Kids: Worth It? and Game Day Etiquette
I just read the advice column where one of the married dudes wrote some really sweet stuff about his kids. This is something the boyfriend and I have been talking a lot about and I need a third party to give me some advice.
My boyfriend and I have been together for five years. We're probs gonna get engaged in another two, once I'm all done with law school and he gets his career on track. The subject of kids has been coming up lately in our conversations, which I think is not a bad thing because if you want to marry someone you damn well better make sure you're on the same page about important stuff like popping out babies.
But here's the thing: I'm not sure if I want them and he does. Don't get me wrong: I love kids. I work with kids at my job. I love babysitting and hanging out with kids. But every time I'm in Target or something and hear some little shit screaming, "MOOOM MOOOM MOOOM WAAAH" I think to myself, "No. Way. Will I ever have children."
So tell me, married dude with kids, is the obnoxious, exhausting part of being a parent worth it? Please don't just tell me "Yes, because my kids are so cute!" The kids I babysit are cute as hell, and I still sometimes want to run to the hospital and get a hysterectomy on the spot because they're so annoying. Everyone I talk to says, "I never knew what love was until I had a kid," etc. Is this schmaltzy crap true? Will the late night feedings/never sleeping/wiping up poop/dealing with screaming children/dealing with snotty teenagers be worth the magical fairy dust feeling of parenting?
Guide me, wise married dude. Because this is something I definitely want to think about, even though it's not happening any time soon. I don't want to go further in my relationship, avoiding the topic, and then in 10 years my husband's like, "Let's have a kid!" and I'm like, "About that… no," because that won't be a fun conversation.
My wife and I made three kids in two years. Yes, my balls are amazingly talented. While we (yes, we) were pregnant with the twins, I was freaking out about the same stuff. What do I do when such and such happens? When will I sleep? How will I get out of the house in the morning? When will I ever be able to jack off without fear of scarring a child if they catch me? When will I see my friends? WHAT ABOUT WHEN ALL THREE ARE CRYING?
The answer to all of those questions is easily answered with a "fuck it, no kids," but to be completely honest, all of the schmaltzy crap you hear about is completely true and weighs a shitton more than all of those worries put together. You can prepare all you want, read all the books you want, worry all you want, save all the money you want… No preparation can get you ready for the reality of having one, two, or three kids, but you won't need any of it. You just do it. The things you're worried about now means absolutely nothing compared to the things you won't even imagine yourself caring about until that baby saunters out of your dandy vag.
Thankfully, you know people who have kids. Everyone knows people who have kids. When it's awesome, they understand and high-five you, and you can look down your nose at them for having asshole kids. When it's awful, they understand. And believe me, the kids you hear in Target, those are asshole kids belonging to assholes. Your kids, while sounding the exact same, are awesome assholes. Your only job as a parent besides the obvious, is to make sure your kids aren't always assholes. Food, poop, clothes, all that stuff is common sense. Everything else is trial and error.
And regarding what you do when all three kids are crying? One of my best friends has four kids, including twins, and he said it best: "Don't think about the times when all of them are crying at once. Imagine all of them laughing at once."
Sold. Go have sex. A lot. Say my name out loud during, even.
I have a question, well a couple of questions, about Penis Problems.
I have recently encountered two (two!!!) young, attractive, healthy, virile looking men with the same/similar serious and chronic penis problems — namely, their peeps CANNOT get hard. Like at all. Not without the aid of pharmaceuticals (and even then … kinda … not so much :/). I realize that occasional impotence is pretty normal among young men, what with whiskey/coke dick, exhaustion, performance anxiety, etc., but in both cases this was something else entirely. When fooling around, these dudes seem really aroused and ready to go (and were maybe even more sexually aggressive than average), but none of this registers on their peeps. Not even a little bit.
The most recent of these two young men told me, in the course of disrobing, he has had this a problem "since childhood," and being kinda shocked/not wanting to pry/feeling like it wasn't really any of my business, I didn't ask any more questions at the time. But I have questions!! And I am hoping that you, Dude, can help — not to diagnose!! But to put this in context for me?? Anecdotally speaking, is this, young healthy seeming men who cannot achieve/maintain an erection, a common thing?? Or am I a magnet for sexual dysfunction?
And in any case, any advice on how a lady should handle this kind of news from someone she is attempting to casually sleep with? I recognize that it would not be fun, as a young man, to have this conversation with anyone, and I would like to be supportive and compassionate without being weird or condescending.
And also, what do I do?? My encounters with both of these were actually pretty satisfying and enjoyable, because, at least in part, they were very attuned to my needs/desires, which was great, but also weird and lopsided feeling. Cause really I want to reciprocate! I get (a lot of!!) enjoyment out of returning favors, but in these situations, I am not sure how (/if) I can do that without making a big deal out of the issue.
I work in a pharmacy where I dispense a LOT of erectile dysfunction injections. Yes, guys stab their dicks before gettin' in there. Most who do injections instead of pills do so because either pills don't work, they'd kill them outright, or they're afraid of the pills.
There are a large number of reasons why that shit happens, you even mentioned a few. But a few you might not imagine as being true are cigarette smoking, nerve damage, hormone imbalance, environmental toxins, childhood trauma, and for every one reason why there are another dozen undiscovered reasons for limp dick.
As much as the media, and guys you know, might say that shit ain't common for younger duders, nowadays it's more likely part physical and part psychological, but it's more common than uncommon. Fortunately, there are other triggers for his own sexual release, it's just they aren't always an option when he hasn't had an enema and you don't have a strap on in your purse. Thankfully, it isn't your issue to automatically know what you should do.
Because I am of the male species, and my penis is pretty much the only thing I connect with multiple times a day, I would say you have to keep in the moment no matter what the guy's dick is doing. If he's going at you with the awesome, give it back. If he can't get hard, stay in character and put the dude to work on you. Yes, at the moment you realize he won't be shafting you with the manpole, you have to scramble to get creative, but be selfish and ask, while romantically out of breath, what you can do for him.
It's his mussel that isn't in the moment along with you, your clamcake, and him. Put it back on him, ever so slightly of course, and find out what you can do to please him while he's down tongue stabbing the black calypso triangle. I read that last one in a romance novel while in a doctor's office with my wife while she was pregnant, fuck off.
Guys who suffer from erectile dysfunction have an issue, but communication, and a pinky up the asshole, might take the adventure past the uncomfortable and move it more towards the mutually erotic.
My boyfriend/best friend/love of my life is going to be a Navy SEAL. We want to get married, but he may be leaving soon for Basic Underwater Demolition School, like in about five or six months. If we are married, the Navy pays for me to move there with him and live in housing. If we aren't, I may have to wait here for two years before we can have time to get hitched. How on earth do I bring up to my amazing and devoted boyfriend that we need to figure out a timeline, when he is dealing with not only the constant physical and mental stress of pre-training, but also the unpredictability of his schedule in the next half-year? It's not that I want to force him into marriage NOW, it's just that I honestly and sincerely want to be there in California with him to help take care of him, make him food, and push him through the emotional stress of the training program. I don't want to be left behind, because I feel like my role could be very valuable for him. But lately he is so burnt out from all of his training that when I actually do get to see him, I don't want to bother him with "big questions." Meanwhile, I am stressing myself out wondering what he is thinking and what is going to happen to us. Blah. This is difficult.
No doubt, that sucks. The hardest part, in my opinion, is finding the right dude. If he's the right dude, no amount of time apart or waiting patiently will matter once the future actually fulfills itself. I know a few guys waiting through medical school for their future-wife to be available to get married. The only comfort in those situations, and probably in yours, is that there are millions of people out there doing the same exact thing you're doing. You aren't the only person to experience this, believe it or not. What's not shitty about that? You have a hundred shoulders to cry, yell, whine, or puke on.
One thing I've learned about hardcore shitty situations is that people who have gone through them actually WANT to help the people going through them currently.
I say offer to move with him unmarried or married. Cook, clean, do jumping jacks naked for the guy. But you better damn sure flat out say "I'm going to go with you and support you, and all you have to do is marry me, impregnate me, and then make awesome pancakes." By approaching the subject candidly and seriously, immediately, you take all of the guessing out of the situation. I wouldn't go so far as having a poster board with what-if scenarios written out, but I'd for sure mention possible job ideas for you in San Diego. By making plans as if you're part of the plan, you demonstrate that you can take care of yourself with or without him, but you choose with him.
And mention that you will let him punt a dog off the bridge from SD into Coronado. Every guy wants to do that.
My fiancee and I have had a hell of a time planning our "family holiday visitation" schedules over the last couple of years that we've been together. We managed to hit up all of our families over this past summer, which was a great success, but the Holidays are looming and planning time with all four households (as we are both children of divorce) has been somewhat of a logistical nightmare. We've finally worked out our schedule, and though it's difficult for me, we've agreed to visit my dad's side of the family for Thanksgiving.
So here's the rub: The other day, my saintly fiancee mentioned how much he was looking forward to watching so much football over the Thanksgiving holidays. I nodded, knowing how therapeutic time off combined with football is for him, and then proceeded to inquire exactly how much football he would be watching over the Thanksgiving break. Now here's another useful piece of information to know about my fiancee — he's from metro Detroit and he went to the University of Michigan. So, clearly this Thanksgiving weekend will be a big one for him. Not only will the Lions play on Thanksgiving day, as is tradition, that Saturday is the UM v. Ohio State. In principle, as he has educated me in the mores of football fandom, I know that he has to watch these games. He has tried to explain, also, that the games are noon games, so he won't be sitting in front of the tube in the evenings. But in practice, with these games taking up nearly seven hours (and possibly more) of the limited time we will get to spend with my family, I am concerned that it won't look very good to my family. My family's a fairly accepting bunch, but they're also pretty active, and not always good at incorporating an individual's plans into their considerations of the family's schedule. So when my family is eager to sit down to the Thanksgiving spread in the middle of the Lions game, or plan an outdoors-y activity during the Michigan game, I'm not really sure how it'll look when my fiancee begs off and chooses to sit in front of the TV alone.
Should I be offended? Should I ask him to give up one of the games? Is wanting to ask him blasphemous to the church of (pro and college) football? And am I being a girly-disinterested-sports stereotype or should I feel secure in asking him to abandon his fan post in front of the couch? And should I express concern over the impression he may make on my family, who he likely will not see again for another seven to eight months.
This is easy. Your guy needs a DVR and a Slingbox for traveling without missing the games. More importantly, he needs to stop acting like the games matter more than your family muttering about him being a meathead for the next 15 years of your married life.
Dude has elementary grade issues. He wants to grunt every year at the same time? Grow up. I wanted to watch American Idol the night my wife almost gave birth on my floor. Did I get mad at her? No, I watched it via webstream once she passed out from giving birth while holding my new born son. People who expect the world to revolve around them for insanely stupid reasons are shiteaters.
Previously: Bedroom Routines, Presents, and Work "Friends."
A Married Dude is a married dude who doesn't claim to know everything about marriage. Do you have any questions for A Married Dude?
Illustration by Esther C. Werdiger
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I don't want to tell you how to live your life, but kids definitely have their uses.
@deepomega My sister's baby was 1 month old on Halloween, and she dressed him up like the spawn of Satan. He had little creepy bat wings and horns and black flames on his jammies. It was actually slightly disturbing on a newborn, so I give her a lot of credit for that.
@deepomega I think that lying is exactly why my dad was involved in the creation of my brother and me. He once told me when I was around 6 while he was giving me a bath that Santa watches us through the air vents.
@figwiggin Haha! My dad told us that the "Watch for Falling Rock" signs on roads in the mountains were about a murderous escaped Indian chief named Falling Rock, and that when you saw him, you contacted the parks dept. and they put up a sign at the location of the sighting. He told us this while we were camping in those self same mountains.
@Gnatalby I had a friend in college whose dad told her the same exact thing. she believed it until she was about 18.
the santa-in-the-air-vents thing is true.
@punkahontas PICS or GTFO
@deepomega My father told of the "Falling Rock" chief as well. Funny.
@Brendan Doherty@facebook
@meliz AND JUST WHO THE HELL ARE YOU
@figwiggin I'm so fucking late to this party, but my dad and uncle told us that Percy Sledge was the man with most soul because he had no arms or legs and they strapped him to a stool to sing, where he would fall off sometimes because of all that soul. When I was 23 I saw a pic of him in a magazine and I was like "this can't be Percy Sledge. He doesn't have arms or legs." to my bf and obviously the wool was pulled painfully from my eyes as I wondered what other bullshit I've been fed all my life.
@melis My reaction when I saw that: ooooh… kay… either she's FUCKING with us at a level beyond anything we have nightmared about, or shit is going DOWN.
@Gnatalby My dad told us that, too! I think maybe it was an old boyscout thing. Is your dad an old boyscout?
stabbing the black calypso triangle.
"Dear, when you're done murdering those three dancers we invited over, can you go down on me? Please?"
Maybe these guys can't get hard because you keep calling their genitals "peeps." Just a thought, LW#2.
@chevyvan I had the same thought. Maybe referring to a dude's penis as a squishy marshmallow creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Ahhh I kept imagining a hot dude with a flaccid, poofy pink sugar bunny where his dick should be.
The other day I heard a guy at the gym refer to it as his "ding-ding" and I nearly fell off my treadmill.
@chevyvan My reading was rendered all the stranger as that's what our mom called our vaginas when we were little.
@emilylouise Did he look like this?
@queenofbithynia One of the most uncomfortable conversations I've ever had in my life happened recently at a local restaurant. A relatively charming little girl came up to a few friends and self occupying a corner table and the following exchange took place (as accurately as I can recall):
Little Girl: I think you have my granma's magazine. She left it here on this table.
Self: Oh – I'm sorry. We're not reading it. You can have it back.
LG (airily): It's okay, you can have it. Is your sandwich good? You still have half a sandwich.
Self: I see.
LG (pointing to an open page): I like this picture. Do you like this picture? I'm really good at drawing.
Self: Ah. I think your grandmother is looking for you, maybe.
At this point I had shifted into an entirely different chair because said child was drifting dangerously close to my lap. I'm not for sitting; I'm a human being.
@melis #tinytiny…wait,actually,howwouldyoumanagethat?
#like,cut'emofffirst,orwhat?
#becauseyoucouldn'tclosethemicrowavedooriftheywerestillattached,right?
@wallsdonotfall Yes! Well, kind of. More like this because after I heard about his ding-ding, I just couldn't resist his allure. btw I'm the girl on the left.
@Cawendaw Have you read Infinite Jest, pray tell? Different appendage, similar concept.
@melis Why on earth have my comments been migrating lately? All apologies, Cawendaw.
Ran down here to say: I don't know how I feel about this whole "we" being pregnant thing. Support of a loving partner, sure, blah blah blah, but the unpregnant partner's perineum isn't being snipped so a baby can fit out of it, so.
@liznieve and this is to say I really don't know what I think about the term, but it troubles me.
@liznieve totally agree. i understand wanting to show solidarity or whatever, but A Dude, you are not pregnant and never have been.
@liznieve A guy friend of mine always said "we" in relation to his wife's pregnancies (his wife was all for him saying it, btw). I'm okay with people saying it or not saying it, whatever floats their boat, but I think the reason why people say it is to encourage a more unified mentality about the whole thing, ya know? Like, reinforcing the whole "we're in this shit TOGETHER" mindset.
@liznieve I know how I feel about it, and it isn't good. There is no "we" in prgnancy. "We" are having a child, but "we" are not pregnant.
@liznieve I'd rather any guy say "We are pregnant", than a coworker who says "My wife is pregnant" as his hand slides down my back in a bar. Team work makes the dream work.
@NatashaMcG Yes, precisely this distinction. Solidarity, I think, is in saying "my wife is pregnant with our child," not claiming credit for something you cannot physically do yourself.
@liznieve Absolutely. Do /your/ hormones go nuts, does your body rebel; do you have to spend hours painfully pushing another being down your vagina? No, Dude. That will not happen. Maybe one day you'll have to pass a kidney stone, but that's as close as you'll get.
@NatashaMcG: Eggzactly. "We" are not pregnant. However "we are expecting" is fine with me, if that helps, dads.
@D.@twitter My friend's husband said "we are pregnant" once, when her hormones were all wacky. She nipped that in the bud with a, "If we are pregnant then you are going to push this little fucker out of your ass and I'm just going to watch."
@liznieve Oh dear. I have this problem. My mom has breast cancer and I have been with her every step of the way from diagnosis on. I go to all her appointments with her, all her tests, and all her chemo sessions. I CANNOT STOP saying "we" as in "when we found out" and "we were hoping that" and less appropriate we's. I annoy myself so much EVERY TIME I do it. Luckily my mom is more understanding and just asked me to stop doing it in front of the doctor because it makes me look insane then I'll be that "poor woman's crazy bitch daughter who thinks she has cancer". Why can't I stoooooopppppp?
@liznieve As a currently pregnant lady I would like to add that if my SO claims "we" are pregnant he can also proceed to give up alcohol, coffee and smoke breaks. and skinny jeans (OK, maybe that's just me). He wisely would never say that, although I wouldn't mind a little reciprocal giving-up-of-stuff.
@everyone Ohh man I have a lot of pregnant friends right now, and they are SO into the whole "we're pregnant" thing! Because he has to be a part of it…? I have to keep my mouth shut to stop me from saying hell to the NO he is not pregnant.
@liznieve
Agreed. I have only limited tolerance for torturing language to make a point.
@liznieve Oh man, thank you. There is no "we" in pregnant, Dude and Dudes.
@thebestjasmine I hate to undermine this, because it grates on my soul when I hear a dude say "we're pregnant!!!!", but: couvade.
@liznieve Yes yes, a million times yes! I HATE when men say "we are pregnant!" Unless you're a seahorse, you are NOT pregnant, sir. If you are a seahorse, congratulations on learning English, dude!
I also hate it when men call their wife "mother."
@The Kendragon Oh god, that weirds me out so MUCH.
@DrFeelGood I feel like there is a lot of crossover between the people I know who say 'we are pregnant' and the people who say things like 'we really feel that…' and other borg-mind couple things that creep me out. It's not an exact overlap, but there is a correlation, is all I'm saying.
@heyladies one of my friend's partners did give up the things she couldn't have while she was pregnant. Sort of. I know this because a couple of times we met up for furtive coffee breaks and he'd beg me not to tell said friend. Hmm, now I type that that sounds like an unhealthy dynamic, which may be why she is no longer a friend.
@The Kendragon Only really old hicks like my grandfather or the preacher from Kill Bill call their wives "Mother."
jesus the screetching. i just think dude was trying to show some solidarity with his beloved. yes, the burden is all the woman's. yes, the man has no role save watching the 40 week horror unfold. men truly are pointless during this time.
yes, pushing a bowling ball out of your ass would hurt as asses aren't made for that. and i can't help but find it amusing that some of the same women who are so disdainful of the whole notion of children and child-bearing are the loudest to point these things out.
@brad I'm not disdainful of them in the least, and it seems neither are many of the folks in this thread. Many even seem to have some of their own. I understand the need to feel solidarity with your loved one, but the solution is not to co-opt for yourself a wonderful, magical thing that women, and only women, can do. We're proud of our ability to do this, and take much pride in it.
Letter-writer #1, A Dude, for all his infinite wisdom, cannot tell you whether or not you want kids. There are plenty of people who've had kids and regretted it; my aunt, for example. Her kids are grown-ups now and she *still* doesn't like them, and wishes she hadn't had them. And they're not criminals or anything. Just ordinary people.
It can happen.
No one else can make that decision for you. You're just going to have to figure it out yourself.
@special_boots Damn, your aunt is harsh.
@klaus That was way harsh Tai.
@klaus My aunt is harsh. The best part was how I found out about her feelings: by discovering, at age 14, an email exchange between my mother and her brother (I wasn't snooping!! She had PRINTED IT OUT and left it lying around!!) about how my mom didn't even love me, let alone like me. My uncle responded by talking about how his wife felt the same way about her own kids (not his kids — they married later), and discussing her feelings/history in some detail.
NB to this: I'm certain my mom does love me; I was just awful at 14, and she was no doubt pissed. Still, it was a somewhat scarring experience all 'round.
@special_boots Ahhhh that is awful! I was adopted by my grandparents and tried to reach out to my biological mom when I was around 18 years old… she straight up told me that she had no interest in getting to know me, so I can relate to that pain.
@special_boots Agreed! There is intimidated by the huge undertaking and there is the deep feeling that is not what you want to do. Only the individual can say which one that is. Getting that wrong can hurt a lot of people. LW#1- Good for you for thinking this through.
@special_boots well said that aunt! Nevernevernever ask a dude about having kids because they will be so positive about it all. Their wives, less so. Of all my girlfriends with kids, way more than 50% really strongly regret having them.
They also strongly love their kids, the two feelings are not exclusive.
I'd have said, don't try to conceive until you get 'baby rabies' when all you can think about is motherhood, but sadly even there one of my friends with a kid just said it wasn't what she wanted, after all.
We are all searching for meaning in our lives, and children *may* provide that meaning, but equally may not, and in fairness to the child, you have to be really pretty sure this is what you want.
@Heike @special_boots @everyone else This is why I don't want to have kids. This is exactly why. I know I would end up resenting them for the rest of my life, if not outright hating them. I just don't know how to explain that to all the "But you have two X-chromosomes so you must love BAYBIEEEZ crowd." I think that looking back on your life at 80 and regretting never having a child is ten million times better than looking at your kids and regretting, so that's a chance I'm willing to take. If my biggest regret in life is that I didn't pass on my genes, I think I will have done pretty well for myself?
Although I've been told otherwise, I don't think this makes me a horrible person. I just think this makes me not a mother. And I hate that people who have to grow up knowing that their mothers caved to societal pressure only. That probably came out wrong or offensive or something (I hope not! Not intended to be that way!), but the long and the short of it is that every child should be a wanted child, a 100% wanted child. Nobody deserves any less than that.
@special_boots @posturegirl Oh thank god. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone speak openly and honestly about mothers regretting their children -it always devolves into "it's hard but omg baybieeez", which isn't exactly encouraging for someone who's never understood "omg baybieeez"- and it means a lot to have that presented as a valid experience. Thank you so much.
No-one should ever bring a life into the world that isn't 100% wanted, or raise a young mind in an environment where they weren't truly wanted. The stakes are far too high.
@Apocalypstick Exactly. And this is why A Dude's light-hearted male response annoys me so much. It's easy to feel the love when you haven't been 36 hours in labour or breastfeeding (the depletion seems to lower your immune system and make you so prone to illness) or the primary carer, bored and tired beyond belief.
My disclosure is: happily childfree by choice (as stated further down this thread) but became primary carer for my sister, when I was 12, for 10 years. I love my sister dearly, and feel wholly maternal towards her, but I have to say, generally, childcare is a thankless boring task involving repetition as the way the child learns, (so you sing the same song 5 times a day for 6 months etc). I enjoy my life as a godmother and aunt, my adult life of travel, crafting, creativity. Sorry to sound so negative, but children are the death of creativity.
(And sorry for all the parentheses, it's late night here in Germany and the vodka has been flowing well if not wisely)
Count me in with A Dude regarding the having a baby thing. I am a mom who bore my own young and I totally agree with every syllable he wrote up there.
@Heike I wrote some stuff way below in the comments, but my mom had my sister when I was almost 16 and I, too, love my sister and thought I felt maternal about her and helped raise her. And I was right with you with not wanting kids (a lot BECAUSE of having a hand in raising my sister and seeing it all first-hand). And I'm a creative person and was worried about a kid stifling that. And then I had a kid. And it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. And having a sister that you helped raise does not even compare. Like, at all. And, in some ways, I've been more creative in this past year (she's 21 months old) than I've ever been. And, while no one has thanked me for having her (except, I guess, my husband, heh)… I wouldn't say it's thankless at all. I feel thanked when she looks at me and says "Mommy! Love!" or when people freak out over her in a restaurant. Or when in the rare moments when I'm holding her (she's a mover and a shaker) and she's looking up at me with love.
I would never ever ever tell someone to have kids because it's none of my business and everyone's different and not everyone (and maybe even not most people) should have kids.
But I just wanted to mention the other side of it as well.
That being said, I did stop being in a band for the past 20 months (my daughter is 21 months) because honestly… I just wasn't into it and it would been too difficult. But I still made (a little) music and did art and even shot a documentary that was just picked up for distribution. All in the past 21 months since she was born. And now, I'm ready to start doing the band thing again so I am! My point is sure it can be hard to do the creative thing when you have a kid… but it's FAR from "the death of creativity," heh.
@special_boots Wanted to add that I've been in five bands and have made lots of (admittedly shitty) zines and art since removing that tumor from my womb. My daughter is now 11 and we make a lot of art together… she inspires me to no end. Definitely do not have kids if you don't want to and I'm sorry to anyone who feels forced to make that decision before they're ready to, but in my experience it is pretty fucking great.
@klaus thanks, I just logged in to say something to the same effect- my kid is only two but our personalities are radically different. Art is one of the very few things we have in common, it's my best way of relating to him. I work on "adult" creative projects after he's in bed. It's not that much different than when I was working a 9-5, it's still just about time management and self motivation.
And yes, ladies, don't have if don't want. But I do want to say that I was absolutely positive I didn't want any, strongly disliked loud sticky rude gross kids, did not find them cute, not even babies, made jokes about getting my tubes tied and so forth. I got knocked up by my fiance and after staring at that blue line and asking myself if I could emotionally and financially support a child, I decided to bite the bullet. And now I wouldn't have it any other way. (ETA I was 28 when I got pregnant, was engaged to a guy who made a good salary, and had already sown plenty of drunkass oats).
It is such a very very weird and very very personal decision.
@stormageddon I have to wonder if some of the regret from women who wanted kids until they actually had them comes from preconceived notions and expectations of what motherhood will be like and what your kids in particular will be like. Your kid MIGHT have a personality and interests similar to yours, or they might be like an alien from another planet to you. What children are not: an extension of the self. They might have your laugh or your eyes but they are SO NOT YOU. This whole notion that motherhood is what completes and fulfills a woman is so dangerous and untrue. Kind of like being single versus having a boyfriend/husband. Anyone who expects to get self-fulfillment from other people is setting themselves up for a world of disappointment.
@stormageddon I think part of it as well is that parenting IS pretty thankless, societally speaking. Especially mothering. I mean, it's a really hard fucking job. Which doesn't mean it shouldn't be done and isn't worth doing, but it's also not something you sign up for just cos.
Here's how I feel about it. You know how there's always one family you hear about where they have a couple of bio kids, some adopted kids, and foster fifty million kids with troubles? And how everyone coos about how brave and lovely they are (which they are) but also about how they must be crazy! Who would do that?! Good for them! That is how I feel about all parenting. Respect, everyone, you do a hard hard job, and it's one that I don't want to do.
I would 100% sign up to be a dad, though, in a heartbeat. But I just know that the particular emotional and social burdens of being a mother would do my head in and be bad for everyone. I like to think that I'm more emotionally stable than my own mother, but even so… I was absolutely wanted and planned for, and so was my sister, and I would lay money on the fact that my mother loves us (whatever that means in her twisted brainbox) and thinks it was a good idea to have us, and yet she was still not a good mother.
But none of this need apply to anyone else's life. I mean, it's a super personal, contextual experience, so the decision is going to have to be super personal and contextual. And there really is no way to know until you are in the situation what was the right thing to do, for sure. I am not planning to have kids – I want to be involved in families, but my friends and family members who have kids will have to be enough. My partner has almost-grown kids, at some point I may be a psuedo grandparent. And I feel like I am still emotionally parenting my sister – she's 7 years younger, and my mother was good at the feeding and clothing bit, but completely failed at the 'teaching to be an adult human' bit. So, that's tiring. Anyway, the point is, I'm going into that decision with my eyes open, but I'm still terrified that I'll wake up in ten years and feel empty and sad. But then, I might anyway!
I don't know, I obviously feel strongly about this being a decision only you can make. I would suggest discussing this with your partner and talking about what KIND of parenting relationship you are prepared to enter into. Personally, I would not ever be down with being the primary caregiver. If my partner really wanted kids, and was happy to sign up to be the Boss, then fine. But I don't want to be anyone's Mummy.
@special_boots I woulndn't call motherhood thankless societally. I think it's a weird combination of all women being extremely pressured to become mothers, and an expectation that ALL parenting duties (or 95 percent, at best) will devolve upon the mother. "Motherhood" is damn near worshipped in our society and has been for the past 100 years, but it's tied pretty tightly to a sexist distribution of labor and fixed idea of men's and women's spheres. So I would agree that it sucks to be a mother in society, but in some ways it sucks even more to be a woman in society who has chosen to opt out of being a mother. Because women's only value in society stems from being saintly mother figures, pretty much. Being a dad is pretty much all upside – you get endless plaudits if you are at all involved in your children's lives, and if you're not, well then you're probably still a "good provider" or whatever. The only way you can get shamed is if you completely abandon your kids and refuse to pay child support, and even then, you can still successfully serve in Congress.
@special_boots Thank you so much for posting this. I hate it when people say "once you meet your child, you'll never regret it." Even if you love your child wildly, it's still possible to regret becoming a parent. A friend of my husband's family feels this way. She loves her (now adult) children, but she feels (with some reason) that she wasn't able to be the best parent and she never enjoyed being a parent.
Also, as others are pointing out, I think the whole "you will never understand until you have children of your own how awesome it is" school of thought tends to be primarily a hetero male view. Based on my own experience and most of my friends', it's the mother/woman's life that most drastically changes, and most of my friends have more complicated views on what their life would be like if they had not had children. Many of my friends have said to me that they love their children with every particle of their being, but if they had to go back and make all their decisions over, their decision-making calculus on marriage/childbearing would be very, very different.
@WaityKatie Yes, thankyou, this is a better articulated, more nuanced explanation of what I was too flippant to go into
I guess, for me, (not to make EVERYTHING about my mother, jeez louise) it took me until my mid twenties to get out of feeling like I was serving someone else's personality, and that every choice I made was wrong, etc. All the things that socially come with motherhood (rather than parenthood). So they're things I'm particularly shy of.
My best friend is pregnant at the moment, and some of the assumptions people make about what that means, and their right to an opinion, just horrify me. Of course that is not a reason to do a worthwhile thing that you want to do, but I think it's really important to have conversations about it, as there are here, because it impacts people's lives in real ways.
I mean, the thing is, becoming a mother fundamentally changes your role, even if it doesn't change you. Dads can opt out and have relatively little dramas – either by leaving altogether or by simply opting out of family life and living as a separate unit within the family. A mother who leaves, on the other hand, gets side eye forever.
@posturegirl @Apocalypstick It's been a long-running semi-joke in my family that I should never have children. I have always graciously concurred. My sister had her first child about 7 months ago, and I love him to pieces. That said, I can exit gracefully (and gratefully) when the crying starts in earnest, when there's more than pee in the diaper. I'm making light, especially because thus far he's a well-behaved kiddo.
I've just always known, kids aren't for me. I outgrew that need when I outgrew my Cabbage Patch Kids (ack, dating myself!) I went through a phase where I'd have a noticeable tic whenever a child would scream in public, but I'm more forgiving now. I don't hate children – I really never did – but I certainly recognize I have a lot of work to do on myself (A LOT). I couldn't in fairness continue that work and be a proper mom.
But I am the awesome aunt and my nephew (and any subsequent siblings) will have all the love in my heart, all to themselves.
@gidgetjones I actually had so little interest in the concept of having kids, that I wouldn't even play with cabbage patch dolls, but insisted on having the animal-equivalents (they were called Koosas, why do I remember this?) I pretty much would only play with stuffed animals; no dolls allowed! And despite all this my mother somehow imagined that I would have kids someday…I guess hope springs eternal.
@special_boots KOOSAS! omg that takes me back. I don't know why you remember it, but I'm glad you do. lol.
Well, as someone who is less than three months away from popping out her first (and please, god, only) child that was totally unexpected and as far as bf was concerned, unwanted (I could go either way with the kids thing) I am glad to hear from some folks who feel like its a net positive. I've always loved babysitting – you can give them back at the end of the night! However, as The Day looms nearer, I realize that I HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT THIS WILL BE LIKE! I have worked with small children since my first summer job at 12 years old. I know kids. I even like them. But I am overwhelmed with the sense that my life is going to change. I sure as hell hope that I have no concept right now as to how awesomely my life will be changed for the better after this little man exits my womb. It is also good to hear about the creativity stuff… between his dad's penchant for football and camouflage, I feel like I will need to balance out his education. lol.
My new band name is The Dandy Vages (Vags? Vagii?)
@LaFabuliste It should be The Gift of the Vagi, a wonderfully egotistical glam-rock band and I can't wait to see the glorious set you build for the stage.
@MrComment You, sir, are a treasure.
@MrComment In high school, we referred to pink eye as "the gift of the vag-eye"
@MrComment: You mean clam-rock band.
@Too Much Internet Much better than cuntry music.
My older brother has still not (jokingly) forgiven me for having my first pass-out-with-seizures insulin reaction (at the age of six. 30 years ago). Why has he not forgiven me? He has not forgiven me because I had the temerity to have said reaction while John Denver was playing on the Muppet Show.
My point being… priorities. We sometimes have odd ones.
@AnthroK8 That's OK. There is still heated debate in our family over who lost my sister's Barbie's purse approximately 25 years ago.
@AnthroK8 Hahaha I'm about your brother's age and I *still* remember John Denver's Muppet Show episode. I guess it was a really good one.
@AnthroK8 & stagbeetle & DrFeelGood — Since you are all obviously members of my family, let's also not forget that one time that "Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory" was on and 2 of the kids were not allowed to watch it until the 3rd kid finished his book report? Hmmm?
@bashe Don't even get me started on the time one sister threw up ALL OVER the other sister's Wizard of Oz paper doll set, and they were RUINED and had to be thrown out and never, ever replaced.
@stagbeetle It was a really good one. He made jokes about the fungus among us and sang 'nobody knows the truffles I've seen.' And tried to get them all to go camping in the swamp.
And mention that you will let him punt a dog off the bridge from SD into Coronado. Every guy wants to do that.
WHATTTTTTTTTTTTT?!
@mouthalmighty I know, right? Is that an Anchorman reference? I really hope it's a Anchorman reference, because otherwise…
@NatashaMcG I assumed it was an Anchorman reference.
@mouthalmighty anchorman reference.
@teenie @chevyvan Okay, good. I withdraw my concern.
@NatashaMcG, @chevyvan, @teenie: Oh thank goodness! Ha.
Confession time: I dislike Will Ferrell immensely and no amount of Paul Rudd will ever be enough to get me to sit through Anchorman.
Ahh San Diego. Which of course, in German means a whale's vagina.
@DrFeelGood: This is the only Anchorman reference I know (and the "oh oh ohs", thanks to an ex). A Married Dude, if you'd gone with this one, there would've been NO confusion. Heh.
@mouthalmighty Another good one is "milk was a bad choice". I don't love that movie but it has some good one-liners.
@NatashaMcG I still can't withdraw my concern entirely, because I actually saw someone punt a cat off a porch once, and I've never fully recovered. (Whether the cat recovered, I don't know.)
@mouthalmighty i saw it for the first time last week, and it is funny! the jokes are dumb, but in a good way. and it's kind of feminist.
@mouthalmighty Yes, I am with you. I can find Will Ferrell funny in teeny cameo roles. Otherwise, I feel the same way about him as I do Homer Simpson. Yes, I get it, you are a parody of yourself, but you are TOO GOOD, sir, and it hurts. Now please go away while I think about the lady commune I am going to start.
@teenie Dude is clearly a Louie fan also, with the whole "kids are assholes" bit.
"Say my name out loud [during sex, Internet stranger]" actually made me shudder. And not in a fun way.
@NatashaMcG I had that reaction a couple times during this one. A bit… crass.
@wilarseny
So awkward for a lady to have to start in with "A … Married … Dude!" at a crucial juncture.
@NatashaMcG Remember when A Dude more or less asked a Letter Writer out? Dear A Dudes, Married or Otherwise: You will inevitably squick out the readers if you suggest any sort of personal or intimate connection with the letter writers. Please refrain from doing this. Sincerely, SuperGogo
@NatashaMcG: Whaat. I thought it was funny! Later he mentions surprise pinky up the asshole. Married Dude is flippant, c'mon.
@wilarseny Throughout this article, I has to repeatedly squelch the "Get rid of your A Dude, seriously, he is disgusting" reaction.
@NatashaMcG um, I think he just means to shout out, "DUDE!"
Thank you Dude!
I would submit:
Watching sports on tv = watching tv
Watching tv instead of participating in an annual family social event you flew in an airplane ostensibly to attend = very very bad form that will not be easily forgiven by anyone who's not watching it with you.
Also, having to teach your mate how to be a gracious guest sucks, but is sometimes the price of being mated.
@noReally yeah, the Dude's answer to that question was gold. Good luck, football man.
@saraphonic I logged in just to disagree! As a fellow UMich alum and football fan, the Michigan/OSU game is Halloween, Christmas, and your birthday rolled all into one. I wouldn't consider missing that game for all the tea in China, and any dude who plans to marry me had better take that into account.
I vote make him pick one game to watch in person and let him DVR the other one. That's called compromise.
If you're not a sports fan, then maybe you don't understand. Does he understand your obsessive love of [thing that you love obsessively]? Maybe not. But if you're going to get married, you have to indulge each other a little IMO.
@noReally Disagree.
First of all, to the Dude, American Idol =/= Michigan/OSU. NOT AT ALL. And I am a female.
Here's what she should do. Tell him her family will probably be put off by his game-watching/slothery, and he can react how he wants. If he does it and they get pissed, he then has to deal with her family's disapproval. He won't want to deal with her family's disapproval, so he will end up working his schedule around their plans. He can deal with not watching the entire Lions game, IMO. Also, 7 hours?! What the hell kind of football game is that?? (granted I watch mostly pro football, but that's 4 or 5, tops).
Watching football =/= doing nothing, too. Maybe this is just differences in background, noReally, but I wouldn't consider a person watching an event that's important to them on TV as "very very bad form that's not easily forgiven," whether I'm a fan myself or not.
My sports maniac relatives keep an eye on The Game while we're eating Thanksgiving dinner (early) and then settle in after. It works fine — they are sociable, but don't miss the whole thing. (I don't know if they also tape it at home, but wouldn't be shocked if they do.)
@alliepants I think 7 hours referred to the two games he wants to watch. Also, if they're going to get pissed about it, why can't she bring it up/stand up for him? "Fiance's a big Michigan fan, so he's going to want to watch the game Thursday/Saturday/whatever, is that cool?"
But the question is not, Is football important to some people? And for the record, yeah, if you don't give a shit about either, football = American Idol, and to some, any American Idol > any football game ever. It's rude to watch television instead of participating in family Thanksgiving.
The question is, Is my husband choosing to alienate his inlaws early in their relationship something that I should try to mitigate?
If they think football is stupid, then they will think he is a dick. If he's a gracious guest and cool guy in the beginning, by Thanksgiving 2016 his loving mother-in-law will be bringing him beers in the den so he doesn't miss a second. Because she likes him.
@julieta – Nobody has brought this up, but I think the thing about sports (for me at least) is also about "home" and some heavy things of that nature. Letter Writer mentions that her dude is from Detroit and went to Michigan. It sounds to me like this isn't about sports alone, it's about "Home" – there is other football on Thanksgiving Day, and he hasn't said he needs the whole day clear to watch all football – he wants to be able to watch two games which are very important to his tribe.
I know a lot of people (not chained to gender at all – I know ladies who die for their teams, and dudes who dismiss the whole enterprise) who care a LOT about their team. Especially the people I know from Detroit. I have three friends from that city, friends who are only "kind of" into sports in general. But sports are a way for people to bond. I didn't give a shit about sports until I moved 2000 miles from home – then I became big fans of the teams my relatives had rooted for and I had ignored my childhood.
When the place you're from is having hard times and the butt of jokes, it gets even more intense. Not to say I 100% agree that the dude should be left alone to just watch football – but Michigan/OSU IS a big deal to alum, and the Lions are really doing great right now – it's not just watching football, it's a way to celebrate where he is from and feel proud.
What about trying to get some of the family to watch with him? There's a lot of downtime in a football game – maybe it would even be a good time for LW's family to get to know him, where he is from – nothing makes one nostalgic for home like their home team playing, maybe LW's Dude could tell her family about the place he obviously feels some love for during the (many) lulls in action, and it can be a bonding thing? I know a lot of people who don't care about sports on their own, but have been lovely about my fandom and had an empathetic connection by appreciating the emotion it can bring to me which has led to increased closeness between us. Don't "let him go sit alone" during the thing he loves – see if some of his NEW family wants to share the thing he loves, much as I'm sure LW's Man wants to participate in the things LW's family loves during the 53 or so out of 60 waking hours everyone is together and football isn't on.
@noReally After LW4 said "he went to the University of Michigan", the correct advice would have been "dump your fiancee". Get rid of your U of M alumni, seriously, they are revolting.
…I am only kidding, of course, lest anyone be offended. I am just easily annoyed by folks who carry around their college affiliation well past their college years. U of M alumni seem to have this habit.
@alliepants Yeah, I was surprised by this Dude's reaction, since there's something very holy about the Michigan/OSU game that even non-football fans tend to respect.
But I also wouldn't trust him to make the right call. Chances are that if he decides to watch both games, he wouldn't be the one taking the brunt of the family's disapproval, so it wouldn't have nearly the effect on him that it would have on her. Having sat in a similar position of trying to teach my boyfriend guest etiquette, I think she probably needs to figure out whether her family is actually judging her boyfriend if he hides out in front of the TV for a few turkey-coma hours or if she's just assuming they will (i.e., maybe she'd be annoyed with him, but that doesn't mean her dad cares at all).
It might help to just ask her family what they think "listen, [fiancé] is a super big football fan — will you guys mind if he obsessively watches these games?" Maybe Uncle Joe has been dying for the past 15 years to watch the football game on Thanksgiving but has just been being polite. Maybe her dad really does care, in which case, if I were her, I would sit down with the fiancé and go over all the reasons his impression on my family is important to me, and use the dad's stated disapproval in that conversation. Point being, I just wouldn't expect him to internalize the tut-tuts of future in-laws the way she would.
@hulia Yeah, I thought the same thing. Maybe she should at least give her family the chance to be understanding. If she's so worried about them disapproving of him that she won't even ask, that's a problem in itself.
@leon.saintjean I am not from Michigan, but completely agree with you, especially since for many, watching football on Thanksgiving is as much a part of Thanksgiving as turkey and pumpkin pie. One year for Thanksgiving I was with non football watching friends and they had fucking PBS ballet on TV and it felt like the worst Thanksgiving in the world, and for the record I love ballet.
@thebestjasmine See, I'm the opposite way about sports on Thanksgiving. No one in my family watches sports, and if someone's SO came over and wanted to commandeer the TV all day for a football game, there's no way that would happen. We'd let them check the score every so often, but football all day would make the entire family cranky as hell.
@Roaring Girl No one is saying he has to watch football all day on Thanksgiving — he wants to watch one 3 hour game that starts at noon. I mean, he's her family too, and if he wants 3 hours to enjoy himself and relax if he's spending the whole day with her family, it feels pretty mean to not let him have it. Especially if he can be in another room by himself hanging out and watching football while the rest of the family does their non football thing.
@thebestjasmine I will just point out that in my family, "Thanksgiving" is pretty much from noon to 3. We have dinner at 2. So it would be a significant break from our norm.
@Lily Rowan But there are SO many ways to work around it that aren't just saying "no, you're not allowed to watch this game that is very important to you." Keeping the TV on and having him pop back and forth during dinner and see the 2nd half, TiVo the game if the family has a DVR and he can start from the beginning after dinner, push the time of dinner a little early or a little late to accommodate him. I just don't understand why it has to be all one or all the other — she knows that this is important to him, he's already not going to his family on Thanksgiving, can't she and her family work to make his first Thanksgiving with her family one that makes him happy too?
@thebestjasmine Sure, I'm not saying it's impossible, or that the boyfriend is wrong, I'm just saying it's a very different culture. Dinner time would not change, in my family — it's a ton of people from various family branches, and it is what it is. And if the sports fan is willing to not sit and watch the whole game, then it all works out, which is what I think the best of extended family is, anyway — everyone gives a little for the group.
@thebestjasmine
Amen. Yours is the most sensible answer so far. If her family dislikes sports to such a degree that it offends them to make any of the compromises you suggested, then I'm guessing there are going to be many, many sports and non-sports related problems down the road for this couple.
@fishiefishfish A Married Dude's answer about the football games was mortifyingly bad. Sure, I grant that the guy probably doesn't need to watch the Lions game during the time most families reserve for Thanksgiving dinner. But is it really such a crushing burden on the family if the guy wants to spend 3 hours on the Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend watching the most important football game of the year instead of, I dunno, going biking with his mother-in-law? If the rest of the family wants to be right where the TV is, then he can go watch at a bar. Who exactly is the victim?
People have things they like to do, and part of not being a massive dick to other people is respecting their right to have their own preferences about how they want to spend their time. In fact, sometimes it's even nice to act happy when your partner gets to do things they enjoy! Unless LW is under the impression that her fiance is socially inept, she should keep her mouth shut, let him make his own decision about what he wants to do, and don't make him feel bad about it if he decides he wants to watch the game (which, at least for Michigan-Ohio State, I can almost guarantee he will).
@fishiefishfish I sort of agree but also don't (respectfully, of course.) I LOVE sports and have been known to occasionally bitch and moan if something messes with my game-watching/superstitions/desire to wear a certain player's shirt that day/talking about how much I wish I could go to an LA Kings game this season, like seriously you have no fricking idea and no don't tell me to shut up I just want to see Anze Kopitar be awesome, OK. But… at the same time, you have to prioritize. There will be things that are worth recording a game for, or missing part of it for. I've missed some pretty important hockey games to go to concerts with my best friend (who's not a sports fan) and not regretted it because those were fucking incredible concerts we went to.
I know some people don't see it that way, but… Sports are awesome. But the game won't know if you step away for a quarter. There are some cases in which people (or maybe delicious turkey dinners) matter more, and sometimes it's easy to forget that.
@noReally I'm the sort of person who would worry about this too, but at some point, the LW will have to separate herself from what her family thinks of this guy, if he does this. It's not a reflection on her. (I don't know if that plays into this at all, or if she's just totally worried about how the others will see each other.)
@leon.saintjean I COULD NOT AGREE MORE! Especially at Thanksgiving, ESPECIALLY if I'm away from home. I think you're right on.
I still don't believe that sharing your genes makes children's vomit or excrement any less disgusting than normal. Hell, I loved my dog unfathomably and still wanted to flee forever when she threw up. My immature self will be over here in the corner, planning imaginary international voyages with my very imaginary future savings.
"Don't think about the times when all of them are crying at once. Imagine all of them laughing at once."
This is precisely the kind of argument that makes me convinced that having children is so very awful that it forced humans to evolve the capacity for baseless post-hoc self-justification.
Not sold. Will not be saying your name during sex. ("Oh yeah, yes, yes, MARRRIEEEED DUUUUUDE!")
@February Revolution: Imagining all of them laughing still won't prevent all of them from crying.
@February Revolution That advice is not helpful anyway, because the sound of children's laughter actually makes my hair fall out.
@February Revolution I actually really liked this as a metaphor/thought experiment.
I think it's like any kind of love – the bad bits can be so awful, but they don't bleed over and make the good bits bad. That said, they don't necessarily even out, either. What I mean is, the good bits can be pure and good, but they might not be enough. There's a lot of joy to be had with other people, and some of those other people are children. But that doesn't mean it's worth it, for you.
"People who expect the world to revolve around them for insanely stupid reasons are shiteaters."
You could take out the "for insanely stupid reasons" and that would still be a sound piece of advice. In fact, I like it more.
The thing is, it's not always alright once you have a kid – and if you're one of the unlucky ones whose maternal instinct doesn't kick in when it's your own, then you, your partner and your kid are in a really shitty situation. I had serious angst a few years ago in a similar situation, and upon speaking about it with friends who had kids, I was really surprised at how many of them admitted that they wished they hadn't done it. It's not remotely socially acceptable to say it, but it does happen – and a hell of a lot more often than I was expecting to find out.
There's a big difference between cold feet, which I am sure every potential parent gets, and really not being sure you want them at all.
@Es Agreed on all fronts. Also, imagine how shitty it is to be the kid whose mother never wanted kids and resents you for being born. That's monumentally unfair. Even my mom, who would love nothing more than for me to have a child, has said to me "Don't have one if you don't want one. Why create a human being just to make you both miserable?"
@Bebe @Es Yep. A really close friend of mine had a mom who was talked into kids by her husband. She ended up doing all sorts of weird stuff, like tracking milk consumption with a line on the jug to keep them from "wasting" it. Now that the kids are grown men the family has a better relationship, but it's not great.
@Es Man, that is crazy interesting. Thank you for posting.
@Bebe Reason #1,000,000 why I love my mother: my younger sister just found out she's pregnant (first one of us girls, she's 28), she's been married for 6 years and my older sister for 11, and my mom has never ever pressured either of them to have grandbabies (I'm the old maid, she wouldn't pressure me). She's super excited now, but loves that we're all totally independent and driven, and would never dream of harassing us to create little people for her enjoyment.
<3 you moms!
@Es This is all so true and it is rarely talked about among people that have kids. I have two kids, and when friends ask if they are "ready" or how hard it really is, I tell them that our life is not better or worse for having children, just very very different. I had lots more to say, but forgot it because I spent nearly an hour trying to upload a photo of my dog for my profile, and he still looks all squashy and weird.
@no way My mom always really really wanted kids but never thought much beyond the cute baby/toddler stage where we were super attached to her and filled with unconditional love… once we got older and started to become real people with personalities and desires she basically had no interest in us and constantly infantalized us when we did interact.
She'd have been better off getting a dog.
(Possibly because of this I have no interest in babies but would love to foster/adopt older kids/teens in the future)
@smeeked He looks really cute there!
@Inkcrafter Thanks! I swear his melon is at least 5 times bigger than that, though.
@Es I am really digging this whole comment thread (even though I'm late to it. Ugh, I always miss out on Friday's stuff). I feel like there is so much competition to have made the right choice, and so much defensiveness. Like the stay at home/working mum thing, but BEFORE CONCEPTION.
I've always thought a lot about the abstract of having kids, and I think now that I'm 99% decided not, I will continue to think about it. My reaction on learning that my partner – who has two kids and a vasectomy – is Done Forever with parenting, was relief. I think that's telling. But I do get defensive sometimes, because there's such an unspoken thing about how you're not… finished… if you haven't had kids. And man, I really really love kids. I just love sleeping more. I am so pumped now my bestie is pregnant because it was hard work not peer pressuring her at all when she was debating the kids issue. It's not fair to make her fulfil my desire for Family.
Anyway, my point is, I am loving that this conversation is happening in this honest, nuanced way, and that it steps out of the marked lines into people's actual experiences.
lots of people who aren't sure they want kids change their mind. there are some people who think they want kids and then it turns out badly for them and they wish they hadn't. and you just can't predict it. unfortunately, it's not a question someone else can guide you on.
Very, very true. I was not maternal, had no particular enthusiasm for or interest in children, but having a child has been a joy. The. Best. Ever. A lot has to do with your partner, and your own attitude to risk. Are you a risk taker? Because you're staking your happiness and that of your child and partner on the biggest crap shoot the universe has to offer.
@bashe and the partner thing – THE PARTNER THING – having someone loving and supportive vs. the opposite of that good stuff will make the biggest difference ever. I'm a risk taker, and I've got the sweetest, most supportive partner. And my baby pangs are at fever pitch
@bashe As I am wont to say to my husband, "I don't want to have a baby; I want to have a baby with YOU." Huge, huge difference. Staggering, really.
Wait. A. Minute. Dudes who are afraid of taking pills are jabbing their dicks with NEEDLES?! NEEDLE-DICK???!?! WHAAAAAT??
PS I like this A Married Dude. A lot. He's a straight-shootin' kinda guy. The gratuitous cursing is also a nice touch.
@giraffelegs Agreed. Solid answers. Yay A Married Dude!
@giraffelegs
Yes, a guy who finds "a shitton" more expressive than a mere ton — I'd trust his judgment.
@giraffelegs Agreed, I like him. I didn't get the shudders at all!
@giraffelegs All the nitpicky hateing is actually making me sad / defensive. I've stopped myself three times now from responding to hater with THIS DUDE IS GREAT SHUT UP.
It's Friday. Let's all chill out a bit…. pour some bourbon in you Big Gulp or some shit.
(also: bring on some accidental free stylin')
@JoanTition I wish I had put some bourbon in my Big Gulp as it looks like I can not spell for shit today.
Or maybe I'm high? Let's pretend that.
@JoanTition Okay I will set aside my feelings about the phrase "hating" for the moment and just point out that saying "I disagree with this" or "this bothered me/skeeved me out for X,Y,Z reasons" is criticism, not "hating." And criticism is at least thirty percent of the point of these columns, no?
@NatashaMcG (my breakdown, if you're wondering, being 30% criticism, 30% agreement and 40% sharing personal anecdotes).
@NatashaMcG I am not being serious today and chose to not to comment on the threads with criticism in them because I am in a totally different mind space. I get it. I comment all the time. It's cool. I'm just not feeling the hate right now. THAT'S ALL.
The Lions-Packers game on Thanksgiving is a regular season game that doesn't really decide anything, so it should be missable. It would be nice for him to be able to catch some of it, but it's not crucial. The OSU-Michigan game is a big deal. Can't a minor football habit be one of those acceptable eccentricities?
If you had kids, the families would be so distracted by them that they wouldn't care if he was off watching football.
@MrComment : I just have to say, with the Lions being surprisingly awesome this year and the Packers being undefeated- I would say for a regular season game it would still be a MUST WATCH game for any fan of the NFL, regardless of team affiliations.
W #1, I'm not an expert on having kids or anything but I truly believe that I am one of those people who will like my own kids but not other people's kids. When you have your own kids, you can raise them how you want so that they don't turn out to be complete brats. It won't be easy but it is possible to raise well behaved kids that don't have tantrums every five minutes. And I find kids that don't have tantrums to be far less annoying than the ones that have meltdowns all the time. Who knows, you could end up having kids like this. http://youtu.be/uMuorX2mgrw
That said, don't go rushing into anything.
"My kid would never do that!"
"I hate other people's kids, but my kids will be different"
"Can you believe she let her kid do that? I would never!"
Shed any of these ideas before you have kids.
@parallel-lines I have no allusions that my children will be different, but I do hate children not related to me.
@DrFeelGood I have fully ceded to the fact that some day my potential offspring will be running through the streets picking their nose and wearing mismatched socks and someone will look at my kid and be like, "Look at that annoying little shit" and I will have lost all will to be like, "No, it's DIFFERENT." Because your kid is an annoying little shit to someone somewhere.
@parallel-lines haha. This is why I cannot stand the Moms I know whose whole schitck is "My kid is perfect". Your kid is 30 now, lady, I think he made a FEW mistakes a long the way.
@DrFeelGood Seriously though. Sometimes when I think about having vs. not having kids, I'm like "But then I'll have to be around OTHER PEOPLE'S KIDS all the time." And other people's kids are fucking annoying.
@DrFeelGood I keep biting my tongue at my grandmother talking about what angels her kids were. I know them now, and I SEVERELY doubt it! Also, three kids in four years? I doubt it even more.
@parallel-lines Just remember, though: Your sons will be perfect and make your life perfect as long as they're tall.
@parallel-lines My anxiety about having kids is knowing that mine will be little shits and that they will not be the perfect exceptions. I know I'll love them (on the days when I don't want to throw them out the window), and I know I want kids, but I am admittedly terrified of how my "what are other people thinking of me" insecurities could manifest themselves with respect to a terror of a toddler.
@punkahontas I dunno. One of the side effects of having a kid of your own is that you feel more protective and forgiving of other peoples' kids. At least I do? Am I a freak? Probly.
Your kids friends will probably drive you nuts, but if your kid really likes them, you might find that you like them too in spite of how annoying they are.
And, I'm convinced that we raise the kids that we can stand. My sons rarely drive me nuts, while their friends do. I think this is because my husband and I have molded them into our own image and they dont do the things that bug us the most (though they can definitely do thing that are annoying). Other parents are bugged by different things, so they may let things slide that we wouldn't and buckle down on behaviors that don't personally bother us. Thus, we are all bugged by each other's kids. Voila.
@bashe That is actually very good to hear. Thanks!
@punkahontas Even worse, you have to be around the Sanctimonious Mothers. Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are mothers (ahahaa I crack me up). And one of my best friends, WAS my best friend, until she reproduced and turned into a Scantimonious Mother. I don't take that shit from my own mother, and she pushed me out of her vagina. I prefer my friends non-judgy, so we are no longer best friends.
Childless by choice and planning to stay that way. I taught high school.
@S. Elizabeth Also childless by choice. Just never had that "OMG MUST HAVE BABY" feeling. Ever. And I like kids! Well, not teenagers so much, but does anyone?
@Bebe I actually like teenagers better. I can talk about books with many of them. (As in, books I've actually read and liked. I read a lot of YA.) Then again, most of the teenagers I meet aren't really average teenagers.
But I was REALLY commenting to say that I've never gotten the itchy womb either. As far as I'm concerned, little kids are for delighting in the line at the grocery store with the crazy faces I can make, and that's as far as I go.
@Bebe Ha, I am also CBC but I like teenagers but not kids. I actually like them from around 10 or 11 on up, at least as well as I like anybody, which is not that much. But they have to be old enough to talk about novels and understand cock jokes or I just don't know what to say to them.
@Bebe I've had the itchy womb thing… for about a month. It was strange. I like the idea of kids — so cute! Adorable little mini-me people! Watching them grow up and all of the wonder! And then I think about all of the bullshit like how I don't want to sacrifice my career/living situation/money/relationship with potential future partner/sanity and yeah no, rugrats are not that important to me.
It's funny, because I feel like I did get that maternal thing and I do sometimes get womb itch, but that doesn't make me actually want to be a parent. I do not want to be a parent at all.
THIS GOES HERE, NOT UPTHREAD, OKAY COMMENTING SYSTEM?
@queenofbithynia One of the most uncomfortable conversations I've ever had in my life happened recently at a local restaurant. A relatively charming little girl came up to a few friends and self occupying a corner table and the following exchange took place (as accurately as I can recall):
Little Girl: I think you have my granma's magazine. She left it here on this table.
Self: Oh – I'm sorry. We're not reading it. You can have it back.
LG (airily): It's okay, you can have it. Is your sandwich good? You still have half a sandwich.
Self: I see.
LG (pointing to an open page): I like this picture. Do you like this picture? I'm really good at drawing.
Self: Ah. I think your grandmother is looking for you, maybe.
At this point I had shifted into an entirely different chair because said child was drifting dangerously close to my lap. I'm not for sitting; I'm a human being.
@S. Elizabeth I actually don't hate ALL teenagers – our niece is 17 (today!) and is probably one of my favorite people on my husband's side of the family, She's funny, sarcastic, hates all the same things I hate, has great fashion sense. But she still has her moments – slamming doors, talking back, sulking when she doesn't get her way. That's the part of teen-dom I can live without forever.
Now, 5-9, that's my age group. Kids are hilarious then, and the toys are super cool.
@S. Elizabeth -also childless by choice. I love my friends' kids, like teenagers, have insane tolerance levels for random kids I encounter… but I love my life and I live for and am sustained by my interests- and I know that they are not compatible with motherhood. I'm a contented Godmother
@S. Elizabeth I have the same thing, but it's been going on for longer than a month for sure. I'm in my mid-30s, and that biological clock thing is kicking in — I've never wanted children, but all of a sudden see only babies everywhere. It's like my body is betraying my mind, and I DON'T LIKE IT.
@Heike Yes, this is me. I guess the thing is that I thought about it, and I realised that most of the things I would want from having kids, I can get in other ways – and make other people's lives better doing it. Babysitting, volunteering, being a support person in people's lives. Anything I can't get that way are not healthy urges – they are about being important through someone else. That isn't the case for everyone, but it is for me, so I'm not doing that.
@Persimmon I live in fear of that. I've just come off of Implanon, and I feel like that may have dampened my bioclock. The last time I was off it I had six months where ads with babies in made me all teary. It was awful. Betrayed is right.
@S. Elizabeth At first I read this as "I taunt high school," which somehow made it even better.
@queenofbithynia I so agree. If I could have kids that magically came into being at maybe age 10, I might consider doing it. Before that age they are so gross and boring. I really don't get the baby thing. Pretty much I want to be in my 50's-60's and have kids coming home from college for the holidays and opening presents and telling me about their classes, and then not being there anymore. Not sure how to make this happen? And to those of you slightly younger people who are worried about a sudden bio-clock onset, I can tell you that I am in my mid-30's and have felt nary a twinge of such feeling, ever. Of course, all my friends are married with kids and I spend much of my time enduring pitying whiny comments about why I can't fiiiiind someooonnnne and seeeeettle dooowwwwwn, etc., but not much I can do about that.
@WaityKatie Yes, I would be up for having a child the Buffy/Angel way (have some monks construct a child out of my blood and mystical energy as a fully-formed teenager with artificial memories. and/or have a baby raised in another dimension as a resourceful killer until it's Vincent Kartheiser. I mean until it's fifteen.)
@Heike yes yes yes. Totally agreed. I have known since I was a child (pushing 30 now and recently married) that I did not want children and get a lot of comments about how it will be different when it's my kids. While tantrums and kid behaviors can drive me nuts, I don't actually dislike kids. I just dislike the thought of spending more than a short and finite period of time around them and of being ultimately responsible for them or having them be an important part of my life.
The older I get, and the more exposure I have to kids and parents, the more I realize it's not for me. I am so, so happy being coupled and childfree. This is my family – I can't imagine it just being a stopping point to something else.
@arrr starr Wheerrre did you meet your childfree partner, if you don't mind my asking? Because, assuming that you are straight (just punch me in the face if you aren't), I find it virtually impossible to find dudes that DON'T want kids. Usually the only ones who don't want them are those who don't want any kind of committed relationship at all, as if those two things went inseparably hand in tiny adorable hand. It's depressing.
@WaityKatie I am not really straight, but I am in an opposite marriage so your question does apply. We met in New York City in one of the typically kind of sketchy not at all cute ways.
He's actually the first guy I dated that didn't want kids… all my earlier relationships were either non-relationships or I didn't take all that seriously because I knew our lives were headed in different directions that way.
Though I have to say – and I can't remember if I commented with this lower down or if I thought about it and deleted before hitting reply – that his childfree-ness is much less defined than mine. While he initially did not want kids at all, he has gotten a lot keener on the idea over the past few years… we had to have a lot of talks about our expectations and attitudes about kids to realize that 1) the amount of parenting I am willing to put in + the amount of parenting he is willing to put in equals a very, very small fraction of what is needed to raise a child and 2) while he's ambivalent, he's not at all ambivalent about the fact that he'd rather be childfree with me than give that up and theoretically maybe have children with someone else.
I totally feel you on feeling like all guys want kids. In my social group, the guys tend to be way more gung ho on the kids thing than the women and maybe that's because of this whole "being a dad" thing where guys have this perception and sometimes this reality that they won't have to do as much of the grunt work whereas women are afraid of getting all that work pushed onto them. I think a lot of open and honest communication is helpful because while you can't be half-childfree, there's a lot that goes into deciding. Sometimes I'm terrified of one or both of us changing our minds, but we're also making life plans together that pretty much preclude the possibility, so I'm pretty sure this is me being paranoid.
@S. Elizabeth My husband and I are the same way, which is why we're perusing adoption from foster care. It's not an easy route, but parenting overall isn't easy. And how nice is it to start out with a child who's old enough to say, "I'm about to throw up," before running to the bathroom, rather than one who just boots all over you?
Is anyone else totally creeped out by the phrase "that baby saunters out of your dandy vag"??? This from a man who thinks that he is pregnant just because his wife is pregnant. Gross.
@KitCate I actually thought that line was hilarious. The "say my name during sex" line made me feel a little weird, though.
@KitCate I pictured it wearing a derby hat and carrying a walking stick. (if that were how it actually happened I might be much less opposed to having babies).
I feel obliged to step in and defend the dudes (and ladies!) who want to watch football on Thanksgiving weekend. Maybe you don't give a shit about football, but for some of us it's a big part of our culture. It's a way to connect with our fathers, mothers and close friends. It's a way to stay connected to where we grew up. And we just simply enjoy watching it.
Yes, it's significance is largely bullshit, but then again so is some random Thursday in November in which we collectively deceive ourselves about the state of Native American-early European settler relations. To act like wanting to have a few hours for your own interests over the course of the weekend is "expecting the world to revolve around you" is absurd. If he or she spends all day with your family from Wednesday night through Sunday, except for a few hours whenever the game happens to be, it's not the end of the world.
(Also, comparing slipping away for a football game during a family weekend to missing American Idol during the birth of your childhood is ridiculous.)
Point being, you aren't always going to understand why your partner cares about the things they care about, but calling them selfish for caring about them isn't a good start. It's not a good way to get them to care about or try to understand the things you care about either.
That being said, two football games is pushing it. I fucking LOVE football, but I don't think it'd be out of line for you to ask him to pick which game is most important and just watch one. And he better pick OSU/Michigan or he's crazy.
@Graydon Gordian Cosigned! Was just posting basically the same thing upthread (my brother and I are actually missing family Thanksgiving so we can be in Ann Arbor for the game). Family bonding FTW!
@fishiefishfish Double cosigned. Pick one game, and warn your family beforehand? "He's a huge Michigan fanatic and it's important to him to watch X, it would be great if you guys want to watch with us"? Start a new tradition! It's only a few hours. And he can antisocially check his phone/run out of the room/DVR it/whatever for the other game.
@Graydon Gordian: Sneaking away from the turkey mayhem to watch the game is an honorable tradition!
@Graydon Gordian Point is, he's missing out on "family bonding" with his new family, who may not get it, or care about his hobbies, and who he doesn't know that well. She said he might be watching TV for 7 hours, which will look bad, like it or not. (I do realise that you said he should only pick one.)
@Graydon Gordian I am not a football fan but agree just the same. If they are spending 3-4 days or more together it is sometimes nice to have a few hours to yourself (both the family and the fiance gets a little break from non-stop socializing.)
@timesnewroman Notably, though, the two games are not on the same day. It'd be more like 3-4 hours or so twice over the weekend, assuming he did watch both.
@fishiefishfish Ahh that does make it more socially acceptable to my mind.
@timesnewroman Well, there's no guarantee that this "bonding" thing is going to happen anyway, even with all the time in the world, right? I mean, if they like him, they'll be okay with him watching some football, and if they don't, there's a whole world of irritation for all parties to look forward to in the future.
My brother-in-law is CRAZY annoying. He wants to have the TV on all the time, watching whatever sport is on; he drinks at least a case of Coke a day (not an exaggeration, he drinks them with breakfast, and often drinks more than one type of coke at the same time during a meal); he is OCD and likes to leave a hair-dryer on when he's relaxing, just for the noise it makes. Bottom line? He treats my sister like a queen, so we all put up with it and love him for what he is.
@oeditrix Yeah, I was about to comment similarly. If her fiance is a nice dude, treats her well, and her family likes him otherwise, they will deal with him wanting to watch football. I've had Husband come over to my parents' house multiple times and park in front of a game until dinner. They DON'T CARE. They love him dearly, but it means that they get more time with just me – they are not complaining.
@oeditrix Wow, didn't expect the anecdote to end that way. Beautiful, in a thought-provoking way.
@Graydon Gordian What I don't understand is why they're deciding to spend Thanksgiving with her family at all — if it's his "culture" or tribe that watching football is important to, why did they choose this holiday visiting schedule? Also, why is him going home to watch football with his family and her going to eat turkey at noon with her family not an option? [insert rant about how effed up it is that once you're coupled it's inappropriate to spend time apart blah blah blah]
@chickaboom Dude, I do not understand why it's considered inappropriate for couples to spend time apart either. I love my husband, but I also love my family and friends from back home. Why can't we both go see people that are important to us during the holidays?
@oeditrix I hate that this is my First Comment Ever, but that hairdryer thing was on one of those My Revolting Addiction-type shows–it's apparently really dangerous and people die in fires because they end up sleeping with hairdryers in bed (WHAT). So maybe this duder needs a white-noise machine?
Ok, potential SEAL wife. A Dude also cannot tell you how to handle this huge decision. Sorry for the seemingly snobby military perspective, but it's something no civilian can really understand. I didn't get it until my husband joined the army. Military wives have balls. They have to. If you make the decision to leave civilian life with your boyfriend (and trust me, you do when you marry the military), you and he will face not just big questions but the biggest questions. You need to set a standard now that you aren't afraid to take a stand in your life decisions because it's so easy to get swept up in the current of military life—being told what to do, where to go, and when to do it. Being told one minute that you can settle down in a cozy house and the next that your husband is shipping off to Afghanistan.
Seriously, stop thinking like you would be forcing him into marriage and start thinking whether or not you're forcing yourself into marriage, too. I married my husband under very similar circumstances, and it is hard. Every day. We got married just so we could stay together because in the military there is no other way. We moved 1500 miles from our home after he was in training for six months. There were times that I wanted to leave him, but when you're a military wife, you essentially give up all of the other parts of your life to be with your husband. Start considering not just how a move would support your husband but how it would support you and your life you, too. I left my career, my family and my friends. There was a lot of gutting loneliness.
You need to ask your boyfriend how he feels, and tell him how you feel. This is how you do marriage. Think about what all of this would mean for your life, and tell him. The most important thing is that you work out these big life things together.
Wishing you lots of courage and luck. Believe it or not, you totally have it in you.
@herebullet i have a lot of military friends, and i just wanted to give you big ups for what you put here. I think one of the things that is a flag to me about that letter is that communication in military families is a HUGE factor in their success, yet the LW seems to be having all these thoughts but not wanting to talk about them or ask her beau about his thoughts, which – in any relationship really, but especially in one with as much possible stress as a military relationship – really isn't going to cut it. find your gonads, LW, and talk to him, hash it out, get in a habit of communication. you're going to need it if this relationship goes the way you say you want it to go.
All I can say is, thank God she clarified he was both her boyfriend and her best friend. Because I was like, couldn't she talk to her best friend about this problem? And then I realized her best friend was calling from inside her boyfriend.
@melis She's my sister (slap!) She's my daughter (slap!) she's my sister and my daughter!
@melis Hahhaha I <3 you. I hate when girls write in facebook status updates, "Today I marry my best friend!" "Me and my best friend/bf are going on datesies night! Heartz!" Because… um…. shouldn't your partner ALSO be a good friend, not just someone there for the hot sex? Like, if your partner isn't also your friend, is s/he just your fuck buddy? But then I read a quote from Jerry Seinfeld's wife where she said something like, "My husband isn't my best friend! That's ridiculous! My best friend is my best friend!" So now I'm just confused.
@herebullet Yes. This. And also, not to be too much of a downer, but she MUST prepare herself for the probability–not possibility–that he will fail. Depending on how you do the math, there is a 70-80% chance that he won't become a SEAL. But it sounds like from what she says, she needs to believe that he absolutely, definitely will in order to convince herself that marriage and moving is the right thing to do? It's just another facet of the unpredictability of the military lifestyle. Kudos to you for making it work.
@parallel-lines
Fine…as long as you don't serve the chicken that way.
@herebullet This is great advice. I'm not military-affiliated, but I was thinking the whole time I was reading her letter/the dude's advice: "If this girl can't bring herself to talk about their future before things get really stressful with all his training, how will they ever be able to talk about 'big stuff' when he's actually in the military?'"
@clamshell: Came to say this. Most applicants don't become SEALs. And then have to take a different job to serve out their tour.
@SarahP I thought the same thing! I was also reading it and thinking that he is as into this relationship as she is or he would have brought it up.
@whereismyrobot It sounds like she may have a problem I've had lately, where one person's career/schooling is at a crossroads and the other person gets a little codependently wrapped up in it. She needs to make sure she has a job, hobbies, etc, portable ones if she chooses to go with him (because military life is rough and obviously both people can't have what they want 100% of the time), but things other than cooking and cleaning and being supportive — because I'm sure the training is emotionally draining, and being there for someone who doesn't have the emotional energy to seem as appreciative as I'm guessing she'll want sounds like a sad situation.
@julieta Yes, this person sounds like they have nothing else…or she is just young.
@Too Much Internet: Not becoming a SEAL could actually be beneficial to a new marriage, once the initial crush of not getting through BUD/S passes. On the one hand, once you're on a SEAL team, you're either in Norfolk or San Diego permanently. And you have the status of being a SEAL wife. But on the other, being a SEAL requires near-constant travel–their training is rarely done on-base. Not to mention the out-of-the-blue deployments and not knowing where your husband is going. A friend of mine dropped out during Hell Week and went back to his job as Military Police, and things have worked out fine for him. His wife is pregnant and quite happy to have him around.
Also, I've found in my experience that the people who are outwardly confident about becoming a SEAL before BUD/S are the ones who drop out the quickest (not necessarily applying it to LW's case, but have seen it often). The guys who make it are the ones who are quiet and steely and have superhuman reflexes and instincts, not the ones who work out the most before they go. But I digress. I hope it works out for both of them, if it ends up being what they both truly want.
@herebullet I have one other issue to insert here via my friend who was the girlfriend of a soldier (now wife). Due to the fact that she was only his girlfriend and not his wife, when he got shipped off to Afghanistan and then Iraq, she basically had no idea where/how he was and he wasn't allowed/able to call her for roughly 6 entire months. They wouldn't have been chatting constantly even if they had been married, but they would have had more possibilities to at least communicate. And, in the horrible worst case scenario that unfortunately military wives have to worry about, if something had happened she would have gotten a call. Instead she spent her time not knowing if the lack of contact was due to something horrific or simply him not being able to call her.
@ormaisonogrande Can I just say that these comments about life as a military wife/Navy SEAL have been fascinating? I knew none of this before, so it's been very enlightening. Thanks for sharing!
@ormaisonogrande It's so true. It's why I got married so early. Well, more because I wouldn't have been recognized by the military when it came time for us to move together and for me to have health care since I was leaving my career to be with him. It's a really difficult decision with no easy option. But that's the military.
@herebullet Thank god for your comment. It was sensitive, well thought out and well researched. Unlike the Dude's comment, which seemed so flippant and pushy. I hope the letter writer reads your comment!
But wait: if the creative classes don't maintain a replacement fertility rate, who will be tomorrow's website commenters? What will become of our country?
@Tulletilsynet Plus ten points for using the phrase "creative classes."
@Tulletilsynet Let's do it for our
countryInternet.@Lucienne
I'm from the procreative classes. Old school dude REPRESENT!
"Everyone I talk to says, "I never knew what love was until I had a kid," etc. Is this schmaltzy crap true?"
Maybe this is true for the people who said it, but in general, this is bullshit. The 'you don't know real love until you have kids' trope is as bad as the 'you're not a real woman unless you have kids' trope. Have kids because you want to, not because other people tell you that's the only way to be a true human being.
@sympathyforthebasementcat Wish I could like this a thousand times!
"Try it and find out! If you do not feel instantaneous and magical love, well, that's what fire stations are for."
@sympathyforthebasementcat It is complete bullshit. Kids introduce such a level of out-of-controlness into one's life that it is literally impossible to know the final outcome. They will test you in ways you never thought imaginable–and ruin otherwise lovely days for inane reasons. Of course you love them and have beautiful moments, but there's no benefit to sugar coating it. I think it's best for people to have children when they have entered a certain settled/domestic lifestyle first where dinner parties have replaced keg parties, and going to bed at 10 p.m. is considered normal. Having a life that children fit into, in other words.
@melis
Yes! There is a fire station on my way to work with one of those signs out front and I always imagine that, if you leave your baby there, it will be raised by firefighters. Like, the firefighters will take the baby to fires and carry the baby up the ladder with them in a special CFD baby backpack thing, and the baby will have a tiny axe and tiny smoke mask!
@josiah OK, now I want to do that.
OH MY GOD YES
@sympathyforthebasementcat One friend congratulating another on the birth of her kid on Facebook: "your life does not begin until the day your first child is born." Barf. Smug much?
@josiah Now I am SO MAD at my parents for not letting me be raised by firefighters!
@bridgerrr I kind of want to punch the friend who said that in the face.
Also, being raised by firefighters would be awesome. Still not going to have a kid just so they can be.
@josiah Wait, I thought this was why wolf packs were invented? You know, you live near a forest, you drop unwanted babies off at a convenient stand, and then you never see them again because they are having so much fun with their wolf moms. It seems like the firefighters dragging your kid all over town would just make you feel bad.
@sympathyforthebasementcat Agreed. I have the baby, right, and she's great, but it's basically the same love I have for my parents and my husband, and, honestly, our mixed-breed dog. Which is a lot.
@sympathyforthebasementcat I'm kind of loving the different reactions to motherhood! I TOTALLY feel the "It's the greatest thing I ever did!" thing. Now I'm sort of feeling lucky that I feel that way, heh. I love my daughter more than I've ever loved anyone, and I didn't think that was possible. But the whole "My life didn't truly begin until I had my baby," thing is both bullshit and sad. I had a great life before my daughter and now I have a different and still great (and, yeah, better) life WITH her. And I'm NOT (well… WAS not) a maternal person. I always felt kind of awkward with other people's kids (unless they had Star Wars action figures). No one is more shocked than me about how I feel about motherhood.
@bridgerrr That is disgusting, and leads to facebook profiles with a picture of a baby instead of the goddamn human being person your friend is. Talk about erasure and self effacing.
You had a life and an identity before the kid, don't act like you're the girl in Talk to Her and were awakened by your little womb raider bursting free.
@Gnatalby "Womb Raider." Please marry me.
@S. Elizabeth I reeeeeally wish I could take credit for that, but I stole it from a pregnant friend.
@sympathyforthebasementcat And also it's really erasing of adoptive families (not their 'real kids' and so don't 'really' love them) and step families and all kinds of other arrangements that aren't straight-up bio parents living in a little unit separate from everyone else. Which there is nothing wrong with, it's just not the ONLY way to be a loving family. It can be a hurtful attitude, and the flip side is the one I get – but she's you mum! She loves you REALLY! Well, that's as may be, it doesn't mean she can't do hurtful, abusive things.
@Craftastrophies The idea of a loving family as a nuclear family is one that really bothers me. The phrase "let's start a family" for having kids… I don't know. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I'm pretty sure that childless people have families. And by that I don't mean their parents, but legit — family is family. Sometimes family is chosen, and sometimes it is your spouse/partner/lover, and sometimes your family is your weird array of cousins and you're oddly close. But why does having babies seem to equate with having a "real" family?
@S. Elizabeth Yes, this!
Growing a human is not the only/fastest/easiest/surest way to make a family. I'm already IN a family (all of those kinds you mention), and it took and takes a lot of work. That is work you should be putting into your child, too, it's not like you pop one out and it will love you forever, no matter what. You have more of a chance, but it's not like it's easier than building family in other ways.
@S. Elizabeth that bugs me so much – when people ask 'when are you going to start a family'
i'm quite happy with my family of two at the moment.
maybe when we can move out of the apartment we're in, we can get a puppy.
because godforbid you'd say to my childless (not by choice) aunt that her and her husband of 30+ years weren't a family.
@sparkles I have queer chosen family along with my (huge, Polish-American, loud) biological family. Thanksgiving includes going to my parents' house for Thursday and spending the weekend in New England with a house full of queers. They are both "family dinner." The idea that getting married and popping out a kid means "starting a family" is such a weird concept. I have a big family, there's absolutely no need for me to start a new one.
Granted, maybe this is cultural? When my cousins get married and have babies, nobody talks about them starting a family, just making ours bigger.
@S. Elizabeth
maybe it is cultural.
granted i know that my immediate family (parents, siblings, nephew) has a very limited definition of family which does involve popping out sprogs.
But its a question I get asked it all the time, even at work.
To the point that my comment became a mini-rant, not directed at you, just the question and the insinuation that my life is incomplete as I don't have any devil spawn to call my own.
@sparkles My stock answers to that question are:
1) Did you mean to say that out loud? Oh… (last said in sad/embarrassed voice)
2) I'm waiting until they're worth more on the black market/I have more freezer space
3) Really, I only use those two on the absolute rudest people. Usually I just say 'oh, no, I can't. [partner] has had the snip'. If he's there he says 'they said we were going to the park! They lured me into the car with a Frisbee!' That usually shuts them up.
Basically, I am creeped out by people who are interested in the contents of my uterus. But yeah, that's an interesting linguistic point. I have heard my mother's side of the family (distant and cold) say 'starting a family' but I can't imagine my dad's side (loving and close, if complicated) saying that. It would be ridiculous. We're already family! A sprawling, complicated, dynamically changing but ultimately all in it together, family.
Also, I feel like my family has teirs. There are the grandparent's generation, the aunts/uncles (including family friends who we all know) and the cousins. I'm in the cousins, obviously. We're all pretty close, and we all know each other's friends. We probably wouldn't invite them to family dos, but there's this loose found-family atmosphere that I really love. I mean, a couple of us went to school together, so we all have the same points of reference, and were in each other's sibling's classes, etc. I love my/our forever friends!
@sparkles I didn't mean to say that "family" meant not popping out womb raiders. It's the way it's talked about — there's no separate little unit that's created once a kidlet is born. Yes, having kids is expected (I already broke the news to my mom that she'll have to wait for my brother to have kids), but the idea of nuclear family as the definition of family isn't all that rigid.
@sympathyforthebasementcat For many people, it's true, but only because the love you have for your kids is totally different than the love you have for your partners and friends. As it should be. To love someone else the way you love your kid would be Fucked. Up. Um, let me explain…
So, I love my daughter more than I love myself. There's nothing she could do that could cause me to stop loving her, and if she died before me, my first reaction would be to want to die myself. I'm not even being melodramatic — it's just the truth, and it's more scary than schmaltzy, actually.
I mean, who would WANT to love another person like that? To feel that way for a partner would be obsessive and self-destructive. And as much as the other members of my Inner Circle mean to me, like my best friends, my husband, and my little brother, I just don't love them with that intensity.
And that's NORMAL. They're my equals. We're all adults, mostly well-adjusted, and our love for each other depends on how we treat each other.
But your kid is not your equal in your relationship. I know this just from my own mother — we're super close, but I don't love her as much as she loves me. She loves me like I love my daughter. I can't love her back that way. Just like my daughter will never love me as much as I love her — hell, I would worry about her if she did. I'd be like, "GET OUT MORE"
It *is* condescending to tell a childless person that they won't ever know "real love" unless they have kids. It's more like, you won't know what it's like to let someone else be a total tyrant over your heart until you have kids. AND YOU SHOULDN'T.
(Disclaimer: The author is not judging anyone for how much/how little they love their parents, partners, friends, kids, whatever. Just explaining why the "you won't know real love until you have kids" line is both true and not true.)
@sympathyforthebasementcat and everyone!
Read Dear Sugar's column, "The Ghost Ship". SO GOOD. She explores the "to have kids or not" issue with such depth and compassion. http://bit.ly/ljAFtC
DEAR EVERYONE: If you aren't reading Dear Sugar yet, DO IT NOWWWWW.
Start with http://bit.ly/qbUWWY.
Then this one http://bit.ly/rqXgnw
You're welcome forever!
@Jessica Poynter@facebook Ugh, in my effort to be as clear as possible, I used too much capslock for emphasis. I'm not USually ranDOMly SHOUTY.
Also, everyone should watch this too. Short Ted-talk on parenting by the founder of Nerve.com and his wife. Quite honest and nuanced. Also, I have a crush on her. She is so regal and dignified.
http://bit.ly/tj1Egs
@sympathyforthebasementcat All that means is "You've never been high on baby fumes the way I have." And I haven't been high on PCP, either, but I'm taking a pass on that one, too.
LW1 – If you're ambivalent about kids, and your partner really wants them, I would say consider leaving your partner and find someone else who fits with you. Sacrificing your body/sanity/time/future for someone else's desires for the REST OF YOUR LIFE is maybe not a great way to have a happy relationship–and kids certainly won't ensure a happy or successful relationship. In fact, kids are huge strains on relationships and when the kids themselves are a source of conflict, things are even worse. I know it sucks to have to start over and try to find someone new, but if it were me, I'd rather do that than wonder why I'm doing all this kid-having and kid-raising just so this other person is happy. I mean, maybe you will be happy having kids, but maybe you won't.
LW2 – If your dude can't miss 25 minutes of a football game to eat a family meal, just leave him at daycare and make sure to pack him a turkey sandwich in his lunch box. He can tell you about his day when you tuck him in later.
@Andrea Grimes@facebook er, LWLast I mean, not LW2.
@Andrea Grimes@facebook I'd agree with you if she were NO on the kids, but she just seems honestly a little confused/ambivalent, and if she's still finishing up law school she's probably under 25 and that's pretty normal at that age. I think it's fine, as long as they revisit the subject between now and when they start actually having kids. If she honestly doesn't think she wants kids ever, then yeah, that's a serious value clash that's not going to become less of a problem.
@julieta I guess I would always advise people who are truly ambivalent about having kids to err on the side of caution, which is to say, they probably shouldn't. There are a lot of ambivalent-kid people out there, and maybe she could find someone who has similar concerns instead of someone who is gung-ho? I mean, also if she is like 25, she has her whole life ahead of her to find a new relationship. It seems like kind of a scary thing to already be like "I wonder if I should make this huge sacrifice that maybe I am not totally on board with?" at 25 years old, when there's a lot of boning/growing to be done in the future still.
Dear Fiance of Football Dude: Spend Thanksgiving–with its annual Lions game–with his Detroit relatives. Spend a non-football-significant holiday with your family.
I <3 football.
If not, maybe recognize that he's giving up being with his football-loving clan on a big-deal Michigan day in order to spend the holiday with you and your family. His family's Thanksgiving traditions are no less important just because you don't care about football.
@laurel "His family's Thanksgiving traditions are no less important just because you don't care about football" — I agree. They've also engaged, so it's not like this is a boyfriend she's bringing home who needs to make a good impression and nothing else — this is a holiday issue they'll probably have for both Thanksgiving and Christmas (if they're of that ilk) forever, so might as well deal with it now.
And yeah, over a 3- or 4-day weekend? A 3-hour game shouldn't be a big deal. Maybe she should find him a sports bar — if the relatives are in a city, lots of cities even have places where fans of other teams gather. That way he's not underfoot/awkwardly sitting there, he gets to do what he wants, and she gets to hang with the fam.
I do think there's a big divide on this between people who love football and are from footballing families, and people who aren't…
@laurel An excellent solution. Man, if someone told me I couldn't watch a Baltimore-Pittsburgh game, I don't think I'd want to marry that person. Granted, I'm from a football family where text messages and excited calls are flying across the country when the Ravens are playing.
@dietrich: Hey there, cowgirl! I'm the only person I know IRL who likes football. I'm the nation's loneliest sportsfan. I invented The Pedicure Quarter to cope.
Your family must have been apoplectic last Sunday.
@laurel Pedicure Quarter! The saddest quarter of all!
It's tough being a Baltimore fan trapped in Green Bay land, but at least there are a few others around. Oh my god, Sunday was amazing. My favorite part, though, was Ray Lewis explaining at the end of the game how JUST THE NIGHT BEFORE he had told Torrey Smith to position himself to receive god's blessings. Oh Ray. Who's your team?
@dietrich: No! The Pedicure Quarter (third) is the best quarter!
Ray Lewis is a madman.
My team situation is complicated. I started watching footy when living in SFran at the end of the Steve Young years and I felt like I couldn't pick the 49ers because they were doing well and I guess I was supposed to suffer first?
So I randomly selected the Colts–wait, wait, I beg you, as a Baltimore football fan, to hear me out!–knowing nothing about them, not even the midnight move, because I like horseshoes and cowgirl stuff. And boom, Peyton Manning. Whom, as I've gotten to know him, I loathe. But I loved watching Bob Sanders, Dwight Freeney, Marvin Harrison, Edgerrin James, et al., and the no-huddle was frisky and fun so it was okay, but I still had the jumping-on-the-bandwagon problem. But whatever, everyone hates them so it was kind of fun to be a fan.
Now, most of my favorite players are gone (and characterwise, Marvin Harrison is not. the. man. I. thought. he. was.) and I can't hatelove Peyton if he's not playing, so it's not as much fun. But, since they're self-immolating this season, now I can't jump off the bandwagon I shouldn't have gotten on in the first place!
So I don't know what to do. I'm back to just watching the best game that's broadcast here without knowing much about the teams and having nothing invested. My closest teams are the Cardinals, Broncos and Cowboys. I can't bear the latter two. The Cardinals are OK now that Kurt Warner has retired (and, I like red and birds, so) but I can't get excited about them and Arizona is a nightmare and their games are never broadcast here.
It would be much easier to have been born into a football family and forced to like a team forever.
@laurel Hey everybody, I have feeelings about football!
@laurel Come back to the 49ers! We will adopt you right into the family, especially since Steve Young and his whole family are awesome.
@thebestjasmine: 'Love you, 'miss you San Francisco. 'See you Sunday.
@laurel I ditched brunch recently for the Chelsea-Arsenal game and I think my friends might still resent me? But it was worth it.
@laurel yet ANOTHER reason we need a hairpin forum: a place for us to come together on sundays and thursdays and mondays and watch football "together." I have no football fan friends, and, damn, do i miss that.
@candybeans: I await your directions. Shall we use the week recap thingy as an open thread for now?
@laurel Ah I am probably coming back to this waaaay too late, but I had to attend several lectures yesterday… anyway, I forgive your Colts-loving ways, but I'm actually old enough to remember the whole leaving-in-the-middle-of-the-night thing. Baltimore has always been a very football-oriented town (don't believe those who think we bleed for the Orioles; they're only good for the fun of yelling "O!" really loud during the Star Spangled Banner), and even though I was tiny when that happened, I still remember the fallout. The Ravens are just wholeheartedly, impossibly loved in Bmo, especially because they're kind of scrappy and thuggish, just like Baltimorons. In fact, please enjoy this thoroughly crappy song about it, which kind of captures Baltimore's annoying yet endearing DIY aesthetic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRJgPzLCBNw
But it's hard for me to imagine watching without that investment, because it's so tied to the city where I grew up, that I love. So I am now going to recommend that you cheer for the Ravens! But that doesn't solve your weird market problem– totally have that since moving to the Midwest for school. The Cowboys and the Broncos really do suck, so I feel your pain. Let's just watch football together and express our feelings!
@dietrich
AAaaaaaaaaablackandpurpleblackandpurpleblackandpurple! So great. Is that the foot of a Johnny Unitas statue they're rubbing?
The Ravens are among the few teamsperhapsluckyenoughtobegracedwithmyfandom, mostly because they're named for an Edgar Allan Poe story–I mean, no other team can claim a mascot as cool and subversive as that. But also because I like your running backs (miss you Willis McGahee!).
We do need a lady-leaning gameday forum somewhere. Maybe over at Grantland? Please don't make me go back to Deadspin.
@laurel Ladies, I have been thinking for months about how much I wish there was an Awl/Hairpin-y kind of sports site, with intelligent posts and cool commenters. The Deadspin posts have actually been getting better, because they have some really smart writers (in addition to the terrible posts, not instead of them), but the comments are just unrelentingly stupid. Fingers crossed for The Classical, maybe? But I don't know if they have any women on staff. Grantland, while it has some great people, is run by proud misogynist Bill Simmons, so who knows about that (and also it doesn't allow comments).
@candybeans YES TO THE FORUM. I have so many feelings about football that I would love to share together.
My Thanksgiving situation is almost identical. What is with Michigan football? Cripes it's like the second coming every Saturday.
This Dude is a little too Gavin McInness for me.
Ooh, I likes the shout-out to the ol' "pinky up the asshole." Don't ever do this without first asking him whether he's okay with pinkies up the asshole, but if he IS okay with it, results are FOOLPROOF.
@werewolfbarmitzvah i've never done this, i've never done anything with the asshole, and i have no idea how to start or get there. plus, i'm very little, and my beau is much bigger so i don't know that i could reach, unless i were sucking him off? any tips or advice? and for some reason, i feel a weird sort of squickiness about the bunghole – do people get over that sort of thing? I WANT TO BE ADVENTUROUS TOO!
@teenie Okay, so it’s probably not the most ideal party trick to bust out during actual penetration (due to the awkward reaching issues that you mentioned), but during any other type of sexual activities (I hesitate to say “foreplay,” because once you do this, the deed gets done so abruptly that there is not much in the way of “afterplay”) it works very well. You don’t necessarily have to use your pinky, either; I’ve typically used my index finger. Be gentle and make sure that your nails are short. In the heat of the moment, gently slide your finger maybe just an inch or so into the rear exit, and with your fingertip pointed toward his front side (where the prostate is), make a slight come-hither motion with the finger, as though you’re beckoning to someone you see inside his rectum. In my experience, in less than 60 seconds he will burst forth with the most hilariously over-the-top porntastic explosion you’ve ever seen. Not every guy is going to be comfortable with this move, but if he expresses interest in it, that’s how you proceed.
@werewolfbarmitzvah (is it gross or am i a weirdo for feeling strange about it?)
@teenie Nah, I don’t think it’s weird that you would feel gross about it – among the friends I’ve talked to about anal-related issues (such fun conversation topics!), they seem split about 50/50 between people who think it’s fine and people who get grossed out simply by the thought of it. It all comes down to personal comfort level. Personally, I’ve never really been grossed out by it, at least when it comes to fingers down there or even all out anal sex. What DOES make me a little squicked out is the idea of tongue-to-anus contact, which just seems like a recipe for disaster, and yet…one day in college my then-bf was performing some standard oral sex on me, and suddenly his tongue switched to the back door without warning, and even though I thought I’d be freaked out by that, it was one of the most unexpectedly incredible sensations I’ve ever felt. In your case, if you’re feeling weird about anal stuff but are curious about trying it, I’d suggest starting with baby steps, like just gently touching your finger around the OUTSIDE part of the anus, where you can be pretty sure that there’s no messy stuff (and honestly I’ve never encountered any messy stuff on the inside either, though I’m sure it’s totally possible). And if you eventually get comfy working with the outer part of the anus, you might be able to get more comfortable with the idea of going for the inner part. (THE HAIRPIN: WHERE TMI DOES NOT EXIST. Feel free to wash your eyeballs out if this comment has scarred you for life!)
@werewolfbarmitzvah maybe it's time for a Hairpin sex advice column? since we are, truly, so very good at crossing TMI boundaries.
(PS: thanks for the advice. I think Teenie is going to try something new this weekend)
@teenie Hah, glad to be of service!
@werewolfbarmitzvah @teenie Is it weird that I would be totally down to try this, but only if I were wearing latex gloves?
(Not because I have a latex fetish, but because I am taking a Microbiology class right now and coliform bacteria under my fingernails equals eeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwww.)
@wee_ramekin i think i have your answer: finger cots! http://bit.ly/vgDauu
@werewolfbarmitzvah
Oh my GOSH. I've been composing an Ask A Dude letter in my head for weeks about "how do I put stuff in a guy's butt" but I didn't want to take up important decision making space. Thank you!! I'm so excited to try. And my right index fingernail broke at work today, how fortuitous!
@Inkcrafter Aha, it's an OMEN! The universe demands that you try out some butt play! (I'm beginning to wonder whether my new legacy here at the Hairpin is going to be Weird Lady with the Fingers Up Everybody's Butts.)
@werewolfbarmitzvah you should seriously head a hairpin sex advice column. Edith!!
@werewolfbarmitzvah
I'm gonna try to put stuff in his butt tonight! Aaaah so excited
Note: his sex drive is much lower, so I don't always get to have sex, but if I DO, then BUTTS, and I'll report back. If not, FUTURE BUTTS.
@werewolfbarmitzvah This is perfect. I am also a fan of fingers in butts (ahahaah, that looks so WRONG typed out). Some of my partners have not been, soyeah, definitely ask before even exploring. Some partners have been down with, like… rubbing, but not actual insertion, and that actually works pretty well, too. I can definitely see being squicked out by it, but it's not as gross as you think it's going to be. Just don't touch anything else with your hand until you can wash it (thoroughly). I would totally endorse gloves. Or just slip a condom on your finger – that way it's lubed, too.
I am also not down with mouth to butts. To the extent where if someone did it to me, I would be way too weirded out to enjoy it, even if it were amazing. I don't have many boundaries, but that's one of them. We all have something, I guess.
@wee_ramekin I am also taking Microbiology right now – the bacteria thing really icks me out. i worry that i'll be holding my finger out like it's possessed until i can scrub it up, which isn't that sexy.
@teenie I've had partners do that (hold out possessed finger) and to be honest, I appreciated that I didn't have to worry about it getting on things, which is even less sexy.
Jesus, I am grouchy.
LW#3 – if he is your BFF/life parnter/love of your life/soul mate – why the eff are you asking a faceless stranger how to have a direct conversation with him about, gulp, your future together.
Also, and I don't mean to sound completely like an asshole, but do you have any plans for your own life that might be affected by his SEAL program? Were those plans a part of his decision-making to enter the SEAL program? Kind of seems like no, and I think there are a lot of answers in that no. Is all I am saying.
LW#4 – Jesus, it is his vacation, too. Holidays aren't just for forced family bonding, they are also for recharging and getting time off to do what you want. He wants to watch football. You want to shoot the shit with your family. No one is wrong in this scenario.
If your family is judgey about that, don't go to your family's for Thanksgiving. Or go by yourself and let him watch football and eat something other than home cooked turkey. And plan a weekend with the family during the off-season or something.
@karion A-fucking-men.
@karion Your response for LW#3 is exactly what I wonder any time ANYONE writes to an advice column about a significant other.
@karion Thank you! If you're grouchy, then so am I. I'm not married but I am friends with an amazing married couple that have a fantastic relationship. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that they aren't afraid to attend family holiday functions BY THEMSELVES! *gasp*
They live 2,000 miles from their families so it's important that they are each able to see who they want to see on their very-short vacations. She visits her family for Christmas, and he visits his family at Christmas. Neither family has ever had an issue with it!
@QuiteAimable Thank you! My husband and I are each going to our own families' houses this Thanksgiving (I have a complex family visitation roster…), and…that's OK! I have had more than one person look at me askance when they found out that we'll be apart (for all of 3 DAYS people!), as if there's something seriously wrong. It happens to be a plan/schedule that allowed us both to do what's a priority for us. Jeesh.
@Ophelia Good for you both!!
@karion I think you're exactly right on the issue of his becoming a SEAL. That's a huge thing that could define her life, and she's seeming to consider it her duty to let it. If she's absolutely certain that's what she wants then that's great, but it's, a lot like the question of having kids, something she shouldn't compromise on.
In my opinion, I mean- I sound kind of preachy. Sorry, LW#3!
@Ophelia I have only been with my partner for 18 months. We don't live together, he has kids, and we both have separate lives. Yet already, if I turn up to a family thing without him (usually because he has the kids) I get concerned cries of 'where's S!?!' Um, living his own life? No WAY am I inviting his kids to my family's crazy get togethers. I've met them, like, six times. I am not in a relationship with his kids, which I get is weird to some, but that's my relationship.
Anyway, the point is, yes, I prefer to do things with my partner because I like him, but jeez, I am still able to process oxygen when he's not in the room. We don't share lungs or anything.
@QuiteAimable Jesus, particularly when there are FOUR SETS OF THEM. That's not family visiting, that's a marathon. I think separate family visits are entirely in order.
I don't know if this helps or not on the kid thing, but: In the grand scheme of your life/your life as a family, the really obnoxious stage you're referring to is a small one. Obviously kids are a HUGE responsibility, for life, and every stage is frustrating in its own way, but if what you're most afraid of are the annoyances like tantrums in public, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't last all that long. (Then you have teenagers and yearn for the days when strangers staring at your screaming kids was your biggest problem.)
If there are other issues — like you're fundamentally uncertain if you want to have a person or two or three dependent on you for at least 18 years, or you'd rather be able to work/travel/whatever without worrying about dependents, or you don't think your boyfriend would be a good/equitable partner, or whatever the philosophical issue might be — then that's something you need to think through. But if what you're concerned about is the undeniable annoyingness of the early years, keep in mind it doesn't last forever.
@julieta This was a very well reasoned response.
LW#1-The Dude's advice is way off the mark. If you are having doubts that kids are for you, those should be explored before you decide one way or the other. And you should definitely be talking about this with your guy. Maybe you'll decide to have kids and maybe you won't. But it should be YOUR decision-not society's, not your guy's, and certainly not A Dude's.
@Hooplehead I was going to say this, but to be fair she does say she's been talking about it with her partner. The actual question is just about his perspective on whether it's worth it.
But also: yes. I 100% agree with you.
Just had to say:
"Yes, my balls are amazingly talented." YOUR balls? YOUR BALLS?
Try your wife's vagina. And uterus. Man, she's the one with talent.
@rasko That was one of the times I shuddered.
Oh LW4, my husband is an Ohio State fan and a Lions fan and we have fought this fight in so. many. incarnations. Most recently on a family vacation where we went way out of our way to do this one specific thing and he wanted to ditch the one specific thing to watch a random September game. It did not fly. Oh, no. Thanksgiving is not a problem for us. Both our families are pro-football on Thanksgiving.
That said, Ohio State – Michigan is a really big deal and you should let him watch it. Make him lose the Lion's game, though. Everyone needs to give a little, y'know?
@Laura Witt@twitter All of these comments are making me ridiculously happy that neither my boyfriend or I (or either of our families) give a shit about football. There's one neverending battle averted!
Now if we could just get over his enormous love of house music…
I'm glad to see my fellow Pinners recognize the sanctity of Michigan/OSU. Every religion has its own holidays…
@fishiefishfish Totally. I'm not a Michigan or OSU fan but I am a member of a particularly, umm, dedicated fanbase (go cats!), so I get it. Maybe they just should have done Thanksgiving with his folks?
@fishiefishfish Yup. I've apparently lived in Ohio long enough to have reacted with nothing but confusion to that part of the question…you don't tell an alum that they shouldn't watch the OSU/Michigan game. It's just not done.
As someone who has given a lot of thought over the past few years to having vs. not having kids, I can tell you that having children never makes sense on paper. No matter how hard you try. In fact, the more you think about it, the more it sounds like a terrible idea and a bad financial investment.
But then there is the part where it would be kind of amazing to make a person with the person that you love more than anything, and that little person will be made out of parts of you and him, and you will love THEM more than anything.
And that's what gets me! Sometimes.
The problem is, you don't really know if you made the right decision until you've made it and you're living it. And there are probably really awesome parts and really terrible parts no matter which way you go, so it might not even matter. LIFE! And then you die.
@punkahontas yes, you always die. argh!
@punkahontas
A:
1. You don't live your life on paper.
2. It's not the safe choice.
3. Either I'm lucky or it's by far the best thing I ever did.
@punkahontas The problem is, you don't really know if you made the right decision until you've made it and you're living it.
as a nervy girl who straight-up hates uncertainty and also a lady who wants children in the soonish future (and who has much-younger siblings and a child-centered job, so has some sense of the myriad ways tiny people can trash your outfit/day/life), my strategy for judging the kids decision is the same strategy i've developed for all crazy-giant Life Choices: THE OUTCOME IS NOT THE POINT (necessarily). there are always going to be (SO MANY) more uncontrollable and unforeseeable variables than easily controlled and foreseen variables. so the judgement to be made is: "did i make this decision as thoughtfully as i could, in good faith and with as much knowledge about myself and the situation AS WAS AVAILABLE AT THE TIME?"
if the answer is yes, then it wasn't a "bad" decision, even if the kid you make as a result sucks or the kid you don't make as a result is one you miss later. you did what you could with what you had. that's all you've got.
@superfluousconsonants You're right, "the right decision" was a poor choice of words. I'm definitely familiar with the "Make the best decision you can with the information available" school of thought.
But what I was getting at is that no matter which way you go, sometimes it will be great and sometimes it will suck. Sometimes your kid will be awesome, sometimes it will be terrible. Sometimes not having a kid will be awesome, sometimes it will be terrible. That's just the way life goes.
Um the dude here obvs doesn't understand football. The Green Bay v Detroit game on THXgiving is tradition and is the first time this season both teams play each other. This is WAY important to many folks from Michigan and of course EVERYONE is Wisco. Packers gon kill em though.
@Sarah Librarian
yep. The Pack is doing pretty great this year. 
LW#1, another thing to think about is that sometimes wonderful men who want kids really just want to be the father, so it's an easier choice for him. They still expect you to carry the more traditional mother role, even if you keep working. You'll have to clean more, to take care of the kid more, do midnight feedings more, go to recitals, games and plays more, grocery shop more, meet with teachers more, help with stupid third grade projects more, and everything else – not to mention, you're the one that has to grow it in your body. So you might think giving kids a chance is fair to him, but you really can't know if he's going to be fair to you and take an equal role in raising the children until you have them. Plenty of otherwise awesome men never step up to that plate because they don't have to. Don't have kids unless you really want them for yourself, not just to please him; otherwise, some day you will find yourself wearing horrible jeans and covered in Elmer's glue and Cheerios wondering where your life went wrong, while your husband is working late or watching some awful Tim Allen show.
@sympathyforthebasementcat This is a good point. Some otherwise wonderful men have a real blind spot about this. Recently a friend of mine got pregnant by a guy who did not want a relationship with her, but urged her to have the baby anyway. So he could be a dad.
That's an extreme example, but it really burned me up, especially since she was in love with the dude.
@sympathyforthebasementcat Good point. Might be worth asking her dude if he wants to be a stay-at-home dad, and, if not, if he's cool with you working full time (or whatever). Just get that conversation going as part of the "should we have kids" conversation.
@sympathyforthebasementcat I just registered to agree x1000. I don't have the itchy womb, think a lot of kids are annoying, etc., but the distribution of labor is what really, really puts me in the no kids camp for now. My husband is pretty great, but chores/appointments/events really aren't his thing. Plus, the jeans. My god, the jeans.
@sympathyforthebasementcat Holy cow, this is one of the most insightful comments on this entire thread. My husband, who prior to the birth of our children I would have characterized as a feminist and completely my equal, has loved being a father so much he tears up just thinking about it and talks about parenthood almost exactly like the Married Dude. And it's not that I haven't been happy to have our children, but it's been so much more complicated for me – we both work similar jobs, but I went part time to hang with the kidlets (which I've enjoyed more than I thought I would) while his career has ramped up, requiring him to work long stress-filled hours and travel. His career now is where we both thought we'd be at this point before we had kids, plus he has these two amazing kids in his life that he gets to interact with largely free of complications like unloading and loading the dishwasher everyday, laundry, and the endless buying of socks, underwear, food, and everything else 4 people need on a daily basis. So for him, he's in the same position he would have been without kids, but he gets the love and adoration of his clean, well-fed, amazing kids. On the other hand, I work part time and am in charge of all the drugerous details of child raising that I never, ever thought about before we had kids, and am present for all the squabbles, tears, Cheerios stuck to the floor, vomiting, etc., that people without kids tend to get squicked out by.
So. Complicated.
@sympathyforthebasementcat I think it's a safe bet that any man who wants kids probably doesn't want to be the mother… apart form A Married Dude who apparently gave birth to one of his, that's definitely not normal.
First of all, I cannot believe there are guys out there who are more afraid of pills than of STABBING THEMSELVES IN THE DICK.
Secondly – Kids! Blech! A huge chunk of my relationships ended because I don't want kids (or because I was still in the "I'm not sure, but I can't promise I want them" stage). Granted, I didn't have 5 years tied up with those fellows. But I think you have to be honest about the fact that you can't promise you want them. You don't know yet, and that's fine, but he needs to have that information.
And to the SEAL couple – No one has really suggested this so maybe I'm nuts, but if you really do want to go with him, maybe just go ahead and get married on paper? Go to the courthouse, don't make a big thing about it, just so you can get the benefits from the military. Then when you're actually ready to be "really married," have a reception and a celebration and all that crap. I mean, it's basically like getting married sooner than you'd like so you can get on his health insurance or something. It's not ideal, but it seems like *not* doing this is throwing away a great opportunity because you're sentimental about what a legal marriage means.
@KeLynn Not a SEAL here, but a Navy guy. The complicating factor in my marriage situation that my intended was in the Navy too. And we were both due to transfer, and I knew absolutely for certain that I was going to Newport, RI (for some courses) and then probably to Norfolk. So wife-to-be calls her detailer, and mentions that she's engaged and would like to get stationed with me… and the detailer says words to the effect of: "engaged? As in not married yet? Too bad, you're going to Wales".
We got married by a justice of the peace three days later (we did the big church wedding a few months later). She calls the detailer back, says oh by the way I'm married now, and you'll be giving me orders somewhere closer to my spouse. Detailer was pissed but did cut orders to Charlotte, NC, and after a year she and I both transferred to Norfolk.
As pointed out above: 1) chances are very good he will not complete the BUD/S program, which is extremely, extremely difficult and has a very high failure rate. You both need to be ready for that. 2) You need to be discussing all this with him – you both need to be in agreement as to the plan. 3) It might actually be in your interest to wait until his training is complete (one way or the other) before joining him – he's going to have very little time to be with you anyway. Might be best for him to focus on his work for a while.
As a student at the University of Michigan and a Lions fan as well, I would say give him one of the games. The OSU game is LITERALLY the biggest game of the season for Michigan and Lions are doing well for the first time in a very long time. I feel like you could maybe convince him out of the Lions game with the whole "spending time with family!" thing. It might be more missable.
How long are you staying at your dad's house for Thanksgiving? Wednesday to Sunday? Also, was he planning to watch the UM game with friends or would you guys still be out visiting family?
I don't know. Maybe I'm just very Michigan-biased and very much understand where he's coming from. My conclusions from my convoluted ramblings:
1) Family is important to both of you.
2) Football is important to him.
3) Maybe two football games is too much?
4) Maybe letting him watch the UM vs OSU game would be the compromise?
and literally, the game will be over by 4 PM! (Promise.)
While I absolutely agree that, while on a 3-4 day vacation, a few hours isn't that big of a deal and quite necessary for mental stability, what I'm reading is that the game, or a game, might fall during the actual Thanksgiving meal. Granted, my family full of olds eats really early, so that might be projecting.
I don't think it's okay to blow off the actual Thanksgiving dinner to sit in front of the television, no matter which game it is. And for full disclosure purposes, I am a football nerd. I would have been totally aggravated if I had to do family stuff during the LSU – Alabama game. It's a tough spot to be in.
@Carrot Cake See, my thing with this is that there is no set in stone time for a Thanksgiving dinner to be, so why can't the time of the family Thanksgiving dinner move so that he can watch the Lions game? It's one Thursday, there's a lot of cooking, a lot of family, lots of stuff going on, he's part of her family, the game is important to him, it starts at 12:30 EST, why can't dinner start at 4?
@thebestjasmine Because he is a guest in their house. Because he isn't even a member of the family yet, and asking his hosts to change their plans, which are not made randomly, because of football, which, if they do not like, they might actually dislike. My mother would look at him like he was fucking crazy if he suggested it was all the same to move the time of a meal that she will be spending the whole day cooking. She would never forget it. Even if he eventually redeemed himself, if would be a shit-poor first impression.
@junkle Well, I'd say that's pretty poor treatment by a mom to her new son in law, then. If Thanksgiving football is part of his own family tradition, and he's sacrificing being with his family in order to make his fiance happy on Thanksgiving, then why can't they give him this? I cook Thanksgiving dinner for my family every year, and it is one of my favorite days of the year, and there are often new family members who come in with things that they want. Thanksgiving is a time for family and to embrace everyone, why can't her family embrace what he wants too?
@thebestjasmine If fiancée can't behave like a good guest and a grownup for one day in order to start on the right foot with her family then he's a brat. And moving dinner time is crazy talk.
@citKat If her family doesn't care about him having a good Thanksgiving, then they're not a really nice family to marry into. And seriously, why is moving dinner time crazy talk? It's that hard to compromise for people on family traditions?
@citKat Moving dinnertime is crazy talk? I would need Prozac probably 3 days a week. Seriously, moving dinner time is not that big a deal.
@LW1: I felt very iffy about having kids (actually, up until 30, I was dead-set against it and then "maybe but probably not" after that. I was right with you with the whole "kids in a store being awful. Nope, not for me," thing. And my mom had my sister when I was almost 16, and I had a hand in raising her. That was the best birth control pretty much EVER, and I felt very strongly about never having kids. My husband was, I would say, 90% against having one. There is a long story about how we ended up having one that I won't get into, but it's the absolute greatest thing that's every happened to me (and him). Just yesterday, he said "Thank you SO MUCH for making us do this. I'll be forever grateful to you for pushing me to have the most incredible person I've ever met." (our daughter. And I did push. HARD. Again, long story) Yep… the whole "I had no idea I could love another person so much," etc… cliches are right on target. Having Z (my daughter) is the single best thing I have ever done. And I've done some awesome things! I used to (inwardly) roll my eyes when people would be all "Bla bla bla it's so fulfilling bla bla bla Love bla bla bla."
And, I need to point out that watching other people's kids is totally and completely different. I love my sister a lot, but I never felt about her the way I do about my daughter. It's not the same.
Is it hard work and awful at times? Absolutely! But the "good" times are way more plentiful and tip the scales into awesomeness. Having a kid is hard, definitely, but it's also really really REALLY fun!! I mean SUPER fun. I'm constantly shocked by how fun it is, actually.
@Gilgongo That's great, but that doesn't mean that having kids is the right choice for everyone. Those of us who choose not to have them hear these stories every day, and it's pretty invalidating of our choice to constantly have to sit through them.
Having a kid is truly like walking around with your heart on the outside. It is wonderful and excruciating all at once. They will humble the ever living fuck out of you, make you doubt every single decision you make, cause you to weep so hard and drive you up the wall. And yet???? That same child will crack you up with their weird sense of humor, teach you all kinds of awesome things, (while you teach them awesome things) and make your day in the most wild and wonderful ways. But yeah, some days it is gonna suck good and hard. When you have been up half the night with them, when they puke/poop all over you three times over, when they scream at you, throw a tantrum because you won't let them live on a diet of cookies and Curious George cartoons. But they grow and you grow and it ends up being pretty okay.
It helps a lot to have a good partner. My husband and I laughed so hard when our babies were brand-new. The ridiculousness of certain situations and the support of the other person helped a lot. We would tell each other nearly every day, "Thank you so much for your help" and "You are doing great"
@gfrancie You said it perfectly. My daughter makes me laugh ever day.
@gfrancie I just want to note that this is *your* experience. It has also been my experience as well, but I do not think it is by any means universal. I think we do women and men (and rational decision making) a real disservice to think that just because we may have experienced parenthood in a certain way, everyone else will too.
@finguns Oh I completely agree. And I don't think having kids is for everyone. I tend to lean toward telling people, "you can have a totally awesome life sans kids. It isn't for everyone nor should it be."
UGH. Nobody can convince anyone else to or not to have kids!! Stop asking, everybody!!! You're not going to know until you try, so you have to go with worst case scenario. If you don't feel like you could (happily/sanely) handle the commitment and all the money and emotions and crazy unimaginable stress that goes with it, don't do it. For me, it was -nope-, I'm enough with the stuff I've got going on in my life, and I worry about what the world will be like 25 years from now when my imaginary kid would be moving back in with me because of the economy/some addiction/nuclear war. I can find things to make me happy/laugh/cry/ care for/ love that I will not need to pop out of my vagina.
@selasphorus LW1 didn't ask if she should or shouldn't have kids. She asked Married Dude if all the cliches were true. Married Dude said they were. The comments say for some, yes. For some, no.
For me, the cliches were true (and I was pretty virulently anti-having-a-kid for most of my life), but I would never EVER try to convince someone to have kids.
My husband has never once missed an England World Cup game – not once – to the point that this past year, we had plans to go wine tasting for a good friend's birthday and there was a bit of a quandary as to what to do about the England game. He wasn't going to miss it. Instead of him staying home to watch it (and feel bad about the birthday thing), he came to the wine tasting and watched the entire game on a cellphone. Yeah, he wasn't as present as normal, but he got to watch the game and celebrate the friend's birthday.
So, my advice – compromise. I agree with most of the posts saying he should pick a game, but she should also let her family know that he has important games to watch and 'please don't be offended if he disappears to watch them'. Because if you really love someone, you make compromises (this goes for both players in the relationship).
@Bambi Was your friend OK with your husband watching a cell phone for the whole time? I have to say that sounds pretty rude to me. If it were my birthday, I'd prefer for the game-watcher to leave early or come late. Or just stay home altogether if the match is that important to him; we could always make plans to hang out another day.
The Thanksgiving thing: football is enough of a Thanksgiving tradition that I don't think it would be out of place for him to watch at least some of one or both of the games. He should take periodic breaks, though, to check in with the family.
I used to try to explain to people who were on the fence about kids how wonderful it is to have some, but you know what? If you really don't think you want them, why should I try to change your mind. The world already has plenty of people. Don't have kids. If you do you'll regret it. The little snots.
I'm finding all the "I have kids and love it," "I have friends who have kids and hate it," "I don't have kids and love it," comments to be pretty interesting.
It's making me think. WHY do some people love having kids and some don't. (I already totally understand the "don't want to have kids," already since I felt that way until I accidentally got pregnant. Then everything changed.)
I'm guessing that it's:
a) Expectations. Some people have kids expecting it to be easier than it is. Expect to feel this massive love for them, and then maybe they don't. Or expect their kid to change them as a person. Personally, I knew how hard it would be already and in fact it's slightly easier than I thought it would be. I did expect to feel the massive love, and I was worried about not feeling it right away with my daughter until I read that was totally normal. Now, I feel MORE than the massive love than I expected to feel. I'm constantly amazed by how great being a mom is. Totally unexpected.
b) Your partner. If your partner isn't helping out with the diapers, dishes, cleaning, watching the kid, then yeah… it's going to suck. And this might be something you don't find out until after the kid is born.
c) Age. It's GOTTA be harder the younger you are and how much "living" you did before the kid was born. I can't even imagine having a kid under the age of 35. My cousin started at 18 and has never looked back… so I guess you never know.
d) How maternal you are. Some people I know wanted 3 or 4 kids from the time that THEY were little kids. My cousin has 4 kids and is in heaven. I can't even imagine. I've never been particularly maternal (I mean, I see a cute baby and am all "Awwwwwww!" but that's about it). I don't want to watch other people's kids. I feel a little awkward around them. And, yet, I feel incredibly INCREDIBLY maternal towards mine.
e. Money. Always easier to have kids when you have money. And a flexible (or no) job.
What else?
@Gilgongo Thought of another one:
f. Your kid's temperament. I'm really REALLY lucky that my kid is healthy, SUPER happy most of the time, and slept through the night almost from about 4 months old. Quite honestly, I can't say for 100% that I wouldn't feel differently about her if she was always crying and waking up in the middle of the night. When she's pissy or not feeling well, it's awful!
@Gilgongo See, I wish these were the kinds of discussions that people had surrounding children. This is so much more useful for those of us who are on the fence than "As soon as you pass that baby through your vagina, you forget the pain and all you feel is looooooooove!!!". Thank you for your comments!
@Gilgongo I think g) would be the relationship you have with your own parents/family. I am an only child of fairly elderly parents who were lovely people, but both very anxious and risk-averse. My mum in particular drives me crazy with her worrying, mostly because I have turned out *exactly the same*. I would hate to inflict that on a child. I knew when I was a teenager that I would never want children and all these years later I still don't. (Too late now anyway!). I am very lucky, always having been so absolutely sure about it. I also don't think my mum was particularly maternal (she mostly worried about other people thinking she was bringing me up wrong) so it could be genetic too.
I remember having a discussion about kids at a workplace, and the following things were said to me:
"You'll change your mind when you're older."
"Don't your parents want to be grandparents?"
"You haven't met the right man yet." [Yes I had, and we're still together after 23 years.]
and "Just think about all those poor women who can't have children!" [Yes, and just think about those poor people with no legs - I don't see you running any marathons.]
I just have to say, this is the first year (in way too long) that we can say that the Lions game is not miss-able! Two winning teams with playoff aspirations + longtime rivalry + the chance someone might shove a coach at the end = MUST WATCH TV.
I'm feeling lucky my family tradition is football.
@Kinloch I am super nervous about Thanksgiving as I am going to a friend's house for dinner, and I don't know if they watch the games. I have been a GB fan since I was 2 years old on my daddy's knee.
I am polite enough not to ask to watch if everyone is doing something else, but man, I hope they watch the game!
ugh, babies. ugh, sports.
@MalPal Agreed. All I'm taking away from this is I'm so glad my dude doesn't give a crap about football.
What?? The answer to LW1 pisses me off. Anywhere else on the web I would expect this "babies are magical, rah rah, it's all worth it" BS, but here?? You have got to be kidding me. How that question was answered with complete disregard for the fact that some people just don't want kids is just unbelievable stupid. Being childfree is a legitimate choice, and any intelligent publication/site for women should not be posting this kind of crap.
@Hanna Metsis@twitter Uhhh… she actually asked for his opinion on the matter, and he gave it. Yes, some people don't want kids (more power to them). Some do. Do you really mean to say that women shouldn't even HEAR that some people think having kids is magical?
What?? The answer to LW1 pisses me off. Anywhere else on the web I would expect this "babies are magical, rah rah, it's all worth it" BS, but here?? You have got to be kidding me. How that question was answered with complete disregard for the fact that some people just don't want kids is just unbelievable stupid and makes me think less of this site.
i love sports, my partner love sports. in our household christmas is known as boxing day test eve (there's a legendary cricket match which starts on boxing day that we always watch)
this quite often clashes with my parents boxing day lunch (a cricket test match is 5 days long, it clashes)
luckily my parents love me (and SO) enough to know that if we turn up for boxing day lunch, we will watch the cricket, and if there is a wicket whilst we're at the table we will politely excuse ourselves to watch the replays.
My parents are very non-sports people and can never understand why i missed both their 50th (due to sports-watching commitments [which i had informed them of months in advance])
Sports are big in my household.
The great thing about having kid/kids is that you get to ask yourself every single day the "Is this even worth it?" question. Forever. Not just before they grow up and leave home. So the question will never be answered. Is the bullet point you should take away from this.
Eventually, however, you can teach them to wash dishes and fetch you drinks from the fridge. And if you're lucky, like I am, you have one that is a constant source of entertainment. But I still get to ask the "Is this worth it?" question every day, and every day it's a different answer.
@kayjay I feel like, no matter what variety of choice you make, you revisit it every day. I am resigning myself to checking in every time I see someone else's baby to make sure I don't regret not having one. I suspect there's no way to avoid the fact that making one choice closes off others, and you only get one life, so that sucks.
But I am really relieved to hear that people on the other side of the 'kid divide' do that too.
@Craftastrophies Most of my parent friends are holding tight to the "I don't regret a second of it" mantra of having children, but I have to wonder if they're being completely honest. Because while I won't go as far as to say that I regret having a child, I will definitely admit to wishing I had done things much differently (waiting until I was older, not getting entangled/married to the sperm donor douche who hit me and terrorized me when we were together, etc.), and occasionally flirting with, "Man I wish I had just a teensy more disposable income but this damn kid demands to be fed EVERY DAY."
I don't know. Maybe they ARE being honest and I'm just a big whiny malcontent. I'm probably that last thing, anyway. All I will say is that choosing not having kids is DEFINITELY okay in my book.
@kayjay WEll, I'm suspicious of it because in my child-free life, there are plenty of things I… well, not regret exactly. But wish had been different? Think with hindsight about ways I could have done them better? Not kid-related things, just those logistical things you mention like money and time and wasting time on people who didn't deserve it (I'm sorry you had to deal with that, it sucks a lot.)
I mean, I guess I like the 'is it worth it' thing better because there are lots of things I have done that were godawful but worth it. I'd even say my dad's death – while I would take it back in a heartbeat – was 'worth it' in some way because of the way it gave me strength and will to deal with my abusive mother, and showed me my strong points, and made me grow, etc. I can't ever say I'm GLAD about it in the way one is hopefully glad about one's children, but still. And, I mean, my older friends have kids and are really honest about the bits that suck, and yet still love it to the point where they sort of subtly try to make me see the error of my ways. I take it because they're Family and they're just trying to spread the joy, but… sigh. You know?
NEED MORE PEEP-RELATED ANSWERS PLZ.
Currently dating awesome amazing guy. We are both equally inexperienced (we're number 2! we're number 2!). He finishes way too quickly — like "in 60 seconds or less" too quickly. Also sometimes his erection goes away before we really even get started. He is apologetic about it and he's awesome about making sure that I finish the race either way. I don't want to make him feel bad about it and anyway, bodies are weird and don't always do what we want them to do but I think we'd both like the race to last a little longer for him.
Sooo I guess what I'm asking is…is there anything *I* can do? Or should do? Or shouldn't? Help!
@anonymoose I think it depends on your guy's attitude– is he open to you making any attempts of getting him hard again? I've been with guys who had an issue from time to time, but they got it back up again right away with, um, help. HOWEVER, I've also been with dudes who would become distressed at any attempts to help? So in regard to that, just assess his attitude to figure out if you should *do* anything.
And for the finishing-too-quickly, does he last longer the second time? Like, maybe he'll last longer after he's already busted one out? Otherwise, there's not much to do to fix that (in my experience) except him slowing down his thrusts & whatnot.
I feel like I'm late to this thread, but I just read all the comments & there is a serious lack of response to the LW dealing with erection issues from her men. I just want to say that if you're only looking for FWB action, then there is NO reason to deal with dudes who don't get hard AT ALL? That's not the norm! I completely understand an issue every now & then, if I know the dick to have been perfectly functional other times. But not being able to get hard ever, at all? What.
Lady #1, read Dear Sugar's column, "The Ghost Ship". SO GOOD. She explores the "to have kids or not" issue with such depth and compassion. http://bit.ly/ljAFtC
DEAR EVERYONE: If you aren't reading Dear Sugar yet, DO IT NOWWWWW.
Start with http://bit.ly/qbUWWY.
Then this one http://bit.ly/rqXgnw
You're welcome forever!
I love Dear Sugar! She's great.
"While we (yes, we)"
NO NOT WE.
Which twin did you give birth to, Married Dude? The younger or the older?