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Tuesday, July 19, 2011

460

Job Opportunities, Older Professors, and Angel Hair Pasta

Surely this is something every human has worried about at some point in their life, but let's focus on the ladies at the moment. When it comes to man-woman sex, when is a woman a bad lay? I understand the "not reciprocating a hug" analogy, but I want specifics, dude! What should you take to be a (polite, somewhat disguised) signal that you're doing it wrong?

Well, that’s a tough one, mainly because a girl I might consider a good lay might not be so to another dude, and vice versa. We all have our preferences. Some guys may like a girl who just lies there and makes a vinegar face. Me, not so much. Not really into the vinegar faces. Think of it as you would ordering food off a menu. While I like angel hair pasta in a red sauce with spicy meat balls, the next guy might prefer penne pasta with chicken in a mild cream sauce.

With that said, I think there are some universal common traits that most good lays have, and the main one is engagement. I feel safe in saying that most men don’t care to fuck a girl who just lies there looking pretty. While boys are often thrilled to merely have intercourse, a man tends to want to engage a woman's mind and body. Engage. Communicate. And you don’t actually have to say words to do this! You can do it with a moan, a pant, a pull of the hair, a slight digging of fingernails into the flesh, a subtle squirm, etc. All of this translates to: “I like what you’re doing, please continue to do it.”

Also, don’t be afraid to be dominant every now and again. An exchange of power positions is healthy during sex, I think, and pretty damn fun. Oh, and reciprocate. If your lover gives you a massage and traces the outline of your entire body post-coitus, don’t be shy about doing the same for him. Shit feels good, man.

But ultimately, the most important thing you can do to be a good lay is to never forget the balls.

I have this guy friend. We had sex a couple of times a long time ago and I decided that it (sex with him) just wasn't for me. I wasn't really into it. Except ... because I wasn't really into it I saw it as an opportunity to basically do whatever the fuck I wanted to this guy? Like? During the sex? To make it fun for myself? And he LOVED that and absolutely refuses to let the experiences go and maintains that they were the best sexual experiences of his life. What?! Yeah. So I told him that there was no way that I was going to have sex with him.

But ... this guy friend also happens to be making a very large sum of money and in his mind he is essentially in the position to be giving it away. So ... um, he asked me if I would have sex with him if he took me out for a really nice dinner and then paid me $500? And he was serious. I'm unemployed, broke, not to mention I'm trying to move to another city? So I'm, like, kind of considering it. OK not kind of. I'm, like, actually considering it.

He's talking about it as more than a one time deal so I could pretty much make some major money absurdly and then bail and start my life in a new city and never. do. that. again.

Although he is the kind of person who'd pay his hot friend to slap him around and ride his dee, he is not the kind of person who'd tell a lot of people, or even anyone about it. Should I do this??? If you say no ... can you make an effort to please make it about something other than what it will mean to me after it's over? i.e., self-esteem ruined, can I live with being a whore, who am I, blah blah blah. That argument really isn't cutting it for me right now. And if you say yes, can you tell me how not to have it mean those things to me after it's over?

Are you kidding me … DO IT! This actually strikes me as a quite reasonable, forward-thinking arrangement. And it’s a mutual exchange that you’ll both benefit from. Fucking go for it.

I know this is hard, but I'd say to throw out the negative connotations modern culture and society has successfully attached to a fair exchange of money for sex between consenting adults. I know it’s become sort of cliche to say this, but men pay for sex all the time. If he were dating a girl, he’d spend all kinds of money taking her out for dinner and drinks and buying her gifts and whatnot, and in this arrangement he gets to cut the bullshit, saving himself a lot of time and headaches in the process, and get what he truly wants right now — AND he gets to help you in the process.

So again, go for it. The way you described it, it’s kind of a no-brainer and I think you’d be sort of crazy not to. Look at it like this — if you were an animal rights activist who was a vegetarian for ethical reasons, and someone came to you with a choice of eating one of those Japanese shit burgers, which an animal didn’t have to die to produce, or a steak, which an animal did have to die for, I bet you’d probably choose the steak over the shit burger. That’s how I look at this situation.

Think of all the crap you’d have to do to earn $500 otherwise. Wait tables. Clean apartments. Peddle khakis in a soulless shopping mall. That's a shit burger right there. On the other hand, you can spend an hour banging your guy friend’s brains out and take his money. That's a steak.

And for the Hairpin commenters who I’m sure will be thrilled about this edition’s anonymous dude advising a lady to actually trade money for sex, effectively telling her that she should embrace being a “prostitute,” well, I'm curious to see how this unfolds.

OK. This is going to be kind of lengthy. I am completely crazy (and I mean, like holy shit,
haven't-been-this-crazy-over-someone-since-I-was-15-and-horribly-stupid-about-this-sort-of-thing crazy) for this guy (let's call him Don). Don is, so far as I can tell, everything I could ever possibly want in a guy. He's intelligent, passionate about his work, funny in a goofy foreign sort of way (my favorite kind), and just generally fascinating, not to mention GORGEOUS. Or at least, I think so. Maybe he's a bit odd looking, I don't know or care. To be fair, there's still a LOT to learn about the guy; I've only known him for a few months, and our relationship so far has been entirely professional. It has had to be — he is (was, as of today), one of my college professors. So yes, there's taboo there. And yes, I'm much younger than he is (I suspect he's in his mid 30s, though I'm not sure, and I'm 21), although that doesn't bother me... I've always preferred older men, so if he's OK with that then no big deal. My biggest problem right now is 1. I don't want to put him in a position where he might lose his job, or even just the approval of his peers, and 2. He has a girlfriend.

Number one is fairly straightforward, I think: I'll graduate soon enough, and as long as I don't take any more of his classes I think it's OK according to the school I attend. Two, however... I don't know. She lives in another country. He's been giving me "interested" signs all semester (in a non-skeevy-old-professor sort of manner). And I know that dating isn't the same as being married, and yes I know that sounds bitchy, but you only have one life to live, right? And it's not like I want to break them up just to sleep with him; I'd really like this to be something more than that.

So. Um. Actually I'm not sure WHAT I'm asking, but any advice? On any of it? How would YOU feel about dating a girl probably 10 years your junior (assuming you were old enough that that weren't illegal)? I've never had any problem getting along with people of any age group, and am not really the wild-party-college-kid type. Have you ever pursued anyone despite knowing they had a bf/gf? Any info on how to go about that? (I know, I know. Don't judge too harshly.) Know of any professors who ended up with former students?

Wow, this is quite a coincidence, as last summer I had a friend, an attractive girl in her late 20s, who started a relationship with one of her professors from college, a man in his early 60s. She had a situation that sounds similar to yours when she was in school — she was mildly obsessed with him, but he was married at the time, so she did nothing other than flirt, of course. And then a few years later things came together — he and his wife divorced, my friend and the professor ran into each other by happenstance, they went out for drinks and then slept together on that first date. However, it didn’t last much longer after that, as the vast age difference just presented too many problems.

So my advice to you would be to wait it out. If it’s meant to be it’s meant to be and something will happen. I wouldn't advise someone to try to break a couple up, because I a) believe in karma, and b) think it can lead to trust issues later on down the line if a full-blown relationship develops. I know it’s hard when you’re in love with someone, but I just think its best to not be the breaker-upper. Let it happen organically, if it’s going to happen at all. I’m not one for getting mixed up in somebody’s relationship. But maybe that’s just me.

I met a guy about a year and a half ago, and pretty much thought he was perfect for me. Friend of a friend, funny, smart, super creative. A few months later, we hooked up at his place (he initiated), and every time after that, he continued to initiate sexual contact. Of course, I loved it. Was totally smitten. Fast forward to a few months ago, when he, out of the blue, said he valued my friendship more than just hooking up and wanted to stop seeing me in that context. I acted nonchalant, but inside, I was kind of dying. He's now seeing someone else, who's about 10 years younger and super ugly, and he avoids hanging out with me one-on-one, even though he claims we're still friends. I want to be friends/hang out with him, but he's attached to the hip to this anorexic little ditz he's fucking and I just can't get past how much I dislike her. And again, he always comes up with shitty excuses as to why he can't hang out with me alone. As a dude, I need your advice and opinions on what the hell is really going on here. And please be honest, since HE clearly can't.

I don’t know how else to answer this — and it appears to be obvious — but it sounds like he simply likes the other girl more than he likes you. His relationship with her means more to him than his relationship with you does. That doesn’t mean he still doesn’t like you, it just means that pleasing her is more important to him than pleasing you.

Look, love and attraction are weird things. Just because this guy left you behind to run around with this other girl doesn’t mean she’s better than you in any way. It just means that he finds her more attractive, for whatever reason. It's like I was saying earlier with pasta. So, at the risk of sounding like an asshole, get over it and move the hell on. Life is passing you by the more you sit around anguishing over this.

Now, can I share a story with you? Yes? Good. So a few years back, I split from the great love of my life after a long, tormented relationship. It needed to end, everyone knew this but us for the longest time, and when it finally did I spent weeks in the dumps, just being depressed and feeling sorry for myself and imagining my ex spending every night covered in other men’s semen. Finally, some friends intervened and showed up at my house one day and quite literally dragged me out. We went to this dive bar where we played pool and drank cheap beer. Despite being in the midst of a serious bout of depression, it was kinda great.

Anyway, there was this old man at the bar that night who just sat watching a hockey game without saying so much as a word, though he apparently heard me whining to my friends all night about how my life was over blah, blah, blah. So finally, right after last call was announced, I went over to the bar to buy my friends a final round of drinks and the old man spoke for the first time, just as he was polishing off his last drink.

“I couldn’t help but overhear...it sounds like you’re going through a breakup.”

“Yeah, it sucks.”

“Can I give you a piece of advice?”

“Sure, go ahead.”

“To get over one, fuck many.”

He then took the last swig of his drink, slammed his glass on the bar, and walked out, like a goddamn phantom. I’ll never forget that. And you know what? The old dude was right. Just saying.

Previously: Old Debt, New Surprises, and Cities "Literally Crawling" With Men.

A Dude is one of several rotating dudes who know everything. Do you have any questions for A Dude?



460 Comments / Post A Comment

atipofthehat

$600!

Quinciferous

@atipofthehat That was my thought, actually -- $500 isn't even a month's rent. Drive a harder bargain -- this guy sounds so boring and you need it for all the great IKEA shopping you're going to do for your new apartment across the country!

atipofthehat

@Quinciferous

Actually, I thought I was bidding.

$650!

Megasus

@Quinciferous And if she's the best he's ever had and he wants it so bad, I think she has the right to name her price. I mean, I would do this in a heartbeat (if I was single, but I am super poor, go unemployment/health problems!), but I would TOTALLY CHARGE WAY MORE.

allthecuteshit

@Megan Patterson@facebook yes. good pros do.

Achyvi

@Megan Patterson@facebook EXACTLY. If he wants it that bad (and isn't being skeevy about it, which it sounds like not?), then girl, you gotta MILK THAT SHIT within a reasonable extent if you want it to continue until you're bored of it.

QuiteAmiable

"But ultimately, the most important thing you can do to be a good lay is to never forget the balls." I have learned that this statement is true for most things in life.

Phil

@QuiteAimable This is so true! How is this so true? I don't get it. There aren't even that many nerves down there...

SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THIS IS TRUE!!

QuiteAmiable

@Phil There needs to be a pillow embroidered with the words "NEVER FORGET THE BALLS". I would keep it on my bed as a constant reminder.

Brobdingnagian Brainboners

@QuiteAimable Yet somehow, I keep managing to involve myself with the apparent minority of men who freak out and say DON'T TOUCH MY BALLS THEY'RE SENSITIVE. Not even a gentle caress...

QuiteAmiable

@DevilDucky That is most unfortunate. They are so much fun to squeeze!

Princess Gigglyfart

@QuiteAimable I think the pillows should just say 'NEVER FORGET' with a picture of a pair of cartoon balls. I know a few people who would wear it on a shirt.

KaiMcN@twitter

@QuiteAimable I've been planning to take up x-stitch (and hate hanging to be attentive to the balls) so I think my second project may be this very pillow.
And I will keep it on my (single lady) bed to confuse everyone.

QuiteAmiable

@Kai@twitter I feel an etsy shop coming on...

the.cat

@KaiMcN@twitter When I first read "x-stitch" I thought you meant x-rated cross stitch, which maybe you did? Because that should exist if it doesn't already.

Lollisoda37

@QuiteAimable Oh my God, I second everything here! Especially about the "x-rated cross stitch!"

ann aunamis

@KaiMcN@twitter I would buy one of those.

KaiMcN@twitter

@QuiteAimable Haha, not intended to be x-rated, but I think all future projects have to be now! I'm stealing that idea for keeps.

treeskier170

@QuiteAimable it just feels right

shenannies

Second lady GO FOR IT! Win-win situation here without a second thought.

Phil

@shenannies The only problem then is you can't donate blood ever again! They always ask you those high-risk questions... "Have you ever exchanged money for sex, even one time", and you'd have to say "yes"!

Alli525

@Phil I meeeeeeean I feel like there, they're asking about actual prostitution, as in anonymous, high-risk, hooker-off-the-street-style. Like A Guy said, men spend money to get laid all the time, they're called dates. This is a grey area and, especially because the Second Lady knows this guy and has known him for a while, I would just answer "no" and move on.

insouciantlover

@shenannies Word. Do it, but for twice that.

Lily Rowan

@Alli525 It's what they are targeting, maybe, but not at all what they are asking. Just in case you have a problem with lying to the Red Cross or whoever.

But maybe you're not actually banned for life? I checked into the restrictions after Doing It with a bi guy, and I only had to wait a year, I think.

Hot mayonnaise

@Alli525: you just give him a pencil after each transaction. You're not selling sex, just special pencils!

Ironika Leigh

@hot mayonnaise pencils with benefits

pkle

@Phil Alternatively, if you're super needle-phobic and always feel guilty about not donating, this gives the extra benefit of a built-in excuse of ineligibility.

The Lady of Shalott

Letter-Writer #3: If you've only known him for a few months and the only interactions you've had with him are professorial in nature, how do you know he's everything you ever wanted in a man? Unless the class you were taking is "All About Don 1001" instead of, like, Anthropology 3025.

And 99% of the time, professors who date students are skeeves.

Quinciferous

@The Lady of Shalott As I'm on the professorial track myself (here's to hoping, at least!), I have realized that there is a whole community of gross, entitled male professors who serially date their students. The whole power-imbalance thing is there, the age issue -- ahhh.

I'm sure there are some lady professors doing this sort of thing, but mostly you meet the dudes.

jacqueline
jacqueline

@The Lady of Shalott TRUTH BOMB. Also, I totally wanna take a class called "All About Don 1001".

atipofthehat

@Quinciferous

I don't care about the ages so much, but when it's mixed with teaching and mentoring, it's actually evil. I once knew a young woman, just starting off in college, who was praised and encouraged by a professor who later (while still her professor) kissed her and so on. She'd been developing new talents with his support, and now suddenly the questions were: "Am I really any good at this...or does he just want to fuck me?" (Of course, you can want to fuck someone who's good at something, but you can't game the student-teacher relationship and still respect it, and she did not need that confusion at 18.)

Magpie Shinies

@Quinciferous: My ex was one of these, as was his dad. I wrote a long this about it else where on this thread. I was as close to it as a non-professor can be, and it amazes me how PREVALENT it is among male profs!

bb
bb

@Quinciferous @tipofthehat yes yes and yes. I have taught college since my late 20s, and I can avow that the age gap makes no difference. A professor who bones his students is a skeeve. Also there is a HUGE difference between "seeming interested" and actually being interested. Good advice from the Dude, come to think of it - wait and see if there is some actual outside sign/event to make this happen.

gfrancie

If #2 decides to go through this, make a point of getting certain things in writing "no you may not talk about this or share this information with other people" Also he MUST use protection and I say up the price. Double it in fact.

Judith Slutler

1. Just fuck him

2. Just fuck him and take the money

3. Wait until you are graduated and then if he is single, just fuck him

4. Just FUCK HIM, like in the metaphorical sense, and then find someone else awesomer and fuck him in the literal sense

Fucking: it solves problems!

Christina Williamson

@Emmanuelle Cunt You make me think of Bonobos. It should be a new philsophy of life: Bonoboism.

palliata

@Emmanuelle Cunt This is a beautiful sentiment.

Xanthophyllippa

@Christina Williamson: Nothing a little mutual rubbing can't solve...

noReally

Dude, lay and lie. Get it straight or get a copy editor.

Edith Zimmerman

@noReally I think "lay" is the correct term here?

Hot mayonnaise

@Edith Zimmerman: I think it is "lie." I remember it as: People lie (fib).

MrComment

@Edith Zimmerman I think I've probably gotten lied almost as many times as I've gotten laid. (Gotten? Now everything looks wrong.)

sam.i.am

@Edith Zimmerman It should be lie. Lay usually needs a direct object. I always remember it that "Lay, lady, lay" is grammatically incorrect. And I have a chart written on the inside cover of my AP Style manual.

Quinciferous

@Hot mayonnaise I am with you on this because of transitive and intransitive verbs: you lay something down; you lie down -- "lay" is supposed to take a direct object.

On the other hand, eh, colloquialisms! Let's call it a descriptive-language blog and be done with it.

Jolie Kerr

@sam.i.am Why don't you be a love, scan it, send it to Edith and she can post it here for the rest of us to download and print.

sam.i.am

@Jolie Kerr I actually just stole it from Grammar Girl.

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/lay-versus-lie.aspx

Phil

@Edith Zimmerman I thought it was a pun, because the question is about how to be a "good lay"? I laughed. She LAYS THERE!!!

why the fuss?

@noReally Ok, AP Style says: "The action word is lay. It takes a direct object...Lie indicates a state of reclining along a horizontal plane. It does not take a direct object...Wrong: He lays on the beach all day. I will lay down. Right: He lies on the beach all day. I will lie down" Sorry, Edith.

Nom, grammar.

Edith Zimmerman

@sam.i.am I understand the rules of lie vs. lay, but I thought for sex purposes it's lay? Like, I'm a terrible lie? What? that's not right! Right? Oh god grammar fight on Ask a Dude! I'm sorry to have done this.

Tuna Surprise

@noReally
I only know "chickens lay eggs, people lie down".
Is that right? Please tell me if it isn't, it's been my yardstick for years.

major disaster

@Edith Zimmerman I think the original comment was referring to the "she just lays there" part? I think "a good lay" is still okay (as in, "get laid").

leonstj

@Tuna Surprise I'm going to say when related to sex, it's always "lay" not "lie". Look at the letters. "lay" is so much more aesthetically pleasing, it has to be the appropriate spelling for such a filthy wonderful thing.

MrComment

@Edith Zimmerman I believe "lay" has done been nounified in that particular circumstance.

sam.i.am

@Edith Zimmerman Once sex comes into play, I am no longer qualified to offer advice.

atipofthehat

@Edith Zimmerman

At some point, you must have lain down and gotten laid!

Edith Zimmerman

@major disaster Ah! Yes, my bad. Fixed.

Bus Driver Stu Benedict

"...and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose."

mmwm

@Edith Zimmerman You only use "terrible lie" if you're not forgetting the balls on a golf course.

noReally

@Edith Zimmerman Uh, "I feel safe in saying that most men don’t care to fuck a girl who just lays there looking pretty."

randummy

@Quinciferous

yep, plus language is evolving constantly. Also, isn't it weird when a word can mean two different things, each totally the opposite of the other! autoantonyms! like oversight or adumbrate. Or bad!

bashe

@Edith Zimmerman Well, but in the case of sex, "lay" is a noun, right, not a verb? "She is a good lay."

Quinciferous

@randummy Or nonplussed! I totally derailed someone's Facebook conversation to talk about "nonplussed" recently. I love that it can mean "upset" or "completely totally not upset." Etymology 4 EVA.

GoCeilings

@Quinciferous Nonplussed really just means 'confused'. So it's neither 'upset' nor 'unfazed'. Nowadays with everyone getting words wrong constantly it's had its meaning altered - although really only in the US. Hope that made some kind of sense...

tea tray in the sky.

@Alsy Informally though, it seems to mean something else.

adjective
1 (of a person) surprised and confused so much that they are unsure how to react : he would be completely nonplussed and embarrassed at the idea.
2 informal (of a person) not disconcerted; unperturbed.

So I think in regular everyday conversation, it COULD mean either "upset" or "totally not upset"?

frangipanties

@bashe-- if she just lays there (like a thing) she is not being a good lay. I thought that was the whole point.

Quinciferous

@Twinkle Little Bat Yes, you've got it. The idea of being descriptive, not prescriptive, about language makes a lot of people freak out. "BUT THAT IS NOT CORRECT USAGE!!" vs. "People say it, so there it is."

Anyways, you may enjoy this extended discussion of the matter (or you may be like, stop talking about this, sheesh): http://aggslanguage.wordpress.com/2011/04/09/the-nonplussed-problem/

tea tray in the sky.

@Quinciferous I read that article, and I'm nonplussed about it. Wish you knew how it made me feel, dontcha?

Edith Zimmerman

@bashe Shit, missed it. Fixed.

Nutellaface

My mom and dad got together when she was 19 and he was her professor (and there was WAY more of an age difference than in lady #3's situation!) They just celebrated their 29th wedding anniversary! I mean, results not typical, but still.

bb
bb

@Nutellaface yeah, it happens. but usually it's not a student who took one class and, with no apparent one-on-one contact, declares she is in love with someone who has a faraway partner.

Nutellaface

@bb Probably. Plus, I suspect things were different in the late 70s...

steponitvelma

@Nutellaface My dad was my mom's professor too! But she was a graduate student and there isn't much of an age difference, so they were more colleagues than anything else.

elysian fields

Ohhhhhhhhhh no. No no no no no no. Girl #3, go read the column with the "I'm in love with my MCAT teacher" and get back to me.

I've said it once and it looks like I need to say it again. Knowing someone (i.e. your instructor) in a purely professional (i.e. SUPERFICIAL) context for ONLY A FEW MONTHS and then claiming you are CRAZY IN LOVE with this person is STRAIGHT-UP HOGSWASH. It is an insult to everyone in the world who has actually been in love, not with a ridiculous fantasy, but with a person whom he or she actually knows in a meaningful sense.

major disaster

@elysian fields I was going to say, didn't we just read this letter like, a week or two ago? And just like in that one, dude has a girlfriend. Didn't we collectively decide it's not cool to pursue attached people?

KatnotCat

@elysian fields She hasn't even successfully Google stalked his age yet!

Loop

@major disaster
I was just about to say the same thing. It's strange to me how much more indulgent the comments are to her situation this time round.

noodge

@Loop i think everyone's just over talking about this... it was WELL hashed out the last time.

randummy

@elysian fields I don't know, seems like this lw has more of a real connection, to me, in the way she describes him.

And I also know an awesome couple in their 50's who've been together who had the professor student relationship initially and an attraction developed.

You fall for people you come into contact with, and that can include a student teacher thing.

Also, we all know long distance relationships are somewhat "challenged" for better or worse (better I guess if you get thru it strong as ever).

Buuuuuut, *as* a *rule* male (esp.) professor, and student relationships are inclined to be skeevish. Read recently from a new female professor how truly awful the culture of male prof-dom can be, like they can act like they're rock stars picking out groupies.

So: definitely determine if prof-dude would consider cheating on his gf, or if he might just end it to go out with you. If the former, do not pass go. If the latter, then...

Can you hold up your end of the power dynamic? Cause, student groupie, ugh, gross. You don't want to unintentionally convert this guy to a serial student banger, because there IS a power issue, maybe (I mean, there is. But, otoh, I can imagine myself as totally banging my students every year, too... perks of the job? idk).

Feel him out to see how their relationship is going. Ask him out for coffee. Don't be predatory, but if their relationship seems like it might already be on the way out, or that he's ready to move on (which, if he's sending you signals then either he's skeevy, he's lonely, or this long-distance thing may not be working out).

Maybe it's just that you sold him... feels like your attraction is pretty strong maybe.

But then again, you'll be "that girl", so maybe not.

theharpoon

@KatnotCat I know, she obviously doesn't even like him really.

MoonBat

@randummy
Doesn't anyone else care to question the fact that student girl knows her professorhas a girlfriend, and knows it's a long distance relationship? What kind of discussion would even need to involve thus much information about gis personal life? Guys don't "accidentally" share personal info. His message was "I'm available, but for sex only. Otherwise, I'm taken."

applestoapples

Another query about wanting to be with one's professor who has a significant other? I get that it's a thing--I was head over heels for a professor once--but that dilemma ain't new. Hell, it goes way back to Socrates. Check the back issues.

rayray

@applestoapples Call it Déja Dude.

melis

...Carrie Bradshaw?

rayray

@melis Ahaha... 'Uptown, Charlotte was learning some lessons of her own...'

DrFeelGood

@rayray I wish my life had an internal Carrie Bradshaw monologue... wait, no I don't.

clipse

@DrFeelGood I couldn't help but wonder what that would be like...

jennyo

#3: Every once in a great while this works out, but most of the time, really bad idea. And even if you wait until you graduate and he's single, there's a good chance his colleagues will still not look at all kindly on his dating 22-yr-old former students. When he doesn't get tenure, he'll be a lot less attractive, I promise. Enjoy the crush and the mild flirtation and let it go.

Loop

@jennyo Reading Zadie Smith's On Beauty would dovetail nicely with this advice.

jennyo

@Loop True! Thanks for the reminder. I am now remembering the a cappella group scene in that novel and giggling.

bb
bb

@jennyo When he doesn't get tenure, he'll be a lot less attractive, I promise.
snap.

pkle

@jennyo When he doesn't get tenure, he'll be a lot less attractive, I promise.

And this is why I will never, never act on an attraction to a student, even though I'm still younger than some of them right now...

randummy

@jennyo

Sound advice.

@pkle

I would be tempted, tho, with all those bright eager faces just turning to me for knowledge. And. I. have. so. much. to. teach! Yep, I'd be a total letch! (just kidding. maybe?)

bashe

@jennyo Too right. One of my male colleagues is dating a 23-year-old who just graduated, and we're all skeeved out.

E
E

Oh girl number 3. Didn't you see what happened with the other girl who wanted to hook up with her TA with the girlfriend? No one was on board with that.

I think most ladies have been there with a professor/older dude. It's a cliche for a reason. But let me tell you a cautionary tale worth hearing. I had the insane, can't sleep can't breathe hots for this guy in one of my classes for 3 years in college. He was older and handsome and he had been all over the world saving indigenous peoples and he used the word "dialectic" in common conversation. We flirted forever and I was all, "I'm an ugly duckling! He will never fall for me!" And then finally one day, we hooked up and he said he had wanted me for a long time. The stars aligned! Unicorns! Rainbows!

...and he turned out to be a open mouth kisser. It was like kissing a squishy coffee mug. And then things got weirder from there and ended with a lot of crying. So. When you feel that feeling? That electric chemical feeling? There is no attached promise that reality will be hot. It might be. He and you might fall in love and he dumps the girlfriend and you have babies and it's great and you get to change his diapers when he's 75 and you are 61. But if you just enjoy having the hots for him, without pursuing him, you get good karma and a fantasy that is never tainted with grubby reality.

themegnapkin

@E wait, pls explain this to me: "... And he turned out to be an open mouth kisser.". My last ex was the same, can I tell him he's objectively doing it wrong?

allifer

@E squishy coffee mug <3

Yeah, don't break up the cow's relationship if you haven't already gotten a milk sample for free.

heb
heb

@E Wait ... what's an open mouth kisser? Like he just ... sucks on your face?

E
E

@heb no. Not like a remora sucking you down. (Although I've been there too. Oh kissing, sometimes you are so gross.) More passive. Like...mouth open all the way. And then you are like, hmm...with my TMJ, if I try to match lips to lips here, I'm going to dislocate. So then it's like, do you kind of dive in with your tongue out in front? Do you kiss around the lips, like you are walking around the rim? Do you sexily apply force on the chin and top of head until the mouth assumes the correct scale of 1-2/3rds open postion? What to do? Best idea, move straight to sex, leave your earrings there, have to go back later after he's said you are coming on to strong disregarding that he came on to you first, and go get the damn earrings back, then cry and cry. Only gain perspective about not having to drown in his mouth years later.

E
E

@allifer. I don't know what your deal is with your ex. But if you are a) really really good friends and help him hook up with girls now and everyone is all cool, OR b) if it ended SO BADLY you are still wincing years later, yes you may tell him it's the worst.

Option a) "Hey so even though we didn't work out, I wanted you to know I loved everything you did in bed except that weird super open way you held your mouth. I always wished it was more like open 1/3 of the way with more lip action. That's just me, but in case you wanted to know, it could be awesome to try the other way." Fin and never mention again.

Option B) "Hey asshole! I just remembered. You were a shitty kisser! Why did you make the squishy coffee mug with your mouth!? What the hell is that all about! Jesus. Watch some hot rench movies and figure out how kissing is done. No wonder I left you/Thank you for leaving me! The new guys are so good at kissing!"

themegnapkin

@E I think you meant me, not allifer. We're friends, and it wasn't quite as bad as what you describe. Making out with him was kind of a struggle b/t our very different techniques. I think I'll let sleeping dogs lie, though - maybe his new gf likes it.

E
E

@themegnapkin Sorry! Bad clicking! Yeah, if it's not terrible and he's got his, then whatever. Plus I think the best time to mold someone is when you are dating them.

MrComment

I like how the 21-year-old has "always preferred older men." Really? You're not into dating 19-year-old dudes? Get out of here.

elysian fields

@MrComment ughhhhh I rolled my eyes so hard at that.

oboesqueaks

@MrComment I think that's sorta a sign of immaturity right there (oh along with the OMG I LOVE MY PROFESSOR). I dated a 24yo guy my freshman year of college who I met at a house party... until I started wondering why a 24yo was hanging out at a college house party hitting on freshmen. Brought the creep factor up a bit.

Cherryblossomgirl

@MrComment I will stick up for her here. I'm 19 and since I started being romantically involved with men (in any capacity), I have "always preferred older men."

But that's the only point at which I'm sticking up for her. As someone above pointed out, there is only a certain extent that you can really know your prof. If they are good at their jobs, they'll have that authority! distinguished! but fun! rapport thing down pretty well. Don't mean a thing.

Liz Kaufman@facebook

@MrComment I'm in her corner on that one aspect as well, like Cherryblossomgirl, as a fellow 19-year-old with a hankering for older guys (I'm dating a 44-year-old). I think when people our age say they like "older guys," it means more 10- or 15- or 20-plus gap rather than loose contemporaries like, say, me dating a 22-year-old.

Jolie Kerr
Alli525

@Jolie Kerr Ahhhhhh Natalie Cole. Between this and your cleaning products I think I have a Third-Lady-Crazy level of crush on you.

Jolie Kerr

@Alli525 And it's from the Pretty Woman soundtrack!! GET IT?! GET IT?!?

insouciantlover

@Jolie Kerr as soon as I clicked that I was like "HOLY SHIT THAT'S FROM THE PRETTY WOMAN SOUNDTRACK!"

(that and Pointer Sister's Break Out were my first two tapes)

Clare

Lady No. 4, cut that guy loose. If you're meant to be friends with him again, it'll happen. I was in your shoes with the last guy I dated. I never saw a future with the guy (he wants kids, I don't) but it still hurt me very, very deeply. Anyway, I got naked with one of his best friends last weekend and I'm feeling much, much happier and more at peace with the situation now.

So, sex. It solves the problems.

MrComment

LW#2 pretty much answered LW#1's question.

KatnotCat

Where are these hot professors and TAs all working, damn it?

elysian fields

@KatnotCat um seriously. I, too, would like to know. Because when I think about hooking up with any of the dude professors I had in college, I want to vom.

TheRisottoRacket

@KatnotCat Apparently The Hairpin has collectively been or seen these wonky situations! Yoinks!

Bittersweet

@KatnotCat: I took a class with one hot prof in my six years of post-high school studies. He was a visiting prof., married (of course) who went back to Italy at the end of the semester. It was a freaking awesome class all 'round.

oboesqueaks

@KatnotCat I met a really cute prof at my school at a concert I went to (not near campus at all). I was never in his classes or even the same department, so I sorta wanted to date him. Never worked out, so probably for the better, especially given all the cheating professor stories above.

DrFeelGood

@KatnotCat Methinks it's an "Im attracted to the power/prestige/intellect" and not "he's a total babe".

queenofbithynia

"I know it’s become sort of cliche to say this, but men pay for sex all the time." Ha ha, you forgot the word "misogynist!" It's become a _misogynist_ cliche to say that, except I don't think that's even true, it hasn't become one lately, it's been one since the BEGINNING OF TIME.

Here is why it is not paying for sex to buy a girl dinner: Because she might sleep with you after, but she does not have to, and if she doesn't, she hasn't cheated you of a damn thing and you haven't paid for a damn thing you didn't get, and if she doesn't, she has not somehow failed to do her job.

Sure, questioner, have sex for money (I would!) but not 'cause some self-satisfied internetbag says men pay for it one way or another. Jeez.

Hot mayonnaise

@queenofbithynia: Yes, it's all contract law.

shantasybaby

@queenofbithynia That the was the part of his answer that I was like "eye roll" because women typically are not having sex in exchange for food in this industrial society and it's over simplistic to say men PAY for sex by giving a woman a warm meal. But, what I do think is a somewhat more accurate point, is that men do still pay for the majority of early dating activities so yes, dating can be expensive for a guy. Now, if his only intent in all this wooing is screwing, and doesn't enjoy the lady at all aside from the promise of her warm sex holes, then he could, theoretically, and dickishly, feel like he is paying for sex. Men should not be wining and dining if they really just want to be boning- find a woman who just wants to fuck and she won't require you feed her OR actually pay someone for the sex. I think -if she doesn't have moral qualms about it- she should negotiate for more and go for it! But of course, she did have sex for free so it's not like "oh girl, you're selling yourself short" this isn't just some john off the street. Isn't the average going rate for an escort around $200 an hour? So $500's not even that bad.

leonstj

@queenofbithynia We also pay by putting up with your incessant nagging! All women do is nag! And mother-in-laws are the worst! And what is the deal with make-up and high-tech bra's, that is false advertising! Ugh and we pay by having to come up with something when you ask "What are you thinking?" I'm thinking you should tickle my balls! And maybe the reason we make $1 for every .75 you make is because we have to buy you dinner every god damn night and pay for all the drinks as if we wanted to hear you say anything other than "I'd like to show you my tits the clean your kitchen." And what is the fucking deal with airline peanuts?

major disaster

@leon.saintjean And of course we shouldn't forget that you graciously offer to pay for our nose jobs!

leonstj

@major disaster Totally, but I mean, only if YOU want it. Sure, I'd think you were much more, you know, lovable, with severe cosmetic surgery, but I'm not saying that, you know, you SHOULD. Just that if you don't I won't love you and I'll hook up with your less schnozzy sister. No pressure.

drlolo

@queenofbithynia I love how she explictly asked "How do I feel like not a whore if I do this?" and the answer is, "You already are one! Werk it!"

Slapfight

@queenofbithynia All this time I thought men paid for dinner because they make that additional 30 cents or so more than us? I'd prefer that 30 cents however. ;)
I'm so confused. I thought I was a cheap slut, not a cheap whore. Does that make all the dudes whom I've bought drinks and dinner for prostitutes as well?
I now have so many more questions...

Slapfight

@leon.saintjean Crap. I saw your post after mine. Sorry to have stolen your joke.
I'm a hack. One more reason to feel bad about myself. This site doesn't seem to let me edit from my work computer. Oh God. I'm failing at life.

whizz_dumb

@queenofbithynia I have always mind-winced when that 'you pay for it one way or another' dick-tard logic is spewed. Besides that A Dude, I think a good rule to follow is this: If you ask yourself "is this cliche?" and the answer is yes, find another way to put it. We have more time to formulate original material in writing as opposed to speaking, and that's an advantage.

Sorry to dwell on the one negative, the rest was agreeable.

Kitten Mittens

@queenofbithynia One day at a thrift shop, I was flipping through a teen-girl advice book by Carol Weston. Bam, first line I see:

"If a guy pays for your dinner, that does not mean you owe him $19.99 worth of making out in the car on the way home."

I want to get that shit tattooed on my face.

Annie Malamet@facebook

@queenofbithynia Fucking seriously. Also the idea that men only take women out for dates so they can screw them later? Cause they aren't like...interested in them as people or anything. Also, am I the only one who goes dutch all the time? WHY ARE WE STILL ASSUMING MEN PAY FOR EVERYTHING ON A DATE.

Greg Allan

@queenofbithynia I think the analogy is valid. Sex-for-money arrangements are not legally binding, so if a man hands money to a woman in exchange for sex, the woman is under no obligation to actually have sex with him OR return the money. (The opposite is true as well, he's under no obligation to pay if she has sex with him before getting the money). So if a guy spends $200 on a date and expects to get laid because of it, the woman likewise has no obligation to sleep with him or return the money in any way.

Yes, I suppose you could argue that in the first scenario the woman is aware that she's supposed to have sex in exchange for money, so not doing so breaks some sort of ethical obligation. But I'm inclined to think that most women are smart enough to know when a guy is trying to buy his way into their pants on a date.

AceofSix@twitter

@queenofbithynia THANK YOU. I truly enjoy Hairpin comment threads for the progressive/ level-headed funny, I was a li'l chagrined that it took 100+ comments for someone to point out the old "date = prostitution" chestnut. And as @shantasybaby sez, if you spend time wining/ dining just to have sex well...you're doing it wrong. There are MUCH easier ways, fella.

Sydney C

To number 3, if someone with a girlfriend is throwing you "interested signals," stop and think about how it would feel if you started dating and he started throwing those same signals at someone else. It's a good way to get over an infatuation.

City_Dater

What is up with these women who wander around in soap operas of their own devising, plotting to break up established relationships ("because he should be with ME"), as if this is so easily possible and/or desirable?

OhMyGoshYouGuys

@City_Dater I know! I would totally cut Girl No. 3 if she was after my guy. Just a word of warning. If you go through with it, prepare to be cut.

Jolie Kerr

@City_Dater They are self-absorbed and vile idiots who we should red rover over to Jezebel's commenting pool, followed by treating ours to a nice chlorine cocktail and spa treatment.

leonstj

@City_Dater Also, NO WOMAN is amazing enough or different enough to make a decent guy just dump a woman he is not in the mood to break up with politely. It's been said a million times, but if he cheats on someone to be with you, it is NOT because your are a unique and ideal flower.

It's because he's a fucking cheater. And if you are going to reward his cheating ways by bein' up for the down stroke, don't be surprised when he comes up with stranger-herp.

Magpie Shinies

@Jolie Kerr

I am a refugee from Jez, this made my day!

rayray

@leon.saintjean You are killing this thread today.
And by that I mean winning.

whatsherface

@leon.saintjean Agree with rayray: LSJ you are ON FIRE.

theinvisiblecunt

Paying for dates is not paying for sex you fucking moron

KatnotCat

@theinvisiblecunt Ah the subtle differences between spending time with someone who mutually enjoys your company/physicality and banging a girl who has to get an anonymous internet sounding board together to determine if subjecting herself to your dick is worth $500.

Yes, it's really all the same.

queenofbithynia

@theinvisiblecunt Oh man, so much more succinct than my huffing and puffing above. But so true! This garbage is two steps away from "listening to you ladies talk and talk with your high-pitched mosquito-like voices is soooo annoying and we would never endure it if we did not want to take off your pantses, therefore having conversations with chicks is paying for sex, therefore you are all whores." Am I oversensitive? I don't think I am oversensitive.

theinvisiblecunt

@queenofbithynia, you're not. There's an obvious difference between no-strings-attached fucks and actual relationships and only men who are pussy little bitches afraid to venture a question like "I'm not looking for a relationship, can we just hook up?" think you are "paying" for "sex" when you go out drinking and dancing at a concert for a band you like.

But when Ask A Dude isn't about soliciting a unqiuely male perspective e.g. WHAT RLY GOES ON IN MALE RESTROOMS?, it's just polling some douchebag who happens to read thehairpin and a lot of them are seriously clueless so I don't really see the point of this column.

dracula's ghost

@queenofbithynia you are not oversensitive.

TheBelleWitch

@queenofbithynia I had a whole treatise in my head about how sex isn't a resource you're extracting from an unwilling subordinate, it's a fun activity people do together, like darts or volleyball, but then theinvisblecunt covered it in 11 words. Sooo now I have to go back to work instead, damn?

itmakesmewonder

@theinvisiblecunt You speak the truth, lady, all the truths.

Chesla

@theinvisiblecunt sadly, I think that a lot of men think it is. I won't let a guy pay for things unless I feel like I could be physical with him (kissing even), just because they feel so ripped off if you don't put out.

theinvisiblecunt

@Chesla, of course, same here

melis

@theinvisiblecunt Okay, don't ask me how I know this, but it's all gay sex. All of it. As soon as dudes enter a public restroom, they transform from schlubby Steven EveryJoes into shirtless beastmen with visible filigrees of muscle burgeoning underneath their oiled flesh in leather jodhpurs and fur capes and they're just Hard Times Doing It. Everywhere. Together. All over the bathrooms. Moving as one. On the ceiling even. It's crazy. Then they exit nonchalantly, one by one, being sure to turn out the lights as they go. "Hey babe. Did the waiter come by yet?"

atipofthehat

@Chesla

Hope you meet some better men! I don't know ANY who think that.

Jolie Kerr

@melis No no, that's not the men's room - you're thinking of the steam room at the gym. I think the men's room is where they practice peeing everywhere but inside of the bowl and swap boner back poking tips.

leonstj

@Chesla Not all of us seeing buying a drink as buying vagina-access. Some of us like to pay for dates because it makes us feel manly in a way which does not deprive a woman we are interested in of any opportunities or reinforce negative gender roles. It's a way to say "look, I'm going to demonstrate via my (actual, not feigned) interest in your career and opinions that I am not a man of the 50s, but there also some elements of traditional masculinity and feminity I buy into."

It is not "I'll trade you liquor for pussy."

theinvisiblecunt

@melis, that sounds a little too lovecraftian to qualify for my definition of "sex" though

atipofthehat

@Jolie Kerr

What, you've never turned a spoon into a fork?

*wink*

I'm Not Rufus

@Chesla Guys who feel ripped off if you don't put out after they pay for things on a date are basically exclusively guys who entered the date with the single goal of getting action and are using the date as a pretext to get action. First, these sort of guys are dicks and you shouldn't care what they think about you. Second, if it wasn't apparent that this was his attitude coming in, then he was deceiving you, so fuck him anyhow (figurative sense).

melis

@theinvisiblecunt "No no no, put your tentacle of screaming darkness to the left of the thin shell that protects us from the alien and abstract reality of the cosmos. Goddammit, Slender Man."

Phil

@leon.saintjean Word.

Ay.lola.lolita!

@theinvisiblecunt paying for dinner is not paying for sex. It is however, paying hopefully fuck the woman eating the dinner. It is not your conversation he is after 8 out of 10 times.

melis

Who are these conversation-hating sexbots everyone seems to be dating? Are they all sent over from the Cliched Dating Service department of Central Casting?

dabbyfanny

@Phil I'm beginning to feel as if I really screwed up on the whole "how to be a girl" business, I have NEVER had this "guy takes me out for dinner, maybe we'll shag after" thing. And somehow I got laid a lot, got married (divorced) and am in a domestic partnership thing now....all without an actual "date" *scratches head* what am I doing wrong???

I did once overhear a couple of students discussing the whole "should I let him buy me dinner, what will he expect" thing, and I said "hell, if I buy a guy dinner, I definitely expect sex". And we all laughed at the absurdity of the idea.

wee_ramekin

@Ay.lola.lolita! What what WHAT are you talking about?! Look at your life! Look at your choices! Who are the men that you're dating?!?!

Yes, men AND LADIES usually want to have sex with someone after a good first date, but if you think the only REAL reason he wants to spend a few hours with you is because of your vagina, then WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ON A DATE WITH HIM?!?!

I hate hate HATE it when women propagate this bullshit. It is self-hating, and it uniformly casts all men as vag-hungry juiceboxes who don't want to hear anything that we have to say. LADY UP and don't date men who these things!

Chesla

@atipofthehat I have a great boyfriend, but when I was dating I did meet some men like that. It was enough to make me think twice about taking a drink or meal form a stranger.

theinvisiblecunt

@Ay.lola.lolita!, that distinction doesn't even make sense, just stop.

@melis, from the article, "I know it’s become sort of cliche to say this, but men pay for sex all the time. If he were dating a girl, he’d spend all kinds of money taking her out for dinner and drinks and buying her gifts and whatnot, and in this arrangement he gets to cut the bullshit, saving himself a lot of time and headaches in the process, and get what he truly wants right now[.]"

So there's one guy for you who agrees that what men "truly want" is sex and all the time and money spent hanging out with women is a big bullshit investment to get in their pants

Being They're

@leon.saintjean Just a tiny disagreement about the buying into tradition aspect. I see the dude-paying thing as a proper path to eventual dutch relations. So I hope it's not signaling that I'm down with really being Don Draper ever, but that I know and can follow social conventions when appropriate. Kinda like how it's better to start off with sorta vanilla sex (to show you can do it) before progressing to all the bells & whistles stuff. Now laughing at the thought of incorporating actual bells & whistles...

Chesla

@leon.saintjean no, no, I never said all men were that way. I said I think a lot are. Of those that do expect sex for food/drink/movie, they get irritated if you don't put out. I happen to have a fine fella that took me on all sorts of fun dates and it was to get to know me, not my vag.

atipofthehat

@Chesla

I don't think men who invoke the "paid for date = time to mate" clause actually believe it. I think it's a fallback position. When they've been turned down or suspect they will be, they resort to this fake argument in a whingeing or pseudo-lawyerly manner in hope that it might guilt a woman into "holding up her end" (sorry), or as a sort of passive-aggressive punishment.

melis

God, look, just - just EVERYONE be a lesbian, okay? I swear to God, it does not have to be this awful. Just go be lesbians.

melis

Especially @theinvisiblecunt. No...no particular reason. No special reason at all.

wee_ramekin

@melis Wait 'til theharpoon hears about this. She and I almost got in a fight for your hand at the Austin Pinup.

melis

Ladies, ladies, please - there's enough of this Gay Commenter™ for everyone. Prepare the circular, rotating bed and the cheap massage oils.

melis

@melis God, someday I'll drown in this ocean of self-loathing.

insouciantlover

@Ay.lola.lolita! Girl you don't know my conversational skills.

HoliandIvy

@melis
That's how I know gay isn't a 'choice'. I WISH I could be a lesbian. Who wouldn't?

Quinciferous

@atipofthehat Here's the thing:

There was a time after college where I preened and enjoyed it when other people [read: men, actually*] bought me drinks. I am a well-adjusted feminist and don't feel that there's any implicit contract here, so who cares if Mr. Drink Buyer gets sad that I ultimately don't want to sleep with him? FREE DRINKS!

Then I had a couple of unpleasant encounters that involved having to leave the bar because people [oh right, men, in all cases] got sexual-harrassy when I wasn't as touchable as they would have liked.

After that, it didn't really matter whether or not men had good or honorable intentions -- I felt creepy accepting drinks, so I stopped. Everybody became Schrodinger's Creepy Drink Guy until proven otherwise, which is kind of a shame, since I liked the free drinks aspect of it all.

[*This despite the fact that I spent an enormous amount of time in that Brooklyn lesbian bar, what was it called, Cattyshack? Do lesbians not buy each other drinks as much, or...? Ask A Queer Chick I neeeeed you.]

melis

@Quinciferous We don't, because sometimes you spend all night in the gay bars of West Hollywood psyching yourself up to ask someone out because you've never done it and your last girlfriend's new girlfriend is a cool bartender and also better looking than you, not that you care because you guys are totally past that and definitely friends now, it's cool, and you keep coming up with reasons not to buy anybody a drink because you don't want to be too forward ("Um, obviously she doesn't like me, as evidenced by the fact that she's not currently talking to me, James, I can't just go interrupt her busy staring at the wall schedule"), so your friends keep buying you drinks, and finally you ask a promising-looking dyke with a half-shaved head and a septum piercing, and she looks at you and laughs and laughs and laughs and then says in the straightest voice imaginable, "Um, I'm straight." Not "Thanks, but no thanks." Not "Sorry, I'm with someone." Just: "I'm straight," with an undercurrent of "obviously, you weird lesbian."

And then you totter unsteadily on your feet, because you've had like nine G&Ts at this point, and all the anxiety and nervousness you've been feeling all night sort of coalesce into a hard shiny ball of How Dare You and you lean into her face and breathe, “Then what the FUCK. Are you DOING. In a GAY BAR. With that HAIRCUT.”

“BIIIIIITCH,” you add for good measure, and then proceed to cement your public victory by falling down the stairs.

Ay.lola.lolita!

@wee_ramekin Girl, you better relax. You don't know shit about me. I am happily married woman. But I know way too much about men, at this point in my life. Also I used to date women a lot and they loved the conversation. Men? They do love to pretend. Take a pill.

wee_ramekin

@Ay.lola.lolita! No, I don't know shit about you. I didn't say that I did.

Since you are a happily married woman, it seems like you already took my advice about not dating men who only want to date you because you have a vagina. So I won't be taking a pill, and I will be standing by my view that statements like the one you made are thoughtless and counter-productive.

melis

What pill? Any pill? Okay, until I receive further instruction, I will just take the pills I find. First pill. Second pill. Third pill. This could take a while!

melis

@melis FOURTHPILL.

randummy

@theinvisiblecunt

Honestly, I don't think that approach would be too successful. I've had times in my life where I was dtf, and definitely not into exclusive relationships, and very open to exploring, but I would totally have been offended if someone said they weren't interested in any kind of relationship with me and just wanted sex. Unless they were really sexy. Then that approach might work.

I've always insisted on paying my way (with the occasional exceptions here and there, balanced out by occasional picking up checks as a nicety) but I'd feel a little iffy if I was always supposed to/expected to pay the bill and yes, I think that does translate at the end of the day to "paying for sex" although I think maybe it'd be cool to have ladies consider paying for it... cause you get what you pay for! And maybe then women could explore a little that feeling of entitlement and power. Whereas guys could feel that sense of being "cherished".

But, you can't buy love, so I think we should all go dutch and switch it up now and again. And be careful about selling sex for money, because... that's just weird and too culturally loaded. I do like how dude said "go for it" tho cause that's a very enlightened egalitarian perspective. What dude wouldn't go for it? Get paid to have sex for a one off? Sure, why the fuck not? You buying, I'm flyin! All aboard the express train to rock-your-world! Especially since you already had a pretty decent time the first go round... But it's too weird, which could be a good thing. If you are into breaking taboos, then fine. Raise your price (assuming he can afford it), but fine. Just be sure you're prepared if it ever got out to be all "hells yes, I gave him the time of his life for a grand, and it's worth much more than that let me tell ya! But that was a one off for a friend and if you want it you're gonna have to impress me! Cold cash won't do it, I need a warm heart and a killer smile!" If you don't think you'd be comfortable do that, and flouting convention... I'd advise you to pass, maybe just ask him for a loan as a friend if you're that hard up.

Quinciferous

@melis Oh my GOD thank you for giving an excellent explanation for like eight years of my life. No one ever asked anyone out, it was all so subtle and shy and floor-gazing (except for the super-confident, who are out of your league so why bother?). Trying to date ladies and dudes at the same time in NY was soul-crushing.

Also: stop taking the damn pills! They sound insalubrious.

randummy

@melis Even boys! boys be lesbians, too! But let's all fuck like gay dudes, at least some of the time... hot sweaty gay dude sex. and groom like gay dudes! Let's be lesbians who sometimes fuck like gay dudes who are secretly lesbians! And let's wear party hats and lovely lovely frocks! But let's flirt like straight girls and be secretly self-consciously proud of ourselves (and all we can do!), like straight boys. And let's mess with stereotypes so that nobody knows what the fuck is going on, and won't make presuppositions except based on your facebook/google+

wee_ramekin

@melis GAH! This is my absolute worst worst nightmare. Kudos to you for calling her out, and in such splendid style.

There is a A Gay Lady who works at my local taco joint and who I have been in for-serious infatuation with for OVER A YEAR. And she looks like the most dykey dyke ever.

But what if she isn't? I mean, she has never even glanced at my boobs (they are nice, everyone glances), and she doesn't even blink an eye when I meaningfully order a fish taco from her. She hates me, right?

randummy

@Ay.lola.lolita!

Some men, lola, some men.

Lot's of me are totally into having an actual conversation. In fact that can be a complaint on the other side of things... interesting conversation for all! followed by continuing the conversation "um, physically" for those who mutually decide it would be a good thing.

Ooooh! FIFTH pill! I got it!

randummy

@randummy lots of men, I mean. There's only one of me (usually).

(....maybe I shouldn't eat pills that I find...)

pageantry

@Chesla So you won't let your dates pay for sex, but you will let them buy stock in the possibility?

melis

THAT FIFTH PILL IS MINE PLEASE GIVE IT BACK WHEN YOU CAN OKAY

wee_ramekin

@Ay.lola.lolita! Edited to add: Also, I just realized that if you are not familiar with Sassy Gay Friend, the first line of my original response to you will come off *way* harsher than I intended it to be.

Xora

@melis Everything you're talking about now is why I don't just become a lesbian. It's not actually easier, is it?

whateverlolawants

@melis Funniest thing I've read all week. Thank you.

allthecuteshit

@wee_ramekin @Ay.lola.lolita! @randummy
In my experience at art school (i.e. the land o' sex), when i was hanging out with dirty (feminist) boys and dirty (angry) girls, neither of whom had any money, i learned one thing:
boys will try to fuck you whether or not they buy you dinner first. and you know what? SO WILL GIRLS. they may, however, carve your name in their arm and/or buy you a forty of malt liquor to show you how much they like you/want to get up in dem guts. the two aren't mutually exclusive! you can love someone's conversation/painting/outlook on the enslavement of america to capitalism soooooo much that you just want to fuck them black and blue.
another thing about sex fo $$: the people who do this (pay for it, i mean) do not do it because you're, like, soooooo good in bed, (though i'm sure LW 2 is totally awesome in bed etc, etc)....no, no. some dudes like to pay for sex. it's like, a thing. these are, coincidentally, the same kinds of dudes who probably see paying for dinner and drinks as "sex currency." these are the same dudes who say things like "it's cheaper to keep her" in reference to their wives. these are the same dudes who would probably NEVER date/marry a former sex worker. these are the same dudes who trade in their aging wives for "newer models." we call these dudes "johns."
take his cash. you'll never respect him again. he probably won't think you're worth much respect afterward either, but everyone down at the hairpin knows better.

atipofthehat

@Quinciferous

Buying drinks for a stranger in a bar = not the same as going on a date.

(Sending champagne to your table and waving.)

Quinciferous

@atipofthehat Agreed. I think people were talking about both things? I've never been on a date that involved dinner where I wasn't already sleeping with the person, so I have little to offer in that regard. The drink thing, though, got squicky.

BUT -- thank you for the champagne. I brought the orange juice, so we're set. Mimosas for everyone in the room!

Hooplehead

@allthecuteshit This is the truth.

theharpoon

@wee_ramekin Why does the 400+ comment thread that is of personal interest to me happen on the day when I am driving around the stupid-large state that we live in and am unable to obsessively monitor this Internet Web Site?

wee_ramekin

@theharpoon I do not know, and I missed the fuck out of you. I srsly kept refreshing and being like "Where is sheeeeeeeeee?!? What is she thiiiiiiiiiiinking about these issuuuuuues?!?".

But if you'll notice, I had your back. Ain't no one gonna horn in on your connubial bliss on my watch. I mean, besides me.

theharpoon

@wee_ramekin Which taco joint???? Because there is an adorable girl at the El Chilito near me. I do not know if she likes men or ladies though.

ps I feel that I should confess that I tend to date men.
pps You do have nice boobs.

theharpoon

@wee_ramekin

ppps I bet melis is glad we live way far away from her.

wee_ramekin

@theharpoon It *is* El Chilito! The one on Manor! GAH! I call her 'El Chilito Gay'!!! Although I guess mabes she isn't gay if you aren't picking up on that vibe? *sigh*

ps - My gay-dar is not very strong, obvs.
pps - I imagine you hear that often yourself.
ppps - I think you win that bet. You definitely win that bet.

theharpoon

@wee_ramekin I knew it! She is so cute! She probably reads this site! I had dinner with people I had just met last night and they both knew about the Hairpin! Hi guys!

melis

@theharpoon Are you kidding me? I wanna road-trip from San Jose to Texas just so we can all go to this taco joint and get a read on this chick, a la Dana scoping out Lara the soup chef in season on of the L Word.

wee_ramekin

@melis @theharpoon BUT WHO WILL BE SHANE?!?! It won't be me, sadly. I'm totally Alice.

Also, theharpoon, I'm going to start taking Mom's advice and start believing in myself and my gaydar: I think maybe we're talking about different girls? Because the one I'm talking about has short hair, tattoo sleeves on both arms and always wears the Lesbian Wrist Cuff™™. I can state with only 40% equivocation that she's gay (ohgodplease). There's the other hipster-y one with hair in a ponytail who's cute if you're into femmes. Maybe that's the one who you're up in the air about?

theharpoon

@wee_ramekin No I think we're talking about the same one, but I was just never trying to figure out if she was gay or not because of the whole thing where I date guys. You're probably right! I'm picking up dinner there because of the whole thing where I never go to the freaking grocery store, maybe I'll stare at her and try to determine who she likes to date.

@melis I shouldn't have doubted you.

dr. annabel lies

@wee_ramekin I know who you mean and she IS cute! I too don't know if she likes ladies or menfolk.

wee_ramekin

@dr. annabel lies @theharpoon Can you even imagine being so cute/hot that you have an entire spontaneously-generated thread on the internet about your cute-dorbsness?

I tell myself she must have a really big head to trick myself into thinking I don't care when she doesn't notice me ;~).

KatnotCat

"I know it’s become sort of cliche to say this, but men pay for sex all the time. If he were dating a girl, he’d spend all kinds of money taking her out for dinner and drinks and buying her gifts and whatnot, and in this arrangement he gets to cut the bullshit.."

So by cut the bullshit, you mean the emotional attachments and interests that distinguish "dating someone" from "having sex with someone," yes?

aswedishfish

In response to Dude's answer to #1, it makes sense that it's subjective, just like it is for women. So much so that some men don't even like their balls played with, at least according to some I've known... This may be something for future Dude ruminations, since I have a hard time understanding balls in general.

Monkey

@aswedishfish No, seriously, balls make me feel like I failed Sex 101. What is the deal with balls? Do you just...hold them? Firmishly? (I guess maybe that's Sex 102?)

allifer

@Monkey You make up fake Cosmo sex tips about them mostly. "Encircle his man-lumps with your Scrunchie." "Men love variety in bed! Gently drag a comb across his sac."

Titania

@Monkey If you're with a guy who likes having them played with (which is the first thing you should ascertain) the sky is pretty much the limit! They're tougher than you think, though you should approach with caution (i.e. don't make any movements like you might accidentally hit them in the balls) and work up to whatever level of contact he enjoys. Think of them like tiny, not particularly attractive breasts--you can massage them, squeeze them, pull on them, lick them, etc. As a general gauge, don't use any more pressure than you would want used on your boobs, and you need permission to bite or scratch. Key moves: some guys really like when you pull them gently away from the penis, which is usually best in combination with the head of the penis being in your mouth; you can also work in a little taint action with the knuckle of your middle finger and use your thumb and index finger to keep playing with the balls. If you remember those Chinese stress balls that you rolled in your hand that were really popular at one point? Think that sort of motion, but do NOT try to twist them actually all the way around; that can actually do some damage. Also, body positioning is important here--if you're kneeling or he's leaning over you, you're good, but if he's lying on his back, try to get your knees as close as you can to his body so that your weight is centered and resting on your heels, not out over his body where you will be propping yourself up via your back muscles, because if you have one hand on his shaft and the other one on the balls--well, you're out of hands! So make sure you don't need one to stay upright! Men who complain that their jaw gets tired from oral sex, incidentally, have NO FREAKING CLUE how much work it is to coordinate lips, teeth, tongue, gag reflex, grip, balance, and then add whatever you're doing to his balls, taint, or ass with the other hand. Just commit yourself to the process and be proud of your own prowess!

Monkey

@allifer Ah! Scrunchie! Check. So that's why I'm supposed to be using my thong as a substitute scrunchie, then? *makes note on Balls, What the Fuck to Do With Them index card*

Monkey

@Titania Ok, that is actually helpful, like i just had the helpful older sister i never had tell me what was what, only i didn't have to be embarrassed about it because we are strangers on the internet instead of sitting in our childhood bedroom! so thank you!

I'm Not Rufus

I think every dude is going to have different preferences, but gentle touching is probably the best place to start, and you should be cautious and look for a lot of feedback when you're escalating from there. Remember that the skin has lots of good feelings and can withstand a lot of pressure, but that pressure on the testicles themselves can be painful (scratching your balls involves scratching the skin but not the testes). These things vary a lot by person, but I'd say that the average boob I've encountered is more tolerant of pressure than testicles.

hairspin

@Titania
Awesome awesome awesome

allifer

@Monkey Yes, exactly! If my memory serves me correctly it goes something like: Scrunchie around the balls, thong as substitute Scrunchie, his necktie as substitute thong, your pet snake (you definitely have one, right?) as substitute necktie, and I hope you remembered the fake rubber snake which will be standing in for your pet snake (worst case scenario: pretend a tube of Pringles is your pet snake.) It's been a while since I've read Cosmo though.

Lumpy Space Princess

@Titania TMI time... what about the dude like my ex who had super hangy kind of balls... I didn't know what to do with all that extra skin and space! it was just awkward, especially because the small number of times I actually tried to 'engage' with them, he seemed uncomfortable about it... anyone, anyone?

Monkey

@allifer Goddamit I don't think my fella even owns a necktie. HOW CAN I BE A GOOD LADY IF I CAN'T WEAR A NECKTIE AS A THONG.

randummy

@Monkey Do NOT watch Whitney Cummings on Netflix watch instantly.

You will never think of balls without laughing again. She get's pretty annoying after a while (most stand up comics do), but she's also a pretty funny comic. And she loves (to make fun of) balls!

I'm Not Rufus

@Lumpy Space Princess I meet your TMI and raise you a million! Everyone else is duly warned.

For starters, hangy-ness is mostly a function of temperature. If his balls are really dangling, that means the temperature outside his body is high, not that he's just a dangler. Go swimming with him off the coast of Maine and he will definitely not be hanging low.

More to the point, the skin is the good stuff! I mean, I can't comment on how appetizing it is to ladies. But, from my (possibly representative) gentlemanly perspective, the point of "paying attention to the balls" is about paying attention to the sac, not about paying attention to the balls themselves. It's a really vulnerable-feeling area of the body and it's easy to get sensory overload, so don't be shocked if any given gentleman still wants you to lay off, especially if he's trying to last during sex. But simply lightly brushing the skin in any direction with your fingertips can feel AMAZING. Gently tugging away from the shaft is also super. In the shower, you can try lathering your hands with soap and running them over the whole kit and the kaboodles with moderate pressure. Like I say, all of this feels like WHOA SWEET JESUS and it might be too much for him (or might be best only in very brief doses), but it's such a gold mine if done properly that I think it's definitely worth some repeated tries in different contexts with lots of feedback.

Ok, now I can never meet any of you in real life.

Monkey

@I'm Not Rufus "Ok, now I can never meet any of you in real life."

Perhaps. But think of the service you have done your brethren here, good sir. A worthy sacrifice, no?

I'm Not Rufus

@Monkey I hope so! Plus I'm not exactly convinced any of you were itching to hang out with me before I became Guy Who Talks About Balls, so I guess it's not a huge loss.

Lumpy Space Princess

@I'm Not Rufus OH, Not Rufus, I could just kiss you (if I weren't thinking so much about ball skin... or should that make me want to kiss more?!?!)! That was wonderful TMI, and I shall never hop into bed with a fella again without your words echoing in my mind: "the skin is the good stuff!"

Pound of Salt

"Ride his dee" hahahahah that makes me feel good about these times we live in.

b3k
b3k

#1 I echo what this Dude says -- you can do pretty much anything (although watch the teeth) but at least do _something_ beyond lying there going "look at me I'm so pretty!"...

Judith Slutler

@b3k do women actually do that? :( :( :(

b3k
b3k

@Emmanuelle Cunt yeah, the dreaded "deadfish." Which of course makes any dude who's not a monster desperately NOT want to have sex with you anymore, because who the hell wants to have sex with somebody who doesn't seem like she's enjoying it, and then she gets really confused when you break up with her because she apparently thought that was how you were supposed to have sex, etc.

Judith Slutler

@b3k :( x infinity. I didn't know that was actually a thing.

b3k
b3k

@Emmanuelle Cunt Then you're probably not bad in bed!

Tuna Surprise

@Emmanuelle Cunt
Have you seen the Paris Hilton sex tape? She's 100% disengaged from the sex. I remember watching it and feeling much, much better about my performance.

Judith Slutler

@Tuna Surprise Oh man. I totally forgot about that. It made me so sad!

atipofthehat

@Emmanuelle Cunt

They always do this, right?

allthecuteshit

@b3k @Emmanuelle Cunt I'm convinced that those women have submission fantasies, but, as submissives, are turned off by actually having to put into words what they want.

b3k
b3k

@allthecuteshit goddammit now somebody tells me! All this time I thought they were just lazy

thebestjasmine

Doesn't everyone remember when Paris dated her professor on Gilmore Girls and how weird and creepy it was? Girl, this would be you. No matter how awesome he seems, it's weird and creepy for a professor to date a student, and it's an asshole move for you to try to date someone that has a girlfriend, whether or not she's "overseas."

Also, girl in #4, he doesn't want to hang out with you alone because he has a girlfriend and he knows that you want to jump his bones. I don't know why you think he hasn't been honest with you: maybe he does want to be your friend, but knows that it's not a good idea to hang out with you alone, since he has a girlfriend.

heb
heb

@thebestjasmine Remember how disappointed Coach and Tami were after Julie slept with her TA on Friday Night Lights?! Don't make Coach throw a tricycle again!!

dracula's ghost

@heb HA HA HA HA HA

"When you sleep with your professor, you make Coach Taylor throw a tricycle."

WORDS TO LIVE BY

leonstj

@thebestjasmine Now that you put it that way - he's an asshole for being willing to sleep with a student, she's an asshole for not caring he has a girlfriend - maybe they're actually great for each other!

raised amongst catalogs

@thebestjasmine And he died and she threw him a wake. Awkward.

melis

Oh God why did I pick last week to start watching FNL? Oh well, I suppose it's just a reminder that on the Internet, you're never safe from spoilers.

heb
heb

@melis They're ... code names.

dracula's ghost

@heb HA HA! Yes..."Coach Taylor" stands for...Tim...Riggins. And "throws a tricycle" means "drinks a beer and is amazing." So you are SAFE

drunkennoodle

@melis don't worry, there is so much more joy ahead of you, you won't even care that you knew about that already! I am jealous of people who are experiencing the magic for the first time!

dracula's ghost

maybe the dude from the final letter doesn't want to be friends with someone who thinks his new girlfriend who he obviously likes is "super ugly" and "anorexic" and "a ditz." Or even just someone who knee-jerk loathes any vagina-having human who dares to sleep with someone she herself once slept with. I'm just trying to put myself in his position, where someone I once briefly slept with called my new awesome boyfriend horrific sexist names, and, yeah, I think my main thought would be "phew, I dodged a bullet by getting out of THAT."

Also, please, 21 year old girls of America, please stop trying to sleep with your professors. You think you "know" him, after a few months of watching him trying to get a bunch of kids to say coherent things about Napoleon or whatever?? That shit has nothing to do with him in real life. I'm a professor, and I know. If he is anything like literally every one of my colleagues, he leaves the classroom, loosens his tie, goes home, pours a drink, and then hangs out with his actual friends, and has conversations with them that don't involve endless series of leading rhetorical questions, and the whole time he's thinking "AAAAAHHHH GROWNUP DISCOURSE, THANK GOD"

GIRL, put it from your mind!!! If he's a decent dude you will just embarrass yourself, and if he acts on it he is a total skeeze and probably not a very good professor.

oeditrix

@dracula's ghost
YES to all that. Also, regarding her impression that he's giving her "signals": now that I teach undergrads I know that it can be really hard to maintain boundaries, especially when you feel genuinely simpatico with a student. It's even worse when they're attractive, as they sometimes are, or seem to have a crush on you - you have to keep VERY rigid boundaries. Sounds to me like this guy is a pretty young professor who hasn't quite gotten the hang of it yet.

(I made a similar mistake of misinterpreting "signals" when I was in grad school - and god was it embarrassing when his gf turned up to give me a well-deserved smackdown.)

dracula's ghost

@oeditrix Ugh!!! Yes, it's true that the boundaries can be hard, especially if the student is bright and good in class, because then you're so GRATEFUL to them for being smart and doing their part to keep the class from being a total disaster, so you want to make sure they know what a good job they're doing, so maybe you go overboard with the smiling and the confiding tone in office hours, and, since they are TWENTY ONE YEARS OLD, they have no ability to parse what's happening and just think "LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE BONERS" and you are like "oh dear god i'm so sorry, NO."

no offense to 21 year olds. We were all one once, and similarly had no idea what we were doing. I shudder to think of my 21 year old self. My motto should have been "When in doubt, and when 21 years old, DON'T DO ANYTHING"

TheRisottoRacket

@dracula's ghost UGH yes, I was so disgusted by the last girls portrayal of her friends new girlfriend. We lady gotta stick together, so be nice!

melis

"I don't care for her appearance and she therefore empirically does not deserve the man-object I have earned for being non-anorexic and non-super ugly."

dracula's ghost

@melis this girl and Ugly Dude should get together! Wait, would that work?? I can't figure out the math in my head

Magpie Shinies

@oeditrix : Isn't it funny that he's obviously a young professor, mid-30s, and she keeps talking about how OLD he is? I just turned 37 yesterday, and it gives me The Sad.

melis

"You're so old. You're so goddamn old. Tell me how old you are."

"I'm 42."

"Ohh."

"I'm almost 43. I was born in 1967."

"Oh my God that's crazy old."

"I voted for Dukakis."

"I don't even know who that is, oh my Goddd, you're so ooold."

dracula's ghost

@Magpie Shinies I know, it's like when I was bored and looked at "casual encounters" on craigslist, and every single ad that wanted an "older woman" specified that this meant "28-35." What?! That can not be! You boys don't know what you're taking about, damn kids these days!!!

dracula's ghost

@melis legit ref. "I'm older than every major league baseball player, except maybe Jamie Moyer"

melis

@dracula's ghost JESUS YOU'RE SO OLD

Magpie Shinies

@dracula's ghost GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!! *shakes cane*

Magpie Shinies

@melis This both made my day AND made me want to have a drink!

RK Fire

@dracula's ghost: Oh man, I think I need to think "LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE BONERS" more often, even though I'm not 21.

oeditrix

@Magpie Shinies Haha I know right? My students were like 8 when 9/11 happened. Scary.

The thirties, such a glamorous age. Too old to look young, too young to get any respect. ;)

slutberry

@dracula's ghost And yet, even when we KNOW that, we will still hope against hope that we are the one exception to the rule...

dracula's ghost

I also thought the Dude's call that men pay for dates so we should all just be prostitutes was bullshit.

Judith Slutler

@dracula's ghost Yeah no it totally is bullshit. Misogynist bullshit!

But that lady should still fuck the guy for money imho

dracula's ghost

@Emmanuelle Cunt I agree. I would absolutely fuck this guy for $500, in this situation, NO QUESTION. I'm just saying, it has nothing to do with men paying for dates (?? first of all, what decade is this again??) so we are all hookers anyway so just skip the date and go straight to the prostitution.

Ay.lola.lolita!

@dracula's ghost let's cut the boy some slack. He is only saying what men, most men, really think when they invite us to dinner. I cant believe women over 30 years old are still so in denial about this. Cheers.

dracula's ghost

@Ay.lola.lolita! sounds like you've had a rough time in your dating life.

KatnotCat

@Ay.lola.lolita! I don't know what has happened in your life, but I am very sorry.

insouciantlover

@Ay.lola.lolita! oh honey :(

melis

@Ay.lola.lolita! Don't be ridiculous, no one wants to sleep with women after 30.

insouciantlover

@melis true. It's all dried up down there.

melis

@insouciantlover If you can even still find it.

wee_ramekin

@melis Plus I've heard that women over 30 have even more Opinions than the 21-year old undergrads. And who really goes out on dates to hear women's opinions, amirite?

Ay.lola.lolita!

@dracula's ghost @insoucianlover et all: spoken like typical North American White "feminists", pitying the poor disenting female soul! Please, You "girls" have no idea about my life at all. I do have an opinion that you disagree with. I stand by it 100%. Eight out of ten men will buy you dinner and spend money on you because he wants to get inside you. You don't want to believe that? You women think that that doesn't or hasn't happen to you? You are so so superior to most women, right I forget! All the men that ever dated you have bought dinner and gifts for your precious, evolved mind only! Bravas! And " honey!" I do have some Machu Picchu properties, I'd like to sell you all....

randummy

@Ay.lola.lolita!

I wonder what the numbers truly are... Lola, where do you live? I also think that may factor into it. I want to say it's 7/3 at the least.

And as for "precious, evolved mind only"... heck I wouldn't want a romantic friend with no prospect of sexy times. It's not an either or, they are complementary.

"Get inside you" gah, the gives me the squicks! I do NOT think only two out of every 10 men have this as an agenda in the way you seem to be phrasing it. But... yes, there is a lot of outreach/education that needs to be done out there in the badlands. "Getting inside of me" is frickin awesome, but not the way you mean, that dude will NEVER get inside of me, trust.

We need to alert the womanhood to freeze these men out til they change their ways, and learn the fruits of paying attention to life. Until you work on being a good person... NO PUSSY! Everyone needs a little motivation in life.

melis

Why...why are they "honey" in quotation marks? What does that mean!

melis

@melis Is it because they're racist?

randummy

@melis no melis, it is not because they are racist, it's because they are quoting/throwing back a previous "honey" in heavy sarcasm.

Like:

>Oh honey.

>>Don't you honey me, "honey"!

(but there was make-up sex later, I heard, on a rotating bed or something, I took a pill I found, so I don't remember much.)

But yes, probably they are racist/reverse-racist/going-too-far-overboard-on-the-otherside-trying-not-to-be-racist. It's hard to get it right.

Just like I was trying hard not to be sexist, so I gave dudes the benefit of the doubt, like, no, totally, it's at *least* a 50-50 ratio of cool dudes to skeezey dudes, even though I know that sadly if you really take the whole population into account, not just hairpin readers and daters of hairpin readers the numbers might not be so cheerful. Like, it's one thing to live in a bubble, it's another to recognize that it's a bubble, and it's yet another to grow the bubble and make it spread outwards, so that it's now the bigger bubble, and the other bubble is such a little bubble that it's just a blip.

Snowy

@Ay.lola.lolita! Hey, you don't want people to assume shit, don't assume we're all freaking white by default either. Ugh.

randummy

@randummy but to make myself clear, I'm not sure the ladies are doing so much better. I mean Bachmann. Is she just a hairpin lady waiting to happen? Will she have a life event and one day be like, oh my god, let me tell you how I used to be like? Then I realized my husband was gay, and we just weren't meant to be together and I did deserve to ride the dee with a guy who wasn't just doing it as awful "therapy" to get thru. But in my own defense my mom married a guy after my parents got divorced and they had 9 kids and I kind of got lost in the shuffle, so I went to a kibbutz to find myself (oh the stories I could tell about that! but I never will) and ORU just totally messed with my head after that. Then I started thinking the pope was the antichrist (really, I thought that!) But now that I have good sex on the regular my migraines have gotten much better, and I don't think the pope is the antichrist anymore!

Ok, that will probably never happen... some sheep you gotta just accept as lost.

dracula's ghost

@Ay.lola.lolita! Holy shit!!!!! You have had a terrible romantic life! I am legitimately saddened by your insane misogynist rage, because it's clear men have treated you like shit. I'm honestly sorry, dude, because dating men CAN be really wonderful and it sounds like you have not experienced that. I hope you do one day.

Bubbles

For some reason I would also like to read answers to question #2 from Dan Savage and Sugar. And bargain up, young lady. $500 is actually kind of an insulting offer. Unless you are in Akron.

itmakesmewonder

@Bubbles Ditto about Dan and Sugar and double ditto about rural prices.

Lola

@itmakesmewonder I read a Sugar about a similar situation, and this part of the letter made me think of her response: "Should I do this??? If you say no ... can you make an effort to please make it about something other than what it will mean to me after it's over? i.e., self-esteem ruined, can I live with being a whore, who am I, blah blah blah. That argument really isn't cutting it for me right now. And if you say yes, can you tell me how not to have it mean those things to me after it's over?"

No one can tell you how to make any encounter mean/not mean something. I think that last line might be the most telling of the letter writer's real feelings here. If she thinks, deep down, agreeing to this will hurt her self-esteem, it's not the right choice. But she's the only person who can answer that.

Lola

@Lola I found the column: http://therumpus.net/2011/01/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-62/

itmakesmewonder

@Lola Thank you for finding that. And rereading LW#2's letter made me sad about it again. Jesus.

itmakesmewonder

@Lola Also . . . "You should be able to take money for sex and be fine with it afterward" does seem a bit like oppressive male wish-fulfillment to me.

Lola

@itmakesmewonder After his response to 2, I stopped reading the Dude's answers and just focused on the questions.

Ay.lola.lolita!

@itmakesmewonder it is more than okay to take money for sex. But make it a good deal for you, for gods sake. 500 is okay but only for one hour!

Lola

@Ay.lola.lolita! I don't think that taking money for sex is inherently wrong; I just don't think it's right for everyone. And the letter writer didn't seem convinced that it was right for her.

Lily Rowan

@Ay.lola.lolita! and @Lola -- you two realize it looks like Fight Club up in this thread, right?

Anyway, I totally think that if you think it's a bad idea (and the letter writer seems to), then you shouldn't take cash for fucking. There's no going back on it.

itmakesmewonder

@Ay.lola.lolita! For sure, for sure, it's definitely okay to do.

I mean the idea that every lady should be able to be okay with doing that, the expectation that it's some emotional hurdle every lady can get over, is kind of . . . Gross, and kind of like telling someone with cancer, "You can beat this!" when it's not really about willpower, is it.

Ay.lola.lolita!

@Lola You are right. While it might be okay to take money in exchange for sex, it is most definitely not for everyone. It could be the beginning of a very slippery slope into emotional hell.

whateverlolawants

@Ay.lola.lolita! Lola party up in dis thread

oeditrix

Professor-infatuated girl, get over it. Seriously. The "signals" this guy is giving you are a combination of being horny for his long-distance gf and being a brand-new professor who is still learning how to maintain appropriate boundaries with his students. Now that I teach college students I realize that yes, you occasionally feel attracted to them because duh, they're young and beautiful, and sometimes the classroom/office hours situation makes it hard to hide. But please realize it's a common occurrence and it doesn't mean he wants to fuck you for real.

If he DOES have intent-to-fuck, he is himself a fuck who is willing to cheat on a gf and exploit a power imbalance at the same time. Get this in your head: 99% OF PROFESSORS WHO CHEAT WITH STUDENTS ARE SERIAL CHEATERS. They have a new crop of nubile students every year to choose from, all smitten with the smart and dashing older man who makes them feel special in class. I went to grad school with these guys, and guess what? Their wives and girlfriends are not the happiest bunch. Yeah, I've heard of exceptions, but I've never met any myself.

Quinciferous

@oeditrix Amen to all that. I swear I have known the letter writer, the professor, and the conveniently out-of-country girlfriend, but I've never known the exceptions.

ALSO: If he DOES have intent-to-fuck, he is himself a fuck. Repeat, mantra-like, for it's the truth!

oeditrix

I have a friend who did a money-for-sex thing with an ex-boyfriend once. The only thing that made it squicky was that he turned around and used it to hurt her feelings later. That had everything to do with their relationship, but still, make sure this guy isn't going to project his sexual issues all over you--or if he does, that you won't care.

shantasybaby

@oeditrix Truth. She can't be the least big conflicted about it because it could bite her in the ass (he embarrass her with the info, either privately or -much worse-publicly) and in that case, she will need thick (ass?)skin.

I also personally wouldn't do it unless I thought I would get SOME pleasure out of it, even if it is just freaky sex kicks from getting to play prostitute. If her first time with him lacked any good points AND nothing about the scenario is exciting to her, that would make it a no for me. Obvs, plenty of people make sex their business and don't get off on it (just like I don't get get off on checking out books to people) BUT since that doesn't appear to be an actual career path she's seeking but rather a one time thing, she's gonna have to do some mental prep and think of it more than just a paycheck- without the right attitude, I think it could fuck her up.

Slapfight

Oh number 2: How would you feel about yourself after? What if he at some point he gets angry at you and posts on the internet/tells your friends/family etc that you were once his whore? If that won't make you feel bad, then go for it. Best of his life or no, what a shitty thing to offer someone you supposedly care about. If he really were a friend, he'd offer you a legal way to help you, like cleaning his house or something. Just know things like this never stay buried.
There is the potential for future blackmail here, and also it's illegal. Not that I think it should be.
I don't know you or this man, but my gut tells me he's not to be trusted.
If all this doesn't worry or bother you, then go ahead.

MrComment

@Slapfight Yeah, I don't know about the kind of guy who would do this. It seems like some kind of power trip, ego thing. Someone who'd offer that probably has some serious issues with being rejected.

itmakesmewonder

@MrComment Word, and I also wonder if the fact that she was . . . freewheelin' and spontaneous and whatever during their sex makes him assume he'll be able to . . . Uh, do some freaky things. And how can you relax and be your freest, spontaneous-est self when there's literally money on the table?

She's like his manic pixie dream girl here and I wonder if whatever product she delivers won't live up to his illustrious memories and cause some fallout.

Slapfight

@MrComment Yeah. I was instantly skeeved out reading this letter. And I used to make fetish clothes and have been to some fetish parties, but surpringly enough, all partes involved are mutually respectful. This guy doesn't seem that way. It feels like a creepy power trip.

Ellie

@Slapfight I feel like what's a "creepy power trip" to some sounds kind of hot to others (like me). She's not repelled by him, just disinterested. I also think it sounds like she really wants to do it and just wants to be talked into it.

Slapfight

To me, it sounds like the money is too hard to say no to, but she's not completely comfortable. Whether she claims her feelings in the future are of no consequence, they really are. If it were just "kind of hot" to her, then she wouldn't be asking for reasons to do or not do it. Does it not seem weird to you that after she shut a guy down that he offers to pay her a lot of money when she's in a tight spot? I just want her to weigh all the possible consequences first, figure out what she's ok with and proceeding from there. Kink is NOT the issue here.

HunnyBee

@Slapfight Agreed wholeheartedly. I think A Dude's advice on this one was ignorant and superficial. The very fact that she is posing this question and phrasing it the way that she did shows that she has some major doubts about whether it is a good idea. If I broke off sexual contact with some guy because I didn't like it and it wasn't enjoyable, and then he came back with "Well what if I pay you FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS," I think I'd vomit in my mouth a bit and then land my knee in his junk. Dude is a creeper and he's wanting to knock you down a peg for his own bizarre ego trip.

Slapfight

@HunnyBee YES!

Hooplehead

@HunnyBee Yes, the payment arrangement seems like a last-ditch effort on the guy's part to hold on to some sort of a relationship with her. I'm not sure that I see this coming out of a good place, even if it could be financially beneficial for her. I think that it has potential to get really ugly when even his money can't get him what he wants with her.

HunnyBee

@Hooplehead Right. The question isn't "is it ever OK to have sex for money" so much as "is it a good idea to sleep with THIS PARTICULAR DUDE who is willing to manipulative your financial straits in order to continue a sexual relationship that you don't want, and who apparently has no qualms boning a girl who is not into it."

MrComment

@HunnyBee The more I think about it, the more I realize that this guy is just a horrible person. She fucked him on her terms, now he wants to fuck her on his. The best thing to do when you realize you're dealing with a horrible person is to just get the hell away, whether it's a lover, boss, friend of a friend, whatever. Be civil in the future, but keep your distance. I don't buy that changing cities means she won't ever see him again. It's not like $500 is a life-changing amount of money. Put him in your rear-view mirror.

randummy

@Slapfight

"Does it not seem weird to you that after she shut a guy down that he offers to pay her a lot of money when she's in a tight spot?"

THIS.

In a nutshell.

allthecuteshit

@Slapfight I reluctantly agree that this man isn't to be trusted. friends aren't johns. don't mix that shizz.

Amanda@twitter

@Slapfight Also good to keep in mind is that, even if she DOESN'T fuck him for money, he might still tell people she did! When I was in college I was a bit of a slut, and one dude who I did NOT sleep with went around telling people all about the wild sex we were supposedly having! KILLER ANGER ensued, and I think I got people to believe the truth, but still. He didn't care that it wasn't true! And this john may not either!

Lola

#4 I can't remember where I read this, but it made me feel better when I was agonizing over why someone I loved would pick someone who (I felt) was not as "good" as me: romantic love is not a competitive sport. Maybe I'm projecting, but it seems like some of your pain is coming from the fact that you feel you are prettier/smarter/more fun than the new girl. This girl's attractiveness and intelligence have no reflection on you at all. I know this sucks, and I hope you feel better soon.

melis

Well if dating isn't a zero-sum game, then there are a lot of kneecaps out there that are going to need apologies.

naptime

@Lola It's Sugar! It's always Sugar. She's the best.
http://therumpus.net/2010/05/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-38-romantic-love-is-not-a-competitive-sport/

Lola

@naptime Yes! Sugar always knows.

E
E

I thought I only wanted to tell my horror story to Lady 3, but then I thought of a good analogy for Lady 1: What makes a good cook? Reading, practice and a love of food. So if you like sex, know where the parts go, and do it frequently, I think you can pick up the knack.

likethestore

The answer to #2 is making me so angry I want to drive to New York (or wherever) just to punch the Dude in the balls. Like I'm so mad I can't even come up with a coherent reply right now.

Letter writer, your self-worth is worth so much more than $500.

MrComment

@likethestore He does like to have his balls worked on.

katherine

@likethestore I know, right? And the proper answer to whether you'd eat the shit sandwich or a steak is to pick neither and go buy some fucking hummus or something, JEEZ.

...Pretend that analogy works.

atipofthehat

@MrComment

Edith must have done a lot of work behind the scenes to get Don Draper to write an advice column.

groggette

@likethestore I'm sorry, I wasn't aware self-worth was tied up in one's vagina.

sophi

@likethestore Good to know that it's apparently impossible to have self-worth after accepting money for sex. Awesome.

likethestore

@groggette @groggette It's not about vaginas, it's about letting a man (a total jerk of a man, it sounds like) have that control and power over you.

likethestore

@sophi This is not about sex workers. That's a totally different ballpark.

Being They're

@likethestore Yeah, I think The Dude missed the signal that the friend/ex-hook-up aspect makes it worse, not better in some important ways. Anonymity exposes real sex workers to physical risks but does a lot to protect their reputations. Even strippers use stage names. So having a guy (jerk or non) be able to pair your real life with a bit of sex work is gonna be more future anxiety than it seems at first.

katherine

@likethestore Seriously. The odds that this guy is trying to be all sex-positive and forward-thinking and reasonable are nil, especially since the letter-writer mentions that she's "unemployed and broke," something the dude probably knows. All signs indicate he's trying to take advantage of her to get laid some more, which -- really, you're going to advocate rewarding him for that?

likethestore

@katherine I'm glad someone else gets what I'm saying. I'm really not saying DOWN WITH PROSTITUTES at all. But in this specific situation, I think the letter writer is going to feel bad about herself after.

likethestore

@katherine Or maybe I'm just projecting because once a boyfriend gave me $20 for a cab after sexytimes and I felt really weird about it.

melis

@likethestore Why, was it one of those old $20 bills that look counterfeit?

Titania

Dear #2--I faced exactly the same quandry (but for significantly more money! don't sell yourself short, at least!) and emailed a rather well-known sex worker blogger about this exact same question. She said to me, "Imagine the guy you want to marry one day, in all his perfection and all of his flaws, someone you want to be with for the rest of your life. Do you want to have to tell him this? Or do you want to be faced with lying about this to the love of your life?" When I thought about it that way, I couldn't go through with it. Basically, it's this: life is short, and circumstances can change quickly. $500 isn't a lot of money, but that's a decision you can't take back. Don't worry about whether or not he'll tell anyone--worry about whether or not YOU'LL ever have to.

shantasybaby

@Titania That is an interesting way to look at it- it's true that alot of men would be made uncomfortable to know that their perfect lovable lady sold some sex BUT I don't think the alternative is to actually lie unless they -for some reason- straight asked you "have you ever had sex with a friend for money?" which really isn't that likely to be asked. Although I enjoy hearing sex details of my SO's past, he's not nearly as keen and I don't consider it lying that I don't tell him every detail of ever tryst I've ever had (for his sake) and I don't think a one time monetary exchange qualifies as something you'd be obligated to tell him about, either.

Titania

@shantasybaby My gauge for whether or not it's okay to lie about something (including lying by omission) is definitely "How problematic would this be if the truth came out later?" and I bet that would be a BIG problem for most relationships. I like to think that I'd marry the sort of guy who'd be okay with whatever experiences I'd had in the past--but then I think, would I really want to marry a guy that was okay with THAT? Not really. The larger point she was making is that life goes on, and you wont be this young or broke forever, but you won't ever be able to take that back once it's done. Sort of a moral tattoo, if you will. And frankly, anyone who considers $500 to be "major money" cannot be anything other than extremely young.

dabbyfanny

@Titania Well said. In this day and age, you HAVE to assume that sooner or later, everything is public knowledge. As long as you are fine with everyone knowing what you did, including future partners, mothers, kid sisters, then go for it.

KatieWK

@Titania That's kind of bullshit. Most adults have secrets or simply unspoken regrets about their past. I don't see why I should be compelled to share those things with my husband, and I've learned from prior relationships not to demand he share them with me.

If you can't imagine telling your future husband about a brief stint of prostitution because it might hurt his feelings, just don't tell him (assuming you're all clear on STI tests). If you can't imagine telling him because he'd leave you, ask yourself if he is actually a douche. If you can't imagine telling him because you'd feel ashamed of yourself and your decisions, then yeah, don't accept money for sex.

Lola

@Titania I'm not sure it's fair to assume youth based on that fact that $500 seems like a lot of money. I think $500 is a lot to many people at every age.

Kristen

@Titania I dislike that advice. I spent most of my early twenties hearing a little voice in my head every time I wanted to bone some dude that said, "But if you have sex with this guy, then your NUMBER will go up, and if your NUMBER goes up, then, someday, when you meet the guy you want to marry, you'll have to CONFESS your NUMBER and if it's too high, he will be grossed out and he won't love you anymore and you'll be doomed to be alone forever." And then one day I thought, "Why am I letting the imagined fallout of an imaginary conversation with an imaginary person dictate whether or not I'm allowed to have sex?" And that day, I decided that if that conversation ever came up, I was giving myself advance permission to either refuse to answer or to lie. That's right! I planned to lie to my imaginary future husband. What a whore.

As it happens, I have now been dating a guy for going on two years and he has never once exhibited the slightest curiosity my NUMBER, which is one of the many reasons that I love him.

Titania

@KatieWK Yeah, the last one is the important one. And that's the one that made the difference for me. I didn't want to grow up and have to tell someone I loved that I'd done something like that, because honestly, I don't want to grow up and marry a guy who is cool with prostitution. "A brief stint of prostitution" rings a little bit like "A little bit pregnant." You are, or you were--there's no "kind of."

KatieWK

@Titania Eh, call me heartless, but I'd distinguish between a brief stint of less-than-ideal sex for money and a lifestyle built around sex work. I'd also make the distinction between someone who got a little bit pregnant and had a little bit of an abortion vs. someone who had a kid, a fact you can't really keep from a new partner. I'm all for calling a spade a spade but I don't think one-time decisions should define your life in all future relationships.

no way

@Titania This reasoning sounds like virginity bullshit to me. Your prostitution flower is a sacred gift to be guarded, ladies.

insouciantlover

@KatieWK Aww, little abortions are just the cutest.

Mindpowered

@KatieWK I'm a little late to this thread, but KatieWK knocked it out of the park. I'd also like to point out as a dude who is married to an escort, that not all dudes will be hellishly judgmental about your past/or current decisions.

A few months in, she was upfront about it, and since I loved the person it didn't phase me.

Note to Dude: Dates don't equal sex, they may be steps on the road to sex, but they aren't a cash exchange for sex (that's something different. )

allthecuteshit

@Titania wow. well I guess it's a good thing that there are people like you in the world, because that leaves all the awesome, feminist, forward thinking men who are okay with "THAT" for women like me.
You can keep the traditionalists. I think I fuckin lucked out.
P.S. there's nothing wrong with doing "THAT".

Titania

@allthecuteshit Wow, are feminists all of a sudden not allowed to have ANY boundaries when it comes to their own, individual, sexual behavior? I didn't realize that was part of the bargain when I paid my tuition to a women's college, my NARAL/NOW/PP charitable donations, my bus tickets to march in DC, etc., etc., WHY SO JUDGY?? I am a dyed-in-the-wool, loud-and-proud feminist, but I don't believe that prostitution is empowering to women generally, and even if it is for some, most importantly, I realized that it would not be empowering to ME. What I got out of that warning was not something about my precious prostitution flower, it was a reminder that I was going to GROW UP someday, and that situations that seemed dire and solutions that seemed easy when I was 21 would potentially be things I would see very differently. I was offering the writer a way of thinking about the question that was helpful to me, because (like myself at the time) she wasn't interested in trying it out as a women's studies thought experiment, she was thinking about it because she was broke and trying to justify an easy way out. If this was something she was excited to do that she was sure would be empowering for her, she wouldn't have written in the first place.

NYnative

@Titania Totally agree. And I'd add, does being a feminist mean you have to be ok with prostitution? I missed that memo.

I'm totally with the person who said she wants to find this guy and punch him in the balls. Call me.

allthecuteshit

@Titania OF COURSE you're allowed to have boundaries when it comes to what you do. Sex work is not for everyone, nor should it be.
I applaud you and your woman's college, your protests in DC (certainly been to a few of those in my time), and all the other decisions YOU made. I don't refer to what you've chosen to do in your life as THAT. I would also point out that, as a feminist, the idea that everything we do must "empower" us as women is a bit old fashioned. People have to do what they have to do, and while it's certainly POSSIBLE that she shouldn't do this, it sure as hell isn't because some dipshit dude is going to judge her for it later.

"but then I think, would I really want to marry a guy that was okay with THAT? Not really."

If you don't get why the wording and tone of this comment might be offensive to some people, I can't help you. But "THAT" is called sex work, and it's no longer required that you speak about it THAT way, if you decide to move forward into the modern era and use educated language about it.
P.S. referring to sex work THAT way makes you sound really, really young...

allthecuteshit

@NYnative Yes, to a certain extent, being a feminist means you have to be okay with sex work. It doesn't mean you have to ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE in sex work, but more or less being a feminist means not judging people based on what they do with their vaginas and not speaking disrespectfully of women who've made different decisions from you. Being a feminist is not just about choices, it's about respecting other women's choices.

NYnative

@allthecuteshit I would submit that it is possible to not be ok with prostitution without judging the people who do it. Obviously, it's not only women who get paid for sex so this is not ONLY a feminist issue. From what I understand, the vast majority of people who are involved in the sex trade are being exploited---they aren't $3,000/hr dominatrix (dominatrices?) or people who sell crocheted fetish gear on Etsy, etc. Most prostitution is tied to drug trade, gangs, human trafficking, money laundering, organized crime, the transmission of STD's, etc. So while one could make the argument that we all need to be ok with the entire industry because a small proportion are doing it purely out of the love of the job, I disagree. There are many shades of gray here and I for one am completely against, for example, teenage girls being kidnapped or sold into prostitution from their native countries. Now obviously this person is not being kidnapped and (I hope) she is of age and (I hope) not addicted to drugs or in debt to the mob or whatever. She does say that she is broke, implying desperation and also fear. So, to my mind, this asshole guy is taking advantage of her current mental and financial state for his own sexual needs---because based on what she said, she has never done or had the desire to get paid for sex before and has no plans to do it going forward. It doesn't sound like it turns her on, it sounds like she needs money. As far as I'm concerned, taking advantage of another person, regardless of the genders involved, whether it's for sex, money, your baseball card collection, information, ego validation, etc---is wrong. Period.

If she said, "I have no money problems and my life is great, but this dude offered to pay me for sex, and I think that sounds fun" I'd be like, ok, whatever floats your boat. But that's not the situation, and I don't believe that screwing this guy is the answer to her problems.

allthecuteshit

@NYnative I am a little late in my reply, but I think it's important that I do.
Whether or not it is possible for you to "not be ok with" sex work and not judge people isn't something I can speak to, but I do think that it seems highly unlikely. Whether or not you want to admit it, people who do things we're "not ok with" are diminished in our eyes.
Sex work is a feminist and gay activist issue for the most part, though humanitarians with a variety of passions have fought for sex workers rights.
What you understand about sex work seems limited. The "majority" of sex workers in the world are probably exploited, just as the "majority" of farmers in the world are grossly underpaid for their product, just as the "majority" of American students can't find their country on a map. If a LW wrote in and was considering becoming a strawberry farmer, would you be against it because of all the exploited strawberry farm workers in South America? They may be the majority in sheer numbers, but they're not the majority in terms of representation. Most sex workers in this country are not connected to crime, human trafficking, or drugs. Most are very careful about cleanliness and protection. And here's a statistic for you- most people are friends with a person who has engaged in sex work at one point or another and never even know it, because it is so stigmatized that many people don't feel comfortable even telling their closest friends about what they do.
Lastly, sex work is a service like cleaning a house or retiling a roof. If a friend offered me money to clean her house, because I was broke, would you assume I am desperate and afraid, and that I'm being taken advantage of?
Sex work usually DOESN'T turn sex workers on- of COURSE they do it for the money. Why the fuck do most people do their jobs? Not to get turned on! And that's ok. It's a profession like any other.
Look, I happen to believe that, in this case, sleeping with a friend for money could be a mistake, but when your arguments are packed with so much misinformation and carelessness when it comes to ACTUAL facts and reality, it becomes difficult for me to just sit by.
If you really want to know the facts, talk to these good people. http://stjamesinfirmary.org/

NYnative

@allthecuteshit I'm not really sure what your point is---that we should pretend sex work has no real life negative effects so that the people involved aren't stigmatized? IMO the best thing would for prostitution to be legalized so that sex workers would have access to legal, medical, and other resources, and it would also reduce the stigma, which I think is the least of these problems. But I wasn't just referring to American prostitution and that would not be a solution in most of the world.

I still don't think she should sleep with this dude for the money.

allthecuteshit

@NYnative No. My point is that almost every industry has negative aspects to it, and sex work has more of them largely because of society's general unwillingness to provide any sort of protection or legitimacy to those involved. If it wasn't for the stigma, legal and medical help WOULD be provided for sex workers. The stigma is DEFINITELY the main problem.
To lump sex workers in the U.S. in with sex slaves in third world countries makes about as much sense as talking about factory workers at American Apparel and prison workers in China in the same breath. There is no comparison. And YES human trafficking is appalling- but it's just a completely different fight.
I think she should sleep with the dude for money if she wants to. There aren't many ways to make 500 dollars in an hour or two.

b3k
b3k

@Emmanuelle Cunt Then you're probably not bad in bed!

b3k
b3k

btw "deadfish" is known as "sandbag" in some states...

fondue with cheddar

Yeah, I learned the hard way that when you date a cheater, you will probably get cheated on.

Then again, I also learned that when you date someone who isn't a cheater, you still might get cheated on.

Chesla

#3- You do NOT want to be the reason your professor breaks up with his girlfriend. Not just because it's not the decent thing to do, but because it would be unwise of you. If your professor breaks up with his girlfriend to be with you (and I doubt it would be a clean break- meaning, there will be overlap), you will most likely one day find yourself wondering what 21 year old in his class has got his eye while he's with you. Make the decision to act as two respectable people should. In my experience, things always work out for the best if you do.

Chesla

@Chesla I'd also like to add that a woman once dating my husband (I was in the process of divorcing him and didn't mind), but she never got over it. To this day she's jealous he might have feelings for me and it's her own fault for not waiting until we were officially done. Treat the other woman the way you would want to be treated so you can have some respect for yourself in the end.

dracula's ghost

@Chesla good call

theinvisiblecunt

@Chesla, hahaha I love this post. Act as two respectable people should! The best advice and all this column needs, but the next one's still gonna be called something like "Ask A Dude: Blowing bosses, fucking married men, and your boyfriend's other girlfriend" anyway. Random internet man, please give me permission to be a douchebag?

Better to Eat You With

@Chesla I would add that she'll need to wonder what 21 year old has his eye every semester for the duration of any relationship she has with him. If he's actually interested in her, he probably picks one out of each new crop.

Magpie Shinies

This is just my own story, completely anecdotal, and a little bitter....

My ex-husband, a tenure-track psych professor, actually had his students HELP him MOVE. Keep in mind that, this being a psych grad program, his students are almost exclusively female.

When we were still married, I'd get completely grossed out by how much he enjoyed being surrounded by all his students in social settings, with them hanging on his every word and jockeying for attention and influence. I witnessed more than one male prof, him included, let students buy drink after drink, leave gifts, etc. After a while, if I accompanied him to one of these social events, he would not only not introduce me, but actively herd his students to the far end of the room. It definitely affected our marriage, as he started to expect me to be more and more deferential, in addition to all the other crap. Yuck. When he started to believe his own hype (of course along with other serious problems), I was out. I have no doubts that he has convinced himself that it is OK to sleep with students.

Male professors, and I have known tons now by virtue of his profession, who sleep with students will continue to sleep with students, and there is no shortage of young and attractive females with stars in their eyes. And while there are always exceptions, they are just that - EXCEPTIONS. Generally this is about power and the profs' own ego. If you do date him, I hope you love the sound of his voice as much as he probably does.

Chesla

@Magpie Shinies well said! And good for you for leaving that egomaniac

Magpie Shinies

@Chesla

So happy I left! His prof dad was out of his gourd, too, and actually once ordered me to have male babies. But that's another story entirely...

(AND I don't want to make it sound like I'm blaming his students, which I am not is the least. He is the one is the power position, and it is up to him to set the tone for acceptable behavior.)

melis

Not to generalize, but all psych majors everywhere are exclusively emotionally damaged women with no sexual boundaries who think their roommates don't notice when they steal your beer, but I did.

insouciantlover

@melis This made me laugh and then think negative thoughts about psych majors I've known.

DrFeelGood

@Magpie Shinies As someone married to a very soon to be Psych professor... is it too late for an alternative career honey? Whenever I hear these stories I shoot him laser death rays for about a week... He tells me that "it's never going to happen" but I can see how it would be really easy to get sucked into the power/prestige thing of the fawning attentions of your female students, especially when you're in a field that garners little money or wider recognition.

aniktwo

@Magpie Shinies If it makes you feel any better my dad is a psych prof and it seems like he can barely contain his contempt for his students. I say that lovingly - he is an amazing guy. But for reals - young students are morons.

insouciantlover

Okay, while I'm not opposed to sex work in a totally theoretical way, like I really have no problem with it... I can't help but think, well, would I fuck someone for $500? And unlike a commenter above I don't think it has to be tied completely to your self worth, but you'll probably think of it as you get older.

I dunno. In my twenties I was mostly broke all the time and I definitely considered being an escort. Hell, just a few years ago I was willing to get all dominatrixy on some old dude's ass for $250/hour. But I guess in the end it came down to "would I rather be cheap or free?" I guess I'd rather be free.

dracula's ghost

@insouciantlover For me the fact that the dude is a friend and really this is sort of a "relationship" (rather than just a purely economical "job") makes the difference...I would do this if it were with a friend, but probably not with a stranger. Is that just a lame distinction? I don't know.

insouciantlover

@dracula's ghost I think that's a decent distinction. I mean hell, they already fucked! I just wanted to toss out some other thoughts to further muddle her decision making.

thebestjasmine

@dracula's ghost See, I feel the opposite: I think that a friend would be much more dangerous than a stranger. I think a friend could easily throw it in your face later, tell everyone you know, and use this against you, while a stranger wouldn't give a damn. Especially a friend who (it seems from the letter) kind of likes you, and will just grow to resent you.

shantasybaby

@dracula's ghost I don't think it's a lame distinction at all! In the LW's case, she has had sex with this person for free before, which I think is the main thing that makes this seem like the best possible scenario- she trusts him, that's huge. I believe all she has to do it own it and find something empowering and/or enjoyable about the situation so she doesn't backslide into negative "whore" thoughts.

Titania

@thebestjasmine Yeah, really. If her friend is really that generous and wants to help her out because he cares about her, he could write her a check. But he wants power over her, which he's going to get via sex, and she's going to regret it. I'm sorry, there's just no way to "own it" in these situations--even if she doesn't feel bad about doing it ultimately, she'll probably feel pretty bad about having to deal with the consequences in how her relationship with him unfolds and in her larger social circle if it gets out, which it absolutely will.

Ay.lola.lolita!

@thebestjasmine you are absolutely right. I speak from prsonal experience. Friend/john is a bad bad idea.

likethestore

@Titania Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted to say but I couldn't figure out how to say it.

Lily Rowan

@Titania YES. That is totally it. He could just give her some money -- hell, loan her some money -- if they are actually friends.

no way

@thebestjasmine But, he's the one who has a dirty secret - she wouldn't fuck him unless she got paid. HE looks like the ass.

randummy

@no way

Maybe she should do it, but take some compromising pictures, just in case?

HE looks like a dude who paid for sex... that's pretty common, lot's of "regular dudes" have done it at least once. SHE looks like the chick who SOLD sex, also pretty common, but "only for whores" (not a lot of "regular ie. nice, girls" have done it -- supposedly, though the numbers are probably higher than admitted to, but far more "usual" is the exchange made, but NEVER NEVER NEVER made explicitly. Ie, she fucks him, he helps her. He wouldn't help her if she didn't fuck him, she wouldn't fuck him if he didn't help her).

So, by "mainstream" standards, she "looks worse" then him... I think this is also why prostitutes usually get more grief with the law than johns.

So, if you do it... don't be a trusting soul ('cause if you really are, trust him to give you a loan already "for ol times sake!") but TAKE COMPROMISING PICTURES!

I'm thinking adult diapers? Truss him up in a ball gag? You said you let out your inner freak last time...

I think though in this situation, unless you LIKE the idea of breaking rules publicly, and embracing your sexual autonomy in a very taboo way, don't do it...

allthecuteshit

@thebestjasmine yes, this.

aniktwo

@thebestjasmine I don't really understand how people are worried he would throw it in her face? Unless he pays her with a cheque how on earth would he prove it? Deny deny deny.

thebestjasmine

@aniktwo He would/could say to her "Well, you're a fucking whore, because I paid you to have sex with me." And he would/could tell everyone that they both know that, and post it on her Facebook page, and lots of other places on the internet. Now, some people would be fine with that, but a hell of a lot of people would feel really shitty about a friend doing something like that, and wouldn't want the world to know about it, and would recognize that no matter how much you deny, some people are going to believe it, and that future employers will google you and find that shit out.

wee_ramekin

Can we talk about the pink, raging, musth-y elephant in LW #4's room, y'all?

Girl, you're straight up lying to yourself when you say "I want to be friends/hang out with him". No. No you do not. What you WANT is for him to girlfriend you. The level of rage in your letter directed toward him and the girl he is dating is not how a "friend" would feel about him or his new girlfriend.

Look, you said yourself that you thought he was perfect for you. And it sounds like you really enjoyed the time the two of you had together. It is totally, completely and 1,000% percent understandable that you're hurt, pissed off, and don't like the new girlfriend. It hurts like HELL when people don't love us the way we want them to. But please don't try to fool yourself into thinking you want to / can be friends with this dude. It would be far, FAR better for everyone involved if you absented yourself from this guy's life for the present. Don't try to be friends with him when you're clearly not ready: it makes you feel like shit, and it's certainly not fun for him to be around someone who is one enormous, pulsing quasar of hurt and rage.

I hope things get better soon, and I feel you, because I've been there. Hint though, it makes you sound like a HEINOUS bitch when you toss around terms like "super ugly" and "anorexic little ditz he's fucking". Like, it makes you sound super shallow and like someone I would want to dump for a 'super ugly' chick.

MrComment

@wee_ramekin Yeah, the phrase that sticks out to me is "he initiated." What does that mean? That because he initiated, he made some kind of unspoken promise to her? I get the sense that she's kicking herself because she wussed out and didn't go for it when it was there. I know I get frustrated when I have to make all of the advances and all of the phone calls.

randummy

@wee_ramekin

Yep. That one was obvious.

I think it's pretty safe to say you don't let your S.O. hang out with a former fuck buddy who hates your guts and still wants to be with him.

Am I wrong? That would definitely be a point of conflict in any relationship I was in. And I am big time NOT a controlling type or jealous chick. I have lots of trust in relationships, but I'd be like, nope. THAT ain't gonna happen.

insouciantlover

@wee_ramekin: (the reply button wasn't working) A-fucking-men.

Girl, you got dumped. This guy who you were fucking has a girlfriend now, like a real live girlfriend, not just some chick he's fucking (like you were) and he's happy with her or something, and he's going to be nice to you when he runs into you in public but honey child, get over it and move the fuck on with your life.

The best revenge is a life well-lived. Clinging to your hatred of his new girlfriend is just going to make you even more miserable. Look at all that energy you're wasting!

Lola

@insouciantlover I was thinking that, too. Her letter is SO ANGRY.

noodge

@insouciantlover : YES. move on. my bf's ex hangs on, calls him drunk, and does petty shit like rag on me, mainly because she's still struggling to move on (they've been broken up for 3 years now). Forget about it - get the calendar? and the gold stars? didn't we talk about this in a past thread? and reward yourself with Things To Spend Your Allowance On for not contacting or facebook stalking him each week. You'll get there. In the meantime, the girl is NOT the object of your frustration, and she has feelings and insecurities too. Ditto the "you sounds like a HEINOUS bitch" when you say those things.

Pound of Salt

"Ride his dee" hahahahah that makes me feel good about these times we live in.

zeytin

Letter writer 3: He isn't giving you signals he wants to date you, he's giving you signals he wants to cheat on his girlfriend-who-lives-in-another-country with you.

leonstj

Also, a note to all 19-23 year olds who want to date someone 35+:

This is probably (though, yes, not always) not a serious thing to the older person (genders can go either way on this). And if it is, there is a good chance they have severe maturity issues.

I know all people mature at different rates, and I'm kind of halfway-ish between those two age points but...I dunno, at only 29 I can't imagine what in the world I'd say to a 21 year old in the long conversations you have to have as a couple after the intial glow has worn off? I've met, through work, art, etc, a lot of really awesome people 8-10 years younger than I am, and I'm not even like, super-duper "grown-up-y" or anything but...

...I dunno. Time and life experience change a person a lot, and the difference between just starting your 20s and having been through a bunch of them is, well, it's kind of a lot? You deserve someone as young and inexperienced as you when you're young, and as you get older you deserve someone who knows what it's like to grow and change.

Unless it's just about fucking. In which case, fuck the bejeezus out of anyone wherein there is mutual sexual attraction.

Bittersweet

@leon.saintjean: Amen, dude. At 19 I dated a 28-year-old and a 32-year-old one summer (not at the same time). The latter wanted a more serious relationship than I did, and I sort of fell for the former, who (wisely) wasn't interested in anything long-term with a teenager. Instructive summer, but tough to live through.

Artressa Vandelay

@leon.saintjean: When I was in my early 20s and pretty much only dated dudes 5-8 years older. Even lived with one for a couple years. At that age it seemed like the guys that were a little older were a little less, um retarded. An then in my late 20s, a male friend of mine informed me that they they are all just as retarded at any age. HE said it, not me. I don't really believe it, but I think that mentality why some younger girls go for older guys.

Now (being somewhere between 29 and death) I tend to go a couple years younger. Who knew?

MrComment

@leon.saintjean I'm not sure I totally buy this. I've seen plenty of skeezy relationships, but it's generally more about the relationship than the age difference. Relationships don't necessarily have to be about intellectual completion or even mutual maturity. Some people just work together for whatever reason (even if it's only for a little while). If both people say they're happy, I'm inclined to take their word for it. There are plenty of other things to worry about.

In this case, it's the professor (with girlfriend!) thing that's weird. If there were a couple years between being his student and being his girlfriend, the age difference really wouldn't be that weird.

HunnyBee

@leon.saintjean After purveying the multitude of comments, I nominate you to be the next Ask a Dude. Unless you were this week's A Dude, in which case you're fired.

dracula's ghost

@HunnyBee TWO GREAT CALLS

I'm Not Rufus

@HunnyBee Thirded, LSJ would make a terrific A Dude. Edith!

leonstj

@I'm Not Rufus but if I'm an a dude then I can't comment! I need this to get me through brutal days at work. Plus, I may say a witty or smart thing once in a blue moon, but I have no bona fides to give relationship advice. Annnnnnd as poor Edith learned when my workwife forced her me to say hi even though I was too shy, I sometimes just get drunk and ramble about phillip roth and norman mailer and its weird.

leonstj

@I'm Not Rufus but if I'm an a dude then I can't comment! I need this to get me through brutal days at work. Plus, I may say a witty or smart thing once in a blue moon, but I have no bona fides to give relationship advice. Annnnnnd as poor Edith learned when my workwife forced her me to say hi even though I was too shy, I sometimes just get drunk and ramble about phillip roth and norman mailer and its weird.

naptime

@leon.saintjean But you would be so good! You can still just comment and pretend you didn't write it. In fact you'd have to, to keep your identity secret. And that could be kind of a fun game. You could stick up for your own advice when people trash you!

randummy

@leon.saintjean

Oooooh! You spazzed under pressure! I can so relate.

Double-post and freudian typo, plus anecdote about embarrassing social encounter! Trifecta! Please know this is totally forgivable and perhaps even endearing in a social context. Hope you can get more comfortable with the social do si do (and step to your left!)

I will now be looking to see if you suspiciously are defending a dude's advice... Which will probably be good advice and worthy of defending. But I like how the hairpin airs out all possible sides of a dilemma to really get a full 360 on a situation. Usually with a minimum of fighting and a maximum of respect tho there's a throwdown every now and again. But with folks around to make sure it doesn't get out of hand....!

Gordon Cole

Aside from the horrible misogyny that many commenters have already pointed out, the problem I really have with the answer to LW2 is this:

"Look at it like this — if you were an animal rights activist who was a vegetarian for ethical reasons, and someone came to you with a choice of eating one of those Japanese shit burgers, which an animal didn’t have to die to produce, or a steak, which an animal did have to die for, I bet you’d probably choose the steak over the shit burger."

Seriously?? If a vegetarian, who didn't eat animals because they were strongly, morally opposed to it, was offered either a steak or a meat-free alternative, they would choose the steak? How could that possibly be a thing that you would think?

This Dude is not a good Dude.

Pixley

@Gordon Cole I actually am a vegetarian for mostly ethical reasons, and I can tell you that I would take the shit burger in a heartbeat (a heartbeat the shit burger never had). I don't get this at all? It's a terrible analogy, I have no idea what is going on here. Honestly, I stopped really reading after that point because I assumed that this Dude has bad thought processes all around.

dracula's ghost

@Pixley I also agree I would take the shit burger and that this is a terrible analogy.

Lola

@dracula's ghost This Dude might be the worst dude, for me.

Katie Heaney

@Pixley Me too probably, but I'd also be like, "Why is this a choice I'm being forced to make? Where did I go wrong?"

KatnotCat

@Katie Heaney "I thought this was going to be a quiz show! Dear god, someone help me!"

Artressa Vandelay

@Katie Heaney: Shit burger for this vegetarian as well. I assumed it was a mistake on his part to write steak. It just seemed so out there.

Slapfight

@Katie Heaney Yes. I'd probably skip the damn meal. If the LW needs cash so desperately, is planning to move anyway and is not entirely comfy with sex for money, sell some belongings. It'll make moving easier.

marz

@Gordon Cole In fact, this could be a litmus test to find out if people are actually vegetarian. Me? I'd eat the shit burger. My brother's "vegetarian" girlfriend? She'd probably eat the steak.

FoxyRoxy

Second girl, ask him for twice as much and an hourly rate plan. The "men pay for sex all the time," thing is nonsense but I surely would let a man pay me for sex. I would also let someone pay me to eat, sleep, and watch movies.

isavedlatin

So now whenever I see an average looking dude on the street wearing sunglasses, I'm like, "hey, it's A Dude!"

atipofthehat

Know what your meal entitles him to
A HELPFUL GUIDE TO WHAT YOU WILL OWE

Fast food = Quick kiss
Diner or soda fountain = Girlfriend experience
Microbrewery = Pilsner action
Chain restaurant = Lingering kiss and squeeze
Trendy new restaurant = 6, and he'll owe you 9
Fancy fusion place = Better bring a friend!
Expensive sushi bar = Tentacle porn manga reenactment
Secret spot, private restaurant = You came in the back way, so...
Four-star restaurant = Depends on the service, your selections, and the vintage of the wine. There's a formula--don't be afraid to ask!
Home-cooked meal with wine & candles = Strenuous program of productive intercourse and baby carried to term

wee_ramekin

@atipofthehat Hey, Tip. It's illegal to fail to cite the Cosmo / Marie Claire article you pulled that from. Just sayin'.

E
E

@atipofthehat Pilsner Action? Do I want to know?

atipofthehat

@wee_ramekin

Hey, I spent time posting that and time is money and you read it, so....

atipofthehat

@E

Based on your comment history, I'd recommend the Lambic Surprise! (Kreik, perhaps...)

E
E

@atipofthehat Oh my lord. That was creepy. I just made a morello liquer! Did I say something about it here? Or are you in my head through the internet?! Either way, my large and threatening manfriend helped me bottle it. So stop watching my kitchen!

atipofthehat

@E

"Stop watching my kitchen! Stop watching my kitchen!"

I thought you were different, @E. But you're just like the rest of them.

E
E

@atipofthehat you can pay me 500 dollars to watch my kitchen and I if you like. I bet you'd like that. No messing with the ginjinha, it has 5.5-11.5 more months to marinate.

atipofthehat

@E

I'll pay 500 réis and provide a homecooked meal of Bacalhau com Cerveja with a flight of vinho verdes, lit by hand-dipped São João da Madeira candles. As for your ginjinha, I'm a patient man.

E
E

@atipofthehat Google much?

atipofthehat

@E

That was the port talking. And a story of mine that JUST came out, set in Brazil. But I do love filetti di baccalà, Roman style, so I would love to try the beery Iberian version someday.

honey-o

@atipofthehat i logged in just so i could "like" this.

atipofthehat

@honey-o

:: Tips hat ::

Layla

#4: Sometimes-sad-but-always-true fact: If you're basically strictly hooking up with someone, and then that person (male or female!) gets into a relationship, they're not going to hang out with one-on-one. It's not like you guys went to ball games and took cooking classes before you were doin' it, right? I mean, all the times you've ever been alone together led to hooking up, no? So now that there's going to be no hooking up, it stands to reason no one on one time. Also what everyone else said about how clearly angry you are. It sucks, and you're hurt, but the new girlfriend so clearly never did anything wrong (except apparently be skinny, which).

wee_ramekin

Rich Santos? Is that you?

sophduck

Not a great dude. Just...really not great.

Prostitute-lady: I don't know. I agree with other commenters saying it's better/different because he's a friend you've been in a sexual relationship with previously, but at the same time, I just think what kind of a man would be comfortable making that kind of offer, would I be happy having sex with such a man, for money or otherwise, and would I want to be bound to this kind of person, for him to have power over me, which he would, forever? It's not about whether you think prostitution is morally wrong or not, it's about the fact that society at large has condemned it and has very strong, complicated feelings towards women who engage in it, and if you do so with this guy, you can't ever undo it and you might not ever be able to get rid of him. Big risks for $500.

aura

#3 In my experience, the flirtiest, winkiest professors with the loosest boundaries are the ones with the most maladjusted self-esteem/personal life. Especially if you're talking about Humanities professors who maybe spend a little too much time in abstract theoretic realms & not enough time socializing with other adults. The ones who make sexual innuendos and shower you with compliments...it feels really great to have an intellectual connection with a professor. But true mentors and good, healthy adults know how to maintain boundaries with their female students: it is a crucial part of their *job.*

A good friend of mine had a horrible, traumatic experience with a professor who serially dates/fucks/emotionally manipulates his female students. It's at a school where there is a much smaller ratio of male undergrads, too, so many of us develop crushes on male professors because only about 30% of the school is guys (a typical liberal arts phenom).

The prof ended up confiding insane emotional problems/childhood traumas to my friend under the pretense of "talking about her work" then tried to "seduce" her (his word). He's a creep and he needs psychological help...but so many of these male profs *seem* attractive and confident because they have the bravado of a teacher/performer, and they spend their work week lecturing about Buddhism/philosophy to admiring beautiful 21-year-olds. They have inflated egos and seductive, jargony vocabularies but they don't know their shit on the interpersonal boundary front.

If a prof doesn't respect the teacher-student relationship as the sacrosanct mentorship it is, then they're not worth dating anyway, and they have serious problems of their own that, like someone above mentioned, will become blaringly clear (and unattractive) as soon as you're in a genuinely intimate context with them.

Enjoy the crush/attention/fantasy *from a distance.* You will meet other people you feel that way about, and it won't be an ethically fraught relationship that could leave you hurt and confused.

disclaimer: I think the situation can be a little different in graduate school context, or a relationship between a TA and an undergrad. But when it's an older male prof and an undergrad woman, and especially if he's already *attached*...please...don't bring that chaos on yourself or your department head who will be responsible for the sexual harassment investigation.

dracula's ghost

@aura very strong advice! totally true.
"They have inflated egos and seductive, jargony vocabularies but they don't know their shit on the interpersonal boundary front."

UGH what a great sentence, and so desperately accurate! I've known so many profs like this! Luckily none of them translate that j-boxery into fucking students (that I'm aware of), but it sure makes shit boring at parties.

Monkey

@aura "Humanities professors who maybe spend a little too much time in abstract theoretic realms & not enough time socializing with other adults."

HEY NOW. Wait, no, that's fair. *hangs head*

aura

@Monkey This prof can't have a conversation without mentioning Freud/the Holocaust/the tea party's fascist leanings. He's an extreme case, but in general I'm all for library time.

DrFeelGood

@aura Yes. I've seen this exact situation too many times. Gals, if he is 10+ years older than you AND your teacher/professor, like a million to one chances that this is not his first time doing this with a student and he is emotionally WAY fucked up.

DrFeelGood

@aura Also as an individual who has seen the student/prof situation play like a broken record, I can say that any Professor who goes near Undergrads has a fucking death wish. Most have the common sense (even if he is the scum of the earth) to stay away from kids who's parents will find out. Yea yea, they're not "kids" in that they're over 18, but they still have parents that more often than not find out about this crap and will make a huge stink to the Uni.

Not even getting into all the levels of fucked up of grad student/advisor relationships, The University may not care about the well being of their grad students (lets be honest, we're like serfs basically), but they sure as hell care about the undergrads and their parents who are paying the bills...

jennatar

Ewww, I just read the WHOLE COMMENT THREAD.

Aside: I actually know the Dude in the public domain photograph up top, I think, and he would give way better advice.

Chesty LaRue

@jennatar Please to give me his number? This dude is cute :)

Kneetoe

I think we need to turn this WHOLE thing around. How would I, as a guy, feel about a woman paying me $500 to sex her up because, of course, when I sexed her up other times for free, I was awesome? Well, on the one hand, telling my future wife about it wouldn't be a problem, but, on the other hand, telling my current wife about it might. Maybe if I split the money with her????

DrFeelGood

@Kneetoe heh. Such a cute kid.

Better to Eat You With

Teaching is a performance art. A student usually has no idea who a professor *really* is from interactions while the student/prof structure is in place. And even once the formal relationship has ended, that structure is always at least residually in place.

El Knid

No woman of good breeding or distinction should ever have sex for less than $1,000. 1K+, and you're a "high class escort" or "call girl." Anything less, and you're just a hooker.

atipofthehat

@El Knid

But I have a discount from Grope-on!

DrFeelGood

Wait, WHAT? So, essentially you're OK with condoning date rape because it falls into that old cliche of,

"I know it’s become sort of cliche to say this, but men pay for sex all the time. If he were dating a girl, he’d spend all kinds of money taking her out for dinner and drinks and buying her gifts and whatnot, and in this arrangement he gets to cut the bullshit"

So basically, if a guy PAYS for an evening out what is he entitled to, exactly? Call me naive, but I thought a date was about getting to know someone and seeing if you wanted to, see that person again/regularly, regardless of who pays.

Let's not even get into the whole "fair exchange of money for sex between consenting adults", because yes, the sex trade is completely fair to women and all of the women who get into it totally choose to get into it themselves, with no outside pressure/forced or coercion/lack of options/desperation. RIIGHT.

And the teacher/professor over 10 years older than his student is one of the following:
a. A man child who seeks to exploit his position of prestige/power, ie. this isn't the first time he's done this.
b. The teacher is being themselves and the student whom has limited interaction with them is just reading into the situation.

This dude SUCKS MAJOR BALLS. Seriously hairpin, don't you like audition the dudes? Sorry but this one has put a hair up my butt.

Lollisoda37

@DrFeelGood (great name btw!) You make a fair point about the paying for sex because it's a heavy subject. Though, the lady who wrote in sounded like she'd exhausted every thought possible on the matter, and I was totally looking for something wrong with it. I mean: she's already had sex with him. She mentioned that she's the one that tried new stuff, so there's no way he could pull something that she'd be uncomfortable with. She's moving away shortly, doesn't feel bad about it after all the consideration, and it's as consensual as I can analyze about the situation; and believe me, I was watching like a hawk, LOL! The only thing I can think of is a toss up in my head: Hopefully he's just in it for NSA sex, that's ideal. However, I'm more worried about if he's romantically interested in her, but not too worried. I don't think like a dude, but as a lady that has it bad for someone, I'd pay him to hold my hand if I could. :P I mean it's not complete satisfaction with a situation like that, but I'd take it over a lot of the shit I've seen. <3

Danny boy

@Lollisoda37 If LW upped the price and took the opportunity (again) to try new stuff and experiment in bed, then who is using who?

atipofthehat

@DrFeelGood

If blustering about having paid for dinner doesn't work, guys can always move on to whining about getting blue balls. A single, glistening tear can make all the difference!

DrFeelGood

@atipofthehat I find that the ol' "there's a gap in the space-time continuum and we are now functioning on another plane that is currently operating parallel to reality. In the 1st dimension, we have already had sex, therefore, if we don't have sex tonight, we will alter the very fabric of the universe, and life as we know it will cease to exist" also works pretty well.

anna sonata

Nice article, thanks for the information.

AdrenaC

Ew. Why would you give your pretend-love the name Don? Methinks that's a sign. I could never yell "Don! Oh yeah, Don!" in bed. This guy has to be a skeeve.

julia

No one will ever see this, it's way too late (and maybe someone already linked but it didn't come up in a page search), but Tits and Sass has responded to the recommendation to take the money and bang.

clipse

Hey guys, why can't we be cool with prostitution? Who says I can't sell my body for cash? The MAAAAN?? It's mine, I want to make some monaaay off it.

But seriously, why can't we do that? Can we make that ok now? Let's all fuck for money...! Sexual liberation doesn't extend that far? I want to discuss this in an academic environment. Or internet environment. Whatever.

www.bulksmsbase.com

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