Do This No. 6: Festive Holiday Boundary-Setting
HI EVERYONE!
Where have I been? Getting divorced and thus ripping through TV shows on Netflix (<3 u, Veronica Mars) while imagining myself getting so fat eating chocolate pudding cups that I wouldn't be able to get out of bed and the foils would stick to my naked body. So, covered in existential pudding foils. As it were. I KNOW YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Did you miss me??
Are you planning a Winter Solstice journey to your ancestral home (and/or your parents' condo in Florida and/or your main squeeze's parents' house), and you are trembling at the thought of how you might handle the horrible, horrible things that people will say to you in the guise of being your Loved Ones who Care About You? I am here to help. By which I mean, when I went to visit my grandma after Thanksgiving she started telling me how horrible my skin looked within two hours of my getting there and, after breakfast at Friendly's the next day, dragged me bodily to the Clinique counter to be humiliated by a pseudo-medical pseudo-professional with flawless middle-age skin who sold me five different acne-concealing products. Chill, right? So I have obviously thought a lot about how to handle these things. So. Herewith, a Holiday Guide to Setting Boundaries!
1. You do not have to accept unkind treatment from anyone, whether or not they gave birth to you and/or helped you pay for college and/or __________________.
This is so important! And so true! You don't have to listen to bullshit about your skin or your weight or your sexuality or your job or your marriage or your reproductive status or your tattoos or your hair or your clothes or ANYTHING ELSE. YOU DON'T!!!!1! I know you're probably thinking, "Yeahhhh, girl, but you don't UNDERSTAND my special CIRCUMSTANCES, because if I don't _____________, then my ____________ might not ______________ anymore!" And that might be true, but you need to understand that you really do have a choice here, even if the consequences of your choices seem difficult or impossible to accept. You don't have to let anyone shit on you, verbally or otherwise (unless it's consensual), as long as you're willing to accept the consequences that come with setting a firm boundary. So yes, maybe you feel like you're not in a position to challenge Uncle Harry's uninvited opinions on the wisdom of pursuing a PhD in the humanities. And that's fine. But if you see it as a choice you're making, you're way less likely to spend the holidays feeling like a victim. Or you can go into the Boxing Day festivities with a plan in mind for taking care of yourself and your inevitably hurt feelings.
2. You won't ruin anyone's holiday. And you don't have to suffer in order to make sure everyone has a good Christmas. Everyone will survive if they are uncomfortable for a few minutes. You deserve to enjoy the time you spend with your family, as ridiculous a proposition as that may seem. You do not automatically ruin Christmas dinner or make someone cry by asserting yourself. Asking for what you need is not an imposition, and you aren't responsible for anyone else's reaction. Your goal is to gently but firmly set a boundary with whoever it is on whatever subject, and you can do this by not raising your voice, appearing calm no matter what happens, being kind, and just letting the inevitable awkward moment pass as gracefully as possible. (You probably shouldn't get tanked if you're going to try this. So maybe get tanked afterward?)
There are a couple of ways to do this:
a) "I'm just fine!": This is where you just tell someone that you think you're fine the way you are. You just deliver this line every time someone starts to ask you whether you've gained weight. "You know," you say gently but cheerfully, "I think I'm just fine the way I am!" or "I'm happy with myself as I am!" or "I really like myself and the way I look!" That may or may not be true, but they don't need to know that. If you're with one of those people who just keeps bringing up a sore subject even after you've asked them not to, just keep repeating this, without escalating or raising your voice, until they let it go.
b) "I'm not going to talk about this.": This is where you tell someone that you don't want to, and are not going to, talk about whatever it is that they're bringing up. You can take someone aside to do this or you can quietly get their attention when it's happening. Here is something that happened to me at a holiday dinner, at a table of 10 people, mostly strangers:
One of the hosts started making jokes about how prisoners make wine out of fruit cups they set aside and ferment in their cells. (Uh.) This invited further jokes from other guests about various imagined foibles of prison life. As this went on, I started clutching my ladyfriend's hand hard enough to leave little nail marks, and I was all set to grin and bear it, but then I realized that I would have just gotten more and more upset and left the very nice dinner party flipping my SHIT. So I leaned over, put on a super-apologetic face, and said, "Excuse me, Matt? Matt?" [Matt looks at me] "I know you had NO way of knowing this, but my brother is going to prison next month and hearing jokes about it is really hard for me. Can we change the subject?" and then leaned back to my place and went back to my delicious rustic plum tart. Yes, everyone was embarrassed for about 30 seconds, but I just smiled pleasantly and turned to involve myself in another conversation and everyone had moved on.
So how do you use this? If your brother-in-law asks you in front of everyone what REALLY happened when you got fired in June, you say, firmly but kindly, "You know what? I am really enjoying being here with everyone and I really don't want or need to discuss this today. I'd really appreciate it if we could talk about something else." Or if your mom harangues you about your clothing (my mom had a bizarre idea that tank tops made me look "like a whore"?), you can talk to her before your visit or privately when you arrive and just tell her, "Ma, I really don't want to talk about my clothes with you while I'm here, okay? I know you don't like how I dress, but I really just want to have a fun Hanukkah visit with you." You might follow up with, "This isn't a topic for discussion." Or "I make my own choices about this." Or "I'll let you know if I want to talk about it."
The tricky part is that…
3. You might have to be ready to back up your words with action. Sometimes people don't respect the boundaries that you set.
You can let people know that you won't or can't stay if they can't respect you. Tell your parents you're staying in a hotel to avoid all of this altogether. Or let your grandma know that if she keeps referring to your partner by the wrong name or pronoun, you'll both need to leave.
Or you might have to be ready to gracefully excuse yourself, either taking a break from the action or leaving altogether. You don't have to make this a scene, either. Instead of panicking in the moment and slamming out of the house, walk through a possible escape route. Before you go wherever it is you're going, figure out how you can leave if you need to. Can you drive your own car, rent a car, or make sure you have a bus or train schedule and some cash with you? Can someone come pick you up? Is there a room you can excuse yourself to where you can cry/read a book/troll Hairpin comments for comrades in arms? Do you have a friend you can go get a drink with or stay with? Are you traveling with someone who will need to leave with you? Talk to your boyfriend/girlfriend/best friend/husband/wife/partner/college roommate or whoever you're going to be attending soirees with about what you want to do, and what they want to do, if you need to excuse yourselves.
And then do it. Leave after the meal's over, if you can. Tell everyone goodbye kindly and warmly, as you would if you were leaving under ordinary circumstances. And then peace out, remembering that…
4. How people react is up to them. It's not your fault or your responsibility. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to be criticized or picked apart or shamed. There is nothing wrong with asking for respect. You're responsible for your own behavior, not theirs. Period. Exclamation point!
5. If you want, you can follow up later with a note or a phone call where you let your Cousin Sadie know that you're so sorry that you had to leave early, but that you were feeling uncomfortable and unhappy. You love her and enjoy her company, but you can't have a good time with her when she keeps asking you whether you're infertile. Happy New Year, etc.
And for confidence, 6. Do a bold lip.
Merry Happy, everyone, and just remember: it's all fodder for the multi-volume memoir.
Previously: Gifts That Keep on Giving.
Simone Eastman is a cat lady.
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Yes.
Oh I did miss you! Was thinking the other day about how much I enjoyed your columns.
@julia Me too! I was thinking I could do with one of these the other day. What with this and AHP's Christmas Movie post, the Hairpin is granting all my wishes this week!
@rayray I AM PINOCHLE
@Edith Zimmerman I AM PINOCHLE
@julia @rayray AHHH THANK YOU
Thank you for this! I'm going to my parents' for Christmas and steeling myself for the comments about my weight loss, though I have often made it clear I do not want to discus my weight AT ALL.
@ginalouise YESSSSSS. I do not want to hear a single word about my body or appearance, positive or negative, ever. And yet, it is always a major subject.
@ginalouise Gahhhhh, yes. Back when I was chubby, I used to have to hear OPINIONS about it on a steady enough basis. Then, once I hit my 20s, I lost a substantial amount of weight. Now the running commentary from my mom is even worse than it was when I was chubby! If I have to hear any more accusations of anorexia this holiday season, or assertions that I apparently "don't like food" (I loves the foods! All of the foods!), I don't know what's going to happen, but it may involve me inhaling a whole pumpkin pie in one sitting while singing "I don't see nothing wrooooooong/With a little pumpkin pi-i-ie" to the tune of "Bump 'n Grind," just to prove a point.
@ginalouise For some reason, people seem to think that comments like, "You have lost SO much weight!" are okay because… they're technically compliments, I guess? But, man, the implication is pretty awful: "Wow, you used to be super fat! Good thing you're not anymore!"
@Third Wave Housewife EXACTLY THIS. I have tried several times to explain to my mother that due (in part) to her years of commenting on my appearance, I developed an eating disorder. If I gain weight, then it is comments about my weight gain and how I'd be "perfect" if I lost weight or "even prettier." If I lose weight then it is comments about how great I look and how I just need to lose a bit more but then not too much! My family is wonderful and supportive in almost every other way, but this is a constant struggle for me.
@Dancersize Plus, people have no idea why you lost weight. Maybe you didn't even WANT to but you had a medical problem or are dealing with depression or god knows what.
@ginalouise People who developed eating disorders partially in response to well-meaning commentary unite! I finally managed to get my mom to accept that all conversations about weight are off-limits unless initiated by me (rare), but her eyes never stray far from my waist. Maybe I'll come to Xmas in a muumuu this year.
@KeLynn Yeah, I'm meeting my boyfreind's family for the first time this Christmas which is terrifying enough, but at least I won't have to hear all the comments on how I'm wasting away and I should ingest something other than booze and maybe just "get over" the very very bad depressive episode I'm in the midst of.
@KeLynn As someone who has been uncontrollably losing weight for about two years due to a really bad case of mono and a subsequent lack of any immune system whatsoever, I approve of this message.
@Knows The Spanish Panic Hurray (?)
@Knows The Spanish Panic It is literally one of, if not the first thing, my mom mentions. "Wow! You have lost SO much weight!" Never realizing the lengths to which I have gone in order to lose that weight before visiting her.
@ginalouise I'm a stress non-eater (if that makes sense? stress and anxiety makes me feel ill, and I have to fight my gag reflex to actually eat some damn solids) and it's been a rough year so I've lost weight, and seemed to develop some anxieties around eating in public, or if I skip a meal ('Oh God no, it's happening again!' etc etc). Fun. My immediate family are angels sent from heaven, so it's the random family friends who will drop by when I'm around that I have to look out for, getting up in my grill about me looking 'better with curves' or loudly questioning why I didn't finish my meal. Splendid.
@KeLynn I can't thank you enough for this. It's amazing how, in the midst of dealing with cancer (for instance) people will still say to the person who's dealing, "Wow! You've lost so much weight! It looks great!" (Which is a different thing from saying, "Wow! You look great!" which can come with its own set of problems, but anyhow.)
@ginalouise Yuck, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I'm not sure what black magic finally convinced my mom to stop remarking, but here's hoping it works on yours too.
@Knows The Spanish Panic Ooh ooh me too. I've mostly trained my dad to stop commenting on what and when and how much I eat, at least.
I found a good solution to this problem was to be as blunt with people as they were being with me. "wow! you lost so much weight!"
"thanks! I had a nervous breakdown!"
end of conversation.
@Mingus_Thurber The nerve of people. Seriously.
@Lucia Martinez YES. Same thing happened to me a few years ago. I had to take a horrible job and was just barely scraping by. As in, it was a good thing stress makes me lose my appetite because I couldn't afford groceries anyway. I looked like hell, especially since I didn't need to lose weight in the first place. Well, a friend of a friend wouldn't stop commenting on my weight loss. After trying to delicately change the subject each time (and failing), I finally got fed up with her asking how I "lost all that weight" and said
"Stress and poverty did the trick. I wasn't actually trying to lose weight, but thanks for thinking that I needed to."
The look on her face was worth it.
@ohgodtheglitter I did something like that, too, to someone who greeted me with, "Wow, you look great! You're almost skinny!" I turned on her, smiled sweetly, and said, "Yes, three months of severe depression and a week of panic will do that!" She shut right up.
To make this worse, I should note that she did this to me 5 minutes before my dissertation defense, when I was already jittery; that she knew that the cause of the panic was dissertation-related; and that she was on my examining committee. She's lucky I didn't pick her up and snap her like a twig.
ETA: also, to the (portly, hair-colored-that-doesn't-occur-in-nature) aunt who told me, "you look great! I've never seen you this skinny!" I retorted, "Good to know I was fat and ugly before." And got lecture (at age 35) from my parents as a result.
@ginalouise But gee, have you tried to just think more positive thoughts? (Solidarity)
@ginalouise I'd finally managed to wean myself off an evil antidepressant/antianxiety med I'd been on for years that had caused weight gain and showed up at Christmas 25lbs lighter than the previous year. This prompted my husband's (not at all small) aunt to say, "Oh, so it was the drug that was making you so fat?"
People should just never open their mouths EVER.
It's hard for me to prepare in advance, because my Grandma has sort of a Surrealist approach to Family Nagging. It is always impossible to predict what she'll be going on about in advance. My best guesses for this year are "Why haven't you gone on that free trip to Israel?", "Don't you want me to buy you some nicer clothes, maybe some skirts instead of jeans?" or "Are you sure you don't want to go to law school?", but those are really just the standards. No telling what she'll come up with.
@paddlepickle Confession: part of the reason I went to law school was to mitigate some of the holiday family bullshit because they have less to nag me about now. And my mom stopped nagging me about my weight when I finally lost my shit at her and yelled "I have PCOS and feel like shit all the time and have no control over my fucking body, so why don't you fucking stop it and be supportive?" in a Bloomingdale's fitting room. So now we bake cookies together, she tells me my boobs look nice in my sweater, and she nags my brother.
@paddlepickle Your grandmother sounds like she'd really like my grandmother! My Grandma likes to announce what types of medication her grandchildren (and their various spouses and ex-spouses) are on,, at any given time. When she was introduced to a now-ex, in response to "nice to meet you" she said "thank you" and nothing further.
@S. Elizabeth Cysters unite! But seriously, it sucks.
@KeLynn It sucks like a dyson.
@S. Elizabeth So, question: Dysons suck pretty well, and for some models, suck better than a Hoover. So if something is really and truly awful, should we say "it sucks like a Dyson," because Dysons suck so well and efficiently; or should we say "it sucks like a Hoover," because sometimes Hoovers suck at…well, sucking?
@Xanthophyllippa There was a French intern in the office last summer and I tried to teach her lots of common (and not so common) phrases in English, including "this sucks like a Hoover." But she was French and so it ended up being "Thees sucks-like ahn 'Ooovehhhhr."
Dysons are better at sucking and the juicebox dude on all of the commercials just adds to it. Sucks like a juicebox? You suck a juicebox… I mean… nevermind.
How people react is up to them. It's not your fault or your responsibility.
If I remember 2011 for anything, it will be as the Year I Accepted That It's Not All My Fault.
"Or you might have to be ready to gracefully excuse yourself, either taking a break from the action or leaving altogether."
But what if it's in your house/apartment (say 1 bedroom apartment), and there's nowhere to go except your bedroom?
@bookworm time for a walk!
@bookworm To the corner deli! You've just run out of [cream/sugar/duct tape/toilet paper/anything at all] right? At least it gets you outside for some fresh air.
@bookworm I once…."hid in" has a negative connotation that I don't necessarily mean….decamped to my bathroom while someone who upset me deeply put his pants on and left my (NYC studio) apartment "faster". Plus, bedrooms generally have fire escapes and if the situation is totally awful, you can just flee entirely.
@bookworm even in your own house you are allowed to excuse yourself to the bathroom/to get another drink/ to whatever.
@hulia "I have to head to the corner deli. I have just run out of patience."
@bookworm – Pre-set your bedroom with some books or magazines, candles, matches, a corkscrew, and a bottle of something enjoyable at room temperature.
For that matter, make sure they have those items in the living room; you might get an even longer time-out if your guests aren't bored.
@hulia This is my coffee talking, but maybe you should announce you're going on a Condom Run to the bodega, and does anyone else need anything? This would have the advantage of others not overstaying their welcome, and potential participants to prepare themselves.
@Myrtle You are a genius.
I sincerely thank you for this, it is unusually appropriate.
I'm sorry crap things are happening to you, Ms. Simone! But thank you for this. I needed a reminder that I'm perfectly okay with the way I am!
This is a really good column with great advice. Reproductive status is the hot topic now that I am now married. We went through some complicated stuff with that lately and my instinct is to answer well-intentioned but intrusive questions with the uncomfortably blunt truth. But maybe I'll try this, even though in my heart of hearts, I feel like inappropriate questions deserve inappropriate answers. That escalates things, I know.
@SadieHawkins escalates, but feels SO GOOD.
@liznieve (I am a terrible person, clearly.)
@SadieHawkins The thing to remind yourself is that they're being intrusive and asking about things that are definitively your business, not theirs. If you tell them the details, even if the short-term goal (of making them sorry they asked) is accomplished, you have invited them into your business.
That means that next time they see you, they will ask even more inappropriate questions, and it will be harder to shut them down.
@SadieHawkins I FEEL you. I had a miscarriage about six months ago and it's still rough. I've found that being honest about what my situation is, in the kindest way possible, actually helps a lot. First, they often realize what an intrusive and painful question they've asked. Second, I feel like I'm being honest about how I'm feeling and get some support, which is comforting. I would go with something along the lines of, "Actually, we've been struggling with XYZ and it's been really hard and painful. I'd rather not talk about it if you don't mind." I have mostly avoided saying things like I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A BABY, PARTICULARLY THE ONE THAT DIED IN MY UTERUS AND HAD TO BE SCRAPED OUT. I count that as a success.
@SadieHawkins Oof, that sucks. Reproduction stuff is hard for me too. It sounds like you have a good way of approaching it. As for myself, I don't think I could say the words "it's been really hard and painful" without also starting to cry at the same time.
@sceps yarx That's what I struggle with too. It's been four months, but every time I try to talk about it, I get the watery eyes and shaky voice. It's no good. Even referring to it generally makes that happen. I'm not planning to tell anyone who doesn't know this weekend, but if anyone asks about babies, I'm working on my smiley face. Planning to say, "Thanks for the concern! We're working on it!" Which is true, but isn't as much fun as it sounds.
Thank you, I really needed this. My "I'm not going to talk about this" will be used on the questions about What are you doing now?, and Oh, you just need to do ____ to get a full time job. Seriously, relatives: nothing you say no matter how positive or pseudo-understanding will not make me feel like a total pile of steaming poop. So we're just not going to talk about it.
Last year's remarks were from my uncle who said "Whoa! Look at how much you're eating!" And when I said "Yeah, but I don't need to worry," he got this shocked look on his face and said "Actually you're right! Ha!"
@Polina I am going to practice saying 'Let's talk about something else!' whenever anyone says 'Well, you always find someone when you stop looking! Ha ha!'.
ALSO HAIRPINNERS. Putting it out there now. Who is in for a Christmas Day refuge-type thread where we can all come and get sympathy? I mean I'm sure it's going to happen, just voicing my enthusiasm – something to look forward to even!
@sevanetta Yesss. I'll be here.
@Myrtle Hurray!
@sevanetta This! This! This! I don't want to make Our Benevolent Leaders have to get on the computer if they're with their family, but maybe we can just agree to meet at the (presumable) open thread on xmas at 9am EST and make our own hairpin happen?
@candybeans Yessssss! Except I am in Australia on AEDT (the time zone is Sydney NSW), so I believe that your 9am EST will be 1am on Boxing Day for me? soooo if anyone wants to start the thread early on Christmas Eve, I'll probably be :cough: refreshing the Hairpin on my iphone every 2 seconds… and regardless I will probably still be in need of hairpinness on Boxing Day anyway…
@sevanetta oh, i just picked this time since that's when the hairpin business normally commences. xmas eve sounds like as good a time as any to begin! we all need a safe space to hide on xmas, once the flask of amaretto runs out.
@sevanetta sydneyside hairpinners unite!
@sophielouise I'm actually in Lismore, near Byron doll
but… Aus hairpinners unite! I'm keeping track and I am hoping for an Aust Pinup in 2012. So far I know we have zoe (in Syd), craftastrophies, bek_sparkles and Chris Clark@facebook.
@Polina @sevanetta – I'm in Newcastle. Hopefully I won't need an escape because I am (wonderfully) estranged from my family of (horrible) origin and will have Xmas with my beautiful husband, sons and some great friends. Good luck to you all – I know how priviledged I am!
@Chris Clark@facebook I know you're on my list of Aust hairpinners
I wouldn't have to put on so much emotional armour if I had a lovely boyfriend or husband, or I could probably even get away with not going, but single people are, as Bridget Jones says, at the beck and call of family members. I always wish I could take a friend along so I'd have someone to be on my side…
@sevanetta I'm an Aus hairpinner. From Melbourne though. (Just wanted to put it out there.)
I've JUST completed (as of last Thursday) my medical degree. 5 long years of study. And my grandfather has decided that now is an appropriate time to start nagging me for great-grandchildren. UGH! In front of my boyfriend as well. Usually I handle it pretty well, because (at the ripe old age of 23) it's so far off my radar at the moment that I'm quite capable of laughing it off. But it's slightly awks, and I usually end up telling him to start pestering my 14 year old brother and/or my 10 year old cousin.
@All I will so be checking the 'pin all throughout my 5 hr drive to the relatives!
My favorite for responding to inappropriate questions, courtesy of a Fresh Air interview with Philip Galanes (of the NYT Social Qs): "Why do you ask?" It gives them a minute to realize how intrusive they are being. (They may come up with an answer, but people who are halfway decent will back off, and at least you've had a moment to compose yourself.)
Also, Simone, I'm so sorry. You eat that pudding.
@Lily Rowan I have a way with the evocative image, you know?
@simone eastbro You do! And I do know…
@Lily Rowan That is GENIUS. Especially because you can be super sweet about it (like when my boyfriend's adorable great grandmother asks me if we're ever getting married) or look 'em right in the eyes and grill 'em (like when his aunt asks why we aren't married YET.)
@Lily Rowan This is great. I wish I had this in mind when my boss asked what my rent was the other day (at a holiday lunch, naturally). I, like an idiot, just said it right away, and then remembered, "Oh crap, we're not friends, and you're in charge of my paycheck!" Next time…this.
@Lily Rowan SO GOOD.
@Lily Rowan Ahh such good advice. I get a cornucopia of intrusive fertility-related questions and am always taken aback and kind of shocked into answering… ugh!
@Lily Rowan I need to write this on my hands and eyelids and keep it in my pocket, because I always forget to say "Why do you ask?" when people nag me about marrying my boyfriend. I always just get flustered and sort of stammer uncomfortably and say "oh, that's not really a priority for me right now" or whatever, even though what I really want to say is "clearly I wasn't fucking comfortable with your intrusiveness the last 10 times you asked me, why do you think I want to talk about this NOW?"
Because there is NEVER a right answer to that question, unless the answer is "oh actually he just gave me a ring this morning, wheee!" – if you say you never want to get married, they want to talk about why. If you say you don't want to get married *now* they ask whether he just doesn't love you, or they offer such helpful advice and ridiculous questions as, "well, I told my boyfriend that if I don't get a ring by Christmas we're through" and "why do you live with him if you don't love him?" AHHHHHHHH
This is a point of stress in my family if you cannot tell. Done venting.
@KeLynn People never seem to consider the other side as well – that actually it might be a secret sore spot for you (I get this about being single. Yeah thanks for pointing it out, I actually would like a boyfriend, I just love talking about that!) and by asking directly about it, they run the chance of you sobbing 'I don't knowwwwww I wish we were engaaaaged' and running to the bathroom to hide.
@Lily Rowan That is so perfect.
@KeLynn oh, PS, even if the answer is, "I just got a ring this morning!!", you will stillll be faced with a thousand unfortunate questions. The question *i'm* trying to figure out a polite answer to is, "sooo, have you guys picked a date for the wedding yet?" (at least, it's not a fun question when you don't have a date.)
so, yeah, the grass isn't really greener on the other side of that particular fence.
@Lily Rowan genius! And Lily Rowan is one of my favourite female characters (assuming you aren't the real one!)
@simone eastbro That whole thing about the foils sticking to one's naked body was seriously as though you'd peered into my brain. It was eerie.
@Chris Clark@facebook Yay! I'm always excited when someone else knows who she is.
@candybeans I imagine after you do get married it's just with the babies. I mean, I get nagged about babies and I'm not even married yet. Clearly the only way to not get nagged by aunts and grandmas is to go ahead and get married immediately and have a million babies. Problem solved.
@KeLynn I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that any baby-having is immediately followed by "why are you/aren't you doing xxxxxxx with your baby as you should/should not be, according to me?!", quickly transitioning into "so when are you giving said baby a sibling?"
Lately I've been trying to answer baby questions with, "huh?" and a blank look, which is kind of working but also planting seeds with my in-laws that I might be a little slow.
@miwome i was really happy to have a chance to share that one with the world, sisterfriend.
@KeLynn that's true. i guess i just feel so sensitive right now to the when's-your-wedding one (and was never in a mad rush to get engaged, anyhow). People are just always going to find a way to tell me how to do my shit, aren't they? boo.
@candybeans Yup. The same lovely inlaws that grilled me for years about when boyfriend and I were going to get married didn't miss a beat when we got engaged. Immediately transitioned to discussing everything we're doing wrong in planning the wedding. I'm sure the next will be years of abuse on how we maybe don't want kids, or at least not until my dissertation is finished in god knows how many years. I usually end up being VERY INTERESTED in the dog/baby/coffee pot/dishes as a means of avoidance.
eprgneorfinwoekdmg. RAWR. I can completely relate to this.
I'm going to graduate this spring, and I don't have a plan yet for what I'll do afterward. All I have planned so far is a sojourn to England for two months during the summer. And after that? I have no fucking clue. I DON'T WANNA TALK ABOUT IT.
@MalPal Oh my shit senior year of college made me want to die, not because I didn't know what to do, but because of the unsolicited comments and advice and bullshit from people at holidays. god fucking speed to you.
@MalPal Even if you knew what you were going to do, assholes would still take issue with it.
Still bitter after all the "why are you getting THAT worthless Master's degree?" conversations. Ugh.
@MalPal Just smile and say, "oh things will happen…" and then do an evil laugh.
@MalPal One word: PLASTICS
@MalPal Make up something insane/unrelated to your expertise: "I'm going to astronaut school!" Stick with it all day and keep adding detail: "Yep, first is combo space/boot camp, then I take an astrophysics intensive." Double down on your lies later that same day, "If my eyesight is good enough and I can hack the big Gs (that's G for gravitational forces which increase as an object accelerates relative to free-fall), I start training in the flight simulator." Then throw them a bone: "But if I keep eating this pumpkin pie I might not fit into my flight suit!"
Other strategies include telling each person you speak to a different story. It's especially fun if they're likely to speak to each other later about what you told them.
@MalPal @laurel YES LIE! I just recently re-started lying like I used to in high school, only now it's about my Life Plans, and it's a real load off my shoulders.
@tortietabbie Or the dreaded '….and what will that allow you to do afterwards?' even though you've already mentioned that in your answer because it's easier to say 'When I've finished my PhD I hope to go into research in the area, which is growing so there is a good chance I can get a nice job soon after' GODDAMMNIT. Hmm….may be projecting? lol
@MalPal I'm also a college senior with NO IDEA what to do post-grad and my current go-to is telling everyone that I plan on going into reality tv and that I really hope that I'll get a call back for the next season of the Real World or Millionaire Matchmaker. Possibly one of my aunts might have believed me? Before that it was "I'm signing up for jdate" (my parents are verrryyy Catholic).
THIS is why I am hiding in Cuba for the holidays this year with my father. People do criticize us for this and often comment, "don't you want to be with family??" no.
One Xmas my grandma announced at the dinner table that she didn't think it was appropriate for white women to date black men, completely out of the blue, for absolutely no reason. my uncle tactfully changed the subject.
And my mom told me twice growing up that I ruined Xmas (teenage years) and once threw a (soft) present at me in anger.
@Xaxa I WISH I could be out of the country/province/far enough away to skip the family dinner this year. Enjoy Cuba and being away from everything!
@gravie Thanks!! And good luck!
I am so ready to storm out of a holiday gathering after yelling "Fuck you, old man!" at one of my relatives and flipping him a double-bird that it's actually really disappointing when everyone just sits around disliking each other in a low-grade, passive-aggressive sort of way.
@wharrgarbl are you by chance, Irish? Or Irish Catholic? I think we have the market cornered on repressing feelings and being passive-aggressive. Or perhaps it's universal!
@beanie Nope! New England Protestant(ish). In fact, the old man I most want to yell this at said, and I quote, "Well, at least he's not black." when his oldest daughter brought home an Irish fiance.
@beanie Oh man, Irish Catholic passive-aggressive simmering dislike of one another! That encapsulates Christmas at my Grandma's so well. Although really, it comes down to whether my born-again Catholic aunt and her family are there and whether this year we're going to discuss whether Harry Potter is the devil or not.
@wharrgarbl I'm pretty sure we're related! My family mostly sits around quietly stewing about each other's failings until they all get drunk and pass out. My husband is having his first holiday with them this year and I keep reminding him that it's too late to take back the proposal.
@snuffleupagus We are generally not allowed to get so drunk we pass out, though this year I am planning on changing that by spiking the hell out of the wassail.
@wharrgarbl My mother leads the charge on that one. The rest of us are just following her example.
I solved all family awkwardness situations by moving 2300 miles away, but I guess if you like your family or something this could work.
I totally second the idea of not sticking around where people aren't respecting your wishes, but do give people a warning first! (You covered this, but just as a reminder.) When you say "I am not comfortable with [this]," let the offender that if it happens again, you'll be leaving. Storming off without that initial warning makes you look like you're throwing a temper tantrum; the warning puts it entirely on them.
Well meaning but seriously not listening (since this is the thousand round of this question) Grandma: Why don't you become a teacher? Or a nurse?
JessicaLovejoy: :heavy sigh: Because kids are the worst and I only want to touch people if I think they're hot, grandma. :chugs drink:
@JessicaLovejoy Thanks for summarizing everything in my life, I'm going to bed now.
@JessicaLovejoy My father suggested that I become a journalist. Maybe he thinks I need to lose weight and starving while persuing a profession with no income prospects is just what I need?
Erm..where's the advice on how to not walk into the holiday event with a chip on your shoulder because of awful things your sister-in-law has said about you in the past? A friend wants to know. (A friend knows she should get over it too, but gah it was really uncalled for).
@beanie Consider that being a maliciously awful person is usually its own punishment? I've gotten through a few gatherings just by counting to ten and considering how unhappy my aunt's uniformly atrocious behavior has made her over the course of her life. In all likelihood, your friend's SIL talks shit about a lot of people and has burned a lot of bridges over it. If you can't get over it, you can at least bask in the warm glow of those bridges.
@wharrgarbl @beanie I second this notion. I spend a lot of time with my bf's family and his sister is seriously the most insensitive person I have ever met. Except when it comes to any issue she is having, in which case it is the most important and sad thing in the world. Anyway, her loss is that she is totally blind to the way other people see her. She has no idea. And totally doesn't get it when she loses friends, etc. But she can spend her energy on it. Not me. It used to be all about making her like me but once I realized she doesn't like anybody (even her SO) I just realized she wasn't worth the time. I know if you could just get over it, you would. I hope things go well for you!
@Polina One of my relatives-by-marriage is like… she is beyond odious. She sounds so much like your bf's sister! With the thing of being sensitive to nothing but her own issues, in which case, we better walk on eggshells or ELSE! She also has been and continues to be extremely hurtful to wonderful, loving members of my family. I am really stressing over this, because I cannot take it this year. I just have had it with this bitch. But the relatives who get all the shit from her do not want me or anyone to risk "upsetting" her, because she has the ability to ruin their relationships with people she has in her power. I guess the reasonable answer is for me to just sit on it, but aaaaaaa! It is the worst!
@beanie You could treat her a bit like she has suffered from a brain injury and you are very gentle and maybe clap for her when she ties her shoes.
@beanie Spill something on her early in the day.
@laurel Spill something on her every minute all day.
@beanie
Treat yourself. Spill something hot on her.
@atipofthehat Tom Haverford: I have never taken the high road. But I tell other people to, 'cause then there's more room for me on the low road
Everyone at The Hairpin is so wise.
@gfrancie THIS.
@leastimportantperson Oh lord, yes. My problem is even if anyone confronted the sister she wouldn't even be mad..she'd just be like "Haha what? I'm so strong and awesome." She's just so weirdly immune to anyone else's feelings. Good luck with your crazy-in-law and just remember another 'pinner feels ya. So hard!
@Polina I have a colleague like that. She thinks she's "got a reputation for being bossy" because she "gets things done." The rest of us know she has a reputation for being an insufferable bitch because she demands that other people do her work and then takes credit for it.
All good advice, but also: what is it about Veronica Mars and the period right before Christmas? I feel like I watch the entire series every winter. Be mine, Eli Navarro.
@yeah-elle Be mine LOGAN you total DOUCHEBAG YOU.
What is wrong with meeeeeee
@redheadedandcrazy Ughhh no, not Logan! He's all "wahh wahh, my yellow X-Terra!" alllll the time.
@yeah-elle ugh AGREED. AGREEEEEEED.
@yeah-elle Just finished season 2 last night. <3 Logan, that tortured complicated messed up juicebox. Can't help it.
@yeah-elle let me repeat: what is wrong with meeeeeeeee
@redheadedandcrazy mmmm Logan… so gross yet so hot at the same time… i hear ya
@yeah-elle Fun fact: Eli Navarro was played by the same kid who was the little brother in Free Willy 2. I don't know if you took time off in summer '95 for a movie with Animatronic whales but I sure did.
@Maria I am genuinely afraid to continue watching season 3 (I stopped about 4 episodes in, several months ago), because what if something happens between Logan and Veronica? What if they break up? It’s not why I stopped watching – I just got busy – but it is for real why I can’t bring myself to go back to it. I will just go back and watch the first two seasons again and again and again. Logaaaaaaaaaan, you’re so troubled, it’s not your fault, I love you sooooooooooo.
@redheadedandcrazy Ah well, it's not like my penchant for a bad boy motorcycle gang leader who is secretly a softie is any better. Weeeeevil.
@andrea disaster Tiny Weevil, ahhhh! He was also in Kazaam!
@redheadedandcrazy Looogaannnnn I love you Loooggannnnn
@gobblegirl Season 3 is not worth it. It ends on a cliffhanger unprepared for cancellation, and therefore, will only end in heartache anyway.
@Maria I like Season 3 up until the end of the rapist mystery ("Spit & Eggs," I think). It still ends on a cliffhanger, but more of a mystery-cliffhanger than an actual Oh-No-Is-Veronica-Okay cliffhanger. But then I still watch the Paul Rudd guest episode, where he lip-syncs songs by Cotton Mather. On the flip side, I will never forgive what they do to ***SPOILERS*** Deputy Lamb later on.
@yeah-elle Ahhh, Kazaam! Love it.
@Maria @yeah-elle Season 3 took me forever to get through. I blazed through the first two seasons all OMG VM I <3 YOU, but all those changes + new characters I wasn't feeling + a different version of the theme song (whhhhy would they do that?!) = not a rush to finish.
@yeah-elle Nooooooo!! They took it off of Netflix streaming!!! You've given me a craving to watch it again and now I have to go cold turkey… Waah!!
@LittleBookofCalm Ahhhh I didn't know it was no longer on Netflix instant, either! What am I going to do now???
@LittleBookofCalm WHAT! But that was like my Netflix security blanket. I always knew it was there even if I wasn't going to watch it again for a few months. That is unacceptable.
@yeah-elle Logan Echolls is the only character crush that my best friend and I have agreed on in our 15+ years of friendship/crushing on people.
Also when I just started watching VM she had a livejournal icon of the first time they kissed and I was like "What is that OMG?!" and she said it was just a thank you kiss.
So I guess now I know what show I'm watching again over winter break
@yeah-elle Weevil is in Kazaam? And Kazaam is on Netflix streaming!! I know what I'm doing tonight!
@redheadedandcrazy Whatever is wrong with you is also wrong with me.
Thank you so much for writing this. I'm not going back to my family's for Christmas (it's just me, my almost husband and a crate of wine, AND THAT'S THE WAY I LIKE IT). However, I'm going to my parent's 30th wedding anniversary party this weekend, and whilst I can't wait to tell my Mum and Dad how cool it is that a couple who married when they'd only known each other for six weeks are still together 30 years later, my extended family are going to be there.
I can't really deal with my extended family – they think I'm a stuck up cow for going to university, getting a decent job and not getting pregnant at 19. The thought of spending an entire evening with them is making me have heart palpitations, want to take up smoking again, and DRINK HEAVILY. I intend to go armed with this in my handbag. And, you know, also drink heavily.
@Miss Cay Perhaps a bold lip AND cat's eyes? AND Anthropologie hair? If they think you're a lalala glamazon stuckup socialite, I say own it, sister!
@gobblegirl I'll admit, I will be wearing the best dress which makes both my ass and my boobs look AMAZING. I'm going to team these with a bold lip, a cats eye, and my vintage silver 'disco' heels which have rhinestones on the toe.
@Miss Cay I like you.
@Miss Cay My extended family hates me for the same reasons. I unwittingly sat next to an aunt who turned to me point blank in the middle of a family dinner and said, "you should really start thinking about having kids because your insides are almost dead." Not fully realizing what had just happened I asked her, "did you say my insides are dead or that I'm dead inside?" to which she replied, "either way". Chapter 52 of my multi-volume memoir.
@Pimento! I'm going to be taking my husband-to-be with me, and I know we'll be asked 'when are you going to have kids?' Quite looking forward to telling people that I have no intention of spawning, and am so set on this that I actually gave an interview to a national newspaper here in the UK explaining and defending my position. Whoo boy.
@rayray Thank you kindly! *bows*
@Miss Cay Where can we find this interview?
Should have started steeling myself for this about a month ago. Oh holidays, you are a delight. We are doing pre-chanukah festivities this weekend and I'm driving four hundred miles to be there, taking a day off work (a day off work is a big deal for me right now due to brokeassness and feeling horrible for whoever has to cover my night shift), and spreading myself pretty damn thin to make it work…and I can't wait for the comments on my job, weight, appearance, plans, partner, etc.
My mom kind of hates me for moving out right now, and so, despite years of hassling me about being too heavy (I was never what anyone would describe as heavy- she and my sister just happen to be very thin and vain and y'all understand) and all of four months ago, she said, "By the way, I saw a picture of you on the beach from last weekend- you look great" she has moved on to telling me I am dying all of the time because I am too thin (all of like, a five pound difference from when she last told me I looked good)- she sent me a scale and constantly asks me what I am eating (everything, Mama Third Wave. Everything) and if I am taking care of (insert minor problem here) THIS IS GOING TO BE A ROUGH HOLIDAY IS WHAT I AM SAYING.
Don't fail me, Hairpin: I'm on antibiotics for a stupid little infection in my finger that would not have happened if I didn't clean and handle money all night at work. Do I drink the icy craft beer in my fridge? I have a long fucking weekend ahead of me.
@Third Wave Housewife DRINK THE ICY CRAFT BEER IN YOUR FRIDGE.
@Third Wave Housewife Great news — "Alcohol doesn't diminish the effectiveness of most antibiotics." Drink up, lady. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antibiotics-and-alcohol/AN01802
@Miss Cay Seconded! Drink that icy craft beer! Just don't get all wastey-face.
@carbonation I generally assume that many medication warnings are there for worst case scenarios, but I'm glad that Mayo Clinic endorses this decision.
I am so excited about this Irish Red that I didn't think I'd ever see again. It is. So perfect.
@Third Wave Housewife My friend (a doctor) says there's only one kind of antibiotics you can't drink on and obviously your doctor would've told you if you were on that one. Drink away.
@Third Wave Housewife Which Irish Red? There's a specific crafty Irish Red that I love but haven't seen in a few years and it makes me sad.
Enjoy! So glad to read that the Mayo clinic cosigns this.
@phillystout Magic Hat Humble Patience. It was in the fall variety pack, which stopped being available October 15th…and then I found a case at my grocery store, out of nowhere! eee!
@Third Wave Housewife your mom asks you what you EAT??? I'm so sorry. you deserve a hug.
First of all, CLINIQUE IS SCIENCE! That's why the spelling is so close to "clinic."
Also, three months after getting dumped, my father did a drop-in at my place (very out of character, for him). He passive-aggressively asked if his presence was "awkward" or making me uncomfortable. Nope, I said – and in an effort to keep things light-hearted added, "Though it could be awkward in another hour or so, since Juicebox-Ex is coming by to pick up the cat since I'm leaving town tomorrow."
My dad's truly delightful response: "It wouldn't be awkward for me. He dumped you, not me. I always really liked Juicebox… In fact, he called the other day because he needed some help with his computer."
What a delight to know that being unceremoniously dumped after nine years had not in any way colored my dad's opinion of my ex!
@ejcsanfran That is TERRIBLE! I left someone after he cheated on me, and my Dad sometimes underhandedly asks how he's doing. Why do you care, Dad? He cheated on your daughter! You absolutely may not be friends!
@Roxanne Rholes: My dad has 41 friends on F'book. One of them is the ex. Sigh…
@ejcsanfran THAT IS JUST BULLSHIT.
@ejcsanfran I block people with impunity. One of the strangest, yet strangely rewarding facebook moments ever was when my mother asked me–very seriously and very earnestly–to explain to her how to block my father. That was some tech support I was happy to provide.
@Roxanne Rholes "He's still a cheating juicebox who broke my heart. Thanks for asking, Dad! It's awesome to know that you care so much about me that you're still mad at him over that too!"
@ejcsanfran: Clinique is French for "scientific."
@ejcsanfran Oh. God. Parents and exes, really. There's no telling. I was nineteen and broke up with my boyfriend of two and a half years because, you know. I just got to college and wanted to, like, be in college. Instead of sympathizing – like I sort of expected – my mother made me feel terrible about this, in the car, in front of my girlfriends: "You just don't know what this is doing to the family. I just keep picturing him sitting there, all alone . . ." He was 23.
@gladfanny And then it took YEARS for them to stop comparing every guy I brought home to this guy.
Thank you, this is perfect. And I'm sorry you're in a crappy situation right now, Simone. May your puddings be delightful.
I can relate too – I come from a family of tiny women and am… not (I am a foot taller than every other woman I am related to on my father's side, and weigh twice as much). It is less than fun, and I'm rereading this before every time I step into a room with them this year.
I thought I'd share my grandfather's best gem, since it seemed hairpinny to me: "Girls who eat chocolate cake do not get married," he announced to me. When I was fourteen. In public. In front of multiple other people. On hearing about my cousin's recovery from anorexia, my grandmother commented that she had always had chubby thighs. They are lovely people and they love their grandchildren very much. They're just batshit crazy.
@oh-no-not-now Please pile your hair up on top of your head (as appropriate) and wear a pushup bra and platform heels. Hug everyone nose first into your cleavage. Please?
@oh-no-not-now That chocolate cake phrase is killing me because 1) it's sad and 2) I'm 99% sure my grandpa had some verrrry similar phrase that was actually the opposite (like, something about chocolate cake making you prettier or something) that he would say and it's on the tip of my tongue but I cannot for the life of me remember it. Ahhhhhh!
@KeLynn My grandma's fridge had a magnet with a drawing of a very big woman on it, and the caption, "A moment on the lips, forever on the hips." Took me until I was in college to get it.
@BoozinSusan My Grandmother used to yell at me for setting an extra place-setting at the table if I got the number of people coming to holiday dinner wrong, because apparently if that happens you don't have babies or something (there was a long winded metaphor about cows and calves in there somewhere, but that was the gist). When I was like, 12-14. AWESOME.
@snuffleupagus Veird! Well, I mean the connection is obvious between place settings –> boviary population –> fertility…
My grandma just tries to get everyone to listen to ONLY her — if anyone else talks while she's talking, even to make a relevant comment, she snaps "No crosstalk!" Oh, holidays.
@BoozinSusan Naturally. After all, spooning leads to forking.
@snuffleupagus Wow, that joke cut like a knife.
@BoozinSusan My grandma gave me so many mixed messages about food and weight. When I was little I used to be scary-skinny – like, she used to ask my mom if she was feeding me at all. But then, I also always heard "Girls who eat 2 sweets take up 2 seats." And now instead of skinny-minny, the greeting I get is "You're lookin a little chubby there, girlie." And my grandfather calls me J. Lo (because of my booty? Inappropriate, but thanks, grandpa.)
And now that I'm 22, they ask me EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY see me if a) I have a boyfriend, b) I'm getting married and c) when I'll start poppin out the great-grandkids. While I was in college, they used to ask this only sporadically, but now, it's every time.
My only real boundary at the holidays are that first cousins and up are off limits.
God, I wish I could honor that boundary.
I have been mentally preparing myself all week for JUST such an occasion which could conceivably come up at my christmas party with my friends. I have been so super pumped and ready to say all these things and so I just wanted to say I love this article, it gave me some even more great ideas, and LET'S NEVER TAKE SHIT FROM NOBODY AGAIN!
@redheadedandcrazy NOT FROM NOBODY!
This advice is excellent (and I measure all advice by how much it resembles Caroline Hax's).
@Lyesmith Love me some Hax. I'm particularly a fan of her go-to response when someone says something completely inappropriate- just say "Wow". And let it sit there.
Oh god, I love this.
One question, though: I have no problem saying "I'm not going to talk about this" or "actually I'm fine with my choices" etc etc etc.
The thing is, my mother always counters with "sigh, GIMLET, why do you have to be so DRAMATIC all the time, I just want to TALK!!!" Which cuts me off at the knees, because no matter what I say or don't say, it's dramatic, and no matter what she says, it's gospel. It drives me up the fucking wall. What can I do?
@gimlet ugh or the "Don't be so defensive, Elizabeth. I am just making conversation." Yes. Idle conversation about student debt.
@gimlet "That's fine, I just don't want to talk about *this*." Always cheerful and calm.
@gimlet Maybe a bright, "OK! Let's talk about [insert subject here]."? Or cheerful, "No drama; just don't feel like talking about this." Or laugh at her and say, "Who's dramatic now?" I'm not sure which would work best, but I feel like cheery, unaffected breeziness is the best way to deflect accusations of drama. It works on my mom!
@gimlet Accidentally break something, like a wine glass or a vase? Distract them with something shiny?
@gimlet "Does it matter if I'm dramatic? You brought up a sensitive topic, I don't want to talk about it, and you're trying to trap me between feeling uncomfortable and feeling irrational. I don't want to talk about it, and so we're not going to, and your impression that I'm dramatic is irrelevant."
@Princess Langwidere @simone eastbro yeah, definitely quiet and cheerful is the way to go. Remember that episode of 30 Rock where Jack is teaching Jenna how to win fights with her crazy mom? The cardinal rule was ABQ: Always Be Quieter. I am going to take this to heart. I am going to smile and whisper for a week straight. And then come home and drink all the gin.
@gimlet I get this too, along with variations along the lines of, "You're so SENSITIVE!" or, better yet, "You're so UNFORGIVING!" I haven't tried it in person yet, but I have hung up the phone when conversations go this way, after multiple times of gently asserting, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I really am not going to talk about this. If you keep trying to talk about it, I am going to hang up the phone." AND THEN I DID IT. Felt like a horrible, terrible daughter afterwards, but you know what, she didn't bring it up again.
Now I'm going to have to apply that same logic to the in-person-trampling-boundaries situation. I will leave the room, or the house.
@gimlet That's when you smile and say, "then why don't we talk about how you need to work on your conversation skills? I know of some fantastic books that can help you improve them. Because really you are a lovely lady who just needs to fine-tune things a bit."
But I suppose that might lead to a crying Mother. hee.
@gimlet I get into this with my mom too, and it turns into this ultimately frustrating, circular conversation:
Me: I can't talk about it with you, and that's it.
Mom: But, I love you! I'm just trying to have a conversation with you. Why do you shut me out?
Me: :::caving in::: I know Mom. *understanding hug*
So generally, I walk away from these conversations feeling upset with myself, because I end up caring for my mom's feelings and neglecting my own boundaries. I agree! It's such a tough scenario, especially when it's with family.
This year, I'm just holding firm to my boundaries. So when my mom comes to me and wants to talk about my sex life (why Mom? why? We both know you disapprove of my wanton lifestyle and pray for my soul daily) I'm just going to say, "I am not talking about this with you. I've made this boundary clear before and you won't respect it. Let's talk about something else." And I'm not going to budge. Let her call me dramatic, insensitive, whatever. I have to believe this will set a precedent for healthy communication.
@heyits You are my new hero. Can we start a club? Because every other conversation with my parents is along the lines of "why did you betray your family by quitting church, I guess you don't love us, you better repent one day." And they call ME dramatic!
@gimlet You could do real drama to her. Scream "DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF BEING DRAMATIC, WOMAN!" at the top of your lungs! Throw that wine glass against a wall! Tell her you ran over a homeless person while drunk a month ago and dumped their corpse in an abandoned lot and that it is eating you up inside! You're pregnant, and you don't know whether it's your boss's, your ex's, or your ex's dad's because you were really mad at your ex one night and didn't stop to buy condoms! Just go full reality tv on her. It will be cathartic.
Or don't do any of that, and ask her to clarify why you not wanting to discuss something counts as "drama" when her persistently bringing up subjects she knows are touchy does not.
@wharrgarbl YES. Just like this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN44wqzOvg4
@heyits – Good luck with her! And maybe have some safe topics ready to talk about, so she can't do the "Why are you shutting me out?" business.
@gimlet I didn't even realize that this is exactly what happened between my mother and I on the phone recently until you mentioned the phone. She brought up my unhappiness (when, in a moment of weakness I admitted to being unhappy at work) and when I was crying and saying "I don't want to talk about it", she persisted with "why not?" and "I'm trying to help" and finally "You're 26, single, childless and have no responsibilities, whose fault is it that you're unhappy?" I dodged her calls for weeks when all I needed to say was, "I don't want to talk about this".
THANK YOU for illustrating how this isn't just an in-person issue. I'm going to use your strategy next time.
Coincidentally, the conversation started with me telling my mother that I wouldn't be spending xmas with the family this year. The subsequent conversation just proved that I'd made the right choice. I'm hoping to be high and happy on December 25 in an empty movie theatre.
@gimlet MY MOM DOES THIS TOO. I HATE IT.
@heyits and gimlet that is emotional manipulation and people like this are skilled at turning the conversation any way to make you be the unreasonable one. So sticking to
Also lots of <3 because I get this too. Last time I persisted with 'I'm sorry you feel that way, I can't change X; is there something I can do, like Y?' and the other person twisted and turned because they actually didn't have a legitimate complaint, just wanted to go off at me generally for no reason.
Also KaiMcN, I love it when people tell me it's all my fault because I'm single! So great! <3
@KaiMcN@twitter Wait up, I'll get my coat.
@heyits I think we share a mother. She's getting better, but oh god, there are so many things I have to put the kibosh on. "We're not talking about my body because of all the years of you obsessing about the poochiness of my stomach, we're not talking about me sleeping with girls because of the time in the car you said you didn't think bisexuality existed and the time you theorized to me that my childhood friend is ("now") a lesbian because it's so hard for her to find men than are accepting of her disability and ALSO BECAUSE I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT SEX WITH YOU, we are not talking about my mental health because that is not a can of worms I am opening ever because it will be a slippery slope into you calling me every day and being nosy in the name of being worried and caring. And it's all "why don't you want to talk to me? I'm your mother! I ask about you because I love you. Why are you shutting me out?" *crying in the car on the way to the airport*
The thing that kills me is that my mom loves me SO MUCH. Like, I am a super insecure person, but probably the thing I know most confidently is that she would still love me if I killed a baby, a puppy, and burned down a hospital, and her getting upset kills me because I know she's afraid that we're going to have as bad a relationship as she has with her mother, but oh god, sometimes I just cannot deal with the nosiness and judginess in the guise of caring.
@SadieHawkins The thing to remind yourself is that they're being intrusive and asking about things that are definitively your business, not theirs. If you tell them the details, even if the short-term goal (of making them sorry they asked) is accomplished, you have invited them into your business.
That means that next time they see you, they will ask even more inappropriate questions, and it will be harder to shut them down.
Okay, this may be an unpopular response, but how about not making an entire table of people uncomfortable when they had untentionally made jokes about prison? Everyone has their sensitive areas, and when you bring a group of people together there is no way for them all to know what each individuals' sensitive subjects are. To force everyone else to address that they had UNINTENTIONALLY made you uncomforatble seems like unnecessary awkwardness to me. Why not just take a deep breath, remind yourself that no on knows about what you are going through in your personal life, and let it go (and let others enjoy the party).
@Darcy Yeah, but like…why should one person have to grin and bear it? Why are her feelings trumped? That's kind of shitty. Also, there may have been more people at the table with those kind of experiences/personal connections that were too shy to speak up.
ALSO, in my experience, prison jokes often devolve into rape jokes and that shit needs to get SHUT DOWN, asap.
@Darcy They don't have to be uncomfortable though. If I made a joke, that someone took offense to, or was hurt by, because I didn't know what was going on in their personal life, I would feel bad for a second, but then get over it. It is not their fault, and they didn't know. And I'm sure they would rather know, than be unintentionally hurtful to someone.
@tortietabbie Agreed — and is there really a way to "unintentionally" make jokes about prison? It kind of seems like a mean-spirited discussion anyway, even if nobody has a personal connection to a prisoner. It's not like they were talking about flower arranging and she freaked out and shut them down because she had a bad experience with a florist.
@Darcy Also, I think the enjoyment ten people get out of crappy prison jokes is far outweighed by the amount of extreme discomfort of one. Wouldn't you want to know if you were hurting one of your friends?
@liznieve Yeah I don't think it's really a good joke – it's based on power and you can only laugh if you can think, well I would never end up in that situation, har har. Yeah… not so funny or kind.
@carbonation And why are we talking about prison at the holiday dinner table?!
@laurel THAT is a good question!
@laurel Last year I complained when my brother decided that the Christmas dinner table was a good place to tell everyone about a grisly operation his coworker had. Everyone looked at ME like :I: had just said something unpardonably rude and disgusting.
This year, I don't drink so that I at least can keep my mouth shut.
@laurel
Same reason I shot a man in Reno?
@Awesomely Nonfunctional And she handled it perfectly! Said there's no way they could have known this (because they couldn't have), asked politely that the conversation be changed to something less uncomfortable, moved on. Done.
@Darcy It is totally okay to make other people uncomfortable if they're making you upset. I think that we should all learn that mantra. Yes, everyone has their sensitive areas, and no one can know all of them, therefore it's okay to tell other people when they've hit one of your sensitive areas. If it makes them uncomfortable, that's okay!
@thebestjasmine mostly because, if *i* knew that i was causing someone that much pain by making what I thought were innocuous comments, i would want to know ASAP, even if it made me a little itchy for a minute. I'd probably go apologize afterward in private, actually. (but, yeah, i wouldn't make those jokes; prison-is-awful "jokes" are only funny if you don't think much of the sort of people who go to prison, but maybe i've spent too much time thinking about prison inmates.)
thanks, y'all.
Hugs, acceptance, and affection from me to all the people who aren't getting it from their families!
@Awesomely Nonfunctional <3 you. Wouldn't a Hairpin Christmas be lovely
@sevanetta Yes! The Hairpin family Christmas! A bottle of Qream in every stocking!
@Awesomely Nonfunctional bahahahaha huzzah! And we could sing that The Twelve Days of Hairpin carol that someone put up the other day, make Christmas dolly-head cups, have a Worst Thing a Relative has Said at Christmas playoff, and eat Qhristmas pudding. Yay
@sevanetta Sounds amazeballs! (amazballs=amazing, but awesomer)
@Awesomely Nonfunctional Back at'cha.
@Awesomely Nonfunctional Thank you so much. This particular christmas is going to be fully of shitty awkward family bullshit. Pinner Love <3
This is a mighty good post. It helps to have a plan to deal with the onslaught of commentary. I admit I will lie there in bed and come up with topics of conversation to segue from uncomfortable topics. I will force the direction of conversation dammit if it is the last thing I do.
@gfrancie OK I'm commenting like crazy here so I have to stop soon, but my problem is, my immediate family prefer not to talk unless they are saying uncomfortable-making things. there are no polite topics of conversation!!! what do you doooo
@sevanetta Books, weather, (but this might only work with Scandinavians or the English.) videos of cute animals on the internet, what a lovely meal the host provided, (though that can be a tricky one if there are food issues that plague the family) gardening, (this is a good one with the English -full disclosure, my husband's family is English, so some of this is tailored for their needs) admiring someone's new sofa/tv/window treatments, (maybe if they had a time getting the item delivered, it will allow them to go on a tirade about what a debacle it was, which will allow you to get another drink and say, "oh dear, that must have been awful. Mmmhmm…" or (and this is a last-ditch thing) alleged gossip about other people in the neighborhood/village/extended circle of friends. Poke around and see if someone got a neck lift that didn't work. Someone is bound to talk about that for awhile.
This is so, so timely (and judging from the comments here, not just for me) and so good to have reinforced what I am already psychologically preparing for beginning next Monday. Thank you so much for bringing attention to this, for telling everyone that their own feelings, comfort and sanity matter as much as anyone else's, especially those who willfully trample on boundaries. Or have no concept that such things exist.
This past year has been a watershed one for me and recognition + implementation of boundaries, and some of the truest advice I've received from a professional has been that these verbal boundaries are most effective when said without anger and with kindness. It's sometimes been hard to practice, but when I've gotten it right I am amazed at the experience of it working.
Thank you again.
@laughingwoman None related, just wanted to say I love your avatar image…
@Awesomely Nonfunctional
Me, too. Had it fur lunch!
@atipofthehat AH! Kicking myself for not thinking of that….I …tip my hat to you?
Great post and thanks. You went quickly past the "I'm getting divorced" but I wanted to share that I used mine to learn what was important to me and what I wanted from Life. As my ex was a platonic friend before marriage and someone whose ethics I admired- we weren't ever in love, just friends- I reminded myself that I felt good about not harming someone else or no longer keeping him from finding a true marital bond of happiness with someone else. I'm still learning from it. But, divorcing still hurt like nothing else I'd ever experienced. My thoughts are with you.
@Myrtle and Simone, yes sympathies, it's so much easier to get through this time when other people talk about not having a perfect family/support structure at this time. I'm the only single person at my holiday stuff and I always feel like I should be able to take a friend for support… but you don't DO that with family stuff… anyway this convoluted comment is to send <3.
So this is the part where I'm grateful for my tiny, farflung family. Sure, I didn't get tons of graduation presents…I'll be lucky if I have three extended family members bothers to come to my wedding…but holidays are a dream, b/c it's only our small, nuclear unit; we get along great, and I love it!!! <3
Or…you know…just don't visit them. I stopped visiting my family during the holidays three years ago. My mom is either hyper or sulking in the corner, my aunts tell racist jokes, everyone talks shit about Hillary Clinton and Fox news in on constantly. Also: Southern Indiana. I don't need that shit, I'm an adult and I can choose how to celebrate my holidays. I choose my lovely friends and my gorgeous town.
You can too!
@pinkmoon Comment twins!
I had always hoped that friend-only holidays were what can happen when you grow up.
Threads like this really make me wonder why people bother with relative bullies around the holidays. Is it that you like some of the family? What stops you from having a friends-only holiday party/only seeing the family who respects and loves you?
@Inkcrafter Everyone's situation is going to be marginally different, but usually it's either most everyone is pretty awesome but a few people suck a lot or everyone kind of sucks but you can't dodge the holidays without being put through a ton of shit for the rest of the goddamned year. Unfortunately, only seeing the family who respects and loves you would usually be contingent on them being willing to cut the asshole family members off the guest-list, which might happen if it's your sister-in-law's party and your second cousin who joined the Klan, but probably isn't going to happen if it's your mom's shindig and your juiceboxy racist of a brother.
It's definitely a personal judgement call, though. If you find yourself saying "My family is so unerringly awful to me when we spend more than a few hours together that I spend the entire winter having panic attacks at the thought of having to deal with them for days on end," that's probably time to stop going home for the holidays and fuck anyone who gives you shit over it.
@wharrgarbl Thankyou for explaining wharrgarbl. The other situation is that sometimes my family are fine and sometimes they aren't, and you can't ever tell what it will be, and they don't recognise when they are being horrible so they always act like I am the horrible one when I call them out on it. And I really can't dodge the holidays without catching hell the rest of the time.
@Inkcrafter The thing is, I love my family. I love spending time with them, I love the holidays with them, I love getting a little tipsy with them (because there are no hidden cocktails with us). But there are always a few little things that drive you crazy.
@thebestjasmine Yup. In my experience, the only remedy for this is a cousin you're close with. It's like having a Hairpinner there with you, AND you both know exactly what sucks about everyone.
Or maybe that's just my cousin? <3 u, cuz.
@Inkcrafter Mostly, with my family, it's the terrible guilt that you get from not spending time with them. My mother once stopped talking for me for three months because I didn't send her a valentine's day card, and instead of dealing with it just made my dad the middleman for telling me how ungrateful and horrid I was. If you don't pay proper attention to her, she makes your life a living hell and leaves voicemails of heavy breathing. So instead, we go there for a few days, play nice and pretend everything's fine, and don't have to deal with the psycho until I screw something else up!
@miwome My cousins and I are friends despite our fathers hating each other and not speaking for nearly 2 decades. I ended up going to law school with one of my cousins and we're like sisters — unfortunately, our fathers still loathe each other, so no Christmas together.
@Inkcrafter I just like hanging out in the city where they all live. And despite the sometimes shittyness I still want to try to have good moments together.
@S. Elizabeth D: That gives me a sad. My cousin is 14 years older than I am, and our parents get along pretty well, but each of us has major issues with our father or mother, respectively (my dad and her mom are siblings, and they are…difficult to have as parents). Nobody understands these issues better than she and I do, so we build a Fort of Moral Support together and occasionally stroll outside on holidays to Let It All Out when necessary. It works well! Maybe later in life you and your cousins can start a joint holiday tradition?
@miwome I think it will probably happen later in life. Cousin Christmas seems like it would be so fun that it might be sinful. It would be so much fun! I would feel so guilty!
@S. Elizabeth Yeah, on my dad's side, all of the cousins have issues with their parents (my grandparents sure did a number on our parents!) and many of our parents have issues with one another, but all of us have a super tight bond. Family weddings are the best just for the cousin table, where we all drink a lot and are hilarious.
@S. Elizabeth No! No guilt! Drink more eggnog, it makes the guilt go away! #truefacts
@thebestjasmine Sounds like my cousins on my other side. I don't know them as well (across the country and all) but at weddings we have a cousin stand-around-and-drink-and-smoke circle, which is sort of like a table, but less stable?
@thebestjasmine Are you one of my cousins??? Because that's us, 100%. I love my cousins.
@S. Elizabeth This is super late, but I just met some of my cousins on Thanksgiving, and we bonded so quickly. We also pulled away from the rest of the family and got down to the family secrets and craziness. It was amazing to put together the bits and pieces each of us knew. I miss them already.
Simone, you're the best, we should have cocktails soon so you have something in your stomach to counteract all of that pudding (wait, that's not really how it works, is it?). This year for the first time I told my Grandma that I didn't want her commenting on my body anymore, and I said it in probably a little too much of a heated fashion, and it kind of took her aback. But you know what? She has not commented on my body since then, which is pretty amazing for her.
@thebestjasmine ::HIGHFIVES:: I have an aunt who is so nice but is also completely clueless about body image issues (this is the one who gave me brochures to fat camp). I ended up snapping at her on a recent visit, and while it was a little harsh? She needed to hear it, and she needed to hear how strongly I felt about it. And it feels pretty damn good to know I've drawn that line.
Spending Boxing Day with my girlfriend's small, yet insaaaanely dramatic family. After her sister recently announced her engagement to her boyfriend of six months (at my gf's birthday dinner, good work) and am expecting, and have already received, multiple 'So when are you guys moving in together?' which then segue into 'Almost three years….isn't it STRANGE that you're not living together? Wanting all that time to yourself….isn't that STRANGE? WHEN ARE YOU GETTING MARRIED? JUST BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN'T DO A BIG ELLEN AND PORTIA WEDDING, WHAT DO YOU MEAN, YOU DON'T LIKE BIG WEDDINGS?! CALL YOURSELF A FEMME?' etc etc and giving me a panic attack and my gf will have to bundle me into her car so I can cry hysterically about being a bad girlfriend.
This may or may not have been how I spent my year…
@CupcakeTattoos That's when you respond with "You know what's strange? Your face."
@CupcakeTattoos Aaaaha ha, YES. That's amazing.
Also amazing, your name.
YEEEES this is extremely useful for my entire life! Holidays aren't such a big deal (thankfully; although this will be the first year with my in-laws since being married–let the kid-questions begin), but 1, 2 and especially 4… yes. Dear self: it's not your job to take care of everyone's feelings!
I am so good at asserting myself like this at my family house…but my in-laws are a whole other story! And they are weight OBSESSED! Literally my mother-in-law suggested i STARVE myself (yes she used that word) post-pregnancy…and I just kind of force a smile and hate my life!!
@taz Your mother-in-law is a bad person. I do not like her.
@wharrgarbl Seconded, voted on, and passed.
You know what's funny? My husband's southern Baptist, inert conservative relatives are actually much nicer to spend time with than my allegedly democrat relatives are. They might think we're damned/evil, but gosh if they aren't polite about it.
@lovelettersinhell "bless your heart," is, after all, a southern construction.
This holiday, I resolve to respond to my mom's snarky, "Don't try to be funny," comments with, um, hopefully something better than Thanksgiving's, "Mom, I'm not trying to be funny, I am literally just describing my life! JESUS."
@Nutmeg "Why not?" But really, why not.
Oh boy, I'm going to print this and stick it on my wall and read it every single day. Because I can't possibly take one more comment by my grandma about why I still can't drive at 25 or why I 'dress like a boy' (jeans and All Stars are boys' clothes, jsyk) or or or. Sorry for the rant but this struck such a sensitive chord.
…aaaand that's why my best friend and I are probably not going home and are instead spending Christmas in the city this year.
I'm a little bit concerned about my family Christmas this year because I just had to quit my job due to some emotional/mental problems. Generally when you say you quit a job, people want to know to know why, and I've just been sort of throwing out a general "You know, just…time to move on" because I don't want to get into the details. Three people have given me snarky "Well THAT must be nice!" , which makes me both angry at them and adds to the self-hate. I must find a better way to respond!
@Ames Just say you wanted to devote yourself full-time to writing mystery/romance novels. I recommend going into really, really complex detail about your struggle with plot points if they ask anything more. Or, (as one commenter above suggested) say you are spending all your time trying out for all the reality shows!
@Ames Just say you've got a new opportunity in the works. If they pry, just say "That's all I can really say at this point. Once I know more, I'll let you know." If they CONTINUE to pry, say "Sorry, non-disclosure agreements can be a bitch."
^ I have tested the above method and yielded positive results.
@ohgodtheglitter …and it's more polite than, "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you."
@100kb I'm actually, seriously, IRL writing and drawing a fantsy-themed comic book right now, and I find that talking about it is a really effective and awkward conversation ender. Nerd alert!!!
Posts like this really make me 1) appreciate how my mother brought me up, because it would never occur to me to let someone make me feel like shit without reacting, and 2) appreciate my family, because I have never had any of this.
I am sharing this around though, because I know so many people who need this advice!
Simone! I want to hug you. Is that ok? I mean obviously I can't physically hug you because I don't actually know you and we're not in the same place, but the desire and the sending of virtual hugs is there…
@illcommunication AHH! Yes! It is okay! Thank you! I am hoping that joining roller derby will improve my outlook.
@simone eastbro ROLLER DERBY MAKES EVERYTHING BETTER! Ahem, sorry for yelling. I can't wait for a "do this" post about derby
@illcommunication obviously. OBVIOUSLY.
This is so great! I'm sorry to hear about your existential pudding cups, but I'm so happy you wrote this.
It all boils down to the fact that if anyone has a problem with you or who you are or what you do or how you look, it is their problem, not yours, and just because they're going to attempt to make it your problem doesn't mean you need to play along. You get to make the rules, and then you get to break them, too, if they're not working.
You are a class act, Simone.
@kayjay YES. THIS.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SIMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE!!! I didn't see this yesterday! I haven't even read the article — I just had to come down here to fan-girl scream at you before I did! This is the best Christmas present ever
.
@wee_ramekin <3 U GURL
@simone eastbro <3 u 2, simoneie. This was a great article.
I wanted to let you know how sorry I am that you're going through a difficult divorce. I also wanted to let you know that I think you're really emotionally strong and self-aware, and that from the little I know of you, I know that you can and will get through this. I saw upthread that you're thinking of joining roller derby, and I think that's a great idea. Good luck with derby, and please remember for those inevitable times when you feel like you've been smacked in the face with a 2' x 4' of Emotion that I and hundreds of other people think that you're incredibly groovy.
Love you, and happy Hannukah (or, as my co-worker just wrote to me, Huzzahnakuh!).
@simone eastbro Fangirl love to you, Simone! This whole thing made me as joyful and giddy as a 13 year old girl at a Justin Bieber concert.
No really, I have one of these difficult families with lots of gaslighting and emotional manipulation via my dad's ability to make everyone feel bad. I've sucked it up every year and dealt with it because if I say that he's upsetting me, I'm accused of provoking a fight. NOT THIS YEAR. THIS YEAR I'M 25, WICKED ASSERTIVE, and READ THE HAIRPIN.
@S. Elizabeth Always keep a glass of red wine handy so that you can hurl it at something if the situation becomes unworsenable.
@S. Elizabeth YEAH GIRRRRRRL
@wharrgarbl "I drank all the throwing wine!" — Jenna Maroney, '30 Rock'
@simone eastbro: kicking ass, taking names, and drinking bourbon — HECK YES.
@wee_ramekin <3 U GURL
@kayjay !!!!! thanks, doodlebug!
Does anyone ever find themselves on the opposite side of this situation? I always manage to choose the wrong topics of conversation for my sister-in-law, even though I never comment on her appearance, and never second-guess or criticize her. It's hard to get to know someone without asking a few questions about their life, and I don't ask anything that I would find intrusive, but "How are you enjoying your new job/neighborhood/being a parent" is invariably met with a scowl and "That's a bad topic." I've been with my husband for six years but I feel like she's still a stranger. I guess she just doesn't like me, but is there any way to fix this?
@procrastinator Does she talk to you at all? Can you riff off of what she does want to talk about?
@Polina That's what I do. And if she shuts down the conversation, I apologize and drop it. It's just frustrating to spend every Christmas feeling like I'M the nosy/psycho relative. At this point, I think our only safe topic is "Downton Abbey."
@procrastinator okay but you can talk about "Downton Abbey" FOR DAYS and also there is a 2 hour Christmas special coming!!!!!!!!!!
@procrastinator I feel like I've turned into "the quiet one" at family functions because of this. I'm afraid of stepping on toes, so I just sit back and watch the shenanigans.
*pastes to wall*
Ugh, Hairpin, I needed this. I thought I was going to be able to spend my first holidays away from my family drama for polite, reasonable reasons:
1. My new job situation in my post-college timezone incidentally made long-term vacation planning impossible this year, and late-term vacation planning, unaffordable!
2. Your First Christmas Away From Home is a part of growing up! I have a degree now, so Growing Up is an interest of mine!
3. I was invited to the SO's local family gathering anyway! They like me and are nice!
BUT NOW they are going to trundle into a car and VISIT ME because I hinted that I was housesitting for a professor starting the 27th and would have bedroom space available if, maybe, my super sweet mom and awesome college-aged-but-living-at-home sister wanted to visit me. This is after my super sweet mom disclosing earlier this year, in a moment of crying and weakness, that my homophobic dickbag dad was being abusive and controlling toward her also (!!!), and then effectively avoiding all my attempts at a follow-up conversation about it all fall, and trying to steer me on the phone into agreeing that my dad is actually great and don't I miss him and want to see him too? She is still being cagey about who all will "maybe" make the guestlist for the trip to see me?? And I have this horrible feeling that my dad is coming????
Hairpinners and booze, save me.
My friend often said life is lack of passion till he met a cutest girl Angel on –CasualLoving dot c'0m–. It's where for men and women looking for intimate encounters.
It's a first and safe place for people who wanna to start a short-term relationship….no bounds or limits in front of true love.
Gah! All this talk about Christmas and family are making me want to turn into a wolf and live in the wilderness forever. I would make a really good wolf.
"Are you sure you want another piece of pie?" asks my Nana, as she pats my (ample, and fuck you I'm proud of it) behind.
"YUP!" says me.
Thanks for reminding me that my life is for LIVING and not for, oh, you know, doing everything my ENTIRE EXTENDED FAMILY tells me to do.
p.s. PUDDING CUPS 4EVS.