a party, throwing a couple extra bucks on the tip/bill, that kinda thing.

I don't think it's that big a deal, and that's coming from somebody who doesn't like to have people paying for things left right and centre for me (dudes, friends, anybodies) because I like my independence.

redheaded&crazy

@redheadedandcrazy also when I am the recipient of things like concert tickets or whatever, I try to reciprocate in my own way by buying a round or driving or doing something nice. i've also had friends who would make me dinner or whatever in return, and while obviously not all friendships are going to have this nice easy reciprocity, it's ... an ideal to be strived (striven???) for and you can kinda cultivate it on one end at least. I dunno.

I'm big on reciprocity. But I don't think reciprocity necessarily has to come in the form of absolute equivalents.

Xanthophyllippa

@figwiggin Yeah, exactly! Then they can decide what they're comfortable with, and you can still do something nice on occasion.

Tuna Surprise

@figwiggin
I have a couple friends who don't make as much money and I love to pitch in when possible. My best solution thus far is to offer things like "I got two tix to XYZ, do you want to come with me? My treat!" I get someone to go with me, friend gets to come along, all is well. Typically, the friend tends to buy a round of beer or pay for the taxi.

I think the reciprocity works best when you give all your friends to pitch in whenever/however they can. One friend loves to have people over to her roof deck for a bottle of wine, another cooks dinner in and invites the crowd over. Everyone is useful, everyone is appreciated, everyone is happy.

Xanthophyllippa

@Tuna Surprise This, exactly! I would gladly treat someone to a cool concert if it meant I could hang out on their deck two or three times during the summer and watch fireflies.

miwome

I am telling this story just as part of the chorus of "who pays for things: it means something!" not really as advice.

On the Meaning of Paying At the Cashier: I was in a Fake Relationship (we acted like we were dating, except we never did anything sexual) with a guy who had a long distance girlfriend, for an entire year. We never discussed the nature of the situation, with each other or with our mutual friends, not once. He tended to go in cycles from not speaking to me at all to being friendly to flirting to ESCALATING THE FLIRTING until a sort of a breaking point where somebody would have had to take the next step, and then back to not speaking to me again. Needless to say, it was confusing.

We went to a movie, and after he bought his ticket I bought my own, because duh, right? I mean, he and I picked up meals or beers for each other all the time, but a movie ticket is serious business, no? And then I went to hand it to the ticket-taker, and she said, "Oh--he has your ticket," and I was all, "WHAAAAA?!" I probably spent days trying to figure out What It Meant, especially because he was then all taken aback when I paid for dinner instead of splitting it.

And that is how refusing to discuss crazy relationsituations cost me $20, or whatever it was.

LRMG

Ooohhh letter one, possibly this dude has other issues. But seriously, wanting someone to buy you stuff? This is my two cents, I've had plenty of terrible boyfriends who bought dinners and flowers. Now I split checks or take turns paying, buy my own lovely flowers and am married to an excellent man who supports me emotionally, mentally and physically. To me that is much more important than being paid for.

redheaded&crazy

LW3: I think the issue of, do you want to work everyday near somebody who you've had a thing with that ended badly is the main question, which you probably know the situation better than anybody else and can judge if you really see him that often.

the whole, will I get hurt thing, is that, of course you could. The way I look at relationships is, is it worth it to me to get involved in this, knowing that I could get hurt? Not EXPECTING that I will get hurt, but acknowledging the possibility and I guess saying, I choose this relationship knowing it could happen, believing it is worth it.

And then sometimes you get hurt. Not me of course, never happened, but even when that happens it sucks and it sucks and then it really sucks more, but you learn from that, and grow, and you can look back and say I took a chance on something I thought could be wonderful! Then it wasn't.

But I've spent too much time in my life hiding away from opportunities because I was too scared of what could happen to reach out for them, and I think it's better this new way - taking opportunities knowing that they could go south.

LW4: I vote that these dudes wanted the hook up. I was so naive/not into hookup culture as a freshman but as far as I could tell, if I was ever alone with a guy, especially at the end of a party night, they invariably wanted to do it. Alcohol is definitely more conducive to hooking up than weed though. Whether or not weed makes you horny, it does not make you/make you feel like an assertive smooth playa-play. belieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve me.

Re: guys are either wimps or date-rapists. I think that university hook up culture combined with the increasingly wide spread discussion of things like date-rape and alcohol negating consent leads to a very confusing and grey area of how to approach women for dudes who are not mature enough to know how to handle it. I don't think girls know how to handle this confusing and grey area either, resulting in the letter you wrote.

So I would describe the university experience as a combination of guys who are really into hooking up and will go out drinking and be assertive and hook up with girls who have been drinking, which puts them in the position of being construed as a date rapist, and you have guys who would really like to be into hooking up, but are more cognizant of the discussions surrounding date rape, and therefore will be more hesitant to make a move. And girls who are still largely socialized to expect the guy to make the first move. Sooooooo holy shit that is a complicated situation!

So again, I say if you want something, it is up to you to take control of the situation! Have agency! Be empowered! Make the move! If they reject you, be like, "thanks for the weed bro!" and move on!

redheaded&crazy

@redheadedandcrazy please, tell me more.

Killerpants

@redheadedandcrazy Heh. Do tell more, because that was good stuff.

MotherOfPresidents

About Letter #1:

It is absolutely unreasonable to assume that a student has plenty of money lying around simply because his/her parents "give him[/her] money" and he/she "had an internship where he[/she] made a lot of money." I'm an undergraduate, and I'm very fortunate to have parents who pay for my living expenses (tuition, housing, a meal plan, even sorority dues! I know! I'm the luckiest ever!), but that doesn't mean that I have plenty of cash to blow on extra expenses. My parents don't give me a fountain of gold just because I'm so super. They give me enough money to go to the school I attend and to eat enough not to starve, NOT enough to eat wherever I want, whenever I want, and to pay for a date to boot. I guess I'm saying that while, technically, my parents DO give me money, it's not like I'm rollin' in dough.

And to A Dude: The idea that the only internships that would pay well are in finance or banking is ridiculous. Talented students can find lucrative internships in plenty of fields - plus, you left out ENGINEERING! Engineers (like myself!) can have totally non-pretentious, paid internships that are 100% OWS-approved. It's offensive to me that you, A Dude, would assume that I was some horrible out-of-touch rich bitch simply because I found a paid summer internship. In reality, I am BUSTING MY BUTT to get an engineering degree (not that other people don't also work hard, so hard, in fact, that they're not posting a comment on a website at 10:30pm on a weeknight, blah blah, I think you see what I'm saying?), and I can't wait to help society with it. So yay engineering!

@MotherOfPresidents YES! There's a big difference between having enough money to feel comfortable on your own at school and having enough money to pay for lots of dates. And how is fancy paid internship different than a summer job in terms of income? LIke really, seriously, most people in college work over the summer. The fact that he worked over the summer and his parents are financially helpful does not mean you can expect him to keep paying for everything.

But yeah, somehow the problem seems bigger than the paying for stuff thing. It reads as either poor communication or LW1 feeling like she's not appreciated for stuff (cooking adds up, financially, too).

Chesty LaRue

@S. Elizabeth Yes cooking adds up! Especially because (most) boys eat SO MUCH MORE than... well... me anyway. It's astonishing, really.

But I agree that she can't assume that he's rich because his parents help him with school. I can assume that she knows something more about his financial situation than we do, but whatever it is is pretty vague.

len132

@Chesty LaRue My parents don't even pay for my tuition, rent, gas, or food. So from this POV, your gig looks pretty sweet. That doesn't mean that I hate you or think you're an awful "rich bitch," it just means that I have a different perspective.

Chesty LaRue

@len132 My parents didn't pay for my school, I'm still paying off student loans! Although, I'm from Canada, and only(?) ended up with about $25000 in debt... Down to 6K! So close.

Chareth Cutestory

My thoughts on the subject of farting in a relationship:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBQmxU4Bb_s

the angry little raincloud

DUDES OF THE WORLD!!!

--------I am a girl, I love being wooed. WOO ME.-----

DUDES OF THE WORLD! We are not that hard to figure out. That. A million gallazion times that.

Dusk

This is the first time I've done this, but... I love this A Dude. This, especially: Human beings are engineered to be vague, because it protects us from emotional danger. Over-thinking, college-aged humans are particularly predisposed to vagueness, because every single day they learn a new word that allows them to communicate less clearly.

miwome

@Dusk I loved that part too!

km1312

“kinda pink” = I love your dad.

kayjay

Three Things:

1) "More likely, he’s not thinking AT ALL, but you still need to speak up and say what you want." This applies to many situations and should be used LIBERALLY.

2) "Stoners are not the most pro-active people." I dare you to spend a normal day with me and see if you can keep up, A Dude.

3) I missed you, Hairpin! It's been far too long! Let's never part ways again.

D.@twitter

Re: farts. If it's especially spectacular, maybe giggle. Otherwise, let it go. My boyfriend and I had a conversation that went along the lines of, "UGH, sometimes I'm soooo gassy, and it's embarrassing! That's why I keep excusing myself every two seconds!"
"Oh, I thought you just had a tiny bladder! But me too! On the farting. Henceforth, let us just fart in peace!" And we do.

:Cinnamon Girl:

This is a fantastic A Dude. @jane marie and @edith and @other people in power: bring this dude around more often.

Esther

Are we seriously real life re: LW1?

I'm young and in college and poor as shit and I would NEVER expect ANYONE to pay for me for ANYTHING. Not because I'm a super feminist (which I am, incidentally) or because I have some sort of hyper-independent complex, but because I'm a reasonable, polite human being. I also tend to be overly generous with money that I don't have and often offer to pay for things for friends or partners or strangers, but I do that out of a genuine spirit of giving, not because I expect the same in return. If I'm with someone who regards their earned money as their own and expects others to pay for themselves, I completely respect that. WHO WOULDN'T?!

I'll say it: if you expect a man to pay for you or consider it a necessary part of courtship, you are exhibiting immaturity and entitlement. It's the 21st century for god's sake. If you're strapped for cash, tell him you need to start eating out at cheaper places. You're not his child and he's not responsible for taking care of you. His only responsibility is showing that he cares about you, and call me corny but that's not something that can be bought.

Blousey Brown

@Esther I'm with you on this. Of course, there was a time in my life when I'd get invited to dinners at places I could never afford, and I let the inviter pay. When I was older I enjoyed treating men to similar places when I was the one making more money. In my current relationship, we swap out picking up the checks. We aren't concerned with perfect equality, but we're both being thoughtful and I'm sure we get it pretty close. If one of us has had a bad day, the other treats, for example. It works out. I did have to say to my current boyfriend that I'd like it if he'd pick up some groceries for my house sometimes (coffee, soymilk, bread, snacks, etc.), because we spend all our time here. He needs the reminder, but at least he happily follows through, often buying the whole week's shopping for me. It's a good arrangement. I think we must let go of the "men pay" mentality if we want to get anywhere.

len132

Okay, someone might have said this already, but, I would like to draw attention to this statement: "Most recently he took really good care of me when I got way too drunk at an office party: he got me home safe and didn't molest me or try to get in my pants or my apartment!"

He does not get any points for NOT molesting or raping you, okay? That is supposed to be a given.

carolita

When I fart (which is usually accidental, and not usually in my BF's presence, just because my whole family is traumatized by years of my dad's brazen loud, one-cheek-lifted-off-the-dinner-chair-while-speaking farting), my BF says, "Did I hear an angel speak?" It's very sweet.

LizR

This "A Dude" is, well, being such a jackass to these people asking these questions. This "dude" is my LEAST favorite person in the "A Dude" section. Very rude and unacceptable.

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