Is this the appropriate place to point out the it is basically understood the Glen Campbell used to hit Tanya Tucker (when he was dating her / he was in his 40s and her 21)? So the Grammys had a five song tribute to beating women, basically.
And yet, almost no hip-hop cuz its a bad influence.
@leon.saintjean the factors that go into some domestic assault and similar cases getting publicized and the perpetrators reviled, versus others getting punted to the side, excused, forgotten about, really are perplexing to me.
does it come down to talent? perceived likability? visibility of the "victim"?
i guess it's probably a combination of those and other things. ugh. how can we get them to all disappear?
@redheadedandcrazy Not to throw teenage girls under the bus here, but I think in Chris Brown's case they have a lot to do with it. Well, not the teen girls themselves as much as they don't really see how bad Brown's actions were?
This is all based on the conversation I had last week with my 14 year old sister and her friends in which I had to explain (at length!) that anyone hitting anyone else is a very bad thing, and that it is even worse when the abuse happens within a close relationship like Chris and Rihanna had. Their initial reactions were along the lines of "But I like his songs and maybe she deserved it?"
@elizabeast Young teens are so weird. My thirteen-year old half sister would, I think, literally kill Selena Gomez because she is dating Justin Bieber.
@elizabeast A friend of mine posted this on Facebook yesterday, which both blew my mind with its accuracy, and explained to me some of why teenage girls are so willing to explain this away. It's because we tell them to do so!
@julia Makes me feel pretty nauseous.
@andrea disaster THANK YOU. That is maybe the only antidote.
@vanillawaif I think you have a point here. Thirteen year olds (and their surrounding early-pubescent peers) are a strange creature. I am trying to think back to when I was that age and it seems very foreign. Everything was life and death. Celebrities were property ("Get off of my man, you skank! He and I are the only true soulmates EVER because I like his face!"). It all seems very strange now, but let's keep in mind that their brains are not done developing, not even close.
@vanillawaif I remember that feeling!! I sort of feel that way about the wives of the Hansons today! Not really, but a little. I mean, HOW DID THEY GET THERE FIRST? IT COULD HAVE BEEN MEEEEEEEE!!!
@thebestjasmine I remember reading something (on fugitivus, maybe?) about how society is always 'why didn't she say no?', the answer being because society tells us that just saying no is rude, we have to say we are tired, we have a boyfriend, some excuse that can be argued with. We're not allowed to say 'I don't want to' because that's rejecting, which is rude and hurtful. And then when that doesn't work, because someone doesn't want to hear the carefully couched no, society wonders why we didn't say no.
@vanillawaif When I was in high school, one of my friends was obsessed with the beatles. She said 'I wish Linda McCartney would die so I could marry Paul!' The next day Linda McCartney died. She was convinced that she had killed her.
@leon.saintjean I keep seeing people trying to frame this conversation in this manner. You're totally right. Glen Campbell shouldn't get a pass. Frankly, I had never heard of him until the Grammys. That said, two wrongs don't make a right. Chris Brown shouldn't get a free pass just because some other abusive asshole once got a free pass. The entertainment industry has a rich, depressing history of excusing the deplorable behavior of abusive assholes--Sheen, Penn, and on and on. They should all be criticized for their behavior. I've been writing about this all week so I'm a little hopped up about it but it just frustrates me that somehow we have to absolve Chris because of the ignorance borne from history.
Everyone is dissing this woman-beater (as they should), yet no one is talking about the audience full of celebrities that didn't boo or walk out when this criminal was performing or being honored. So everyone, even artists that like to consider themselves "activists" just sat there and...applauded? They should all be ashamed.
@Edith Zimmerman I actually wrote the Grammy's an email the next day. I told them I'd like their opinion as to how hard Chris Brown would have had to hit Rihanna in order for them to deem his behavior too inappropriate to consider including him in their broadcast. Because according to them, he clearly didn't hit her hard enough, right?
Also, they couldn't AT LEAST wait until the probation was up (2014) to give him a "second chance"? The least they could have done was make him cover an Ike Turner song...
@Party Falcon WORD. Although I'm curious as to what the response would have been if chris had pummeled an adorable white chick like taylor swift and not Rihanna. Maybe no difference? But maybe a difference? Thoughts?
@MollyRingwald I just read this great article that pointed out that when the pictures of Rihanna came out, some of these celebrities on twitter did NOTHING, or even said that chris brown wasn't to blame! And then when Usher said something about how shitty it is that Brown doesn't seem to have remorse people got angry at Usher instead! And then Usher APOLOGIZED! Ugh ugh ugh I hate Hollywood.
@MollyRingwald There would be a difference. And the why of it would be an entire dissertation on race, culture, privilege, gender with a smidge of non-American relations thrown in.
@MollyRingwald: I guess this is the best place for me to mea culpa a bit when it comes to Chris Brown.
I'll preface this by saying that I didn't follow the story closely at the time, but I knew the vital stats - he beat the crap out of her, the picture was leaked to TMZ, she kept pretty quiet on the matter, and he maybe paid a fine or something? I saw the picture and it was horrifying. Fucking asshole.
I didn't follow it after that. I was disappointed in her for not cooperating with the police and pressing forward with criminal charges. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity to do something like that - to hold him criminally responsible for his violent actions towards her (and, most likely, a shit ton of women before her). Yes, it is her choice not to press charges, but Jesus, what a puzzling, maddening decision.
And then, later, when he raged against ABC and tossed a chair somewhere, they didn't press charges, either.
What was bothering me was that everyone (or, you know, the internet) was raging that the Grammys or the music industry, or commercial sponsors, should hold him responsible for actions that the actual victims of such actions refused to hold him accountable for. It still seems incredible to me that the people who were most violated and injured by his actions declined to seek justice for themselves (and to protect other people from him), but that the onus of punishment now fell on his audience to reject and shun him, and that we should be ashamed of the audience members who did not.
I hadn't said any of that aloud, because I was pretty sure I was "victim blaming" in some fashion. It doesn't feel that way, to be sure, but I can certainly see how it is. I don't think I could pick him out of the lineup he belongs in, and I will certainly never buy his music or see a concert, and I think he belongs in jail, then therapy and treatment. But there is something really odd about being angry at the audience for not denouncing Chris Brown in a stronger manner than those he actually hurt.
@karion I understand what you're saying and I can see why you'd maybe make that conclusion. (Question, though? Not mean, promise! Do you personally know any victims of domestic abuse?)
The difference is that there is a connection, a relationship with the people he hurt. That relationship complicates the 'onus of punishment'. The desire for justice is clouded for his victims.
The audience, the Grammy's, the sponsors do not have that same personal connection. So yes, I blame them for not condemning him.
(Also, it's really hard to learn as an outside observer, but you can never ever judge domestic violence victims. The answer is obvious, but not to them. And they are victims, blame does no good.)
Rihanna did cooperate with the police. He was held criminally responsible, I'm not sure why you think that he wasn't, other than you didn't follow the case. He pled guilty and got probation.
Second, I don't think that that matters, though. Domestic violence isn't about what the victim thinks. Many women in these situations have ties to their abuser that isn't about the pain that they've been put through, and they have enormous amounts of guilt with regard to bringing them to justice, which is why so many victims don't press charges, and why so many abusers go on and do it over and over again. And that doesn't take away what they did and how terrible it is. I don't see what's odd about society judging someone for their actions, and not what the victim thought and wanted and did.
@Party Falcon @thebestjasmine: I just googled and realized that he pled guilty to felony assault, which, for whatever reason, I didn't know. I knew that she didn't cooperate and declined to press charges, but yeah, that doesn't matter. He pled guilty to felony assault against her. Period.
ABC is a different story, but whatever. This guy just keeps walking away unscathed, and it pisses me off, too. And I guess that is what the outrage is really about - wanting him to have consequences for his actions, and I suppose the only way for that to happen is for the audience and industry to reject him.
He is a wretched human being and, again, belongs in jail and treatment.
@thebestjasmine what you said. furthermore, wouldn't abuse victims be more likely to seek justice to the fullest extent if they could see that society is on their side, that other people are mad on their behalf, that strangers have got their back?
@karion Again, this doesn't matter, but she did cooperate with the police. She can't decline to press charges in a case like that, though, the police will do it with or without her, but her cooperation did make a difference (without it, he may not have agreed to the plea deal).
@Party Falcon: I missed your direct question - and yes, I do personally know victims of domestic violence, although none in a situation analogous to Rhianna. The women I know were financially dependent on their abusers, and had kids and a home with their abuser, and, sadly, across the board, attempted to continue their relationship with their abuser.
Also across the board was their feeling of culpability in the abuse, which is something I don't think anyone who hasn't been in the situation can understand. I can empathize and imagine, but I don't think I will ever be able to really understand it, and I think I get sidetracked when I try.
@plonk Yes yes yes! I mean, what does it say to abuse victims out there that Chris Brown, who beat up Rihanna that much, got probation? It says that it doesn't matter if you cooperate, people will be mad at you for doing it and trying to "ruin his life," people will say that you deserved it, and it won't really come to anything in the end. Oh, and that your life will likely be in danger because if he can just come right back after you.
@plonk I've gotten the feeling on more than one occasion that Rihanna didn't want to become the poster for domestic violence. She's pretty young and if the press is correct she's still emotionally tied to him/in love with him/secretly dating him. She's just like a lot of other domestic abuse victims, only famous. I remember her voicing concern about his career, which sounds exactly like what someone who is the victim of abuse might do (justification, burying things under the rug). I think some day she might be willing to speak up but breaking out of abusive relationships is hard and sometimes it takes more than one incident to do it. I wish her lots of luck and hope she stays safe
@parallel-lines It's such a shame that she wasn't willing or psychologically able to be a stronger role model on this issue. I'm not BLAMING her, but it would have been a real opportunity to show young women the difference between right and wrong in terms of how you allow yourself to be treated. What a statement it would have made if she had shown up on Ellen or something a few days later with her busted up face and said "THIS is what happens when you don't get help immediately when you're in an abusive relationship". But unfortunately abusive victims can't see it that way. The whole thing is so utterly sad. And if she IS with him again, that's even sadder still. But again, this is not a new story. Charlie Sheen just had the best year of his career.
@plonk This reminds me: remember when Charlie Sheen had his rampage at the Plaza and attacked that porn actress, Capri Anderson? She decided not to sweep things under the rug, and instead chose to get a lawyer, go after him, talk about the incident extensively to the media, etc. And did everyone rally behind Capri Anderson and say, "Yeah, Charlie Sheen needs to go to jail!"? Nope, instead they ripped her to shreds and said that as a porn actress and escort, her word was unreliable, and pretty soon everyone was laughing off Charlie Sheen's antics as, "Oh, that crazy Charlie, what WILL that zany little devil do next?" When in reality, he could've killed that woman, and it honestly wouldn't surprise me if sometime in the next few years he DOES succeed in murdering someone. (It still shocks me that people find his antics hilarious, instead of recognizing that he's got a history of beating - and shooting! - women, and is entirely capable of murder.) So if you compare an incident like that one to the Rihanna and Chris Brown incident, and you look at how so many messed-up people have already victim-blamed Rihanna after the little bit of police cooperation she did engage in, sadly, it's hard to fault her for remaining relatively quiet about the incident. Given how little support from the public women get in these scenarios (look at the DSK situation for another example - as soon as the media got hold of the fact that his alleged rape victim was not a 100% flawless human being, her case was toast), Rihanna likely would've been absolutely dragged through the mud had she made a bigger deal about what Chris Brown did.
@werewolfbarmitzvah People's amusement over the #winning thing and support of a known fucking abuser(a few times over)angers me to this day. Sorry, #winning isn't funny. Beating women, no matter what their profession isn't funny. A father who abuses drugs isn't funny.
@MollyRingwald Hehehehe. It's a funny. Did you see the Springsteen performance at the beginning of the show? It was mostly just Bruce rasping "We take care of our ooowwn" over classic uptempo Springsteen rock.
And then the Grammy's took care of their own, in the undeserving form of Chris Brown.
@thebestjasmine And it's her industry, too. If they're fine with him, does that mean that if she does make a stand about it, she'll be 'causing a fuss' and won't be invited to things, etc, because it's too embarrassing for everyone else? If the industry bodies aren't willing to even acknowledge what he did, that sends a message to her that they don't really care what happened to her, that she needs to be nice and quiet and go away.
Very little causes as much pearl clutching and hand-wretching from me as the youth of today saying that Rihanna "deserved" to get hit. It makes me thing that generation is a lost cause.
@parallel-lines OMG the youth, they are frightening! I've now seen two compilations of tweets that make me so, so sad. The day after the Grammys, Buzzfeed released a list of kids tweeting about "who this eff is this old dude Paul McCartney?!?!11"
And last month, during the SOPA blackout on Wikipedia, there was a list of hundreds of tweets from young people (I say this as a 24 yr old) going on about how they can't do homework or pass exams or whatever because wiki is down. And how it's Obama's fault, apparently.
@parallel-lines We're not all horrible. As with most viral scandals,the people with the most ridiculous opinions get the most publicity. I believe he should have been passed around D block (since he committed a crime and all), but as usual nobody listened to me.
@olivebee Twitter seems like a loudspeaker thru which the DUMBEST PEOPLE ALIVE announce their opinions for fellow dummies to high-five and one-up. I really feel like it was created just to terrify the olds.
@parallel-lines There was a great blog post out there somewhere that collected tweets and Facebook status updates during the broadcast where young women wrote variations on "Chris Brown can beat me anytime". I threw up in my mouth a little bit.
@parallel-lines and I believe a stint in prison would have been just the thing to set him straight. Sadly, he doesn't have to stop being an asshole because it hasn't affected his profitability.
@atipofthehat That's it! The person on Twitter who pointed me to it framed it as "Why we shouldn't single out Chris Brown when talking about DV...", which I assume to refer to the fact that we need to tie this into a larger issue not perpetrated only by good looking, highly successful fellas and teach them youngsters that DV is ALWAYS WRONG AND HORRIFIC.
@parallel-lines Right. I wouldn't have as big a problem with it if he showed signs that he knew how horrible what he did was, that he'd never do it again, and he... idk, gave lots of money to women's shelters or something. Instead, the opposite of this.
@serenityfound I am totally ok with people talking about it, no matter how uncomfortable it might make him. It's not like it was a decade ago, and even then, I'm pretty fine with it. I don't understand why people are so much more worried about his fee fees, but not, for eg, all of the many victims of DV that have to listen to this crap. And the perpetrators of it who hear it and get the message that it's nbd.
Can we file this under "Assholes in the News" instead of "Men in the News"?
Because Chris Brown not a man, but a petulant, non-penitent crybaby who thinks beating a woman bloody is a "mistake" and that the world now owes him everything because he got some bullshit certificate proving that he picked up trash on the side of the road.
At the end of the day, my opinion matters little, but I have zero tolerance for him or to the people who swept his shit under the rug.
@applestoapples I feel the same way as you. I came across a comment today where someone said that because he apologized, he deserved to be forgiven and that people were jealous of his accomplishments...I just CANNOT understand what makes you think someone who has a history of violent behavior, who admitted that he was physically abused as a child and obviously has deep seated anger issues, and who has been caught almost killing people (he put his fingers on Rihanna's arteries so she couldn't breathe!), deserves to be forgiven because he APOLOGIZED. Seriously?!
@hot dog princess One of the things my dad taught me is that a sincere apology has little to no expectation of bringing forgiveness. "Don't say sorry if you think you deserve something in return for it."
Chris Brown shouldn't be thankful for his fans' forgiveness because he didn't earn an ounce of it, and yet he feels he's owed it from everyone. That Rihanna chose to forgive him in whatever capacity is another story, but I give her the benefit of the doubt and choose to assume that she did it out of pity for his foolish self-imposed victimhood.
@applestoapples I agree! I mean, there are people with the same issues he has who go to therapy and counseling for YEARS and still cannot overcome their problems. Because Chris goes "oh, sorries!" and then does something violent like a month later and does a little probation he deserves to be forgiven?! It makes no sense.
@atipofthehat I wasn't trying to imply that him being physically abused was his fault. I was just saying that he obviously already has established a violent behavior pattern and probably has deep seated psychological trauma, and a simple apology comes nowhere close to changing any of that.
His history is not his fault, but the responsibility for dealing with is absolutely his.
Unfortunately, many abuse victims are late to taking this responsibility because of the very symptoms of the fallout of what they've been through (PTSD, for example). So, it's a situation where a person to whom unforgivable things have been done (for which the victim has no fault) grows up to do unforgivable things to others (for which there is no excuse).
I think apology is a good place to start, but there has to be therapy and a longish recovery and significant change.
Instead, this incident is for many people just part of his mystique. Chris: if you like punching people, try this guy.
@atipofthehat I agree. I do not think him being abused as a child was his fault at all, and I think it's really sad that someone did that to him. However he has total responsibility for his actions and obviously how he's been dealing with his problems is not right at all. So it's just too much for me when people say him apologizing should somehow mean everything is fine.
@applestoapples I'd never actually read the details of what had happened before. God, that just makes me so tired and sad. I wish I could summon up anger.
@applestoapples Thank you for linking to the police report. I'm done questioning Rihanna. I don't know what's going on in the aftermath, but the way she protected herself during the assault was amazing. She did everything right. We should all do so well.
Would you know to fake-call police (over a voicemail message, leading your assailant to believe police were waiting for you at home), "interlace [your] fingers behind your head and bring your elbows forward to protect your face, bend at the waist to bring your head toward your lap for protection from punches, text your assistant, steal his keys, be placed in a headlock, begin to lose consciousness, gouge his eyes, turn your back against the dooor, bend your knees and kick him in the chest, all while being punched and bit?
i don't think it sucks to be him. he hasn't shown an ounce of remorse or anything that warrants sympathy. what does suck though, is being the victims of the consequences of his and his supporters' actions.
I love when people defend his grammy appearance by saying, "We can't demonize him forever! What the hell do you want from him?! Doesn't he eventually deserve to move on too, and have a career?"
And I'm like.....I would like some shred of decency or remorse or understanding of the gravity of his actions? A little bit? A bitsy bit?
@Third Wave Housewife Exactly! For the people who are "over" Chris Brown-hating, do they know how he has acted since? Zero remorse, zero acknowledgment of culpability, multiple violent anger outbursts. Hm.
@Third Wave Housewife But he's making his comeback! From, you know, that time when people stopped liking him for ...mumble mumble... Everyone makes mistakes but he's so talented!
This is the argument that always fills me with rage when applied to unrepentant (but economically useful to someone) scum like Chris Brown and the various professional athlete/felons out there.
Try being a non-celebrity convicted of a crime who has served his time, is genuinely remorseful, and trying to get a job while out on parole.
"Doesn't he eventually deserve to move on too, and have a career?"
Absolutely, assuming he works hard to earn the trust of those around him. Does he deserve to resume his career as a public figure? Absofuckinglutely nevernot-no. He deserves to start over again and work his way up in some other career out of the public life. Chris Brown *deserves* to be rich and famous again for picking up trash on the side of the road? Hell, I volunteer for funzies. Can I be rich and famous too? I adopted a dog from a rescue group! I help my grandma read her mail! I got some merit badges in the Girl Scouts! I want a Grammy.
@atipofthehat Do we know of any celebrities/public figures who have done something abhorrent like this and earned public redemption? Like, really earned it? (Not a hypothetical question!)
I'm just SO glad the Grammy Awards decided to recognize the musical genius of an album featuring such tracks as "Wet The Bed", instead of giving the trophy for "Best R&B Album" to a strong female role model like Ledisi. That would have been THE WORST, right?
One of the worst things about the reaction to Chris Brown to me is that it shows how much woman, and particularly black women, are devalued in our society. Beat up a black girl, she must have deserved it, he should get a second chance, it's no big deal. Yet, as someone above said, Kanye interrupts pretty little white blonde Taylor Swift, and he's ostracized.
@thebestjasmine Amen! ALSO HE WAS RIGHT, BEYONCE WAS ROBBED! And I'm not even a huge Beyonce supporter,or tolerant of Kanye's outbursts but I can't stand Taylor Swift's vapid anti feminist and cliche music. Single Ladies was amazing choreography and once of the catchiest songs of the year.
So yeah, not classy of Kanye, but he wasn't wrong. He was bearing witness as the Quakers would say.
Also I think it's absurd that "the industry" would willingly blacklist people like the Dixie Chicks for opposing a war or whatever, but beat a woman? Who cares? I mean, she was even AN ARTIST HERSELF, which it seems like... maybe she has to or would want to go to the grammys? So its work related too- her ability to safely enjoy her workspace is compromised by how they basically gave her attacker "Employee of the Month".
@thebestjasmine While I agree with most of your point, I do think a lot had to do with their stage personas. Taylor Swift plays up being this aw-shucks down-home virginal girl, while Rihanna is sexual and provocative with pretty hard edge. So in addition to race, there's a definite level of slut-shamey prejudice that colors (ugh, no pun intended) the disparity between the backlash against Kanye but not to Chris Brown.
@ilikemints Well sure, but that's because Taylor Swift is white and Rihanna is black. Black girl pop stars are sexualized much more than white girl pop stars. Taylor Swift has kept her persona as a down home virginal girl even though she dated John Mayer, and Rihanna is just a ho. Yes, Rihanna has an edge and Taylor doesn't, but black girls don't become pop stars without getting sexualized, not anymore.
@thebestjasmine I don't know if I agree with you completely. I do think there's definitely a racial element in terms of people's outrage over the interruption/beating issues, but I don't think black pop artists (or any artists for that matter) are "sexualized". When Taylor Swift goes to shoot a magazine cover, and Rihanna (Or Britney, or other "sexy" stars) goes to shoot a magazine cover, they both have the same choice as to whether or not they'll take their clothes off. This isn't about an image the PUBLIC puts on the ARTIST, these are choices these women make. And i'm not saying that making sure there's a plump ass shot in every shoot you do is a BAD thing, but it is a CHOICE. And that choice has obvious effects on whether people see you as a "Sexy" artist or a virginal one.
All of that being said, I don't care if you wear a snowsuit or a g-string in your music video, no one should beat the shit out of you and think it's ok, and the public shouldn't think it's MORE ok that a sexy chick was beat up than a virginal one.
I was just saying that the way we perceive people isn't a one-sided issue. People put aspects of themselves out there to be perceived in a certain way.
@MollyRingwald They absolutely do not have the same choices, and no, those women do not have choices. They are marketed, and they have people who make those decisions for them. Their choices are "are you going to be on the cover of this magazine or not?" "also, if you say no, you'll get dropped from your label." Those are not legitimate choices, they are not making those decisions.
And really, you don't know if black pop artists are sexualized? They are so blatantly sexualized that I don't even understand how someone could not acknowledge that. Every photo shoot, every song that they're given, every video plays into those images, and those images are created for these girls and young women (because they are often in their teens and early twenties).
@MollyRingwald Hmmm. I think for a lot of black female pop artists, the choice as to whether or not to adopt a sexy image in order to truly be seen as a success in the industry is not really one at all.
Sure, they can opt for non-sexy, but the bottom line is they won't be selling enough records to be considered competitively viable in the pop market. If you can name any high-selling, modern black female artist who has not experienced a degree of sexualization (besides Alicia Keys, and even she has had a minimal amount) and whose familiarity is on par with the likes of Taylor Swift, I'd be surprised.
@applestoapples I mean I don't think Beyonce has over-sexed herself for her public image. When was the last time she was in a magazine bent over and licking her fingers? And again, NOT THAT BENDING OVER AND LICKING YOUR FINGERS IS BAD (although, can we all agree to maybe stop the licking the fingers? Which like goes triple for Blake Lively??)but it's certainly a choice.
That being said, I can't name too many white artists on par with Taylor Swift who don't almost show their nipples in magazines either.
I understand the racial argument for why people have reacted the way they have to chris's beating versus kanye's interrupting, but I'm not understanding the race/sexy thing. In fact, black women at least have the option of marketing themselves as tough. When was the last time a white woman got to have a "don't fuck with me" persona? And so I don't think it's a race issue at all. I think it's a woman issue. Sexism overshadows racism to me here.
@MollyRingwald Really? Because have you seen the videos for "Baby Boy" and "Dance For You"? Beyonce does own her sexuality on a level, but there's no denying that her on-stage persona IS highly sexual, significantly more so than the average woman. She doesn't need to be grossly explicit about it for that to be true.
And yes, sexism might be the bigger picture here, but race as it pertains to the perception of female sexuality is a very valid sub-argument that a lot of people don't address. bell hooks has written a ton on the subject.
@thebestjasmine I don't think sexism overshadows racism in All Walks Of Life, I'm saying that I feel sexism overshadows racism in this case.
@applestoapples Agreed those videos are sexy, but still not as explicit as other Sexy Artists. I think Beyonce is a beautiful and sexy woman, and I think she owns it and knows it, but I don't think it's the focus. And maybe that's the point, maybe it's what the focus becomes for some of these artists with somewhat less talent who are basically all image....THAT is something to ruminate on.
@MollyRingwald It's not a contest as to who is more in-your-face with their sexuality. Being a successful artist these days is ALL about image, and the fact is that black female artists today have to use a sexual image to push a lot of records to keep up with their white counterparts.
I'm not denying that a lot of white female artists are sexualized, too, but Taylor Swift, Adele, Pink, Avril Lavigne and others don't have to rely on a overtly sexualized image to be hugely successful. Take away Beyonce's perceived sexiness, and you've essentially removed a large part of her schtick.
@MollyRingwald Yes, and what I am telling you is that it is never a battle between whether sexism overshadows racism when the issue is a black woman. Because sexism and racism go hand in hand those times.
@MollyRingwald I may have a choice regarding whether or not to dress sexy on any given day, but as a minority I'm faced with the reality that often times the reason I receive negative attention from men is a direct result of harmful stereotypes inflicted upon us in the media. That is, when we are actually represented. I honestly question on a regular basis if a man is staring at me because I am just a sexual object to him. An exotic fetish. That is an issue of both sexism and racism.
Minorities are not valued the same way their white counterparts are and do not have the same choices.
"In fact, black women at least have the option of marketing themselves as tough. When was the last time a white woman got to have a "don't fuck with me" persona?"
All the time? As they choose! Black women are classified under the "angry black woman" stereotype whether they like it or not, it is hardly an advantage.
@thebestjasmine Just wanted to add that I do agree with you that the race issue is paramount on the Rihanna/Taylor thing. I just wanted to point out that had it been a white pop star in the same vein as Rihanna (in terms of blatant sexuality, like Britney Spears) that got interrupted, I don't think that the backlash would have been as pronounced as it was with Swift. Girl works hard to maintain a squeaky clean image no matter how many famous juiceboxes she dates. So the message ends up being Taylor's just a nice girl who's unlucky in love and Rihanna's super trampy (although I hope we all realize how fucking untrue and awful this idea is).
I also acknowledge that sexualization of black women artists and the limitations they're given in how they can market themselves is ultimately the root of the problem here. So I guess my larger point would be that it's stereotypes against women, race, and sex working in tandem instead of one or the other.
@MollyRingwald I went back and read what you first wrote, and we definitely agree that no matter what, you shouldn't get to be violent towards someone and then get an award, which I think was the most crucial part of what you said.
But the second part about what thebestjasmine is saying I think is that Taylor Swift isn't necessarily "innocent" or "sweet" simply because her stage persona is. And Rihanna could possibly be a very demure person in real life. But for some reason the two women got DEEPLY different responses from their industry when someone "attacked" them. Taylor Swift, who was rudely interrupted and had her work disparaged by a black male artist in a public award ceremony was supported by disapproval of the crowd. Rihanna who was physically beaten by another black male artist, got to watch him get an award celebrating his work, literally being made to watch her peers and coworkers endorse him as an artist. While we can argue both attacks are in some way tied to sexism (would Kanye have felt as free to interrupted a male artist getting an award he disagreed with? We'll never know, as he's never done) are wildly different in terms of being things someone can and should withstand. One is merely rude, the other attack is actually criminal and violent.
So the disparity of the attacks must stem from either 1. That people don't care as much about domestic violence as they do about public rudeness. Or 2. That Taylor Swift as a person was more worth defending. I suspect that both are true in our society, and I think that the second part is really about racism. And I think it really does behoove us to listen when someone says that they think something is racist. Especially because sexism and racism intersect. If someone says to you, "I see this intersecting, and I think there's a strong racial component to how black female artists are treated" I don't think there's a real reason to argue that it's actually more sexist and less racist, except possibly your own discomfort with racism allegations. Which is like when a guy says to me, "do we always have to see things through sexist lenses?" The answer is, "YES. Just because you are tired of being forced to see sexism, doesn't mean I get to take my woman glasses off and just be in the majority." So if someone sees something through a racial lens, I generally think you need to listen to them, because they're probably someone who can't take those glasses off, and can't JUST see sexism, because they don't have that luxury. Generally the people who stand up and freely proclaim "not everything is racist/sexist/ableist!" are those of us benefiting from the system that is those things and feeling uncomfortable.
As a black female artist, Rhianna is the most "othered" of artists in America she could possibly be without being gay as well. She has to work 4 times as hard as a white male pop star to get half the respect, and the way she was treated as someone who dealt with domestic abuse reveals that.
@MollyRingwald The idea that black women as a whole can market themselves as tough is problematic as well. This idea originates from slavery times when black women were expected to endure all kinds of horrors, yet remain stoic and deal with it silently. Along with the link thebestjasmine sent along, I highly recommend Sister Citizen by Melissa Harris-Perry.
@E I think that's very astute of you and yes, I agree. It wasn't my intention to really argue whether sexism or racism was more present, I was just trying to say that, for me, the tones of sexism rang more clearly in this case than with the race part. And yes, sexism and racism often go hand in hand as both are an issue of societal value and fear.
People (the internet) keep bringing up the notion that if Chris Brown had been more publicly remorseful, it would have been easier to forgive him. But I think that, too misses the point. The point isn't that Chris beat the shit out of someone and got no penalty....he did get penalized - the courts punished him. The point is that 1)This was an ongoing problem that went ignored until it came to a head at a public event and 2)Everyone acted at first as though this was shocking and then sort of accepted it because "these things do happen".
Domestic violence has become so ordinary in our culture, and more so in pockets of communities within our culture, that we no longer see it as egregious. Sure, it was BAD, but to everyone (including the grammy association) it wasn't that big a deal that we couldn't just move past it.
That couldn't have been the first time Rihanna's friends or family saw the effects of Chris's abuse, right? It was only when she got caught as a victim that he got caught as an abuser. This, for me, is the most upsetting part. That it wasn't until this dirty laundry aired was anyone willing to help her get out from under him.
@matisse I've actually read an excerpt from that after a friend and I got into a discussion on the shared stereotype our cultures have (Strong/Tough Black Woman and Strong/Pushy Jewish Woman). We agreed both are rooted in enslavement, secret sexual assault by white men and the forced separation of Black/Jewish men from their families, leaving the Black/Jewish women to have to play both nurturing and survival roles in their families.
Terrific read, and a great addition to this comment thread!
With his Grammy wins, Chris Brown thus enters into the collector's playing card pack of "Famous Men Whose Woman-Hating Behavior Is Excused Because They Are, Like, So Talented." Collect all ONE HUNDRED MILLION. (UGH)
@Katie Heaney I mean, I would be happy to have an art vs. artist conversation - an artist's work can still be great even if the artist is horrible. But this isn't the conversation that's happening. And even if it were, well, I don't think I'd be on the 'it's all fine' side. I'm not with Polanski. For me, the artist is part of the art, and can sour it with asshat actions.
They talk about this on Pop Culture Happy Hour a lot.
Ughhhh what a deplorable human being. Ever since he beat up Rihanna hearing his name alone makes me livid. Unfortunately, I have a "friend" who, whenever I talk about how much I hate Chris Brown, always responds with "uh, yeah but other musicians do illegal stuff too, why don't you boycott them?" I'm sorry dude, jail time for drugs/weapons/whatever will never come close in my eyes to what he did to Rihanna.
@matisse For sure. There's a huge difference between crimes against the law and crimes against people. Smoke pot or don't, it doesn't affect me any. But beat me or don't? No. Nope. Nope. Violence is no.
@Lily Rowan Honestly, I think there's a lot to be said for just making it known when you can. Because so much of the problem with this situation is that people are not willing to say, at any juncture, this is not acceptable. This is not something to ignore. This is not something we should forget. Having him at the Grammys was an endorsement. It is important to say that despite what the majority of people may be saying or doing, this is not how things should be.
@atipofthehat I like Chris Brown songs. I like Bing Crosby movies. I laughed at Mike Tyson in The Hangover. I liked The Hangover! But I don't discount any of what those guys have done.
@leastimportantperson I am definitely willing to say his actions are not acceptable, and he should not be celebrated as a person. But can I still sing along to "No Air"??
@Lily Rowan so with chris brown, his yeah 3x times song which was one of the first he put out after the whole incident is like an insanely catchy song.
and I used to turn it off every time I heard it come on the radio because ugh chris brown, you are gross. but then it would be stuck in my head all the time and it was like the forbidden fruit that the more you want to hate it and not listen to it, the catchier and catchier it gets.
so i downloaded it (illegally? does that help at all? ugh my weak ass justifications) and let myself listen to it and eh, now i don't have it stuck in my head all the time anymore!
@Craftastrophies I know. It was a terrible joke about a terrible person. I'm not proud of it. Mocking someone's weight is generally not my style, I swear.
Axl's just so awful but I still love GNR!!! Help me!
My favorite part about this story is that his rep doesn't think he'd say something so stupid. Because he's great at making decisions generally.
People who loathe him are accused of being racist, and I'm really not sure why. Perhaps he gets more attention because he's more high profile than a lot of people, like Ben Roethlisberger, or Julian Assange, or Michael Vick. Assange is already a criminal, but those others don't deserve the careers they have either. At least Vick had the sense to seem remoresful for a little while, though as of late he's proved that's bullshit.
Brown seems to have a lot more people on his side than Mel Gibson.
It's the complete and utter lack of remorse that's so offensive. Why would he learn his lesson? In the grand sceme of things, his actions seem to have little consequence.
@Slapfight I think that it's not that people who loathe him are racist, no. But it is racist that he gets such a different reaction than white men who have done the same thing. This is absolutely not to say that people should not have that reaction toward him, it's to say that a) people feel freer to hate black men than they do white men for doing the same thing, especially when it's a violent crime b) the reaction to the white men SHOULD be and is not that strong.
@thebestjasmine That makes sense. I can't for the life of me figure out why Charlie Sheen still has a career(ish). He should be in prison, not being roasted on Comedy Central.
I *do* wonder if the reaction to Chris Brown is also so strong because the details were so public? I mean every horrific detail, with pictures. The internet has made it almost impossible for anything to be hidden these days. Stars aren't afforded the luxury of spinning things away like they used to. Rihanna's a (bigger) star in her own right, so she couldn't be bought or silenced as much as a less high profile victim.
@Slapfight I feel like the fact that Charlie Sheen still has a (strong) career is kind of the key to the whole thing. Like, that's what really really really happens in real life. I mean, sirens, alarm bells, HELLO EVERYONE. This is the reality!
@thebestjasmine Right. The line for me is that I don't think ANYONE, black or white, is getting ostracised enough. But the fact that Brown only gets it a little bit and white people not at all is... confusing coming and going. I mean, I am totally down with the comparatively little social shaming he gets, but not that Sheen, for eg, gets even less. But then shaming Brown less doesn't seem to help even out, over all?
@The Everpresent Wordsnatcher To facilitate this, how about making him wear a crinoline? Except, apparently, that's also deadly to people around him. Hmm.
Oh. Oh. Poor him. Poor him.
Oh.
Is this the appropriate place to point out the it is basically understood the Glen Campbell used to hit Tanya Tucker (when he was dating her / he was in his 40s and her 21)? So the Grammys had a five song tribute to beating women, basically.
And yet, almost no hip-hop cuz its a bad influence.
@leon.saintjean the factors that go into some domestic assault and similar cases getting publicized and the perpetrators reviled, versus others getting punted to the side, excused, forgotten about, really are perplexing to me.
does it come down to talent? perceived likability? visibility of the "victim"?
i guess it's probably a combination of those and other things. ugh. how can we get them to all disappear?
@redheadedandcrazy Not to throw teenage girls under the bus here, but I think in Chris Brown's case they have a lot to do with it. Well, not the teen girls themselves as much as they don't really see how bad Brown's actions were?
This is all based on the conversation I had last week with my 14 year old sister and her friends in which I had to explain (at length!) that anyone hitting anyone else is a very bad thing, and that it is even worse when the abuse happens within a close relationship like Chris and Rihanna had. Their initial reactions were along the lines of "But I like his songs and maybe she deserved it?"
@elizabeast Someone posted this on facebook. It's nauseating.
@elizabeast Young teens are so weird. My thirteen-year old half sister would, I think, literally kill Selena Gomez because she is dating Justin Bieber.
@julia
Ummm that is really upsetting. I can't even wrap my brain around it really.
@redheadedandcrazy "Ugh. How can we get them to all disappear?"
This is ultimately the important question, not whether or not it was fair that Chris Brown got publicly excoriated when others havent (as much).
@julia AHHHH! And some of the comments on that Buzzfeed post, ahhhh...
@julia The only antidote to that is to read this.
@elizabeast A friend of mine posted this on Facebook yesterday, which both blew my mind with its accuracy, and explained to me some of why teenage girls are so willing to explain this away. It's because we tell them to do so!
@andrea disaster That is absolutely wonderful.
@hot dog princess Right?! I don't know whether the actual posts or the comments on Buzzfeed made me angrier.
@julia Makes me feel pretty nauseous.
@andrea disaster THANK YOU. That is maybe the only antidote.
@vanillawaif I think you have a point here. Thirteen year olds (and their surrounding early-pubescent peers) are a strange creature. I am trying to think back to when I was that age and it seems very foreign. Everything was life and death. Celebrities were property ("Get off of my man, you skank! He and I are the only true soulmates EVER because I like his face!"). It all seems very strange now, but let's keep in mind that their brains are not done developing, not even close.
@vanillawaif I remember that feeling!! I sort of feel that way about the wives of the Hansons today! Not really, but a little. I mean, HOW DID THEY GET THERE FIRST? IT COULD HAVE BEEN MEEEEEEEE!!!
@thebestjasmine Thanks for linking to that. It completely sums up what I couldn't articulate.
@thebestjasmine I remember reading something (on fugitivus, maybe?) about how society is always 'why didn't she say no?', the answer being because society tells us that just saying no is rude, we have to say we are tired, we have a boyfriend, some excuse that can be argued with. We're not allowed to say 'I don't want to' because that's rejecting, which is rude and hurtful. And then when that doesn't work, because someone doesn't want to hear the carefully couched no, society wonders why we didn't say no.
@vanillawaif When I was in high school, one of my friends was obsessed with the beatles. She said 'I wish Linda McCartney would die so I could marry Paul!' The next day Linda McCartney died. She was convinced that she had killed her.
@leon.saintjean I keep seeing people trying to frame this conversation in this manner. You're totally right. Glen Campbell shouldn't get a pass. Frankly, I had never heard of him until the Grammys. That said, two wrongs don't make a right. Chris Brown shouldn't get a free pass just because some other abusive asshole once got a free pass. The entertainment industry has a rich, depressing history of excusing the deplorable behavior of abusive assholes--Sheen, Penn, and on and on. They should all be criticized for their behavior. I've been writing about this all week so I'm a little hopped up about it but it just frustrates me that somehow we have to absolve Chris because of the ignorance borne from history.
Everyone is dissing this woman-beater (as they should), yet no one is talking about the audience full of celebrities that didn't boo or walk out when this criminal was performing or being honored. So everyone, even artists that like to consider themselves "activists" just sat there and...applauded? They should all be ashamed.
@MollyRingwald WORD.
@Edith Zimmerman I actually wrote the Grammy's an email the next day. I told them I'd like their opinion as to how hard Chris Brown would have had to hit Rihanna in order for them to deem his behavior too inappropriate to consider including him in their broadcast. Because according to them, he clearly didn't hit her hard enough, right?
Also, they couldn't AT LEAST wait until the probation was up (2014) to give him a "second chance"? The least they could have done was make him cover an Ike Turner song...
@MollyRingwald The same celebrities that were ALL over Kayne West for 'bullying' Taylor Swift.
Imma Let You Finish > Imma Beat You Senseless? fuck that.
(h/t to Heather at GFY)
@Party Falcon WORD. Although I'm curious as to what the response would have been if chris had pummeled an adorable white chick like taylor swift and not Rihanna. Maybe no difference? But maybe a difference? Thoughts?
@MollyRingwald I just read this great article that pointed out that when the pictures of Rihanna came out, some of these celebrities on twitter did NOTHING, or even said that chris brown wasn't to blame! And then when Usher said something about how shitty it is that Brown doesn't seem to have remorse people got angry at Usher instead! And then Usher APOLOGIZED! Ugh ugh ugh I hate Hollywood.
@MollyRingwald There would be a difference. And the why of it would be an entire dissertation on race, culture, privilege, gender with a smidge of non-American relations thrown in.
@MollyRingwald: I guess this is the best place for me to mea culpa a bit when it comes to Chris Brown.
I'll preface this by saying that I didn't follow the story closely at the time, but I knew the vital stats - he beat the crap out of her, the picture was leaked to TMZ, she kept pretty quiet on the matter, and he maybe paid a fine or something? I saw the picture and it was horrifying. Fucking asshole.
I didn't follow it after that. I was disappointed in her for not cooperating with the police and pressing forward with criminal charges. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity to do something like that - to hold him criminally responsible for his violent actions towards her (and, most likely, a shit ton of women before her). Yes, it is her choice not to press charges, but Jesus, what a puzzling, maddening decision.
And then, later, when he raged against ABC and tossed a chair somewhere, they didn't press charges, either.
What was bothering me was that everyone (or, you know, the internet) was raging that the Grammys or the music industry, or commercial sponsors, should hold him responsible for actions that the actual victims of such actions refused to hold him accountable for. It still seems incredible to me that the people who were most violated and injured by his actions declined to seek justice for themselves (and to protect other people from him), but that the onus of punishment now fell on his audience to reject and shun him, and that we should be ashamed of the audience members who did not.
I hadn't said any of that aloud, because I was pretty sure I was "victim blaming" in some fashion. It doesn't feel that way, to be sure, but I can certainly see how it is. I don't think I could pick him out of the lineup he belongs in, and I will certainly never buy his music or see a concert, and I think he belongs in jail, then therapy and treatment. But there is something really odd about being angry at the audience for not denouncing Chris Brown in a stronger manner than those he actually hurt.
@karion I understand what you're saying and I can see why you'd maybe make that conclusion. (Question, though? Not mean, promise! Do you personally know any victims of domestic abuse?)
The difference is that there is a connection, a relationship with the people he hurt. That relationship complicates the 'onus of punishment'. The desire for justice is clouded for his victims.
The audience, the Grammy's, the sponsors do not have that same personal connection. So yes, I blame them for not condemning him.
(Also, it's really hard to learn as an outside observer, but you can never ever judge domestic violence victims. The answer is obvious, but not to them. And they are victims, blame does no good.)
@karion A few things here:
Rihanna did cooperate with the police. He was held criminally responsible, I'm not sure why you think that he wasn't, other than you didn't follow the case. He pled guilty and got probation.
Second, I don't think that that matters, though. Domestic violence isn't about what the victim thinks. Many women in these situations have ties to their abuser that isn't about the pain that they've been put through, and they have enormous amounts of guilt with regard to bringing them to justice, which is why so many victims don't press charges, and why so many abusers go on and do it over and over again. And that doesn't take away what they did and how terrible it is. I don't see what's odd about society judging someone for their actions, and not what the victim thought and wanted and did.
@Party Falcon @thebestjasmine: I just googled and realized that he pled guilty to felony assault, which, for whatever reason, I didn't know. I knew that she didn't cooperate and declined to press charges, but yeah, that doesn't matter. He pled guilty to felony assault against her. Period.
ABC is a different story, but whatever. This guy just keeps walking away unscathed, and it pisses me off, too. And I guess that is what the outrage is really about - wanting him to have consequences for his actions, and I suppose the only way for that to happen is for the audience and industry to reject him.
He is a wretched human being and, again, belongs in jail and treatment.
@Party Falcon It's only wrong if the victim (or "victim" in Swift's case) is white, apparently.
@Megan Patterson@facebook Which wrong? I got lost, I think.
@thebestjasmine what you said. furthermore, wouldn't abuse victims be more likely to seek justice to the fullest extent if they could see that society is on their side, that other people are mad on their behalf, that strangers have got their back?
@karion Again, this doesn't matter, but she did cooperate with the police. She can't decline to press charges in a case like that, though, the police will do it with or without her, but her cooperation did make a difference (without it, he may not have agreed to the plea deal).
@Party Falcon: I missed your direct question - and yes, I do personally know victims of domestic violence, although none in a situation analogous to Rhianna. The women I know were financially dependent on their abusers, and had kids and a home with their abuser, and, sadly, across the board, attempted to continue their relationship with their abuser.
Also across the board was their feeling of culpability in the abuse, which is something I don't think anyone who hasn't been in the situation can understand. I can empathize and imagine, but I don't think I will ever be able to really understand it, and I think I get sidetracked when I try.
I'll stick with empathy and compassion.
@plonk Yes yes yes! I mean, what does it say to abuse victims out there that Chris Brown, who beat up Rihanna that much, got probation? It says that it doesn't matter if you cooperate, people will be mad at you for doing it and trying to "ruin his life," people will say that you deserved it, and it won't really come to anything in the end. Oh, and that your life will likely be in danger because if he can just come right back after you.
@plonk I've gotten the feeling on more than one occasion that Rihanna didn't want to become the poster for domestic violence. She's pretty young and if the press is correct she's still emotionally tied to him/in love with him/secretly dating him. She's just like a lot of other domestic abuse victims, only famous. I remember her voicing concern about his career, which sounds exactly like what someone who is the victim of abuse might do (justification, burying things under the rug). I think some day she might be willing to speak up but breaking out of abusive relationships is hard and sometimes it takes more than one incident to do it. I wish her lots of luck and hope she stays safe
@parallel-lines It's such a shame that she wasn't willing or psychologically able to be a stronger role model on this issue. I'm not BLAMING her, but it would have been a real opportunity to show young women the difference between right and wrong in terms of how you allow yourself to be treated. What a statement it would have made if she had shown up on Ellen or something a few days later with her busted up face and said "THIS is what happens when you don't get help immediately when you're in an abusive relationship". But unfortunately abusive victims can't see it that way. The whole thing is so utterly sad. And if she IS with him again, that's even sadder still. But again, this is not a new story. Charlie Sheen just had the best year of his career.
@plonk This reminds me: remember when Charlie Sheen had his rampage at the Plaza and attacked that porn actress, Capri Anderson? She decided not to sweep things under the rug, and instead chose to get a lawyer, go after him, talk about the incident extensively to the media, etc. And did everyone rally behind Capri Anderson and say, "Yeah, Charlie Sheen needs to go to jail!"? Nope, instead they ripped her to shreds and said that as a porn actress and escort, her word was unreliable, and pretty soon everyone was laughing off Charlie Sheen's antics as, "Oh, that crazy Charlie, what WILL that zany little devil do next?" When in reality, he could've killed that woman, and it honestly wouldn't surprise me if sometime in the next few years he DOES succeed in murdering someone. (It still shocks me that people find his antics hilarious, instead of recognizing that he's got a history of beating - and shooting! - women, and is entirely capable of murder.) So if you compare an incident like that one to the Rihanna and Chris Brown incident, and you look at how so many messed-up people have already victim-blamed Rihanna after the little bit of police cooperation she did engage in, sadly, it's hard to fault her for remaining relatively quiet about the incident. Given how little support from the public women get in these scenarios (look at the DSK situation for another example - as soon as the media got hold of the fact that his alleged rape victim was not a 100% flawless human being, her case was toast), Rihanna likely would've been absolutely dragged through the mud had she made a bigger deal about what Chris Brown did.
@werewolfbarmitzvah People's amusement over the #winning thing and support of a known fucking abuser(a few times over)angers me to this day. Sorry, #winning isn't funny. Beating women, no matter what their profession isn't funny. A father who abuses drugs isn't funny.
@MollyRingwald "We Take Care Of Our Own" Thank Bruce! Whitney and Amy got that one a bit late, but Chris heard it in the front row.
@maevemealone I...don't know what you just said???
@MollyRingwald Hehehehe. It's a funny. Did you see the Springsteen performance at the beginning of the show? It was mostly just Bruce rasping "We take care of our ooowwn" over classic uptempo Springsteen rock.
And then the Grammy's took care of their own, in the undeserving form of Chris Brown.
@Party Falcon I missed Springsteen AND Bonnie Raitt which is totally tragic. Ugh, and now i'm the One Who Needed The Joke Explained.
@thebestjasmine And it's her industry, too. If they're fine with him, does that mean that if she does make a stand about it, she'll be 'causing a fuss' and won't be invited to things, etc, because it's too embarrassing for everyone else? If the industry bodies aren't willing to even acknowledge what he did, that sends a message to her that they don't really care what happened to her, that she needs to be nice and quiet and go away.
Very little causes as much pearl clutching and hand-wretching from me as the youth of today saying that Rihanna "deserved" to get hit. It makes me thing that generation is a lost cause.
Well, that and dubstep.
@parallel-lines OMG the youth, they are frightening! I've now seen two compilations of tweets that make me so, so sad. The day after the Grammys, Buzzfeed released a list of kids tweeting about "who this eff is this old dude Paul McCartney?!?!11"
And last month, during the SOPA blackout on Wikipedia, there was a list of hundreds of tweets from young people (I say this as a 24 yr old) going on about how they can't do homework or pass exams or whatever because wiki is down. And how it's Obama's fault, apparently.
Sigh.
@parallel-lines We're not all horrible. As with most viral scandals,the people with the most ridiculous opinions get the most publicity. I believe he should have been passed around D block (since he committed a crime and all), but as usual nobody listened to me.
@olivebee Twitter seems like a loudspeaker thru which the DUMBEST PEOPLE ALIVE announce their opinions for fellow dummies to high-five and one-up. I really feel like it was created just to terrify the olds.
@wasabi peas "YO but he did his time what do you want from him, huh? Can't people forgive?"
I think people want him to stop being a complete fucking asshole which he's failing at pretty hard.
@parallel-lines There was a great blog post out there somewhere that collected tweets and Facebook status updates during the broadcast where young women wrote variations on "Chris Brown can beat me anytime". I threw up in my mouth a little bit.
@@serenityfound
Here.
@parallel-lines and I believe a stint in prison would have been just the thing to set him straight. Sadly, he doesn't have to stop being an asshole because it hasn't affected his profitability.
@atipofthehat That's it! The person on Twitter who pointed me to it framed it as "Why we shouldn't single out Chris Brown when talking about DV...", which I assume to refer to the fact that we need to tie this into a larger issue not perpetrated only by good looking, highly successful fellas and teach them youngsters that DV is ALWAYS WRONG AND HORRIFIC.
@parallel-lines Right. I wouldn't have as big a problem with it if he showed signs that he knew how horrible what he did was, that he'd never do it again, and he... idk, gave lots of money to women's shelters or something. Instead, the opposite of this.
@serenityfound I am totally ok with people talking about it, no matter how uncomfortable it might make him. It's not like it was a decade ago, and even then, I'm pretty fine with it. I don't understand why people are so much more worried about his fee fees, but not, for eg, all of the many victims of DV that have to listen to this crap. And the perpetrators of it who hear it and get the message that it's nbd.
Can we file this under "Assholes in the News" instead of "Men in the News"?
Because Chris Brown not a man, but a petulant, non-penitent crybaby who thinks beating a woman bloody is a "mistake" and that the world now owes him everything because he got some bullshit certificate proving that he picked up trash on the side of the road.
At the end of the day, my opinion matters little, but I have zero tolerance for him or to the people who swept his shit under the rug.
Oh, and for anyone who needs some righteous anger, read the police report. Mistake, my ass.
@applestoapples
Violence is not the right response to violence, I know, I know. And yet....
@applestoapples I feel the same way as you. I came across a comment today where someone said that because he apologized, he deserved to be forgiven and that people were jealous of his accomplishments...I just CANNOT understand what makes you think someone who has a history of violent behavior, who admitted that he was physically abused as a child and obviously has deep seated anger issues, and who has been caught almost killing people (he put his fingers on Rihanna's arteries so she couldn't breathe!), deserves to be forgiven because he APOLOGIZED. Seriously?!
@hot dog princess One of the things my dad taught me is that a sincere apology has little to no expectation of bringing forgiveness. "Don't say sorry if you think you deserve something in return for it."
Chris Brown shouldn't be thankful for his fans' forgiveness because he didn't earn an ounce of it, and yet he feels he's owed it from everyone. That Rihanna chose to forgive him in whatever capacity is another story, but I give her the benefit of the doubt and choose to assume that she did it out of pity for his foolish self-imposed victimhood.
@hot dog princess
"who admitted that he was physically abused as a child"
THIS PART IS NOT HIS FAULT
@applestoapples I agree! I mean, there are people with the same issues he has who go to therapy and counseling for YEARS and still cannot overcome their problems. Because Chris goes "oh, sorries!" and then does something violent like a month later and does a little probation he deserves to be forgiven?! It makes no sense.
@atipofthehat I wasn't trying to imply that him being physically abused was his fault. I was just saying that he obviously already has established a violent behavior pattern and probably has deep seated psychological trauma, and a simple apology comes nowhere close to changing any of that.
@hot dog princess
His history is not his fault, but the responsibility for dealing with is absolutely his.
Unfortunately, many abuse victims are late to taking this responsibility because of the very symptoms of the fallout of what they've been through (PTSD, for example). So, it's a situation where a person to whom unforgivable things have been done (for which the victim has no fault) grows up to do unforgivable things to others (for which there is no excuse).
I think apology is a good place to start, but there has to be therapy and a longish recovery and significant change.
Instead, this incident is for many people just part of his mystique. Chris: if you like punching people, try this guy.
@atipofthehat I agree. I do not think him being abused as a child was his fault at all, and I think it's really sad that someone did that to him. However he has total responsibility for his actions and obviously how he's been dealing with his problems is not right at all. So it's just too much for me when people say him apologizing should somehow mean everything is fine.
@applestoapples I'd never actually read the details of what had happened before. God, that just makes me so tired and sad. I wish I could summon up anger.
@atipofthehat I was thinking something more like this.
@applestoapples Thank you for linking to the police report. I'm done questioning Rihanna. I don't know what's going on in the aftermath, but the way she protected herself during the assault was amazing. She did everything right. We should all do so well.
Would you know to fake-call police (over a voicemail message, leading your assailant to believe police were waiting for you at home), "interlace [your] fingers behind your head and bring your elbows forward to protect your face, bend at the waist to bring your head toward your lap for protection from punches, text your assistant, steal his keys, be placed in a headlock, begin to lose consciousness, gouge his eyes, turn your back against the dooor, bend your knees and kick him in the chest, all while being punched and bit?
'Cause I'm not sure I'd protect myself as well as she did. It's been a shitty "day for America, everybody" in terms of gender politics.
ugh ugh ugh why why why gross gross gross.
i don't think it sucks to be him. he hasn't shown an ounce of remorse or anything that warrants sympathy. what does suck though, is being the victims of the consequences of his and his supporters' actions.
ugh gross forever.
I love when people defend his grammy appearance by saying, "We can't demonize him forever! What the hell do you want from him?! Doesn't he eventually deserve to move on too, and have a career?"
And I'm like.....I would like some shred of decency or remorse or understanding of the gravity of his actions? A little bit? A bitsy bit?
@Third Wave Housewife Exactly! For the people who are "over" Chris Brown-hating, do they know how he has acted since? Zero remorse, zero acknowledgment of culpability, multiple violent anger outbursts. Hm.
@julia If anything all he's done is look smug and gloaty (?) about it. He's whatever the opposite of sorry and remorseful is. Gross.
@Third Wave Housewife But he's making his comeback! From, you know, that time when people stopped liking him for ...mumble mumble... Everyone makes mistakes but he's so talented!
eugh eugh eugh eugh eugh
@Third Wave Housewife
This is the argument that always fills me with rage when applied to unrepentant (but economically useful to someone) scum like Chris Brown and the various professional athlete/felons out there.
Try being a non-celebrity convicted of a crime who has served his time, is genuinely remorseful, and trying to get a job while out on parole.
@City_Dater excellent point.
@Third Wave Housewife
"Doesn't he eventually deserve to move on too, and have a career?"
Absolutely, assuming he works hard to earn the trust of those around him. Does he deserve to resume his career as a public figure? Absofuckinglutely nevernot-no. He deserves to start over again and work his way up in some other career out of the public life. Chris Brown *deserves* to be rich and famous again for picking up trash on the side of the road? Hell, I volunteer for funzies. Can I be rich and famous too? I adopted a dog from a rescue group! I help my grandma read her mail! I got some merit badges in the Girl Scouts! I want a Grammy.
@Diana
I do think redemption is possible. But it has to be so thoroughly earned....
@atipofthehat Do we know of any celebrities/public figures who have done something abhorrent like this and earned public redemption? Like, really earned it? (Not a hypothetical question!)
I'm just SO glad the Grammy Awards decided to recognize the musical genius of an album featuring such tracks as "Wet The Bed", instead of giving the trophy for "Best R&B Album" to a strong female role model like Ledisi. That would have been THE WORST, right?
@Joseph John Sanchez III Seriously, the album has a track called "Wet The Bed"? Yikes.
One of the worst things about the reaction to Chris Brown to me is that it shows how much woman, and particularly black women, are devalued in our society. Beat up a black girl, she must have deserved it, he should get a second chance, it's no big deal. Yet, as someone above said, Kanye interrupts pretty little white blonde Taylor Swift, and he's ostracized.
@thebestjasmine Yes.
@thebestjasmine Amen! ALSO HE WAS RIGHT, BEYONCE WAS ROBBED! And I'm not even a huge Beyonce supporter,or tolerant of Kanye's outbursts but I can't stand Taylor Swift's vapid anti feminist and cliche music. Single Ladies was amazing choreography and once of the catchiest songs of the year.
So yeah, not classy of Kanye, but he wasn't wrong. He was bearing witness as the Quakers would say.
Also I think it's absurd that "the industry" would willingly blacklist people like the Dixie Chicks for opposing a war or whatever, but beat a woman? Who cares? I mean, she was even AN ARTIST HERSELF, which it seems like... maybe she has to or would want to go to the grammys? So its work related too- her ability to safely enjoy her workspace is compromised by how they basically gave her attacker "Employee of the Month".
@thebestjasmine While I agree with most of your point, I do think a lot had to do with their stage personas. Taylor Swift plays up being this aw-shucks down-home virginal girl, while Rihanna is sexual and provocative with pretty hard edge. So in addition to race, there's a definite level of slut-shamey prejudice that colors (ugh, no pun intended) the disparity between the backlash against Kanye but not to Chris Brown.
@ilikemints Well sure, but that's because Taylor Swift is white and Rihanna is black. Black girl pop stars are sexualized much more than white girl pop stars. Taylor Swift has kept her persona as a down home virginal girl even though she dated John Mayer, and Rihanna is just a ho. Yes, Rihanna has an edge and Taylor doesn't, but black girls don't become pop stars without getting sexualized, not anymore.
@thebestjasmine I don't know if I agree with you completely. I do think there's definitely a racial element in terms of people's outrage over the interruption/beating issues, but I don't think black pop artists (or any artists for that matter) are "sexualized". When Taylor Swift goes to shoot a magazine cover, and Rihanna (Or Britney, or other "sexy" stars) goes to shoot a magazine cover, they both have the same choice as to whether or not they'll take their clothes off. This isn't about an image the PUBLIC puts on the ARTIST, these are choices these women make. And i'm not saying that making sure there's a plump ass shot in every shoot you do is a BAD thing, but it is a CHOICE. And that choice has obvious effects on whether people see you as a "Sexy" artist or a virginal one.
All of that being said, I don't care if you wear a snowsuit or a g-string in your music video, no one should beat the shit out of you and think it's ok, and the public shouldn't think it's MORE ok that a sexy chick was beat up than a virginal one.
I was just saying that the way we perceive people isn't a one-sided issue. People put aspects of themselves out there to be perceived in a certain way.
@MollyRingwald They absolutely do not have the same choices, and no, those women do not have choices. They are marketed, and they have people who make those decisions for them. Their choices are "are you going to be on the cover of this magazine or not?" "also, if you say no, you'll get dropped from your label." Those are not legitimate choices, they are not making those decisions.
And really, you don't know if black pop artists are sexualized? They are so blatantly sexualized that I don't even understand how someone could not acknowledge that. Every photo shoot, every song that they're given, every video plays into those images, and those images are created for these girls and young women (because they are often in their teens and early twenties).
@MollyRingwald Hmmm. I think for a lot of black female pop artists, the choice as to whether or not to adopt a sexy image in order to truly be seen as a success in the industry is not really one at all.
Sure, they can opt for non-sexy, but the bottom line is they won't be selling enough records to be considered competitively viable in the pop market. If you can name any high-selling, modern black female artist who has not experienced a degree of sexualization (besides Alicia Keys, and even she has had a minimal amount) and whose familiarity is on par with the likes of Taylor Swift, I'd be surprised.
@applestoapples I mean I don't think Beyonce has over-sexed herself for her public image. When was the last time she was in a magazine bent over and licking her fingers? And again, NOT THAT BENDING OVER AND LICKING YOUR FINGERS IS BAD (although, can we all agree to maybe stop the licking the fingers? Which like goes triple for Blake Lively??)but it's certainly a choice.
That being said, I can't name too many white artists on par with Taylor Swift who don't almost show their nipples in magazines either.
I understand the racial argument for why people have reacted the way they have to chris's beating versus kanye's interrupting, but I'm not understanding the race/sexy thing. In fact, black women at least have the option of marketing themselves as tough. When was the last time a white woman got to have a "don't fuck with me" persona? And so I don't think it's a race issue at all. I think it's a woman issue. Sexism overshadows racism to me here.
@MollyRingwald Really? Because have you seen the videos for "Baby Boy" and "Dance For You"? Beyonce does own her sexuality on a level, but there's no denying that her on-stage persona IS highly sexual, significantly more so than the average woman. She doesn't need to be grossly explicit about it for that to be true.
And yes, sexism might be the bigger picture here, but race as it pertains to the perception of female sexuality is a very valid sub-argument that a lot of people don't address. bell hooks has written a ton on the subject.
@MollyRingwald Also, please, next time you want to say that sexism overshadows racism, please read this first.
@thebestjasmine I don't think sexism overshadows racism in All Walks Of Life, I'm saying that I feel sexism overshadows racism in this case.
@applestoapples Agreed those videos are sexy, but still not as explicit as other Sexy Artists. I think Beyonce is a beautiful and sexy woman, and I think she owns it and knows it, but I don't think it's the focus. And maybe that's the point, maybe it's what the focus becomes for some of these artists with somewhat less talent who are basically all image....THAT is something to ruminate on.
@MollyRingwald It's not a contest as to who is more in-your-face with their sexuality. Being a successful artist these days is ALL about image, and the fact is that black female artists today have to use a sexual image to push a lot of records to keep up with their white counterparts.
I'm not denying that a lot of white female artists are sexualized, too, but Taylor Swift, Adele, Pink, Avril Lavigne and others don't have to rely on a overtly sexualized image to be hugely successful. Take away Beyonce's perceived sexiness, and you've essentially removed a large part of her schtick.
@MollyRingwald Yes, and what I am telling you is that it is never a battle between whether sexism overshadows racism when the issue is a black woman. Because sexism and racism go hand in hand those times.
@MollyRingwald I may have a choice regarding whether or not to dress sexy on any given day, but as a minority I'm faced with the reality that often times the reason I receive negative attention from men is a direct result of harmful stereotypes inflicted upon us in the media. That is, when we are actually represented. I honestly question on a regular basis if a man is staring at me because I am just a sexual object to him. An exotic fetish. That is an issue of both sexism and racism.
Minorities are not valued the same way their white counterparts are and do not have the same choices.
"In fact, black women at least have the option of marketing themselves as tough. When was the last time a white woman got to have a "don't fuck with me" persona?"
All the time? As they choose! Black women are classified under the "angry black woman" stereotype whether they like it or not, it is hardly an advantage.
@thebestjasmine Just wanted to add that I do agree with you that the race issue is paramount on the Rihanna/Taylor thing. I just wanted to point out that had it been a white pop star in the same vein as Rihanna (in terms of blatant sexuality, like Britney Spears) that got interrupted, I don't think that the backlash would have been as pronounced as it was with Swift. Girl works hard to maintain a squeaky clean image no matter how many famous juiceboxes she dates. So the message ends up being Taylor's just a nice girl who's unlucky in love and Rihanna's super trampy (although I hope we all realize how fucking untrue and awful this idea is).
I also acknowledge that sexualization of black women artists and the limitations they're given in how they can market themselves is ultimately the root of the problem here. So I guess my larger point would be that it's stereotypes against women, race, and sex working in tandem instead of one or the other.
@MollyRingwald I went back and read what you first wrote, and we definitely agree that no matter what, you shouldn't get to be violent towards someone and then get an award, which I think was the most crucial part of what you said.
But the second part about what thebestjasmine is saying I think is that Taylor Swift isn't necessarily "innocent" or "sweet" simply because her stage persona is. And Rihanna could possibly be a very demure person in real life. But for some reason the two women got DEEPLY different responses from their industry when someone "attacked" them. Taylor Swift, who was rudely interrupted and had her work disparaged by a black male artist in a public award ceremony was supported by disapproval of the crowd. Rihanna who was physically beaten by another black male artist, got to watch him get an award celebrating his work, literally being made to watch her peers and coworkers endorse him as an artist. While we can argue both attacks are in some way tied to sexism (would Kanye have felt as free to interrupted a male artist getting an award he disagreed with? We'll never know, as he's never done) are wildly different in terms of being things someone can and should withstand. One is merely rude, the other attack is actually criminal and violent.
So the disparity of the attacks must stem from either 1. That people don't care as much about domestic violence as they do about public rudeness. Or 2. That Taylor Swift as a person was more worth defending. I suspect that both are true in our society, and I think that the second part is really about racism. And I think it really does behoove us to listen when someone says that they think something is racist. Especially because sexism and racism intersect. If someone says to you, "I see this intersecting, and I think there's a strong racial component to how black female artists are treated" I don't think there's a real reason to argue that it's actually more sexist and less racist, except possibly your own discomfort with racism allegations. Which is like when a guy says to me, "do we always have to see things through sexist lenses?" The answer is, "YES. Just because you are tired of being forced to see sexism, doesn't mean I get to take my woman glasses off and just be in the majority." So if someone sees something through a racial lens, I generally think you need to listen to them, because they're probably someone who can't take those glasses off, and can't JUST see sexism, because they don't have that luxury. Generally the people who stand up and freely proclaim "not everything is racist/sexist/ableist!" are those of us benefiting from the system that is those things and feeling uncomfortable.
As a black female artist, Rhianna is the most "othered" of artists in America she could possibly be without being gay as well. She has to work 4 times as hard as a white male pop star to get half the respect, and the way she was treated as someone who dealt with domestic abuse reveals that.
@MollyRingwald The idea that black women as a whole can market themselves as tough is problematic as well. This idea originates from slavery times when black women were expected to endure all kinds of horrors, yet remain stoic and deal with it silently. Along with the link thebestjasmine sent along, I highly recommend Sister Citizen by Melissa Harris-Perry.
@E I think that's very astute of you and yes, I agree. It wasn't my intention to really argue whether sexism or racism was more present, I was just trying to say that, for me, the tones of sexism rang more clearly in this case than with the race part. And yes, sexism and racism often go hand in hand as both are an issue of societal value and fear.
People (the internet) keep bringing up the notion that if Chris Brown had been more publicly remorseful, it would have been easier to forgive him. But I think that, too misses the point. The point isn't that Chris beat the shit out of someone and got no penalty....he did get penalized - the courts punished him. The point is that 1)This was an ongoing problem that went ignored until it came to a head at a public event and 2)Everyone acted at first as though this was shocking and then sort of accepted it because "these things do happen".
Domestic violence has become so ordinary in our culture, and more so in pockets of communities within our culture, that we no longer see it as egregious. Sure, it was BAD, but to everyone (including the grammy association) it wasn't that big a deal that we couldn't just move past it.
That couldn't have been the first time Rihanna's friends or family saw the effects of Chris's abuse, right? It was only when she got caught as a victim that he got caught as an abuser. This, for me, is the most upsetting part. That it wasn't until this dirty laundry aired was anyone willing to help her get out from under him.
@matisse I've actually read an excerpt from that after a friend and I got into a discussion on the shared stereotype our cultures have (Strong/Tough Black Woman and Strong/Pushy Jewish Woman). We agreed both are rooted in enslavement, secret sexual assault by white men and the forced separation of Black/Jewish men from their families, leaving the Black/Jewish women to have to play both nurturing and survival roles in their families.
Terrific read, and a great addition to this comment thread!
With his Grammy wins, Chris Brown thus enters into the collector's playing card pack of "Famous Men Whose Woman-Hating Behavior Is Excused Because They Are, Like, So Talented." Collect all ONE HUNDRED MILLION. (UGH)
@Katie Heaney i propose that in these discussions we replace the adjective "talented" with "good at their jobs." sounds a lot less glamorous.
(being good at your job is something to be proud of, but not if you're terrible at being a human being.)
@Katie Heaney Bonus points if you can chalk up their horrible behavior to "artistic temperament".
@Katie Heaney I mean, I would be happy to have an art vs. artist conversation - an artist's work can still be great even if the artist is horrible. But this isn't the conversation that's happening. And even if it were, well, I don't think I'd be on the 'it's all fine' side. I'm not with Polanski. For me, the artist is part of the art, and can sour it with asshat actions.
They talk about this on Pop Culture Happy Hour a lot.
Ughhhh what a deplorable human being. Ever since he beat up Rihanna hearing his name alone makes me livid. Unfortunately, I have a "friend" who, whenever I talk about how much I hate Chris Brown, always responds with "uh, yeah but other musicians do illegal stuff too, why don't you boycott them?" I'm sorry dude, jail time for drugs/weapons/whatever will never come close in my eyes to what he did to Rihanna.
@matisse For sure. There's a huge difference between crimes against the law and crimes against people. Smoke pot or don't, it doesn't affect me any. But beat me or don't? No. Nope. Nope. Violence is no.
I have a real problem with enjoying the work of men who are despicable, and honestly, I'm not sure what to do about it.
@Lily Rowan Honestly, I think there's a lot to be said for just making it known when you can. Because so much of the problem with this situation is that people are not willing to say, at any juncture, this is not acceptable. This is not something to ignore. This is not something we should forget. Having him at the Grammys was an endorsement. It is important to say that despite what the majority of people may be saying or doing, this is not how things should be.
@Lily Rowan
Could you please clarify? Two ways that could be taken.
@atipofthehat I like Chris Brown songs. I like Bing Crosby movies. I laughed at Mike Tyson in The Hangover. I liked The Hangover! But I don't discount any of what those guys have done.
@leastimportantperson I am definitely willing to say his actions are not acceptable, and he should not be celebrated as a person. But can I still sing along to "No Air"??
@Lily Rowan: I know exactly what you mean because, you know, Wagner.
@Lily Rowan I can at least take joy in the fact that Axl Rose is fat now, right?
@Lily Rowan so with chris brown, his yeah 3x times song which was one of the first he put out after the whole incident is like an insanely catchy song.
and I used to turn it off every time I heard it come on the radio because ugh chris brown, you are gross. but then it would be stuck in my head all the time and it was like the forbidden fruit that the more you want to hate it and not listen to it, the catchier and catchier it gets.
so i downloaded it (illegally? does that help at all? ugh my weak ass justifications) and let myself listen to it and eh, now i don't have it stuck in my head all the time anymore!
so i commiserate, is what i'm saying here.
@Slapfight :(
@Bittersweet At least Wagner's dead now.
@Craftastrophies I know. It was a terrible joke about a terrible person. I'm not proud of it. Mocking someone's weight is generally not my style, I swear.
Axl's just so awful but I still love GNR!!! Help me!
@Slapfight Well, he probably hates it, so while being fat is not a punishment, it might be for him. In which case, GOOD. GOOD I say!
@Craftastrophies Agreed! I apologize for any offense my stupid insensitive comment may have caused. Body shaming's never cool. Not even for Axl.
@Slapfight I wasn't offended, I felt fine as soon as I knew you knew, if that makes any sense. :)
It's hard not to want to apply all the shaming, though.
@Craftastrophies @Slapfight There's enough shame in just being Axl, isn't there??
My favorite part about this story is that his rep doesn't think he'd say something so stupid. Because he's great at making decisions generally.
People who loathe him are accused of being racist, and I'm really not sure why. Perhaps he gets more attention because he's more high profile than a lot of people, like Ben Roethlisberger, or Julian Assange, or Michael Vick. Assange is already a criminal, but those others don't deserve the careers they have either. At least Vick had the sense to seem remoresful for a little while, though as of late he's proved that's bullshit.
Brown seems to have a lot more people on his side than Mel Gibson.
It's the complete and utter lack of remorse that's so offensive. Why would he learn his lesson? In the grand sceme of things, his actions seem to have little consequence.
@Slapfight I think that it's not that people who loathe him are racist, no. But it is racist that he gets such a different reaction than white men who have done the same thing. This is absolutely not to say that people should not have that reaction toward him, it's to say that a) people feel freer to hate black men than they do white men for doing the same thing, especially when it's a violent crime b) the reaction to the white men SHOULD be and is not that strong.
@thebestjasmine That makes sense. I can't for the life of me figure out why Charlie Sheen still has a career(ish). He should be in prison, not being roasted on Comedy Central.
I *do* wonder if the reaction to Chris Brown is also so strong because the details were so public? I mean every horrific detail, with pictures. The internet has made it almost impossible for anything to be hidden these days. Stars aren't afforded the luxury of spinning things away like they used to. Rihanna's a (bigger) star in her own right, so she couldn't be bought or silenced as much as a less high profile victim.
@Slapfight I feel like the fact that Charlie Sheen still has a (strong) career is kind of the key to the whole thing. Like, that's what really really really happens in real life. I mean, sirens, alarm bells, HELLO EVERYONE. This is the reality!
@thebestjasmine Right. The line for me is that I don't think ANYONE, black or white, is getting ostracised enough. But the fact that Brown only gets it a little bit and white people not at all is... confusing coming and going. I mean, I am totally down with the comparatively little social shaming he gets, but not that Sheen, for eg, gets even less. But then shaming Brown less doesn't seem to help even out, over all?
This is a really great point about the whole situation: http://guerrillamom.blogspot.com/2012/02/boy-are-we-pissed-but-not-at-chris.html
I realize that this is totally ineloquent, but as there's some fantastic discussion upthread all I need to add is this:
SET HIM ON FIRE
@The Everpresent Wordsnatcher To facilitate this, how about making him wear a crinoline? Except, apparently, that's also deadly to people around him. Hmm.