Questionably Tattooed Manchildren and New Uses for Old Jars
So, here's a question you guys probs get all the time, but I have to ask it because there is a crazy hamster in my brain who will just. not. get. off. the. wheel.
I am a pretty good-looking lady of 33 years. I like sex, I'm funny, I have plenty of friends, I own my house. I have a graduate degree. I have a job I really like. Fun, right? Yes! It's great … but … I would like to get a steady man in on the action, and I can't seem to find a bro who wants a bite of my cool life sandwich.
I am one of the few "professionals" in my friend group. No judging, it just is what it is — I made choices that made me happy, everyone else is making choices that make them happy, fine. But most of the dudes who I like and bring home are in bands or waiting tables or bartending or something, and I think that my job/house/"together" lifestyle freaks them out. This scenario plays out over and over.
Most recently, I went on some really fun dates with a guy I met online who is a really cute dirtbag covered in questionable tattoos who is a great drummer, a fantastic lay, and sweet, and smart. The first time he had me over to his house, he was kind of drunk and got self-conscious about his dwelling — a typical bro-fort: piles of books and records, dark, crazy paint-job on the walls, etc. — and I brushed it off, told him I didn't care, and we made out and listened to records, and went to breakfast the next morning. Awesome. Two dates later, I showed up to his house to see a movie (looking maybe a little too foxy for the occasion, but I like looking good on a date!), and the same thing happened again when we got to his house. This time, he's been super-distant. It's happening again. I will like a man, he will seem to get weirded out by my life, get down on his own life, and then he'll drift off. I swear, I'm not a troll. I don't think I'm too clingy. A post-coital text asking for my earrings isn't crazy, is it?! And then a follow-up three days later?!
It doesn't help that I'm currently teaching the play A Streetcar Named Desire, and that I'm Blanche's age, evidently "eligible," in love with men and whiskey, and looking for something that lasts more than a few hot, sweaty nights. What the fuck, dude? Do I have to start dating other teachers?! They are so earnest and boring! Do I have to go back to grad school?! Am I too happy with my own set-up? I'm about to put on a pretty outfit and pretend I'm at a party from my own debutante days, and forget the fact that I'm spending another drunk night alone in my tiny, affordable (but cute) house! Please, some advice and reassurance! PLEASE! I can't continue to feel like I can only rely on the kindness of strangers for sex and affection.
There’s no such thing as being too happy with your own set-up or looking a little too foxy on a date. You have a career, and a house and irresponsible friends. You shouldn’t feel the need to sacrifice any of that, especially when your barometer is an insecure dirtbag. You’ve described your recent partners, and they all sound like the same questionably tattooed manchild. Nothing wrong with having a type, in and of itself, some people eat the same thing for breakfast every day for their entire lives, and it always tastes delicious.
My question is, why are you spending so much time in bro-forts if it doesn’t make you feel good? It doesn’t even make the bro of said fort feel good to be in the bro-fort and he built the stupid thing out of his childhood fantasies. Are you trying to become the millennial Blanche DuBois? Is this some kind of Method teaching? Blanche was a fictional, drunken loon and a metaphor for an entire region and generation. You’re a real person. What you need is a change of scenery. As trite as that sounds, it’s the truth. Even when you dipped into the vast pool of the internet, you picked up a drummer. Come on, lady. Didn’t he have pics of his raggedy-ass studio apartment on his profile? Next time, go against type. No more forts, only castles. Pick the guy who’s really into something you’re into (like Broadway dramas) or who appears to have a nicely designed home (I swear I’m not being funny) or writes a bio as descriptive and funny as your question. Maybe a playwright or something. Or advertising copywriter. I don’t know. Find some dude who may not be your cup of warm Jameson on first impression but shares some of your hopes and dreams.
In real life, do you have male friends? Guys you just enjoy spending time with. What are they like? Why do you hang out with them? I’m not suggesting you appraise these guys as potential sexual partners, though you could, but take some time to figure out what basic qualities you appreciate in men you know well, men you’ve spent many sober hours with. Then take that list of qualities along on your next quest for romance.
There are plenty of guys out there who are professional and grounded and interesting, but, if you really want to get off the hamster wheel, you’re going to have to make more of an effort to find them, and don’t be too presumptuous. Some teachers may be boring, but just as many are wild lunatics, in a positive and enriching sense, of course. And, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that, unless you’re going out with Lars Ulrich (and you shouldn’t be), some drummers/bartenders/waiters are going through a period of personal transition, which is just as boring as grading papers. Some of them are careerist and awesome. Stop picking the low-hanging fruit.
In all honesty, I know that most of us want to meet someone special that we can share our lives with, but I wonder if we (you) also take for granted that this person will just stumble into a bar by chance and interrupt our conversation with the bartender. They will, most likely, not. And since we’re not like our grandparents, who seemed happy to marry the first nice person they met, nor are we like our parents who may have felt obligated to marry the first nice person they met, we’re all going to have to approach this dating business with a little more diligence and rigor than a Google search. You seem to take your professional and home life seriously, so why not your love life? Don’t be a metaphor for this generation.
As an avid reader of the “Ask a Dude” column, I appreciate the candor with which the dudes address the most sensitive of subjects — providing tough love while still respecting the sexual liberation of the contemporary woman. I have always considered myself a woman of the 21st century — uninhibited by the Judge Judy-types who scoff at pre-marital sex, let alone double-digit numbers. I’ve had loving sex in the confines of a relationship, casual sex with good friends, one night stands, and pretty much everything in between. With the exception of a few small penises and a whiskey dick or two, I’ve had a good … err … ride? However, I recently realized that more than a few of my escapades have been the result of alcohol, and the 10s I met at 2 a.m. were more like 2s when I saw them in the sober light of day at 10 a.m. Thanks to my supportive (and also religious) gal pal, I am now the proud owner of what we have lovingly dubbed the Slut Jar — a bedazzled plastic vessel in which I place money if I engage in a nefarious inebriated sex act. A drunken one night stand is $5, whereas a hickey (come on, we aren’t 12) constitutes a $10 fine. However, when I’m “good” I get to take money out — $5 for a sober date, $1 for a drunken evening free of romping. This has worked like magic — in four weeks I have had zero drunken humpfests and one booze-induced DTR with the guy I’ve been quietly crushing on for months.
All rainbows and butterflies and puppies, right? Wrong. Despite my efforts to be a bit more reserved when it comes to P-in-V play, my crush was put off by my previous escapades. He confessed to months of infatuation, but said (in not so many words) that my previous attitude toward biblical relations made him nervous about any long-term potential. What is a reformed slut to do?! (Feminists — burn me at the stake for using the word; but 30 partners does a slut make… I’ll own it!) I live in a relatively small community and pretty much every guy I know either knows about my past dalliances or could easily find out. I’m not ashamed of anything I’ve done, but I don’t want my past to define me. How does a gal who wants to shed the skank rep move her name from the “DTF” to the “take home to mom” list?
If all was right, there’d be a country & western singer named Tammy with a hit named “A Whiskey Dick or Two,” but here we are, in a world where a woman calls herself a slut for sleeping with a number of partners that she’s not ashamed of and then apologizes for it to feminists. I don’t think I even understand where that puts us. Somewhere not good, I believe.
As a resident of one of the largest cities in the world, my inclination is to tell you to just move here and get on with your life. Megalopolises are very forgiving. But that wouldn’t really help. Regarding your basic question, of how to de-skank yourself, I’m actually more concerned about the drinking. The one thing you feel good about is staying sober and not hooking up. Everything else is a mess. Even the DTR (Define The Relationship, for the olds) was a cocktail party. What’s going on with you, lady? What happened that sparked this recent trend of alcoholic regret? If you need the equivalent of a swear jar to stay on the straight line, maybe you should consider speaking with someone trained in addictive behaviors about this. I mean, I’m glad the jar has worked, to some degree, but its effectiveness is going to have diminishing returns, especially when “being good” ultimately means there’s no money in the jar with which to reward yourself. You’re actually rewarding yourself for doing the thing you’re trying to stop doing. In my day, the money in a swear jar went to building a new church steeple or outhouse. You sinned, and you were punished. You never got the money back. Never. The “slut jar” is a zero-sum act of contrition. Man, what has happened to small town America?
The thing is, if you’re unhappy about a pattern of behavior (regrettable sex), you have to determine the source of that behavior and address it (the drinking?). Otherwise, you’re asking the wrong questions (you might be). Have you ever had regrettable sober sex? I mean on the same level as your drunken encounters. If you have, then I’ve misjudged, but it seems you’re saying you haven’t. If that’s the case, then you should stop playing games about your usage of alcohol to deal with certain things in your life. You don’t want to end up standing in your kitchen at 10 a.m. ten years from now, alone, staring at an empty jar, an empty bottle and a passed-out 2.
I am in a new relationship (one month) with a dude that I could possibly see myself with long term (or at least it is a consideration at this very early stage). He is fun, we have a lot in common and he is an overall "good guy" — the kind that would probably NEVER cheat on anyone. So, yay for me!
He has never been married, but I was married for about three years. I was young, my husband (now ex) was my first real relationship and I basically didn't know what I was doing when I said yes. I mean — married at 24!! Why is that even legal!? We divorced because I grew up, learned more about myself and realized that I was with the wrong person. Along the way, I cheated with someone I met through work. I harbor tons of guilt over this. I never ever thought I would do something like that. It still haunts me. A lot. But it has also made me way less judgmental of others — I can see how and why people make mistakes. It has also made me realistic (not jaded) about adult relationships. Like the song "The Sadder but Wiser Girl," I am no longer the "bright-eyed, blushing, breathless baby-doll baby." And I think he likes that about me. I am real.
The issue is that I feel like I need to tell the new guy at some point down the line the whole truth about my past. He should know that I cheated on my husband. That I did an awful thing. But that I learned from it and it has shaped me into the person I am today, the person he is dating. I do not want to be defined by this act, but I do want the air to be totally clear.
My question to you is do you agree that I need to disclose this information? It could end things between us, which would really suck. But then that would make him a judgmental type, which is not really my thing anyway. Or, what if he says he is OK with my past but then every time I'm even talking to another guy, he gets jealous/possessive? I couldn't handle that either.
If your answer is yes that I need to tell him, then how do you think I should do it?
Last question (jeez, I am so needy) — when do I tell him? I would rather not get too attached if this is going to be a deal breaker, so part of me wants to make this confession sooner than later. But, I also don't want to jump the gun and say too much too soon. The more he gets to know me, the more he'll realize this is not my typical modus operandi when in a relationship.
Any sound advice is welcome.
You’ve both been in previous relationships. You’ve both made mistakes in your lives. You’ve both been in love with other people. You’ve both had sex with other people. Ta-da, you’re human.
No one on planet earth is perfect (except Edith and Jane and the rest of the contributors here at The Hairpin™), so don’t be so hard on yourself. You were in a bad situation and made an immature decision. But you were literally immature. This is exactly why no one should marry their first serious boyfriend/girlfriend unless they live on some weird island and can’t get off it. There is so much to learn before you make that kind of commitment.
But to answer your question, there is no need to tell this guy about what happened. Now or ever, really. What would be the point? To unburden your conscience? If that’s what you need, talk to a friend or confidant or therapist. Right now you’re projecting your feelings onto him and predicting nothing but negative results. You didn’t kill anyone, and you’re not a bad person. Deal with your own feelings about it on your own, and let this brand new relationship develop separately. At some point, it will be obvious if it’s something you want or need to share with him or some other guy.
I'm all about keeping it simple so here it goes … nudie photos, what are your general thoughts?
They’re good.
Previously: Man Secrets and "What About That Other Thing I Was Doing?"
A Dude is one of several rotating dudes who know everything. Do you have any questions for A Dude?
Photo by Jeff Banke, via Shutterstock
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Upshot of being Blanche DuBois: you look like Vivien Leigh.
Blanche DuBois was only meant to be 33?! Oh sweet crap.
@teaandcakeordeath I know. It's like when I discovered that Anne Bancroft was 36 when she played Mrs. Robinson.
@datalass WHAT. That's it. Goodbye, cruel world.
@kayjay Seriously. And in the insult to injury department, Dustin Hoffman was 30 at the time of that film.
@datalass world. crashing down.
@datalass OMG WTF I DON'T EVEN … is pretty much what my brain did when I read that.
@kayjay Seriously, me too. I was like "Oh just kill me now."
@teaandcakeordeath Ha, that was my first reaction too!
"…but here we are, in a world where a woman calls herself a slut for sleeping with a number of partners that she’s not ashamed of and then apologizes for it to feminists. I don’t think I even understand where that puts us. Somewhere not good, I believe."
This. This. This. This.
@julia Yes. I like this Dude.
@julia 30 dicks make you automatically a slut? Apparently I went for platinum Slut status at some point.
@julia LURVE this A Dude. Particularly for this.
@MoonBat Yes.
@parallel-lines do you get discounts at certain stores when you reach platinum slut status?
@julia Yeah, this dude is awesome. Especially for that line. Right on, dude.
@gfrancie I understand you need executive platinum slut status for the really good perks.
Response to LW4 is both accurate and relevant to my interests.
I just came downstairs here for a sec to say "In Love with Men and Whiskey" would be a great title for a raucously scandalous memoir. (And I'm going to try to work "take a bite of my cool life sandwich" into a conversation before the end of the day. Okay, back up to the rest.)
@HydrogenJukebox Yep, just skipped down for a brief mome to say Streetcar metaphor = awesome = LW1 you are awesome and awesome people should date you annnd I have confidence that they will! (This isn't very helpful advice, but I just really like this first LW and want her to knowwww)
@emilylouise I also came down here before finishing this article to throw some love LW1's way. Seriously, HUG. You are awesome, I would take a bite of your cool life sandwich, I second the things said by emilylouise and @HydrogenJukebox.
@pterodactgirl Nth'd, you sound lovely, and it makes me sad in the same way as a high number of sex partners being a bad thing makes me sad that you should ever feel any need to apologize for being an wonderful together lady.
@HydrogenJukebox
Well, as an "earnest and boring" teacher, I personally thought LW1 sounded like a stupid bitch. So, there's that.
@anonymass Agreed. Trying way too hard to be cool, and apparently feels entitled to have someone love her based on her "accomplishments," i.e. lame job and degrees. I think the "life sandwich" thing ended it for me.
@WaityKatie Eh, I think there's some kind of mandatory style guide for writing in to these columns – blase, self-deprecating braggadocio, or something. Maybe I'm just super old, but I often cringe a little, even though in real life I bet the LWs are not as smug, manic, or whatever as they sound.
LW #2, just wait it out. Eventually, people find something else to talk about. If they're even talking about it. I find that, many times, people just don't give a crap about where you've been and who was with you when you went there, because they've got their own crap to manage. Wait long enough, and everyone forgets, moves or finds another distraction.
LW#1- You don't just date a person, you date their lifestyle as well. This goes both ways. When people don't have settled lifestyles, I think it's on purpose most of the time (consciously or subconsciously).
@MrComment Unfortunately when LW1 says other teachers are "too earnest and boring", perhaps thats how non-teachers view her as well.
@saraphonic I think it's more how she might view herself, hence all the tattooed manchildren. Not trying to bash this lady, but maybe she's afraid that by dating a dude who has his shit together will doom her to never be cool again.
@MrComment The teachers thing makes no sense to me. She is a teacher. That is like the ladies that are all like "I don't like lady-folk because I like gin and The Big Lebowski." What?
I will grant that earnestness towards the job is perhaps a bit necessary in teaching. I mean, most folks aren't doing it for the big cash, they are doing it because they believe their work is important and find it fulfilling. HOWEVER I know some really wild teachers? Teachers in bands that play to full bars every weekend and teachers in polyamorous relationships and teachers with tattoos and piercings. That describes a large minority of my colleagues, and I work in a conservative suburb…
@MrComment Yeah, I'm wondering if it's posible that they are earnest and boring because they are at work and are acting like people who are at work–what if you go out for happy hour?
@OhMarie Excellent, excellent point.
@MissMushkila Yeah, I know a lot of AWESOME teachers, who are super cool and not boring at all. Maybe she needs to get to know her fellow teachers a little bit more instead of having this preconceived view of them that they're all boring.
@saraphonic My bf is a teacher and I know teachers dating teachers can be a weird thing – teaching is a super intense profession and he said when he went on dates with other teachers it just devolved into bitching about board of ed policy and union stuff. They bonded more over the awfulness of their jobs than over other things in common. But, there is good news–there are plenty of people out there to date who aren't teachers!
@parallel-lines My husband and I are both teachers, but we were together before we started teaching so there is that. But jeez…not all teachers are boring. I know lots of wild and crazy guy teachers. Some are even tattooed manchildren.
@parallel-lines One of the many two types of people that I think there are in the world are people who like to date people into the same work as they are and people who like to date people into very different hobbies/ambitions. And I think they both have upsides.
Me? I prefer my men to do something I know nothing about because I like learning about things. Like your man, I think it can be sort of intense/competitive dating someone in the same profession as me. But I don't believe this is really unique to teaching.
However, the important thing is to share similar values. Right? And it sounds like the tattooed manchildren do not share LW1's lifestyle outlook/values.
Basically just agreeing with what you say!
Um, LW4, just be careful, because maybe your gmail gets hacked and the horrible people find things in your sent folder and then hack into your Facebook account and then post the pictures for all your friends and family to see and also send them into Reddit.com and it's horrible, but you manage to shut everything down and then it all happens again 24 hours later.
Just you know, I have heard that can happen….
@missvancity Ugh. Reddit is the WORST. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
@Nate Jones@twitter Thanks man. It seemed like the worst thing in the world at the time, but now it's the funny story of the time my ass was all over the internet!
@missvancity Ouch. This is part of the reason that I quit Facebook and Reddit. The number of incriminating photos I've taken has exceeded my ability to control them. What happened, did someone have an axe to grind or was it just a chance occurrence?
@charizard I believe it was chance occurrence. I did have the police start an investigation, but once they found out I had no angry ex boyfriends or stalkers or anything they seemed at a loss.
@missvancity Okay, this freaks me the hell out. I'm so sorry it happened, but glad it's cool now.
@charizard Well it is not something I would wish to happen to anyone, ever, but like, it's done, what are you gonna do? I'm a lot more careful with my passwords now, and there are no more pictures of my ass, ever, and that's that.
Oh, and also, there is nothing wrong with dating someone who waits tables. I have never judged a potential mate on their choice of occupation. I just, you know, prefer that they have one.
@kayjay Happy girlfriend of 39-year-old restaurant employee/working musician here. It can happen. I realize that, eventually, I will be living in a partial guy-fort of comic books and guitar cases and boring video games and I don't care one bit; the guy is worth the fort (and the fort is really not bad at all).
@Hellcat Well alright! Mine is a 37 year old working musician who gave up a pretty lucrative career touring so he wouldn't miss the chance to see his daughter grow up. When I met him, he was waiting tables and might have been considered by many to be not a terribly good prospect. He is a wonderful person and a terrific father. And I'm currently living in a dude fort made of comic books, video games and every instrument known to man, and I LOVE IT! Wouldn't have it any other way.
@kayjay Apologies for the shitty grammar. I got excited.
@kayjay Solidarity! My man is a 37 year old server/artist (a painter, to be specific) and he's the shit. I've dated my fair share of "non-professionals" (my mom has referred to this guy as such, yeah) and the key is finding one who's not intimidated by your success. They are out there, and likely their definition of success is not solely related to income. I'll take my starving artist over the guy with the dead end full time job any day. My parents, however, would much prefer I stuck with the latter…
@kayjay and @Hellcat I totally agree with this, and I think LW1 does too. She seems to be saying that the waiters/musicians/dudes who live in these bro-forts don't seem to be comfortable with HER. Which I can totally see, because I have been in that position. As @idkmybffjill says, it's about finding one who doesn't become defensive due to the difference in lifestyles.
@kayjay I actually hit "Reply" before I meant to… darn pesky boss sneakily wandering about like that.
Anyway, it's not that I don't believe that these "types" are never man-children (I'm not even certain mine is not, to an extent), just as I don't assume that every besuited business man is not some lunkhead frat-boy at heart. And, believe me, my (former musician) dad laughed and laughed when he learned of my pizza guy/bassist new-at-the-time boyfriend. But he works hard at everything, pays his bills, and manages to do what he likes to do at night, even if he has to get up early the next day. Again, I don't harbor a delusion that all the musicians and boy-fort dwellers are viable candidates for responsible ladies to comfortably settle down with; if it's not your thing, it's not your thing. But the letter made me think she was making a lot of assumptions based on his lifestyle, not the least of which was that he was freaked out by her successful grown-upness. But did he say that? Is there any reason to believe he doesn't have a big responsible savings account or that he's unhappy with his apartment or that he would be opposed to making changes to it? And, I am not saying this to be mean, but maybe he was "just not that into" her for reasons other than her daunting lifestyle. She says "seems to get weirded out by [her] life," but doesn't say that he says so.
I'm being wordy… but maybe the "distant drifting" is for other reasons, be they something else about her or his own issues that may or may not have to do with dissonant living-space styles. Maybe he's just a jerk who doesn't know how to politely say, "Thanks but no thanks."
@Hellcat I like to do the table-turny thing when I think about this. I do NOT want to a potential life partner to identify me by my occupation. Because I kind of loathe my job, even though it pays well and provides security for myself and my daughter. Furthermore, I don't want to be defined by my ever-fluctuating bank account, or, god forbid, my tattoos (one of them is…meh, not my finest moment). Therefore, I can only show the same understanding to anyone I date/mate/go steady with. Looks can be very misleading, as you say, and many might see that waiter/musician/glass blower/topiary artist with the less-than-stellar apartment as a bad bet, but maybe he's just doing what he has to in order to get by. There's so much we don't know.
And, @Carrie Ann, sadly, a dude not feeling defensive about a lady's career choice/perceived stability is a double-edged sword. A lot of people perceive that non-defensiveness as being okay with being taken care of by a "sugar mama".
In short, life is long. We all go through times of hardship and times of abundance. There is nothing more transient than money, and you never know when it's all going to go to shit. I would hope (and expect) that my dudefriend/husband would step in and assist if I suddenly found myself in a position of unemployment, and I would do the same for him.
I think I got way off base here. What were we talking about? Famous people's bedrooms or something?
@Carrie Ann I definitely see where discomfort can come into play regarding vast income differences; once in a while, it happens with me and the BF. He's had it pretty easy rentwise his whole life and I haven't. And there are times when he worries that he can't "keep up" or something (and there are times when I secretly think, "You spoiled baby with that cheap-ass rent!). And I think it's perfectly OK to not give it a try with someone if you think that it is too big a hurdle; everyone's got different priorities and, I guess, criteria. If it's important to you, then you probably have a good reason for finding it so. I'm just not seeing in the letter the evidence of that particular thing being the deal-breaker for the guy. And it does kind of seem like the letter-writer is (A) really attached to the idea of being with a "type" so that others view her as not boring, because (B) teachers simply can't be fun, which is as bad as assuming anyone with a "guy" apartment is a perpetual child. And they've had two dates; how does she know he thinks she's too fancy for him? And if he does think that, then he's being a weirdo sad-sack; who wants to be with someone to whom she'd have to apologize for achieving something? But, to me, it just sounds like she might be blaming lack of interest on his part on her awesomeness.
@kayjay Oh, the double-edged sword of sugar-mamatude! I know. I got riled at my BF once when he told me that his coworkers teased him about a gift I got him (a PS3, why'd I do it? Now I have to hear about it all the livelong day!) and the fact that we went on vacation. I think his point was that he told others about this stuff because it made him happy, but stupid, insecure me interpreted it as some locker-roomesque, "You guys, I can get this needy chick to do everything for me… bow to my prowess!" My friend talked me down by noting that I was the one who wanted to go on vacation and, because I wanted him to drop everything and go too, the only way to make that happen was to pay the bill.
@Hellcat Exactly, or maybe they had sex a couple times and he lost interest and moved on to the next. It's not like that is an unprecedented thing for guys to do.
@kayjay This is kind of beside the point, but it made me so happy that you got so excited about your lovely man that you forgot the rules of grammar. That is all.
@WaityKatie Yeah, and it's not unprecedented for anyone to do; casual dates and sex are, among other things, about seeing if you might like to be with a person. Sometimes you just don't. I tend to think that if someone has some dough and a "grown-up" lifestyle, all the better and points for him on the "Pros" half of my mental list, especially if everything else about him is wonderful too.
LW #1: Wait, are you me? Did I get drunk and write this letter and forget? Oh wait, I don't own a house. But seriously WHY AM I ONLY ATTRACTED TO IDIOT HIPSTER MANCHILDREN?!?! Maybe because I am mostly attracted to men with beards and all the men with beards in Brooklyn are hipster manchildren? BUT WHY CAN'T THERE BE EVEN ONE CUTE BEARDED BOY IN BROOKLYN WHO IS NOT A HIPSTER MANCHILD?!?!
LW #2: Not to be the feminist yelling at you about it, but. . .if a guy is seriously doubting your long term potential because you like sex and have had a lot of it, eff him. That guy just sucks.
@paddlepickle Yeah, I was coming down here to say that. Your crush sounds like a jerk/guy with issues.
@Tragically Ludicrous I don't necessarily agree with that. It sounds like the guy wasn't really comfortable being a one night stand. He may have been asking for reassurance that she saw him differently from the other ones. If he's looking for a long term relationship, it would require a change in her behavior, wouldn't it?
@paddlepickle move away from brooklyn to a lumberjack habitat?
@tactfactory That is actually not a terrible idea.Where them lumberjacks at?
@MrComment If that's what his concern was, he would have just said "I'm not a one night stand am I?" and she would have said "Nope I like you more than any one night stand I've had and I want a committed relationship with you" and he would have said "Okeedokee great!" There's no reason her having had one night stands in the past would affect her ability to be in a committed relationship once she's decided she wants to be one.
@MrComment yes. while i think the Dude's advice re: alcohol is excellent there are lots of open questions to address re: crush. did she tell him about her recent change of heart? how did he respond to that?
in a small town it might take a little while for people to change the way they think of her but hopefully it is still possible.
@paddlepickle Oh, I don't think so. In theory maybe, but given that he knows her history and even she questions her judgment and whether she's actively making choices or not, I think it's fair to consider her behavior over her words. If it were a dude who was a known player and finally work his way around to this one lady (months later) that had feelings for him, we would expect more than a single statement of assurance from him.
@Tragically Ludicrous I think it depends on the situation. It's a small town, how many guys that she still hangs out with has she slept with? Sorry, but it's a bit awkward when you're all hanging out having fun and oh hey! you've banged my girl too! we all have something in common! goes the same for guys too. If you're constantly throwing yourself at people for a lay whenever you go out, it's kind of skanky, man or woman.
@paddlepickle your question is rhetorical. there are no bearded non hipsters in brooklyn, it's just the way it is. this woman is being fairly judgmental, thinking that all office types are boring. by going for just the hipster types, she's setting herself up for failure. I work in financial aid. boring office type right? wrong. financial aid folk are some of the funnest, outgoingest party people i've ever hung out with. she needs to go deeper here, and take a chance on somebody outside of her norm.
@MrComment I agree with you here — I mean, we don't know exactly what the guy said to her, but it's totally reasonable and not offensive for a guy to say "Hey, you sleep around a lot, are you going to want to stay with me and only me for a while?"
@treeskier170 I have no problem with financial aid. Do you have a beard?
@MrComment I guess I was going more on what she said, but we have no evidence that she can't commit to someone. She said she's enjoyed sex in relationships, with casual friends and with one night stands. That describes me too and I've never ever cheated in a relationship or had trouble no longer having one night stands when I was in one. But I get what you mean; she's questioning her own judgement so maybe her description of her sex life isn't the whole story.
@paddlepickle One of the happiest days ever for me was the day when my (stable, non-hipstery, nerdy, wonderful) beau announced he was growing a beard. I was all "great boyfriend and now I get A BEARD, too?!"
It is so great and so snuggly. I feel as though I have won at life(beards.)
(This was just a straight forward brag. Nothin' humble about it.)
@H.E. Ladypants OOoh but that could be a good strategy tip! I can find a great guy AND THEN MAKE HIM GROW A BEARD FOR ME.
@paddlepickle
Lumberjacks are no better. They just sleep all night and work all day.
@H.E. Ladypants
Growing my beard was one of the best decisions I ever made. I like to think I set an example for other men who see me on the street or in their places of business, and for today's otherwise directionless youth.
@paddlepickle Re: Lumberjacks, That would be Canada. I have found myself an adorable, bearded lumberjack from some obscure small town in British Columbia. He's bearded but neither man-child-y NOR hipster-y! (Okay, a tiny bit hipstery, but that's from the town we live in now, not from Canada)
@steve: They put on women's clothing, and hang around in bars.
@treeskier170 excuse me but I am married to a bearded nonhipster in Brooklyn.
@paddlepickle Wyoming, Montana, Utah… basically any state that is a square/rectangle.
@MrComment Well, "her judgement" was more from sleeping with 2s while she was single mingling. She wasn't cheating while in a committed relationship, so it should be irrelevant.
I can't imagine caring about the quantity of people a potential mate sleeps with while their single. That just seems like blossoming jealousy/virgin complex.
I got stuck in the professional lady dating dudebro/dirtbags thing for a couple years until a girlfriend literally shook me and was like, stop dating the same dude over and over again! Like, maybe I was dating these hipster-ish dudes because they validated my coolness and made me feel a little less boring/profesh vicariously? But I kept getting my heart smashed because they weren't down for a 9-5 and my having money (which they were broke) hurt their egos. So I raised my standards a lot and only dated guys on my wavelength–I wanted a grown up. I know that's way harsh Tai, but I knew I was ready for a serious relationships and if you weren't it was easier not even bother in the first place. You don't have a job or direction in life (like, you're at least working towards something?). Nope–sorry, we're not on the same page. You can't pay your bills or cook for yourself or have a semblence of an adult living situation that doesn't involve furniture from college years covered in pizza stains? Sorry. And most importantly – you're too busy worrying about being cool to treat me well? Hell no. All of those things are fine in other relationships but it's not what I wanted in a long term partner – I wanted someone who wanted the same things in life. And upon putting that into place, the dudebros and noncommital hipster dudes sort of fell away and I ended up with someone I probably wouldn't have ever given the time of day five years ago and he treats me so, so, so well which is pretty much everything at the end of the day. I just had to move out of my comfort zone. You deserve the real thing–don't lower your standards!
@parallel-lines Oh, and he's a teacher. Listen to a dude!
@parallel-lines Yeah. My tastes tend to lean sort of in the scruffy/slacker direction anyway but I find that the level of personal mess/irresponsibility/amount of pot smoked daily I am willing to put up with directly correlates with how bored and trapped I feel in my job/life at that time.
@parallel-lines Can I ask how you met him? Because I was in a similar situation as LW1 and you (and I suspect many other HPers). I agree with what you said about that pattern maybe being indicative of not wanting to settle down. I also think it maybe is a way to indulge the more, err, creative side (for lack of a better term) that might be less prioritized when in a certain career path. But I do want to also say to LW1, don't count on grad school as a sure bet. I was hopeful and then crushed. Although I don't even have time to date so there's that.
@parallel-lines agreed. she writes off all other teachers as "boring", which sounds like she's got a guy-selecting issue and maybe some stereotyping issues. after all, she's a teacher and apparently not boring.
@tiny dancer Online dating! Usually it sucks and sometimes it works. His profile was pretty meh but after going out with severals dudes who judged me by my vinyl collection and lack of ink I was like, fuck it, give this dude a try. And it wasn't immediate OMG let's do this (it took a bit of convincing) but at one point I was at a party and saw him across the room and thought, "What the fuck is wrong with you, this dude likes you, shit he like-likes you and you're still out chasing beardos on track bikes." I went over and grabbed his hand and took him home and the rest is history.
@parallel-lines Another question, Oh Succesfully Found A Non-Loser One; can I ask how old you were when you met this guy?
Part of my problem is I'm professionally together-ish and 24, and there seems to be a severe dearth of non man-children around my age. The only guy I've dated who had his shit together was 15 years older than me, and we broke up because he was ready for marriage and mortgages and kids pretty much ASAP and me not so much. I just want someone with his shit together who isn't way older than me, because I still have growing up to do too.
@paddlepickle yeah, some dudes take a while to grow up. even my awesome guy friend sounds like he was a bit of a mess in his twenties. BUT! parallel-lines is super right! online dating helps you find the thing you are looking for instead of the thing that is in front of your face.
@paddlepickle I think it's a grass-is-greener problem. When I was a 24-year-old dude who had my shit together (and even now I'm not THAT much older), I couldn't get women my age to give me the time of day because they all assumed I was looking for something more serious than they were. It's gotten a little better as I've gotten older (and so have the women in my dating pool), but it's not all sunshine and roses here in Dude-who-has-his-shit-together-Land. For every woman who's into that kind of thing, there are plenty more like LW#1 who think you're the boringest sack of snoozeville that ever snoozed.
@paddlepickle I was in my thirties…which is weird because I feel like we sort of bought into the Reality Bites mentality. Why did she end up with Ethan Hawke instead of Ben Stiller? Ethan Hawke was a mean dirtbag–so what if he quoted Foucault, he was a massive douche.
Twentysomthings are a mixed bunch, and in NYC I don't know a lot of people who get married at that age so I'm not sure I'm qualified to speculate on the marriagability of 24 year old dudes.
I started being a lot more ruthless in dating and unafraid to cut people loose and say no. Like, you don't call me back – bye! Done. I'm not chasing. You're being sketchy–later, I'm out. It feels weird to stand up for yourself sometimes but fake it 'til you make it. People will treat you as badly as you let them, so don't let them. Any one who isn't good to you isn't worth it.
Off my soapbox, I swear. I have said too much already.
@parallel-lines This whole letter and this thread and everything about it is the chapter in Mindy Kaling's book about dating a man and not a boy.
@thebestjasmine I want to read that! I also loved Julie Klausner's "I Don't Care About Your Band" – it's excellent for hipster dating addiction.
@Emby Anyone who says "boringest sack of snoozeville that ever snoozed" can't be THAT boring! I won't stand for it.
@parallel-lines ahem* You GO girl.
@parallel-lines Haha don't apologize, that is very good advice! And I think that's slowly what I've started to do. . .I've seen a couple frustrating quasi-relationships coming in the past couple months and cut them off early because I wasn't willing to take all the initiative or put up with any bullshit.
I mean, shit, I don't want to get married at 24 either, I just want a long-term relationship with a guy whose not an idiot. The ruthless approach will probably work, but I'll be having a lot less sex in the meantime, so that part is unfortunate.
@paddlepickle Although if I can't properly distinguish between "whose" and "who's" my chances of finding a brilliant awesome guy with diminish. Doh.
@parallel-lines "People will treat you as badly as you let them, so don't let them. Any one who isn't good to you isn't worth it."
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!! This is the key to everything. No matter what you're looking for in a relationship, make this the cornerstone of your philosophy and you will be so much happier. It confounds me/makes me sad/mad that so many of my friends can't seem to grasp this concept.
@parallel-lines oh damn… My last boyfriend was apparently a unicorn… He was a hot, bearded hipster AND a teacher… And then he moved back to Australia. BLERG!!!!
@parallel-lines I might be in love with you. The "only treating you as good as you'll let them" is so effing true. Ladies who continually date loser types: find yourself the Scared-Straight of boyfriends. The first sign: he eats YOUR Ben & Jerry's even though you bought him his own. Dump him immediately.
@parallel-lines You gave excellent advice, but mostly I want to give you mad props on "that's way harsh Tai." That is all.
@tiny dancer Jumping in a little late here, but as someone who also has a background in this sort of thing, I might suggest trying to date a graphic designer or some other sort of commercial artist if you can locate one. They are creative types, but also have jobs to go to and paychecks with which to take you out to dinner. Win win!
@Rookie You're just a virgin who can't drive.
Oooof, I like this A Dude an awful lot.
LW#1 – I suspect you are dating down, with a really good attitude about it, but nevertheless dating down. And the objects of your dating down affections can sense it, and it is an off-putting smell. And no amount of self-deprecation about your successful station in life is enough to overpower the dating down pheremones.
LW#3: Listen very carefully to A Dude, for he nailed it. Your past is yours, and no one on this planet is entitled to an explanation of it except you.
@karion – This is so true! I am a bearded man-child in the process of dropping the "-child" part, so I understand the appeal of it all – even though I prefer professional-y women, so many of my friends are basically fuck-ups, because we were all fuck-ups together and they are my Band of Brothers for life, and also because they are fun. But on the dating down…
…I'm bald young, and not the 'ideal body type' of most people (this is because I do things like having atomic wings and fries for lunch, which I did today, even though I know I should be eating salads – losing the "-child" part is a process). I have been with women who have 'slummed it' with me because they found I fit a mold – artsy, philosophy talk, guitar, etc. I have found them all patronizing and annoying, and put up with it because they tended to be gorgeous beyond what I think I can attain (issues!) and, while my comments generally make me out to be a forward-thinking kind of dude, I am also a dude, and can easily be hypnotized by hotness into accepting shitty situations.
BUT! I have a possible remedy for you! There are a sizable amount of dudes out there in a similar boat to me – former man-children who are ready to move on from that lifestyle. You can date them, and get the best of both worlds (for now – they will eventually grow out of it, but I bet they'll be like you, and once in awhile want to have one-night vacations to past behaviours, which you can both revel in). Date them!
BUT! Be cautious. Because the above type of dude is actually two types of dudes – one kind of dude who is gradually growing from man-child to man BECAUSE HE WANTS TO, and believes in it, and may occassionally want a rock to help him in this transition. They are good. The other kind knows they are hopeless man-children, and are looking for womenfolk to mother them into grown-ups. They're the worst kind ever, even worse than hopelessly unabashed manchildren. You can't always tell them apart at first (they generally don't even know which kind they are themselves) but if a dude smells like a type-2, RUN.
@leon.saintjean I generally like your comments and I like your advice in this situation, but I am confused by your humblebragging. What is the point you are trying to make about getting annoyed with the hot, professional women who slummed it with you? That dating down is annoying for both the profesh lady and the manchild in question?
@Sydney C Not to put words in a dude's mouth, but that seemed kind of like a caution that it's easy to turn a guy distant if it's coming across like you're with him as an exotic experience rather than because you like him as a person.
@wharrgarbl @Sydney C – ugh, it does read like a horrible humblebrag what I wrote. I can 100% understand why Sydney read it as such, and am not proud.
Wharrgarbl, you mostly got it. I stressed that the girls were "out of my league" one, because I was trying to say that that is a horrible and dumb way of thinking ("leagues" in general) and the fact that I can't resist it is art of my awful neurosis, but primarily because I felt like this "was an issue". Not that the lady necessarily did, I don't presume to know how this lady, the specific lady I was thinking of with my comment, or any lady thinks. But if a person focuses too much on a single aspect, you come to feel like they are fetishizing that one aspect of you, and that combined with a suspicion that they may feel like they are dating down is just weird. Ugh I am explaining this horribly, just assume I meant what wharrgarbl said.
@karion But… but… but… NO ONE WHO IS NOT ON THE DATING DOWN PLANE WILL DATE ME SO NOW WHAT???? (I didn't write that question. I just… relate.)(Going to go cry now brb.)
@leon.saintjean So maybe you feel that they were fulfilling some narrative in their head that had more to do with how they saw themselves than with who you were specifically?
That's what I took from it, and I've definitely seen it happen.
@Jolie Kerr: sweetheart, you couldn't find the dating down plane with NASA's radar – it simply isn't your style. And no one on that plane ever looks up, so they can't find you, either.
@karion But… it's somehow become my style and I hate these pants why do I keep wearing them??????
@Jolie Kerr: It is harder to quit than smoking!
But unlike smoking, once you break the habit, you have no desire to do it again.
LW2, I think my jaw is on the floor. Slow down, crazy! Stop taking advice from your religious friend. Throw out the jar or fill it with cotton balls (or condoms!) or something. Have all the sex you want, but like the Dude says, examine the circumstances leading to the sex. You are not a slut. You are NOT a slut!!!
@likethestore I love this comment! Not enough thumbs up.
@itmakesmewonder agreed! I want to give all the thumbs!
@itmakesmewonder All the thumbs wouldn't be enough.
LW2, do not be ashamed of your number. It doesn't make you less of a woman or a feminist to have had a lot of sex with a lot of partners. Lots of travel doesn't make your passport dirty. Owning lots of shoes doesn't make your feet impure. Having lots of sex does not wear out your vagina.
@likethestore Yeah that totally killed me. I have slept with that many folks. My boyfriend has slept with twice as many. And yet here we are having a great, long-term, committed adult relationship. Like all adults we've got emotional/sexual baggage from having pasts and what not but trust me, none of it comes from a number. A number is just that. A number.
@likethestore – Seriously. Beware the supportive (and religious!) friend. They may be a nice shoulder to cry on, but they also may try to backdoor you with the Jesus.
@Porporina agreee, & I think I'm going to start saying "Slow down, crazy!" to people
@fabel Haha, all credit goes to the Sassy Gay Friend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwnFE_NpMsE Watch all of them, they are amaaaazing. "Look at your life, look at your choices" is my mantra.
@likethestore I was just about to post the link!
BTW, his use of "You big slut! Good for you!" is the only acceptable way to call someone a slut, even yourself.
@chevyvan Othellno.
@likethestore I say "Look at your life, look at your choices! alllllllll the time and no one ever gets the reference! Oh, Hairpin. You complete me
LW #2: Having 30 partners does not make you a slut. Having 100 partners does not make you a slut. Seriously. No. No it doesn't.
Do you respect your partners and respect yourself? Then you're FINE. Seriously. If you're not respecting your partners, or yourself, that's when you need to re-evalute, which it seems like you've been doing. But I just…it seems like your problem might be more with drinking which leads you to make inappropriate sexual decisions for yourself that you're later unhappy with. But the Slut Jar does not seem like the right way to go about it.
@The Lady of Shalott Right. If you're having regrettable sex, stop having regrettable sex! But the key is the "regrettable" part, not the sex. (Ah, and if only it were that easy…)
A Slut Jar sounds like a plot device on an episode of "2 Broke Girls" or something. Entertaining in theory, sure, but not a real-world solution.
I would also like to echo the above sentiment that multiple partners is not the issue, and being a "slut" (you are notttt a slut, girls who sleep with lots of people!) is not the issue. Regrettable, drunken, whyohwhy-did-I-do-that! sex is the issue. Time to examine why that happens on a regular basis.
I went through a similar-ish period of life when I was in late college, the thing that really made me give myself a kick in the ass was not a jar of billz, it was just me examining my life and "love life" and deciding I deserved better – in regards to physical health (less booze!) and emotional health (better men!). Not to say that I'm perfect now, by any stretch of the imagination. But mornings of intense, confused regret are no longer and everyday lifestyle, and I can't say how glad I am about that. Worth all the money in the world!
@emilylouise For it to work on 2 Broke Girls, the Slut Jar would also have to be racist.
Also, on nudie photos, don't forget about isanyoneup.com. Unfortunately, stuff can fall in the wrong hands and…yeah. It's sad times we're livin' in.
@parallel-lines All you have to do to avoid isanyoneup.com is simple:
1. No faces;
2. No Facebook.
@itmakesmewonder It's not the only site on the internet that caters to that sort of thing. Once they're out there, you lose say in what happens to them.
@parallel-lines Yup. Don't take them unless you're comfortable with literally the entire world seeing them and/or get photos from the recipient that would be deemed by society to be equally humiliating if they ever got out. Sorry, everyone who wanted to have/take nudie pics! Shit like Is Anyone Up? and the ex-girlfriend porn sites are why we can't have nice things! Blame the people who revenge-post or think revenge-posting is okay!
@wharrgarbl – This is one of the reasons it is tragic polaroid film no longer exists.
@leon.saintjean I don't know that that would really help, since scanners do. It's more like "This is one of the reasons it is tragic that I don't have a magic wand." All the haters would be packed off the Phantom Zone, and the rest of us could take as many nudie pics as we want without having to worry about our butt winding up in the boss's inbox.
@itmakesmewonder I'm so lucky that, when my ex husband posted nude pics of me without my knowledge (while we were married), he was respectful enough to post ones that didn't include my face.
@leon.saintjean It still exists!
is it sad that when i read 'blanche,' i immediately thought blanche devereaux?
@becky@twitter no. No it is not.
@becky@twitter Not at all. It is joyous!
@becky@twitter I've always suspected the Blanche Devereaux character/name was the GG creator(s?) homage to Blanche DuBois!
Tell me about it.
LW # 3, here are two quotes from your letter:
"…he is an overall "good guy" — the kind that would probably NEVER cheat on anyone."
"I never ever thought I would do something like [cheat on my husband]."
Do you see what I did there? I just highlighted how you are not a bad person. You are so willing to give this dude the benefit of the doubt that he is awesome based on ONE THING, and yet you aren't willing to cut yourself the same slack. You cheated on your husband in a relationship that ultimately wasn't right for you. That doesn't make you a bad person. Just as it doesn't make someone a good person just because they have never cheated. Cheating happens, period. I think in many cases, it's a function of the relationship being unhealthy, not either party being a horrible person (although I know that is what happens in some cases).
I think there are very few people who, before they've cheated on someone, think that they're going to cheat. After they have cheated, or have been cheated on, or have been the other man/woman, some of them come to have the attitude that you now have about relationships, which I think is a pretty realistic thing to have.
I think that if this issue ever comes up with your new guy, you have nothing to feel bad about. Tell this new dude exactly what you told us: you going through those experiences has made you the kind of person you are today, the kind of person who knows herself well enough not to get into another relationship where cheating will happen.
If he's going to pillory you for having made a mistake in your past, then he's an idjit. If he's going to act all jealous and creepy after finding out, he's an idjit. Hopefully, you two will create a relationship where he knows that you wouldn't cheat on him. I was in a relationship with someone who had cheated on literally every partner they had before me, and yet never cheated on me. The relationship didn't work out, but we had created a relationship where I am confident that cheating didn't occur. It is possible to do this, and I think that it's definitely something you can work toward since you have made mistakes and learned from your experience.
@wee_ramekin If I were that dude, I would be much more worried about her constantly beating herself up over it than I would about a single mistake made in an unhappy relationship in the past.
Yeah, I feel like the third letter is more about her needing to be reassured that she doesn't deserve the Scarlet Letter than it is about whether or not she should show said Scarlet Letter to her partner. There are a lot of scummy things you can do in a marriage besides cheat, and sometimes infidelity is a symptom of larger problems. Maybe I get the sense that she is actually sort of attached to her Scarlet Letter, as a way of making a complicated past situation seem clearly defined.
@OlivettiValentine There's a subtle difference between "I did something shitty and i'm afraid of the consequences" and "what I did wasn't so shitty and if there is any emotional fallout, it's the other person's fault for blowing it out of proportion." if LW3 does does still feel bad for cheating and is nervous about how it will affect her current relationship, then the only cure is to accept kindness and understanding from the current boyfriend and realize that he can be forgiving and cool about it. Otherwise it will always lurk in the back of her mind, saying "he wouldn't love me if he knew about this…" But people DO love each other, faults, errors and all, and accepting that grace is what gets you over the guilty feelings.
@sceps yarx And just to clarify, I do believe that in most circumstances "what I did wasn't so shitty and the other person is blowing it out of proportion" is almost always the correct response. Just not usually in marriage-ending, life-time-guilt-wracking situations.
@wee_ramekin and @ all of the other commentors. You got it right about me. It is me, the author of the letter. And, yes, my biggest issue is the guilt that I carry with me all the time about the cheating. Funny thing is that I did end up confiding in the "overall good guy" boyfriend. I told him everything. And he broke up with me in a very cruel way a few weeks later. A total jerk. I just keep reminding myself that he is the jerk, not me.
@JaneWriter I am so sorry for this guilt you carry, and for the fact that this overall not-nice douche-canoe broke up with you cruelly. In brief: fuck him with something hard and sandpapery.
I have a lot to say on this subject, so forgive the diatribe.
I am of mixed opinion re. sharing your romantic history with a brand-new lover. Obviously, "I have the clap LOLZ" is a key before-the-fact disclosure. Immediately laying out your romantic history's victories and defeats kind of sets up false parameters for your new relationship. Just like other aspects of getting-to-know-you, telling a new lover (a relative stranger) you once cheated may set it in their mind (even wrongly so) as an immutable aspect of your character, i.e., "Just as she said she will always love Skid Row, decoupage and wheatgrass smoothies, she also told me about all this cheating stuff, and could maybe probably could possibly will do it all again. To ME."
Maybe confess to your lover/spouse/whatever that you once cheated on someone if it comes up in a relevant conversation, after you've been with him and only him for ten years, and the children who are definitely his are playing outside, and you've probably learned a lot about one another's character, and learned a lot about forgiving one another for other stuff. Or maybe never tell him at all, because it's totally irrelevant, because you would never do that to him/your relationship, because you have learned.
Learning is the key thing here. Just because you cheated on someone doesn't mean you're doomed to do so forevermore (and anyone who says "once a cheater, always a cheater" can shove it – we are all responsible for our own behavior, not slaves to our caveman brains). Don't waste your life carrying around guilt about something you did once and most likely won't repeat…because it sounds like you've learned (and learned and learned and learned, even by way of self-flagellation) from it.
Postscript: I also got married at 24 (yeah, why is that legal?), then promptly freaked the fuck out, i.e., GAAAAH WTF I HAVE TOO MUCH ELSE TO DO WITH MY LIFE GET ME OUTTA HERE. Shortly thereafter, I fell gut-bustingly in love with someone else, before I properly broke up with my then-husband. I semi-rationalize it by saying that Then-Husband and I had broken up, but I hadn't finished moving into my new place and we were still sharing a bed. It just doesn't feel like A Good Thing.
On top of everything else, falling in love like that only confirmed my suspicion that being married was wrong, wrong, wrong, because I didn't feel that way about Then-Husband. As things go, Then-Husband was a marvelous guy who treated me like a queen, but was simply the wrong guy for that time in my life, and also generally. I spent the rest of my twenties flogging myself with that guilt, terrified that my every relationship was wrong and some other Great Big Love was lurking around every corner, just waiting to grab hold of me and destroy everything all over again because I couldn't trust my own feelings about a person, I only deserved to be with the world's biggest assholes for punishment, I was a horrible cheater, and just the worst person ever.
Flash-forward yonks plus a whole new lifetime later: I have stopped flagellating myself, because I have finally learned that I am in control of my behavior, and am not the sum of every shitty thing I've ever done. I wouldn't say I've forgiven myself, because the guilt and terror still creep in, but it's the closest thing I can manage for now.
My partner is of the mind that he doesn't want to know about my past, and his past is none of my beeswax. It's a good policy. However, I am a morbidly curious nosebag, and accidentally found out some pretty awful things about his past from "friends" (read: truth-twisting, agenda-driven ballbags, but that's another story) which ended up not being entirely true (confirmed by actual friends who would actually know).
When I confronted him, knowing only the half-truths, and demanded to know when he was going to do all this awful stuff to me, he said that he would never repeat the mistakes he actually made because he learned how much he hurt the other person, and learned how to deal with his own destructive behavior which drove him to do these things in the first place.
People can change if they want to, and the easiest way is if they're willing to learn from their mistakes.
My partner's words have thus far proven true, and I trust he will remain true…because that's all I can do. I also trust that I will remain true to him, because that's what I intend to do. Which is the best I can do. And the best is the best we all can do, sweetness. <3
LW1, musicians and bartenders have not cornered the market on Fun/Smart/Interesting. They are not the only Fun/Smart/Interesting men in the world. As a matter of fact, some of these slackerish guys went that route because they're ACTUALLY incredibly boring people, and they figured that getting a shaggy haircut and learning a few guitar chords would make them Instantly Interesting People. Don't discount your fellow professional men so quickly! Some of them will be bland and boring, yes, but the key word is SOME. Others will be just as interesting as your drummer men – in fact, maybe some of them used to be drummers themselves but figured out one day that they needed a 9-to-5 in order to have roofs over their heads and eat something other than a can of baked beans every day! At least give them a chance. Because while these "dirtbag" types that you describe can be tempting on the exterior at least, some of them (again, the key word is SOME) are either super immature or super douchey or some combination of the two, and have no capacity to maintain an adult relationship. Keep them for one night stands, maybe, but don't expect much more from them. And if one day one of them proves that he CAN offer you more than a one night stand, well, then you get to be pleasantly surprised. In the meantime, though, talk to your fellow teachers a little more, and they may pleasantly surprise you as well!
Anyhow, truly top-notch Dudely advice today. Bravo!
@werewolfbarmitzvah That advice is SPOOKY SCARY good!
@werewolfbarmitzvah hahaha "incredibly boring people with shaggy haircuts and guitar chords" makes me think of jez from peep show so hard
LW#1, It seems like you're trying to prove to the world and yourself that you're not the type who goes for a "normal" guy. Sure, those boring, inhibited women can snag the 9-5ers and have committed relationships and, I dunno, probably sip tea in the Hamptons and play Boggle or some boring shit, but not you, heavens no, you're all about the wild and fresh and alive and nonstandard!
And all of that my have been true, but it's not anymore. I'm sorry to inform you that you're now in the market for happiness and — gasp — stability. But you're an expert at hunting for one kind of prey and not this new kind, so you're going to have to relearn how to date. It's like switching from being a carnivore to an omnivore (you don't have to go full vegan). All you've enjoyed thus far is meat, and sure it's delicious, and you suspect that vegetables are gross and boring. But it's not true! Vegetables are quite a bit different, but every bit as tasty in their own right AND they can complement the meat, too! You don't have to give that up entirely! You just need to make some room in your diet and adjust your palate for something new. Because it's better for you.
@Emby METAPHOR!
@tactfactory This seems appropriate.
@Emby
Exactly.
LW1, these aren't the dudes you're looking for.
@Emby I work in the music industry and myself am questionably tattooed (knuckles) and so I totally exoticize normal guys with normal jobs who are nonetheless clever and charming, because they are the the non-normative type vs. the people I'm usually around! But also in addition to rock shows and a lifetime of man-child hookups I go to the Hamptons every summer with some friends who have a house out there and we PLAY THE FUCK OUT OF SOME BOGGLE. (Also I love vegetables. Mostly I just wanted to talk about Boggle. Fuck I love Boggle.)
This is a good Dude.
LW1, omg, i was just you about 5 years ago! early 30s, somehow kept hooking up with / falling in love with / spending way too much time hanging around younger / less together dudes.
part of me loved playing in the kiddie pool … i loved the excitement of it, the being out all night, the wondering wtf was going on between us. so much drama! addictive!
but part of me was also kind of sad, because either the dalliances went nowhere, or the manchild would end up take advantage of my togetherness or try to pull me into a sugamama role (luckily i only went for it once before learning better!!)
anyhow, i had it set up in my head that i needed someone crazy, an artist who liked to party or something, because other dudes are boring and i am not. so, therefore, only questionable tattoos could ever do it for me.
but that is inaccurate! as a dude so eloquently said, the world is NOT divided up into boring people who have their shit together and exciting people who don't. as it turns out, there are all kinds of people including exciting programmers and boring ass alcoholic musicians and everything in between.
once i took some time off from the young hottie parade and sat down and really thought about what i wanted out of a relationship, and life, it occurred to me that loyalty and responsibility are actually kind of devastatingly sexy. and i ended up falling for a quietly hilarious, super hot nerd who does it for me in every possible way. and he does what he says he's going to do and it drives me crazy in the best possible way.
what do you really want? do you think the dudes you are hooking up with are capable of giving it to you? i'm not saying that fort-dwellers are useless … just that they may not be playing on the same field you're playing on, or may be ill-equipped to play it at your level.
@madge yup, this. I thought for sure i'd have to look forever for someone who wouldn't be intimidated by a girl with a strong personality and a decent-sized brain, who was also interesting, but respectful and responsible and kind. And, let's be honest, sometimes that person is hard to find and takes a while. But that grey area exists! cool interesting people with jobs, it happens!
Dear Second Letter Writer,
I want to feel bad for you because you seem to be in a bad place but I can't because I am too busy being annoyed by the fact that you seem to think you get to decide who is and isn't a slut, which is a shitty concept to begin with but your bratty blitheness kind of makes me hate you because I think you are fully aware you're being awful.
(I am so posty today! And alliterative!)
@smack Heeheee! I love that "posty" for you is 2 posts in one day
.
I think you should be posty more often, because even though I don't agree with your other post, both are funny and make me snicker.
2 posts does not make you posty! Don't start a posty jar!
Oh man, I remember when my friend used to complain about the difficulty of finding men who were interesting but didn't have cocaine habits. Eventually it worked out for her, but it didn't work out for me: I miss her war stories!
This is a good Dude. He proves it by the way he thoughtfully answered the First Letter Writer, who comes off as seriously insufferable, self-obsessed, and too-cool-for-school. I would have just responded, "Messaged received.You're the freest, coolest, most interesting woman around. No man can ever tame you. No woman measures up. It's a good thing that the first thing we learned about you is that you like sex, because makes you, truly, the Rarest of all Women. One day you'll find the perfect man, but I promise you won't have to grow up one inch, or compromise your ego the tiniest bit. It's all going to fall into your lap. These dudes you've been striking out with? They aren't put off by your towering, overwhelming ego! They're just children who aren't ready for a real woman."
That's what she wants to hear, right?
I guess it's hard to contain all that greatness, when your mind is always producing gems like "I can't seem to find a bro who wants a bite of my cool life sandwich".
"Don't be a metaphor for this generation", indeed.
@Really Nice@twitter I love that your username is Really Nice. Love.
LW1: i feel you sister. in the past i felt the same way especially since i live in portland or and it's underemployed hipster central. and i suspect that you, like me, are into slightly scruffier and liberal dudes so dating a banker or similar other professional is almost out of the question. although you'd be surprised with how many indie lawyers and accountants i've met out here.
it's hard but just like any dating, it's all about the individual. my boyfriend of almost a year is an aspiring novelist and works a slightly above minimum wage almost full-time job as a food delivery driver for a mental health facility. he has a philosophy degree from a good college, although not double ivy like me. he has ambition and reads more challenging books than i do. and he's cool about our lifestyle differences. we've talked about not regularly doing things he can't afford and he's ok with me occasionally paying for a nice dinner or his plane ticket so we can go on vacation. it's also obvious that growing up in a working class household he's not had the advantages i've had in that my parents paid for most of my education and supported me financially so I could study abroad and take nonpaid but career enhancing internships. i sometimes want to scream at him to go to grad school or spend more time writing but i've learned to reign it in for the sake of our relationship.
and then as the world turns, i am now unemployed so he's now the one who goes to work as i bum around on my laptop all day. but that's a whole other story. i still make more money than him through unemployment and i have more savings than he's ever had.
so the point is, if a dude you're interested in feels uncomfortable with your togetherness you should be able to have an honest conversation about it and if he can't do that, MOVE ON. you sound like an awesome lady so these dudes should be lucky to be with you.
also, we met on okcupid if you want to look there. i know it's hard to find somebody but you have to just tirelessly go out with a bunch of people and go from there. don't give up!
Double Ivy < Level 5 Laser Lotus
#savecommunity
@propermake: I was trying to come up with a good illustration of the dating down mindset and this was sort of perfect!
Double ivy! Make more money than him even unemployed! I come from a more successful family! And finally, "i sometimes want to scream at him to go to grad school or spend more time writing but i've learned to reign it in for the sake of our relationship.!!!"
perfection.
"Darling, I've been thinking. This steady employment of yours. I just can't stand it. It clashes with the drapes, and frankly, I'm sick of it. The handyman is coming over in an hour to hang up my numerous and impressive degrees, and I'm truly concerned that your pathetic scrap of vellum from Vassar is going to drag down the property value of my double-barreled Ivy Certificates of Intelligence. I have to go now – Mumsy and Pupsicle still haven't gotten the hang of direct deposit, so I'm sending Lazarus round to our numbers man with this month's check, and then I'm going to polish my degrees. From Ivy League schools. That's plural. Do you want me to look that up for you, or can I trust that you'll write down the definition four times before I get back from the salon? No, not a beauty parlor, a salon. Did you not read that biography of Mme de Pompadour I uploaded to your Kindle Fire? Oh, Christ, the handyman's here. Shut up and try not to embarrass me. Take your shirt off, there's a good boy."
@melis -double ivy threadjack- Are they thinking of cancelling Community?! Who are these monsters?!
@cat of the canals It got pulled from the midseason line-up and put on indefinite hiatus (so two new eps in December and then nothing until….?). They'll air the remaining 12 eps this season (eventually) and then likely cancel the series. THE INTERNET IS OUTRAGED.
@melis
MELIS
@cat of the canals Pulled it from the midseason lineup to make room for 30 Rock. Rumor has it it's because the writing staff at Community all went to state schools.
#nodoubleivies
@ilikemints Hullo! How may I help you?
@antarcticastartshere @melis In that case, fuck 30 Rock. I said it.
@cat of the canals You're safe here. 30 Rock had a good run.
ALSO COME ON DOUBLE IVIES WHAT THE HELL
I MEAN OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE A TROLL SENT BY THE NYT BUT STILL JESUS CHRIST
@melis "Go to grad school! Just get your parents to pay for it like mine did, GOD!"
@melis: can you imagine the potential NYT wedding announcement and subsequent scoring??
@melis sweet merciful lord, i'm scowling so hard my face hurts. it makes me want to crawl into the internet and smack her right in her delicate double ivy chops.
@brownfox @melis ok, i wasn't going to post this but i keep on getting emailed these comments and i've been wanting to do some smacking of my own.
those who care to read my response, originally intended for my friends and followers, can click here . if you're going to be judgemental, don't bother.
@melis I basically needed to articulate that feeling of oh my god every time I read something you wrote, because everything that you write is pure gold. Sort of like #ohspates, but sincere.
@brownfox SECONDED!
@propermake I tried clicking on your link but couldn't get through the Double Ivy firewall. I think it's because I only have a B.A.? Lemme publish a dissertation and try again.
ETA OH MY GOD you guys I'm having the worst time with my thesis committee; this might take a while.
ETA What do you mean you didn't get my annotated bibliography??? I EMAILED IT THIS MORNING
@propermake may I humbly suggest that, if you are unable to talk about your life without upsetting the commoners, which appears to be the case, that you save your enthralling, academically rigorous, double-ivy life insights for some more exclusive corner of the internet? 'cause i haven't been here long but hairpinners strike me as the kind of people to call a turd a turd.
@propermake OMG look at all of these plebians infesting the Interweb, feeling free to criticize publicly posted words AT WILL!!!
@MoonBat CAN YOU GUYS PLEASE BE QUIET I'M WORKING ON MY FOOTNOTES
JESUS
WHEN I POSTED THE AD FOR ROOMMATES ON CRAIGSLIST I THOUGHT I MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR THAT I NEEDED A 'QUIET ENVIRONMENT FOR STUDYING' BECAUSE 'I NEED A PHD IN LIKE FOUR DAYS SO I CAN GO TO A WEBSITE'
also MoonBat you left your dishes in the sink.
@propermake: I took the time to read your response, and then wrote a really TL;DR response that I had to scrap. Basically, it sounded like you respect your boyfriend's intellect in spite of his non-Ivy degree, non-top-tier-in-his-field degree, which sounds pretty snobby for many, many reasons. I don't think you mean it, if my opinion means anything to you, and this is why I'm trying to sincerely respond to you.
I know react to this sort of thing really strongly because I did my undergard at my medium, scrappy state school that no one has really heard of outside of Maryland (GO RETRIEVERS) and did my grad degree at Harvard Grad School of Design* because the courses available there were more appealing to me. After being at both institutions, I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that an Ivy League degree or a top-tier program necessarily equates with a higher intellectual status. Yes, it means that you have the appropriate academic flairs to get in, but it also just means that you, for whatever reason, had the means and bothered to apply. There are just so, so many reasons for not going to the top school in your field that it just seems awfully naive, dismissive, and quite frankly, rude to simply write off the intelligence of anyone without degrees from those sorts of programs.
Also, since I'm 2nd gen Vietnamese, I just want to say: while I can see where you're coming from re. "other parents could simply change their priorities and save up the money to send their kids to the best schools ever," it's just never that simple. It's not just about class, it's also about race and ethnicity and underfunded rural school systems and cities that are still reeling from deindustrialization and the loss of a middle class and argh.. sorry. I think I'm starting to go off the rails a bit.
This is still overly long. Whoops.
*Which, as I'm amused to find since the GSD thinks so highly of itself, no one outside of the design fields could really give a shit about. I only mention it because you reference architecture on your tumblr post.
@RK Fire i appreciate your thoughtful response. i totally agree with you about the school thing, especially in hindsight without the pressures of knowing where everyone in your high school is going. of the people i've met in grad school and work, it totally doesn't matter where you go to school– just what you make of it, especially in our field. we could also talk about ivy league grade inflation and extended "leave of absence" to boost their graduation rates but this is not the forum.
i was just taken aback by the snarky tone of some of the replies, especially when they're being sent to my email inbox. i think the most aggressive thing you should say on the internet is "imho, that is alll wrong."
like i said in my response i probably would have edited it out if i could but i thought the main content was relevant and optimistic. at the time of posting it seemed to be the only reply that affirmed her choice in men and not exclude those who didn't necessarily have the same level of income and stability. that said, i am 28 and not 33 and i know that those few years do make a difference in a lady's dating outlook. so maybe that is good advice for someone looking for a more serious relationship.
@propermake: I haven't been on the receiving end of snark here yet, but I have been in other places. It can be kind of hard not to take it personally but it seems like you get the reasons behind the snark. It seems like the best thing to do between Pinners is a combo of a mea culpa and joking back. It's only the internet! Of course, we all get that the internet is a big part of our lives..
@propermake: Shit, I am going to both support and nail you here.
First – listen, I snarked on you, and I didn't mean harm. I was responding to textually expressed sentiments, and of course, I realize your situation is bigger than the few sentences you wrote. I have a sharp, cutting tone, and I wasn't really aiming it towards you personally. I can be an outright asshole, but I am never aiming for the Mean Girls treatment, and I truly apologize if I put you in my crosshairs. I don't know you, or your situation, and all I was responding to was your comment.
THAT SAID – sweetheart, hope your hair blew back from the comments that went above your head. You missed a shit ton. You aren't a bad person or a shithead – you are just effing clueless. If you are on Hairpin, I am going to assume you have the capacity for introspection. Look, we aren't there, but a good bunch of us picked up on the tone. Whether it is accurate or not, there is value in evaluating that. Don't be that person who can't step back and see how they are perceived.
This is a mostly great group. If they give me shit, I am going to check myself. You need that perspective, too. Just check yourself, and allow the humility that you might not perceive all of the angles.
@karion i was not offended at all by your previous response; i thought it contained a reasonable level of snark, which is why i didn't @direct my second comment to you. but frankly, now i am. i'm "effing clueless?" is that really a label you feel comfortable ascribing to someone you admit to not knowing personally? i too have a sharp, cutting tone but i've been actively trying to change that my entire adult life.
Am i not allowed to show any form of school pride? Why is it more socially acceptable for middle-aged former frat boys to flaunt their painted beer bellies at a football game than for me to casually mention my alma maters? it was worth it to me to attend a school where i would have the opportunity to meet new friends and faculty from around the world and who were giving me a grant to do independent undergraduate research directly under someone whose work i had admired for years. especially since it was not a financial hardship for my family. just as it was worth it for my boyfriend to only apply to the state college near his hometown because he could live at home and not be a burden to his family, even though academically he could have gotten into a more prestigious school.
honestly, i am the least educated member of my extended family, who all have science phds and mds. my parents came to this country to pursue education and they expect me to follow suit. this is where i'm coming from. not a month goes by that my mom doesn't gently nag me to go to business school so i can (theoretically) get a more lucrative job in real estate development but my parents have been unconditional in their continued generosity so i could pursue my dream "never going to make as much money as my parents" design profession and for that i am thankful. i admit to being a little hesitant to tell my parents about dating my boyfriend because our backgrounds are more dissimilar than any of my exes (who went to school with me) but they love him because he's crazy smart and so supportive of me.
money is relative. when I was employed I earned approximately the same as a year of my educational costs. i worked an avg of 50-60 hours a week and i rightly felt underpaid. i thought that i was poor and told myself i was making sacrifices for the sake of my future. so imagine my surprise when i found out that my boyfriend and his roommate, both hardworking and college educated, could not find full-time jobs and earned less than $10000 a year doing unskilled labor. i may be sheltered and naive but we've all been fed false promises by a society that purports to value education and now we're suffering through this unyielding limbo.
i am mad as hell that i'm stuck at home sending out dozens of resumes every day because my career has been stalled in an industry that is not projected to recover until the end of this decade. i'm watching my savings drain away and it frightens me. especially because those savings have been slowly built up by living substantially under what is generally considered my means.* i occasionally allow for such extravagances as nice restaurant meals and travel because austerity is depressing and the closest of my old friends lives >600 miles away. but like many, i can barely sleep for worry about my future. what will i do if i don't find a job by the time unemployment runs out? i'm to old to ask my parents for help and too young to have gained enough experience to be self employed.
plus, what am i doing with my life?** ughhh.
i absolutely have learned from these reactions and i will pay more attention to how my future comments could be perceived. let's all just forget about it and try to make the best of these trying times.
ps. please excuse the length and footnotes, but academic is the only way i know to express myself. i'm the kind of person who reads books on the cultural revolution to understand my parents better. plus the unemployment insomnia/cabin fever has made my more verbose than usual.
*i spent 15% of my monthly income on rent in a charming but freezing houseshare vs the recommended 30. a big factor in my desire to stay in the region, and the only reason that i'm not crying every day, is the lower cost of living compared to other cities with a concentration of practices in my field. i don't need to own a car to get around and the food is cheap and tasty and sustainably focused. (now i sound like a shill for the city, but i'm really into food.) basically portland is awesome; if only the unemployment rate wasn't so high.
**i just started volunteering at planned parenthood as a way to get out of the house (plus for all the right reasons.) i'm so grateful to be getting sliding scale birth control from them now that i'm without health insurance. it's done so much good for my mood to know that i'm doing something useful and i've met a lot of awesome people. i especially like the golden girls type old ladies–hilarious! from what i understand, the urban centers (like mine) are pretty well staffed with volunteers but the suburban and rural(?) ones are in need. so i would really recommend it if you have the time.
@propermake Heyyyy fellow Portlander.
@propermake Okay, if your goal in those comments was to just show school pride, you missed it by a lot. Everything in both your initial comment and the follow up said "I'm better than him because I'm double Ivy, and you all should know that I'm condescending to even explain this to you." Come on, seriously, you can't use the term double Ivy (even in an ironic way, really) and expect that people aren't going to laugh at you. You are not the only one on The Hairpin with a degree from an excellent institution of learning. You don't have to explain to us what that's like. Think of the response as gentle ribbing to tone it down.
Questionably Tattooed Man-child…thank you for giving a name to the plague on my dating life. Though, it's hard to date people who have their lives together when you're still aimless and underemployed in your own life.
I really like this week's A Dude, even though he sort of looks like Herman Cain.
"President Obama supported the Slut Jar, correct? I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing before I say 'Yes, I agreed you are a slut' or 'No. I didn't agree.'"
@OlivettiValentine You forgot the interminable-delay ellipsis in there. "…………………………………….Slut Jar?"
@OlivettiValentine I just have…so many things twirling around in my head right now.
what a great LW1 answer.
@hairspin and LW2 as well!
Hold on here – I've made a lot of mistakes in my life but I've never cheated on anyone. In fact, when I met my now-wife, I was having sex with someone else. I told Mrs. Johnson at the time that I couldn't sleep with her until I broke it off with the fuck buddy.
I'm sorry but from a male perspective if you tell him that you cheated, when something is wrong, he will always suspect you are cheating on him.
Infidelity is *like that*. It isn't like forgetting to feed that cat or something.
@Jasons_Johnson What do you know about anything; you're barely 1/24th of Jason proper.
Interested parties may wish to note that it took me a few minutes to land on a fraction, as I tried to estimate how many penises it would take to make up a person. YRMV.
Also: "Baby, I'm so sorry – I forgot to feed your cat while you were out of town, because I was cheating on you. Now your cat is dead. Well. Not dead, strictly, but she's pretty hungry. You were gone for like four days. The litter box is pretty messy too. So I killed the cat. So that time before, when I told you she was dead, it was the truth. Also, I had four affairs. I was lying then too."
"One of the affairs was with the cat."
@Jasons_Johnson I hope that when you say "from a male perspective" you mean from your individual, entirely valid male perspective. I hope that you don't think that you and your johnson have universal dibs on The Male Perspective because you are one of the comparatively fewer male commenters here on the 'Pin…
@wee_ramekin I think The Male Perspective is his queercore band? And he's speaking for the other members (except for the bassist, who's poly).
@wee_ramekin – Thanks mini-kin. Because, look, the fact is – kind of a lot of people have cheated on each other. I've heard numbers of between 25% – 50% of married people have been unfaithful (like, sexy-wise, not even counting indiscretions of a 'lesser' but still inappropriate nature). My gut instinct, never having had to deal with it, is also "fuck that shit, you cheat and we're done." But damn…even 25% of people is 1 out of 4, you know? And I dislike a lot of people, but it just feels like…I dunno. If you just assume everyone who makes a mistake once will in the future, you're probably going to rule out a lot of good people.
Also, I do know dudes who have been willing to date ladies they knew cheated – generally because the relationship started while the lady was cheating. And vice-versa. Some of those relationships ended with "I should have fucking known, once a cheater, always a cheater." Others ended because of any one of a billion other reasons relationships end. Others are still going. But those people, of both genders, I know who are dating people who have gotten a little on the side at some point in the past don't go around assuming possible infidelity at every spot of turbulence, and other times people dating someone who has never cheated once believe there is infidelity even when there's little to no reason to think so.
All happy the same, all unhappy yadda yadda et cetera.
@leon.saintjean I also think there's a pretty big difference between "you cheat on me and we're done" (full disclosure: this is my stance on the matter) and "if you've ever, ever cheated in your entire life, I will never love you." If the cheating wasn't on you, it really depends on their reaction and self-awareness. Someone whose default response to things getting rough is "cheat until they dump me, then cheat some more" is going to get a much bigger dose of side-eye than someone who cheated once and has never really stopped feeling horrible about it or recognizes that it was a shitty, immature response to the situation and that they hurt their partner a lot more than they had to.
@leon.saintjean "mini-kin"!!! Heeeeeee(*squealsnort*)eeeee! Please never ever stop coming up with diminutized versions of my already diminutive username, because it is like the Best Present. Seriously. "mini-kin"! Hee!
Also, okay. [Some] cards on the table regarding the stats you quoted. I have been "the other woman", so I consider myself a person who has cheated, in a way. I am generally not down with people being "other women", and I felt/feel really bad about it. And yet, I had my reasons for doing what I did, and to this day, I think they are not entirely invalid. And having been in that horrid position gave me a lot of perspective on the whole cheating issue: it is really not as cut-and-dried as I had thought it was. My position on the issue tends to be in line with @wharrgarbl, since I have never been cheated on and don't know how I would deal with that, but I have to recognize that cheating is incredibly complicated.
Which I guess is what I didn't love about @Jason's Johnson's comment? I kinda hate it when people enter a discussion (adding insult to injury, in this case, is that apparently this is actually a penis talking to me) and declare that This Is How It Is.
@wee_ramekin I think part of the point he was trying to make is that cheating is a deliberate act, as opposed to juicebox things done by accident. Which is a good point. We do put a lot more moral weight on assholery engaged in with malice aforethought than on assholery engaged in through failure to just fucking think for one second.
But yes, there was a lot around that (likely) point that made it hard to take it very seriously, though I'm sure The Male Perspective has a wonderful setlist and their performances are very well-received.
@wharrgarbl I've been to a couple of The Male Perspective's concerts. They sound a lot like Nickelback, and are as surprisingly well-received.
@wee_ramekin Better than sounding like Buckcherry or Theory of a Dead Man (both of whom, coincidentally, really ought to take a closer look at their relationship choices), I suppose.
@wee_ramekin
Well to be fair to him, he definitely said "a male perspective" and not "the male perspective" so I got no beef.
@Diana hurbityburbitymurbitychurbity…okay. Not to make this a bigger issue than it should be, but. So, this is what he said (emphases mine):
"…from a male perspective if you tell him that you cheated, when something is wrong, he will always suspect you are cheating on him."
That sounds a little mansplainy to me.
If he had said:
""…from a male perspective if you tell me that you cheated, when something is wrong, I will always suspect you are cheating on me."
I would think that he was being less absolute in his statement, and just relating his individual beliefs.
It's obviously a really small detail, and one I may be reading incorrectly, but I don't know that I'm wrong in coming to the conclusion that someone named "Jason's Johnson" who decides to post on a pro-woman website with a picture that focuses on his penis is being an absolutist, "let me mansplain this" juicebox.
@leon.saintjean Having been on both sides of the cheating equation and coming now to the conclusion that I will not cheat on anyone ever ever not even at gunpoint, and will immediately dump anyone who cheats on me, my take on the subject is this;
I feel safer riding with a driver who has been in a car accident or two, and KNOWS how much it sucks and or hurts, and is therefore careful to avoid them, than someone who thinks it won't be a big deal really, it happens to everyone at some point. It's one of those things that seem less painful on paper than in reality, cheating. I trust harder the person who bears the scars and doesn't want any more of them.
@MoonBat I like your perspective on that. It's really true that people grow more and learn more from making mistakes than from having some kind of untested moral high ground.
If you open up a copy of "Questionably Tattooed Manchildren and the Women Who Love Them" I will feature prominently in the bibliography, so I write this from a place of love and understanding. The thing is, you have already figured out that you don't have to be all one thing or the other – you can have a stable, responsible lifestyle AND be a little wild and reckless in other areas of your life. Tattoos and reasonable credit card balances are not mutually exclusive. I think you need to realize that there are dudes out there like yourself – they aren't common but they are definitely out there – and you need to hold out until you find one of them. My boyfriend of the last year and a half has so many questionable tattoos and punk rock records to his name, but he's cleaner than I am with a credit card balance in the double digits and he treats me right. There are accountants out there with a secret passion for X-Ray Spex, and there are guitar players with maxed-out 401(k)s. I think you should start recruiting from places that aren't bars, restaurants, and tour buses. Look for hot tattooed dirtbags who aren't in their natural habitat of unlit bars with crushed peanut shells scattered on the floor: do they work for the library? see them at the gym? working with a nonprofit? A lot of those band dudes grow up to do audio-visual work at recording studios or places that throw large events. Basically, to put this in perspective, your problem is that you are picking up incompatible long-term partners at bars, the Internet, and your limited circle of existing friends. To paraphrase Drew Carey, there's a support group for that, and it's called "Everybody." There's a lid for every pot, and a bro for every cool life sandwich.
@Diana As a 40-year-old, responsible, bill-payin' nine-to-fiver… with seven tattoos and a closet full of ripped jeans and band t-shirts, your post delights me!
And, I don't know why, but "unlit bars with crushed peanut shells scattered on the floor" is terribly funny to me at the moment!
@Diana I married an ex-punk tech writer with a 401-k and some extremely questionable tatoos.
@Diana Yes! Know what works? Ok Cupid, with a search filter for just teachers, lawyers, doctors or whatever your heart desires. Then proceed to select the dirty hipster hotties out of THAT sample group. Easy!
LW#1 and the attendant answer just opened up a world of insight not just into who I'm dating, but who I'm spending my free time with in general. I need to be cultivating relationships with people who share my life interests and hopes and values more than I need to be cultivating relationships with people who are really fun to party with. I like both kinds of people, mind you. I just really need to be focusing on the former. Thanks for that!
LW#1, girl, you need to go read some Mindy Kaling and go listen to some TLC. For real. (Speaking as someone who has spent most of her 20s so far with dirty painters/musicians/potheads but now has someone who does dishes and never loses their wallet.)
I know what you mean, LW2. I was just talking with my bf of two years last night about how I was in this same place when he and I started dating. I was a slut (and I'm not apologizing for using that word, I loved my slut moniker) and a half at the time, and he wasn't really sure if I was willing to give up my ways for him.
And frankly, I can't blame him for having his doubts. I had HUGE walls up, ones that I had set in place years before that enabled all the casual sex I was having. And we hit a few snags when people still jokingly would call me a whore on facebook or whatever because I guess that's just not how he wants to see his snuggly wuggly.
Basically, I think what you need to do is lay off the booze for a while and let down a fucking wall and tell this new dude that you do, in fact, want to try being in a Real Adult relationship with him. Or fuck, at least tell him that you would like to try dating him exclusively for a while.
And stop with this idea that you're not take home to mom material. You're really selling yourself short with that bullshit. Plan a date with him during the day, like, a real "let's hang out and get to know each other" type of date and leave your Hello My Name is Slut nametag at home. And of course, if in fact his nervousness about your past turns out to be judgment about your character, ditch him immediately.
LW4…I recommend going over to The Awl and reading their article about Is Anybody Up? and its founder before you give anyone access to nude photos of yourself.
"This is exactly why no one should marry their first serious boyfriend/girlfriend unless they live on some weird island and can’t get off it."
Ummm… can anyone clarify that statement? Or am I about to make a massive mistake?
@acanthe LOST.
@acanthe FTR, my best friend married her first boyfriend (they met when they were 16) and they have the healthiest relationship of any couple I know, of any age. They're 37 now.
@acanthe my god thank you. my boyfriend and i are planning on getting married after graduation (i'm 21), and i can't keep hearing that it will ABSOLUTELY NEVER WORK OUT because i'm still too stupid or something without just attacking everyone. i get that a lot of people use their twenties to learn about themselves, but sometimes circumstances force you to do that shit earlier, and sometimes! your significant other is willing to work through it with you. fewer generalizations, please.
@tvc015 GIRL. Listen to me. I feel you! I'm 22. My fiance and I have been together since age 17. We got engaged on my 22nd birthday. We're getting married when he's 26 and I'm 24. He was my first boyfriend and I was his first girlfriend.
Everything you said rings true for me! I hate when people are like, "GOD why do dumb idiots get married when they're so young?!?" because for me and my fiance, and for you and your boyfriend, it works out and it's awesome. You're NOT about to make a massive mistake! Don't let people who make sweeping generalizations because they were stupid in their twenties make you feel bad.
@acanthe Not always? I have a good friend who married her first boyfriend and they still seem pretty into each other 15 years later. Additionally I married my second boyfriend at 21 and not to humblebrag (I'm totally humblebragging, please forgive me. I can't help myself. It's a condition.) but I'm so happy I disgust myself sometimes. It's true when they say you change a lot in your 20's though. I'm not the same person I was 8 years ago, and I might have been very lucky that the dude and I both happened to change in the same ways. So, maybe it's not so much NEVER DO IT, as BE SUPER CAREFUL BECAUSE THE ODDS ARE AGAINST YOU.
@acanthe: Only you know deep down whether or not it's a mistake. I stayed with my first serious boyfriend through most of college, and during the last two years (after trying to break up with him once) I started imagining scenarios where I would somehow be free of him and have fun single adventures. That was not a good place to be in, and I did break it off with him permanently. The ex-boyfriend tried to say tell me that having these thoughts/fantasies of breaking up was normal, and that he was sure that other people had it all the time. That sounds healthy, right?
And then I started dating my husband! We've been together through our twenties (which aren't over yet). Some people could definitely say that maybe I should've dated around more to make sure I knew what I liked or that maybe there is someone else out there who is significantly better than me but honestly, I'm really happy too. That isn't to say that we haven't had our low points and that there isn't a lot of upheaval in your twenties, but with the appropriately compatible person, you can navigate them and change and grow together pretty well.
Of course, I'm a newlywed, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.. even after seven years of being together.
@acanthe my brother met his wife at the age of 16, started dating her when he was 18, and married her when he was 28. They are awesome individuals and awesome together. It can work out just fine.
@acanthe My uncle married his wife when he was 19 and she was 21. 27 years and three kids later, they are the happiest, most stable, most amazing married couple I know.
@ingrid.tuesday "I'm not the same person I was 8 years ago, and I might have been very lucky that the dude and I both happened to change in the same ways."
THIS. Eight years of dating (we were teenagers when we got started, gyah), plenty of rough patches, but happier than ever now and gleefully plotting engagement/wedding/marriage nonsense. Hoping we don't just spontaneously combust due to the vast odds against us.
@acanthe I think that it can work out but you have to be able to accommodate change. I'm still young and while not wildly into weddings I think I want to be with my boyfriend for the rest of my life. That said, I have begun to see that we are growing and changing in some ways, and this will prob. continue through our twenties and beyond. We still love each other and are best friends. My point is, if you get married expecting that you and your boyfriend will stay in a kind of time-capsule of the way you are now, that might be a bad expectation. You can just make a pretty good estimate that whatever happens in the future, you like and love each other enough to make any differences between you ok. Early on I had this feeling of extreme one-ness which was lovely – and I still get it sometimes – but it was an important step to realise that he's not some kind of extension of me. I don't know if this is a patronising or helpful thing to say, but I know it was a bit of a leap for me after 3 years of near-perfect bliss.
@acanthe I just wanted to counter the view that change = bad. Sometimes people grow in slightly different ways. As long as you still like, love and respect each other, it's fine. You don't have to be exactly the same. Relationships can keep surprising you and force you to grow. Mostly, it should be fun.
@ingrid.tuesday i feel like that about my relationship too. i'm becoming more vigilant about our loviness and makeout in public. but yay for love!
@bonnbee we're just all crazy jealous that you found someone so early. if only i could have bypassed all this dating shit in my 20s.
although if i had married my first boyfriend things would have turned out VERY badly. why do nice guys turn into juiceboxes?
Just butting in on this – I also married my first real boyfriend, aged (just turned) 23. Been together over 12 years now and loving every day of it. On the other hand, it is definitely not for everyone. You need to really, really know yourself and the other person. And be prepared to grow together.
@acanthe I know a couple who got pregnant at 20. Super cool chick. Her and her man decided to have that kid, they are now both 28, married, happy, and have four gorgeous children. She stays home, he has a great career, and they have this really good life that they are happy with. For them, that was the right choice. I know other couples who got married after school more out of a "Loving this person is the one thing I feel sure of" at a very uncertain time in any young person's life. So really, only you can know what's right for you and what your truth is. But if there's even a tiny little bit of doubt, there is good news – there is no time limit on relationships or engagements. There is seriously no rush, you can be engaged for a good long time if you want. I really wish some of my friends in the latter camp had not rushed to plan their weddings once engaged.
Also seriously? Live together for a good long while before getting all contractual about it. It never hurts to take your time, promise.
@RK Fire I also feel like, when you start early, sometimes you have a good run and then end up parting ways, but that doesn't make it a mistake, necessarily. Whereas I know people who got married in their 30s, and are now in their 40s and 50s and either waiting it out until the kids leave home, or are just too tired to leave. Basically, relationships are hard, some percentage of them will end, but that doesn't mean you should never have them, or never commit to someone who [fill in descriptor here].
This is the most genius advice I've ever seen – I might have to get it embroidered on something:
And since we’re not like our grandparents, who seemed happy to marry the first nice person they met, nor are we like our parents who may have felt obligated to marry the first nice person they met, we’re all going to have to approach this dating business with a little more diligence and rigor than a Google search. You seem to take your professional and home life seriously, so why not your love life? Don’t be a metaphor for this generation.
I <3 this A Dude.
LW1,
If you do decide to pursue dating professionals that are "hipsters on the weekend" as others have suggested, then I highly recommend you start writing like the educated adult that you are. I know writing things like "probs" and disregarding even basic grammar rules (and I'm no grammar nazi, believe me) is cool amongst your current crowd, but for the rest of the working world it is a HUGE TURN OFF. It makes you sound like an idiot. I also found it very interesting that after your second paragraph you reverted to writing like a normal person. Perhaps you are trying to hard to be something you are not?
With that said, best of luck. There is probably a guy out there who used to play drums in college and has a few demo tapes lying around, but at some point realized that putting all of his chips in the rockstar basket was a poor choice.
@Captain DuClark I think that criticism is extremely unfair. This letter writer is obviously a member of the Hairpin community, and there is a definite lingo we use 'round these parts that encompasses words like "probs" and disregards basic grammar rules (I assume you're referring to "…there is a crazy hamster in my brain who will just. not. get. off. the. wheel.").
The fact that we speak in a less formal parlance than you are used to on this site is probably because most of us feel as though we're among friends. I really doubt that this letter writer sends professional correspondence in this style; she doesn't need your exhortation to write like "an educated adult". Plus, I think you'd have a really hard time pointing to an uneducated Pinner: even those of us who have not attended double Ivies (or any college at all) are generally smarter, more inquiring and wittier than many commenters I've encountered on other sites.
The 'Pin community also prides itself on being compassionate. This writer is asking for advice. I think it's out of line to criticize her friends and tell her to grow up and start communicating in a way that you find more professional, when she's clearly asking this advice in the bubbly tone that she would ask it of friends. Be compassionate; you might find yourself writing in to A Dude/Lady/Queer Chick someday!
@Captain DuClark It's called code-switching. Have you been on the Internet before? We're not at work here (Edith et al. excepted).
@wee_ramekin
You're right. My comment was pretty harsh. I apologize to LW1 and to the Hairpin commentariat.
It was the use of "probs" that really annoyed me. I used to hang out with some hipsters and they absolutely loved to write things like, probs, totes, yays, and would end every other sentence with "!!!!". That's right, four exclamation points. Why???? I've never noticed much of that on this site (@ennaenirehtac), but maybe I'm overlooking it.
I guess my horribly made point was: don't dumb down your prose to sound cool. Also, don't use "probs".
@Captain DuClark I love to text probs, totes, yay, and !!!! to my close friends. I'm very well-educated, but in my experience, dumbing down my texts helps me take myself less seriously in my day-to-day life. There's nothing wrong with being silly with your close friends. If I knew someone was thinking "ugh shut up you hipster" when I was just trying to keep it friendly/casual, it would really hurt my feelings.
Dear @Captain DuClark:
For the love of god. You are on the wrong. site. if you have a problem with informal internet-writing. It's all over the place here- in the comments in particular, and from the editors in posts. (Have you READ Jolie Kerr's wonderful style of writing? It's a masterwork of informal English.) If you're going to lecture LW2, you'd better be prepared to lecture the rest of us, since we're pretty much speaking her language.
Code-switching, as noted above, is in fact an extremely complicated linguistic habit. Knowing when and with whom to use different kinds of language is a sign of language mastery and sophistication, not stupidity or immaturity.
Love,
A Freshman Composition Professor
@Captain DuClark As an oldie, I sometimes get a little irritated with that writing style too. But other times I enjoy using it, so I'm not about to get judgmental. Also, I agree with wee_ramekin that no matter what someone's writing style, her problems are still real and she deserves our respect.
In other words, I will probs not agree with every mannerism you use, but I will defend to the death your write to use it!!!!
@Captain DuClark Man, there have been things (defining "slut," double ivy) on this thread that are making me irritable, but the buck stops at linguistic peeving (click if you love article after article of crazy scary academics being pissed). EMBRACE LANGUAGE OMG.
Imagine all the people, getting over their Correct Spelling and Grammar Things that they haaaave to always and forever bring up, and instead being intrigued and dazzled by the ways in which humans use language (written, spoken, texted)! Hoo-hoooo, oohooh ooooh. Maybe someday you'll join us?
the arguments here about "you're not a slut, LW2, XYZ thing is what makes you a slut" are giving me the heebie jeebies. i know everyone means well and is saying lots of good and encouraging things to LW2, but i feel the need to say this:
there is no such thing as a "real slut." "slut" is a term generated out of the patriarchy to oppress women for sexual expression. if you have sex with a lot of people, you might be called a slut. if you don't respect yourself for the sex you have, you might be called a slut. if you sleep with a bunch of people concurrently, you might be called a slut. if you're a single mother who still has sex, you might be called a slut, or a teen mother, or polyamorous, or etc. etc. etc.
but none of those examples are the "real" definition of "slut," because "slut" is – again – a tool for oppression, not a thing a woman can actually be. some of those scenarios – including, maybe, LW2's situation – may be problematic, or detrimental to quality of life, or may require intervention from one's self, one's therapist, one's partner, or one's friends – but there are no sluts. i refuse to take it back. it's not real. it's an oppressive idea. let's stop quibbling over its meaning and reject it.
@oldtobegin Agreed 100%. On the other hand if we retire the word, I'm not sure how else I'm going to describe my "slutty cupcake" dress.
@oeditrix i find "hussy" works great! also, please post pictures of that dress.