Everybody Calm Down: Nobody Wants to Have Sex With Your Fiancé Anyway

@Kara Reynolds – Fair enough. I disagree, I think it fits well in terms of ladies being real, and demystifying things that maybe not all ladies will have experienced. Oddly enough, it reminded me of the abortion provider piece from a while back in that sense. I thought it was kind of cool and definitely made sense to me that strippers are just like anyone else doing their job – "ughhhh, customers are the worst" haha.

@Kara Reynolds really? I feel like it's very Hairpin – akin to the bikini waxer, unveiling the true lives of women who do work that lots of other people like to characterize to fit their own interests. If pushed I might say it over-dramatizes how stupid dudes can be, but we all (should) know it doesn't describe every dude out there, right?

@Kara Reynolds There's kind of a smug tone to the article that turns me off a bit. I'm not exactly endeared to this woman who thinks everyone partaking in and reacting to a stripper party are idiots.

@heather yeah, it is pretty smug. I mean, maybe it's meant to be dry/sarcastic? Because the writing seems really bright and funny, but my takeaway is still "women are idiots for being insecure, since their men are idiots for thinking they can get laid." The only non-idiot in this situation, as she tells it, seems to be her.

@Kara Reynolds I think it's very hairpin, to feel otherwise I would venture kind of demonstrates that sex work (which I'm not sure I even consider this to be, and tbh I would be very uncomfortable if this article were about prostitution) still retains a taboo of unacceptability amongst liberal circles which other issues, such as abortion, have shed. re. the commenters saying the writer has a smug tone, I do see what they mean, but I also think she is pretty self deprecating and really, what tone can a stripper adopt which WILL endear her to a culture which pigeon holes her either as a sexual robot or a damaged woman?

@bb I do know what you mean. It is in a way, very liberating, however, I have read a lot of articles written about and by sex workers and none of them have been as catty to other women at this. It makes all brides-to-be seem like quivering, mewling kittens who want their man at home. As a bride to be, I am not all that comfortable with the ‘approach’ of the article.

@Kara Reynolds probably goes to show that I am not a bride to be – I think it's helpful to remember this is a quasi-response to a thread a few days ago in which a lot of commenters responded with shock and horror to the idea that screwing a stripper was a common bachelor party activity. I don't think it is. It might help to see that point as more of a launching point for this writer to describe her job (I definitely get why you saw the title that way though).

@Kara Reynolds Exactly. I mean, the whole "calm down" thing misses the point entirely as far as I'm concerned – I don't give a shit whether or not the stripper wants to fuck my fiance/boyfriend/whatever. the problem is whether or not he would want to fuck HER, whether in real life or in my deepest darkest insecurest imagination.

Look, I reserve the right not to want another woman's bits in my boyfriend's face. Is there seriously something so wrong with that?

@Kara Reynolds Yeah, tell that to Ali Larter: http://www.imnotobsessed.com/2011/02/11/mario-lopez-opens-up-about-cheating-on-ali-landry/

It's not like it happens all the time, but let's be honest – it happens.

@Riff Randell I think the whole "calm down" attitude is in response to the earlier post about the article in Marie Claire where the theme was dudes banging strippers at their bachelor parties…. and how it was supposed to be a bride's worst nightmare. Just the other side of the coin.

@parallel-lines Oops, Landry!

@Kara Reynolds I disagree. I think it only makes mewling kittens out of those women who are paranoid and ultra-controlling about their fiances having bachelor parties. And not all brides-to-be are like that.

As a layperson with only a vague familiarity with the stripping/exotic dancing professions, it seems pretty obvious to me that only an idiot WOULD think he could make it with a stripper, at least the variety who performs at a kind of low rent bachelor party like the one described. I mean, is that such a difficult concept? Maybe worrying about whether or not a stripper "would" sleep with a willing client at a bachelor party isn't the issue, but I think the purpose of the article is to illuminate what actually goes on there, from the stripper's perspective, not to psycho-analyze the type of guy who is at a bachelor party performance along with his relationship.

Also you all should read "Bare" by Elisabeth Eaves (a favorite journalist of mine too!) if you are interested in this subject! It is an excellent in-depth personal account of her time in the profession, reflections on it at large etc.

@parallel-lines: Haha! "Ali Larter, can you believe Mario did that ish to Landry?" Now I want to gossip over lunch with Ali Larter.

@Too Much Internet I feel bad for their agents…

@parallel-lines Very few men are Mario Lopez who is not someone I'd necessarily go for but who lots of women probably would. It's kind of a stretch to use a famous person as an example.

@Riff Randell I don't think you and the writer differ too much in your feelings about guys & strippers. She seems to think they are lame for employing her, not just for wanting to sleep with her. Brides-to-be should feel anxious about the clichéd tackiness. Cool bachelor parties involve more male bonding shit. Love your avatar!

@Riff Randell There's nothing wrong with not wanting another woman's bits in your boyfriend's face. But the point of the article is that, when it comes to women who are paid to flash their bits, the act is pretty non-sexual.

Bleach-blond tramp at the bar who wants to give your boyfriend a hand-job in the parking lot = sexual

Stripper who is hoping to leave 10 minutes early so she can wash the sour whip cream film off her boobs = non-sexual

And I almost feel bad saying this, but it's quite likely that your boyfriend wants to have sex with strippers whether they've got their boobs in his face or not…

@Being They're I think most strippers look down on their customers but most customers look down on strippers.

@heather I agree with you about the tone…but….isn't "acting like idiots" the entire reason dudes have bachelor parties? To act like idiots around women who aren't their wives/gfs?

@Megoon Sounds like your, um, husband gave you more trouble than the strippers. But they're easier to blame!

@Megoon PS echoing someone above who felt this does not belong on The Hairpin. This isn't a wedding blog. This is my anti-wedding blog, please let me have it! Start posting op-eds from people who like Fox News if you need comment bait.

@Megoon Agh, this is such a complicated issue. There are lots of ways in which I agree with you- objectification is very dangerous, and insecurity and worry about fidelity are horrible and, neatly, partly stem from said objectification plus the whole the-main-female-power-is-seductive-power thing.

That said, I think that the issue is hellishly complicated, and I can't help but care about what strippers think. The sex industry's strange nature means we all have to hold positions that are somewhat contradictory- while it may have a negative impact, we also have to understand why women enter it, and that protecting them is very, very important.

Not that you said it isn't- this isn't really an argument with you, just thinking aloud, I guess?

@Megoon I want to preface this by saying I completely understand your objections to your partner oogling and touching other naked people, and feel strongly that if this is a request which is important to you, your mate did the right thing by respecting that.

But I do disagree that strippers are teaching men that women are sex toys. Any group of people should not be taken to 'speak for' every other group they belong to – strippers shouldn't be seen as a sign that all women are sex toys, just as a Abba shouldn't make us think that all Swedes belong dancing for our pleasure.

There's as many different reasons why, dispositions, stances on feminism, on gender issues, etc amongst strips as there are strippers. But regardless of any judgements (whether I disagree with them or not) of if they should or shouldn't be doing it and why, I think it's important that we hold any individual man responsible on his own as a man for thinking women are sex toys, and not blame any specific women for creating that impression.

@bloodorange The bachelor party is literally the only time I've worried about him with other women. Because in normal life he doesn't have friends paying some chick to wipe her tits on his face.

@Megoon woah woah woah WOAHHHHH! Last I heard, grown men are a bit beyond using strippers as an educational resource as to the role of women in society. Get a husband who shares your views on the objectification of women as sexual objects hmm maybe?

@Megoon yeah! IT IS *TOTALLY* STRIPPERS WHO TEACH MEN THAT!!

@Saaoirse I agree they should be protected – particularly in other countries where young women are forced/pressured into the sex trade – but I don't think that was the aim of this post.

@laseñorarobinson They don't exactly disprove it.

@sophduck Actually I *have* a husband who agrees that women aren't sex objects. But the culture surrounding bachelor parties SUCKS and his options were either a) hurt me or b) have his friends call him a pussy. He ended up going with the latter, and that was super unfortunate.

@laseñorarobinson They might not teach the attitude that women are sex toys, but they profit directly from it and hence perpetuate it.

@leon.saintjean Thanks for the thoughtful response; you raise a good point. But I think it's hard to argue that the stripping industry is good for society – particularly women.

@Megoon I guess the holier than thou tone of the article merits a little holier than thou response, but "Get a job that doesn't teach men that women are sex objects!" just comes off super privileged and nasty to me.

@Megoon Then his friends are acting like douchebags. I've been to bachelor parties ranging the gamut from stripper-fest/drunken Bus trip madness down to a bunch of guys drinking good bourbon playing cards together. Nobody really cared.

That being said, every single guy I know calls every other single guy they know a pussy every single time they don't give in to peer pressure, even imaginary ridiculous 100% non-real peer pressure. If somebody dared me to jump into the bear cage at the zoo and I said no, I'd get called a pussy. While, yes, there are some pretty fucking crappy implications in that (I mean, vaginas obviously aren't weak / cowardly, cuz HOLY FUCK BIRTH SEEMS PAINFUL) but it's also kind of just how a group of guy friends jokes. We mock each other. It's fine and fun.

If anybody actually thinks less of you for doing things you believe in, they're not you're friend, regardless of gender.

@leon.saintjean You're 100% right on the friends thing. They were indeed acting like douchebags.

@redheadedandcrazy That's fair. I guess having a stripper tell me to "calm down" because I don't want random boobs (let's even say HER boobs) involved in my relationship brought out the nasty. I don't care if she wants to fuck my boyfriend/husband or not. I care that she keeps her tongue off his face.

@Megoon That's fine, and I know exactly what you're talking about because I have a boyfriend who is, frankly, way too shy and awkward with women to stare a naked one in the boobs directly, yet there is no way he'd "emasculate" himself by opting out of stripper situations when all his pals are getting involved. The point is, I know that that is his failing, and the failing of a male culture which ridicules other males when they opt out of sexually objectifying women. It has got absolutely nothing to do with the stripper herself, who is fulfilling a role men are misguided enough to continuously demand.

@Megoon Yeah I do get it… I'm not a fan of the tone of this article either. I hope MY tone didn't come off nasty! I suck at the internet.

@Megoon It is unfortunate that your husband's friends behaved that way, yes.

@Megoon But the writer isn't saying "Ladies, calm down about my tits in your man's face 'cuz you shouldn't be upset about that." She's saying, "Ladies, don't worry so much about what's going to happen when your husband-to-be is with me because this is my job and I have zero desire to sleep with him." Do you see the difference?

You are entitled to be uncomfortable with a stripper's tits in your man's face. Share that information with him instead of blaming the stripper for being a stripper. The writer sounds bored with the inherent silliness of her job and exasperated for always being blamed for jealousy issues in a relationship she knows and cares nothing about.

@Megoon: So let's talk about this here room elephant.

You don't trust the man you are planning on spending the rest of your life with, is what I'm taking from this.

@Too Much Internet No, I think she just doesn't want his face in someone else's boobies. It's not a matter of trusting or not trusting, it's a matter of wanting or not wanting, and she not wants.

@Too Much Internet No, I didn't think my husband was going to fuck a stripper – I didn't want his friends paying woman to rub themselves all over him. I think it's a reasonable desire.

@LadyHazard I disagree, but to each their own. Strippers profit off of and perpetuate a shitty aspect of our culture. In my opinion. I think this writer – and whoever wrote the headline – took a condescending tone that I don't appreciate.

@I'm Not Rufus – Yup!

@I'm Not Rufus: A comment a ways down frames this in two ways, one of which I get: a girl did not want her boy with strippers because of her beliefs concerning the patriarchy and status of women entertainers. THAT I understand even if I don't subscribe to that belief.
The other way, though, is that she is worried that he is going to derive pleasure from a woman other than herself. Really worried. So, is he never going to go to a strip club again, in his life? Should he have an ankle bracelet tracker on, just in case? Is this reasonable?

Edit: I just read your reply Megoon. If this is more about 'I don't think stripping is good' then I see that point of view. My reading into what you wrote made me think you were genuinely concerned that he was going to stray, which makes for a house built on sand.

@LadyHazard I definitely agree with your comment here vis-à-vis what this writer is and isn't saying!

@Too Much Internet Wait, is it not legitimate to be "worried that he is going to derive pleasure from a woman other than herself"? Isn't that a general description of objections to cheating?

Talking about this as a trust issue implies that having some titties in his face is not cheating but that it might lead to cheating. But what if a lady thinks that titties in his face *is itself cheating*?

@I'm Not Rufus: "But what if a lady thinks that titties in his face *is itself cheating*?"

Then he cheated, and she needs to be with someone else. Can this be blamed on strip clubs/strippers, or him? Who cheated?

@Megoon "It has got absolutely nothing to do with the stripper herself, who is fulfilling a role men are misguided enough to continuously demand."

In Portland, tons of gay and bi women go to strip clubs. There are also places where women go to see men strip. Maybe you have objections to that, too, but there's more to it than just men behaving badly.

@I'm Not Rufus "No, I think she just doesn't want his face in someone else's boobies. It's not a matter of trusting or not trusting, it's a matter of wanting or not wanting, and she not wants."

I have to ask, why? Why does she not want a stripper's boobs in her husband's face? I'm not being sarcastic. I TOTALLY get it if it's some random girl who's rubbing her tits on his face for the purpose of causing arousal that will allow the two of them to have sex. But the guy is already looking at other women and wondering what it would be like to have sex with them. So it's not like saying no to a stripper at the party – who will be professional and not sleep with him – will prevent him from picturing himself with other women.

So if it's not a trust issue, and if it won't stop him from mentally undressing women at random, and we know that sex with the stripper won't happen, why is it a problem to have a stripper there? My best guess is that it simply reminds her of the fact that he looks at other women, and she doesn't like that. But that sounds like a trust issue to me.

@Megoon "Get a job that doesn't involve teaching men that women are sex toys." Oh em gee! Are we slut-shaming? It's so much fun! Let's all do it! Strippers, your life choices are horrible! You are ACTUALLY the ones responsible for patriarchy (somehow, I guess)! EVERYONE, help me out a little here, I don't actually have that much practice.

@Greg Allan Why does she not want a stripper's boobs in her husband's face? Well, why should she not want her husband to have sex with the stripper? Why might she not want her husband to receive a blowjob from the stripper? Why might she be bothered if her husband were making out with strangers?

@Too Much Internet The point is that she thinks it's cheating and her husband disagrees. It's not a matter of trust; it's a matter of making her fiance understand that what is being planned for his bachelor party is considered by her to be strictly out of bounds.

@I'm Not Rufus Well then would she also have a problem with him receiving a hug from a female friend? Or a handshake from a female co-worker? Or standing in close proximity to any female in a too-short skirt and too-tight shirt, like at a mall or on a crowded subway? Is the goal to keep him from ever making contact with other women, or to simply stop him from ever becoming aroused by other women? Because she's going to lose both of those battles.

The one she could win, however, is fidelity. That's the one where he watches a stripper shake her boobs at him at a bachelor party, but turns down the offer for sex or a blowjob or making out because, despite being attracted to other women, he only ever wants to be intimate with the woman he loves.

@Megoon wow….just wow!….you married a man you couldn't even trust to be around a naked woman with out being wholly inappropriate??…im going to have to say the issue is with YA'LL….and has nothing to do with the stripper!

@Greg Allan Having a strange woman's naked breasts in your fiance's mouth is very different from standing next to a fully clothed woman. The difference is strippers are considered sexual, as opposed to his scantily clad coworker, whom he's NOT paying to touch in a way that a fiance would find unacceptable. Paying someone to fondle their bits in MY opinion is cheating, but I hope that the hypothetical man I marry someday would never even consider it. This is my personal opinion and I realize other women feel differently. I don't begrudge strippers for their chosen profession. People have to make a living, and there's clearly a demand for it. The thing that makes me angry about the sex industry is that men feel they can degrade strippers and prostitutes, when *they're* the one paying for the service.

@Greg Allan Put it this way: Different people will have different definitions of cheating, obviously, but I don't think it's being unreasonable to define cheating to include anything associated with a numbered base. Hugging and looking don't count, but grabbing some titties is definitely second base where I come from.

@teenie I'm with you. I never worry that my boyfriend would do anything that would make me uncomfortable at a strip club or bachelor party because I know he would never do anything with another woman that would make me uncomfortable, period. I recognize men might feel pressured by their friends to act a certain way in these situations, but he's never been swayed by what other people think he should do. If we got married and his best man arranged for a stripper, I wouldn't be overjoyed but I wouldn't be upset.

@Lola cool. it's such a boring middle-of-the-road way to approach it, but it seems like this doesn't register high enough on my radar to get worked up about it.
we'll just sit over hear, listening to our dave matthew's band, wearing jeans and white t'shirts, and generally being a bit bland.

@teenie saving up our outrage for things that really don't matter, like who they're casting in the hunger games. seriously, I totally care about that.

@teenie I hear you. My dude and his friends are intelligent creatures and if they want to get some boobs in their faces for 50 mins, I trust them to let it be just that and nothing more. I mean it's not my favorite thing in the world to think about, but I'm not losing sleep over it. I just wish male strippers weren't so gross so I could have some fun of my own in retaliation.

@heather right? but i think the sort of thing I find sexy wouldn't be embodied by a dude doing pelvic thrusts in a thong in my face. like- maybe it's the stripping that's unsexy to me, rather than an orange tanned dude who's doing it? naw. it's the dude too.
all in all, I'd rather go out with my ladies, drink probably a little too much, dance like a freak*, and then not talk about it, leaving it in mystery. That's probably the best way to get any sort of retaliation. that is, if he were to have a stripper, which i'm not sure he would do.

*dancing like a freak = dancing like Elaine on Seinfeld, not pulling down my pants to show the top of my thong and gettin' low.

@heather heh. I was just thinking about why isn't this a *thing* for men and their wives/girlfriends/fiancees, then I remembered, oh right, male strippers are gross.

@heather THIS. Why are male strippers so gross? I've never, ever felt that any female stripper would want to sleep with me or any of the guys I've ever been with at a strip club. But the few male strippers I've seen? I've literally had to remove their hands from inching up my thighs! WHY??

Edith, can we have Ask A Male Stripper, please?

@DrFeelGood @teenie I've never met a woman who was turned on by male strippers. I like to think it's because we're more highly evolved creatures, but it's really just because male strippers are extremely greasy.

@DorothyMantooth OMG yes! I mean I don't want to brag or anything, but I've definitely had some male stripper hands on my ass.

And I would LOVE Ask A Male Stripper. I'm genuinely curious!

@DorothyMantooth I'm on it! And I understand people not being crazy about the "Everyone Relax" part of the title, but I think it has to do with the Marie Claire kerfluffle more than any "ladies don't understand" issues.

@heather @DorothyMantooth Heh. To quote Elaine Benes: "Well, the female body is a… work of art. The male body is
utilitarian, it's for gettin' around, like a jeep."
Jerry: "So you don't think it's attractive?"
Elaine: "It's hideous. The hair, the… the lumpiness. It's simian."
George: "Well, some women like it."
Elaine: "Hmm. Sickies."

@Edith Zimmerman YES!! You are totally the best!

@heather One slipped on his own oil fell on me, leaving a baby-oil man-shaped stain on my dress. You'd think he'd offer me a few singles for dry cleaning but OH NOOOOOO.

@parallel-lines Okay now I'm just imagining budget meetings at the male strip club. "Jack Hammer, you've only been using 85% of your monthly oil budget for the last three months. Care to explain?"

@heather You haven't really partied until you've had to return home with a dick shaped oil stain on your lap and two handprints on your sleeve.

Actually, ladies whose fiancees want strippers at their bachelor's parties: try this method and see how it works. He might just change his mind!

@heather: "you know what the rule with this is: use it or lose it"

@teenie there's a male stripper bar in montreal that I've been to a few times and it is a truly fascinating phenomenon. I guess a lot of them are for gay dudes, but this one is billed like FOR THE LADIEZ and the strip dances consist of elaborate scenes where women can pay to be involved.

E.g.: women lying in bath tub. Naked dude dances around, whips out a bottle of champagne, pours the champagne down his dick into the champagne glass, and hands to woman (I'm not making this up)

As well as a lot of "fantasy" scenes like lumberjacks, fire fighters, suave dude with a fedora…

I have to say the type of guy that works as a stripper is not my type really.. they seem to be all super tanned SUPER ripped, kinda short? and totally hairless. I would open a strip club that employs some guys with I dunno some beards, and some sexy chest hair, and maybe some tall, lean ones, or something.

@redheadedandcrazy
…i think we're onto something! how about a "normal dude" strip bar for ladies? you could have your bartender/stripper, your hipster-artist/stripper, your graduate student/stripper – all with much cooler clothes, skin tone, and body hair than your current stripper options – what do you think?!?! I'm in Philly, and I think it would take off around here. I even spoke to my guy friends and boyfriend last night, and they totally agreed that it's an awesome idea!*

*they actually didn't think it was a good idea at all. but i still do.

@heather I have a female-friend of a female-friend who really enjoys going to see male stippers and has reportedly paid a stripper $40 to give him a BJ in the back room.

@redheadedandcrazy So you're given a dick-flavoured glass of champagne? Not to sound too Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally, but I'd prefer to enjoy my champagne and dick separately.

@Jane Benjihana Kelly@facebook AMEN!

@Jane Benjihana Kelly@facebook That there might be a deeper reason beyond stupidity for insecurity is really ignored, which I think is a shame, because it's interesting as well as kind of vital.

@Saaoirse EXACTLY.

@Jane Benjihana Kelly@facebook ….. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. If the husband of the woman who has said no to oral sex continues to perform oral sex on her, that's sexual assault. End of story, I don't care if they're married. This nonsense about strippers and brides does not have the same issues of bodily consent and violation.

@Jane Benjihana Kelly@facebook Who is snorting at that?

@Jane Benjihana Kelly@facebook Can you explain what the oral sex question and a post from a stripper have to do with one another? Because I seriously have no idea why the one has to do with the other, or why that's a Seriously.

@cherrispryte Person A in a relationship wants to participate in something sexual, even if no penetration is involved, and person B says no but their partner goes through with it anyway. It is sexual assault period but only in certain circumstances? So someone needs to be touching me in order for it to be a violation? Please explain the line I should be expected to accept. Yeah it’s a sexual assault. Period. No means no. But saying, I don’t feel comfortable with this, that should also be a cue for someone’s fiancé to put on the breaks. @thebestjasmine so yes that’s a Seriously? The whole, calm down woman I know you don’t like it but blah blah, Its old. Not why I read the hairpin

@Lily Rowan "I can’t help but snort whenever I read something from a distressed bride-to-be, much less someone who's already married, fearing what will become of her relationship if her man attends the bachelor party against her wishes."

@ghosto Yeah, my initial thought was "Maybe the woman who wrote this article says nobody has sex with the stripper at a bachelor party because she is a stripper hired by best men who google 'bachelor party strippers'. Other men just call escort services and hire prostitutes."

Along those lines of thought though, it's also the case that no guy who wouldn't ordinarily have sex with a prostitute is going to be willing to do so in a room next to all of his friends. It's the same as the "when you're drunk" excuse – if you're the kind of guy who will pay for sex (or take sex someone else paid for) during your party, you're the kind of guy who will pay for sex period, end of story.

@leon.saintjean Exactly – it also makes me wonder about the type of groomsmen that would hire prostitutes (not strippers) for an event like this, and then dare stand near the bride when she pledges her life to this man. It sounds like a major issue of disrespect to the bride by both the groom and his friends. And I can't imagine it would only happen on that one night.

@leon.saintjean Not so sure about the when you're drunk thing – there is a ton of shit people do when they're drunk that they wouldn't ordinarily do otherwise. You're still the person who did that shit, but a lot of people stay away from drugs and alcohol precisely because they don't like the people they become on those things.

@Lucy What's super gross is that sometimes the bride's friends and family members are involved. AND IN THE CASE OF ONE PERSON – the bride's father was a PREACHER.

@winchesterwolcott Beyond gross, I would go as so far as to say that it's unforgivable. If it's something that makes you uncomfortable and people that are supposedly close to you purposefully do it anyway, and then try it hide it, etc. – It's a serious issue that goes way beyond strippers.

@winchesterwolcott I didn't mean so much that people don't do stuff when they're drunk they wouldn't do when sober, I just mean that anything people do when drunk they already have in them when they're sober. It's against my moral whatever to cheat on ladies, so I have never gotten and drunk and cheated. I'm not morally opposed to singing "A Whole New World" at Karaoke with a dude friend in a loving and tender way, just don't have the cojones to do it sober, so it only happens when I'm drunk.

@leon.saintjean: Video of drunk Aladdin karaoke or it didn't happen…

@leon.saintjean I sang "Part of Your World" with a fellow Hairpinner the last time I did karaoke! In a loving and tender way! Even though that song isn't really about, you know, being in love. It was still awesome.

@leon.saintjean But what about peeing in the subway? They're not really a Person Who Pees in Subways, right?

@theharpoon I wonder if your romantic story loses any coolness points if everyone finds out that the other Hairpinner's father and brother were present.

@winchesterwolcott That doesnt mean anything unless the preacher was there.

@jneslo On a side note, I did like how this article demystifies the idea of strippers.

@elysian fields I don't know origins, but what I know as a dude about strippers in general, both at bachelor parties and random "guys nights out" is that it's not really about the strippers. It's about guys bonding by doing something they only can do as "the guys". It's a signifier of male bonding.

Of course, there are legitimate issues / concerns to raise over this, but I'm not going to try to pre-empt / address them unless somebody asks explicitly, as a sure as hell don't speak for all men or even have full answers on things I myself do.

@elysian fields – we should return to the days when a stripper was a large lady who popped out of a cake in pasties, juggled some bowling pins and then pulled a quarter out from behind the groom's ear. and goodnight.

@elysian fields Good question. I don't know how it started. I can't be shaken from the feeling that it's a curious way to celebrate a serious union between two people. I've heard the argument "It's his last night as a free man." That's not a good attitude to enter a marriage with – if it feels like such a prison, why bother? Just hang out with strippers every night and don't get married.

@Lucy It's much more of a death sentence than a prison, amirite?

@leon.saintjean that's legit although it seems totally bizarre to me … don't really see what "naked ladies" and "male bonding" have to do with each other. There are a multitude of ways for dudes to bond that don't involve naked ladies and also don't make the dudes' lady-friends uncomfortable.
I like to think that men and women are more similar (as human beings) than different (as separate genders) but occasionally topics like this make me think that we really are from different planets … hahaha.

@leon.saintjean Haha – depends on the day

@elysian fields Well it's kind of BECAUSE it transgresses lines 'girlfriends / wives' would like us to follow, but without being so transgressive as to actually fuck up the relationship. Doing something dangerous creates that "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" feeling, and for guys who honestly care about their girlfriends, pissing them off by getting an illicit look at strange nipples is pretty dangerous – we do honestly care about our relationship.

Also, note that on the "Boys Night Out" of the strip-club variety, which happens pretty infrequently, we don't even invite the guys who's GFs would actually kill them, those are nights we just get drunk. Which is actually what we go do after we're around strippers for about an hour and then start to feel gross.

Only psychopaths and really sad, lonely dudes frequent strip clubs and don't feel sketched out.

@elysian fields Well, Grandpa Huxtable on the Cosby Show had a fan dancer for his bachelor party. Grandma Huxtable was pissssssed! But she put on a good show and left the room to make coffee whenever he talked about it.

It's not weird that I know that…

@elysian fields I don't actually know the history, but I think you're probably right that it stems from the idea (true or not) that the groom-to-be hasn't seen any naked ladies before &/or won't have the chance to ever again.

I also feel like it stems from the idea that, by getting married, a guy is surrendering his independence–"aw man, we gotta go to a strip club; you know your wife won't let you go!" &–fidelity/feminism/whatever issues aside–that element of the stripper/bachelor party phenomenon is what feels extra icky to me. I mean, by all means, have a crazy night of drunken revelry that goes beyond the pale of a usual fun night out. but if you feel like this is your "last chance" to do ANYthing (beyond the silly "find a guy wearing a hat & kiss him on the cheek" type bachelorette dares) then maybe you should consider what you're giving up by entering into a lifetime partnership.

honestly, I feel like bachelor(ette) party drama is just a synecdoche for regular relationship drama. if you have qualms about your partner's friends, drinking habits, judgment, fidelity, honesty, etc., or whatever, then obviously that's going to come out when you're already stressed out about wedding planning & there's this Big Event designed to maximize the negative impact of that uncertainty.

@nonvolleyball Synecdoche! But also, yes. That. If you're marrying a person who explicitly does things you are uncomfortable with, maybe think about that a little more. If you're marrying someone whose friends are total juiceboxes, that may be something to consider about your partner. Etc.

@OsGirl Give a little shoulder; take it back!

@rayray – i don't know. i'm pretty calm. almost sleepy.

@rayray I'm actually asleep right now. I'm sleep-typing.

@rayray ;lzajffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

@kayjay My friend went to a bachelor party awhile ago where after the strippers did their routines, they took men who wanted a little extra into bedrooms. I wonder what they did in there. More dancing? Why would the strippers suddenly be shy about dancing? I feel sorry for the women these men are with. However, I doubt they only cheat during bachelor parties.

@Lucy Yeah. I think that would be a safe assumption.

@Lucy Generally private rooms are just more dancing. The sad fact is most guys are spending the extra money not for sexual gratification, but for attention from a woman (which they're probably not getting enough of because they have so little self-esteem they feel the need to pay for it, vicious cycle).

Occasionally handies.

@leon.saintjean AHA! Occasionally handies! I knew it!!

@fancypants Yep.

EDIT: It's also really easy to stand in the background and just kind of mutter to yourself and fuck w/ your phone for a little while. The stripper part doesn't last long, and there's not really much of a chance of being forced to touch a stripper.

@leon.saintjean And your friends no doubt jeer and cheer until you let her tits slap you in the face, no?

@fancypants The friends who are that kind of ass are usually more concerned with getting their own faces some nipple-contact than they are with rationing out nipple-time to people who don't want it.

@fancypants – actually no. you are no obligation to attend anything. my brother-in-law is a mouthbreather who is constantly challenging my views on things with hypotheticals like 'so, if you knew you'd never get caught would you sleep with (insert bimbo-name)' then, when i reply no, i get the 'you're a liar- you know you would'. i'm amazed his brain is strong enough to power his heart and his lungs simultaneously. anyhoo, he had a bachelor party, and i was socially obligated to attend. he mentioned strippers and i did not attend. and when he gives me crap about it, i tell him to fuck off, because, really, there isn't much else to say.

@fancypants @leon.saintjean plus, intent has a big role in all this, right? I don't care if my partner is in the same room as a naked lady, I care about whether or not he's ogling that naked lady all, "man, she is WAY hotter than nonvolleyball; I wonder if she'll bone me." it's like going to a place that serves booze during a work lunch (for example)–most people can handle that temptation, & if you can't, you need to evaluate the consequences & determine whether or not you should be in that situation in the first place.

@fancypants: You attend, drink, laugh at the absurdity of it all, have a good time with your friends, and having read this article, understand that this is all a facade and the strippers are not sirens trying to lure you to your death at sea. A stripper may drop her boob in your hand unexpectedly. It's okay. Laugh and take another swig. In general, they'll obey the 'naw, not me' hand waving motion.

@nonvolleyball: THIS drives me up a wall. Help me understand. Intent? Do you really expect he will not have these thoughts anywhere else, if he's even having them at all? Is it reasonable to control where he goes to head off these thoughts before they occur? If you could even do this, will this have been a 'successful' relationship?

@Too Much Internet I like your take on it. There's just something about the stereotypical bachelor party that makes my skin crawl. I imagine my boyfriend would attend in a similar spirit to you (albeit probably feeling and acting more awkward)… I just kind of hate that it has to happen at all.

Going to stop now because I'm overthinking this way too much…

@Too Much Internet yeah, really I was just restating what I (& a bunch of other folks) already said: that cheating in a bachelor party/strip club situation isn't going to happen unless the intent is already there, lurking.

I threw in the drinking/temptation example because there are folks out there who are aware of their own weaknesses. if someone in AA doesn't want to be in a venue that serves alcohol, if a guy who has sexual addiction/fidelity issues doesn't want to go to a strip club–that totally makes sense. but for someone with an unproblematic relationship to vice, there shouldn't be any issue with being in an environment where "bad behavior" is an option.

@Too Much Internet, the thoughts and opinions of people you relate with matter whether it's an asshole friend who secretly hates you or a boyfriend who would rather be fucking literally anybody else on the planet. Hahaha, what the fuck is this complaint even? Interpersonal interactions are like legislation to you then, yeah? "How dare you dump your boyfriend for being a klan member. Are you the fucking thought police? You aren't allowed to have an opinion about that shit until he actually lynches someone"

edit: ughhhh I don't want to get into an actual discussion over this so tl;dr: it's stupid to criticize someone for caring about the thoughts of their s/o

@fancypants: What makes this a hot point issue with me is I have known guys (and currently roommate with one) that have gf's that DEMAND that they not go certain places or get all sorts of enraged at the thought of other women in proximity. This gets under my skin because it's one of those things where the emphasis is on the wrong element; if you have an unfaithful partner, the issue isn't with everyone else in the world, it's the partner! Trust is so very important to me that when I see it being betrayed by either side in a relationship I bristle, because that's not right and it's just going to perpetuate a cycle of feeling bad until the wheels come off.

Second note – I have never been aroused at a strip club. At best it's a rowdy good time and everyone has a good attitude, at worst it's one of the saddest places in the world. I approach it entirely like going to a play or viewing art. That woman has a great body. I love that woman's hair. It's really about the aesthetics and nothing else. Woe to a guy that thinks action happens at the strip joint (it can, but at that point a guy is paying enough money to know what he's getting himself into.)

Third note – Riff Randal above put it really well – "I'm not going to stop you from going, but I reserve the right to think that it is gross. And that, by extension, you are also pretty gross." THIS I get. I think it's subjective and sometimes it's really gross and sometimes not at all, but if a girl has this reservation that is something I totally get.

@theinvisiblecunt: h8 u so much for that reference to the wrong fucking branch of government

@theinvisiblecunt: NO you have a point. I tried to clarify by citing two different examples but this is tough to put into text…

I am a little strange. I am very liberal socially but believe very strongly in personal responsibility. You are responsible for yourself. You can't 'enforce' someone else's respect and responsibility! They're either in control of their own person or not.

I'd love to destroy all the McDonalds in the world because they make and serve shitty food that is bad for people. But ultimately the problem isn't McDonalds, it's the people. Thinking you can control someone or something by limiting their options is a false pretense.

@Too Much Internet Omg! Have you guys ever thought of just not going to strip clubs! Everyone is like, they can be the saddest place on earth…wahhhh. I never knew things were so difficult for you.

@Too Much Internet, I don't even care about the stripper dramabomb nonsense but I hate it when certain people (aspie libertarians, wikipedia editors, half of every comp-sci dept. in the country, &c) bring every argument ever back around to political philosophy and thus I think responding to "I care about what my partner is thinking when he ogles a stripper" with "NO, having emotions is actually p much on par with violating the first amendment" is bullshit

@fancypants I am married to one of these guys, and from what he tells me, yes. The one bachelor party he's been to like this since we got together, he spent the entire hour they were at the strip club texting me…which is sad yet cute, I guess. He and most of friends are cool with the once-every-5-years trip to the strip club where they drink and laugh at whoever looks the most embarrassed, but they all think (or say they think) frequent visits/private rooms are for creepers.

@winchesterwolcott: I am personally not a fan. The three times I have went have been with groups, usually as part of a night out where we did other things before and after.

@fancypants If that happens, all you have to do is get the stripper in question to write a blog post enjoining women to calm down. In the ensuing shitstorm, no one will remember what you did.

@brad ruv roo

@atipofthehat Mine would be sushi. No wait mcdonalds. No wait pizzaville. NO WAIT SUSHI. It has to be sushi. But then I'm missing out on so much pizzaville? AND MCDONALDS?! And then there's thai food. And bagels. And BREAKFAST FOOD. I have to change my answer to breakfast food.

… Is this why people have trouble with monogamy?

…I need a moment to have some private time with my dynamite rolls.

@atipofthehat AAAAAAAAAAAAAH I laugh-spitted on my computer!!!!

@Smartypants I want to support you in a to-each-their-own / find-your bliss fashion, but I also hope you understand that your Dad's behavior will be hard to find in another man and really difficult to force on someone. It can definitely be healthy for a relationship to acknowledge outside attraction. It doesn't mean disrespect or actual infidelity and denying it doesn't make the attraction go away. Just too many ads in the world to cover your/his eyes from them all.

@Being They're I know you're right, but I am not interested in a relationship with someone I have to force this upon. I'm lucky I have a boyfriend for whom this seems to be innate. And I agree, there are too many ads to expect him never to see a naked or almost naked woman, but there's a difference between seeing something and dwelling on something. We watch movies with nudity in them, and I don't have anything against that, but if he's watching them by himself and pausing on the boobie parts, that's different.

I agree entirely with your point, and the fact that my boyfriend is someone who respects my opinions (and insecurities) so much is one of the many reasons I love him.

@Smartypants Now I'm curious: If I told you that my husband looks at boobies on the Internet and that I'm okay with that and that he respects me, would you think I was lying?

@Xora No, absolutely not. Obviously not all relationships are the same. One of my best friends regularly goes to strip clubs, and I have no doubt he loves his wife. I'm just saying what I expect from my partner. What I want from my relationship has nothing to do with anyone else's.

@allthecuteshit : Not to mention the ideologically-divided "paying the strippers to have sex with each other isn't technically cheating!" debate.

@allthecuteshit YES. All of this. It's fine that this particular, Google-able stripper (that you one uses Google to find you tells me that you are, in fact, likely legit) is not having sex with anyone's fiance, but there are definitely "strippers" out there who do it. I find it hard to believe that someone who strips is not aware of this.

I mean, I'm not worried about my fiance. Mostly because he has a lot in common with the mythical unicorn, in that no one has seen him…ever. But, still, this article is somewhat misleading.