Odd Future, Hip-Hop, Misogyny, and the Internet
There's a fight happening on Tumblr right now (man, this sentence is not starting off very well!) that revolves around the misogynistic "character" of Tyler, the frontman of the recently very-internet-popular California rap group Odd Future. One argument is that as an artist his intent is to provoke and push the boundaries of what we're comfortable with, and because of that we shouldn't try to quiet his self-expression. The counterpoint is that he's crude and offensive. There's also a third, much smaller argument that's happening adjacent to the first two arguments that pits Charlie Sheen (sure, why not) against Tyler in a "who's worse" contest. Here's the thing, everyone's not not wrong!
The main justifications that Tyler defenders, and — based on a peripheral scan of the hip-hop thinkers on my Twitter feed — really the hip-hop community as a whole make for Tyler's behavior is that he's playing a character, and that hyperbolic, larger-than-life characters are a proud tradition within the genre. True, many of the most successful, iconic rappers never lived the lives they rapped and wrote about: Tupac was a theater nerd, Biggie was never really a big-time drug dealer, and most recently Rick Ross (the Boss) was outed as a former correctional officer — not the Scarface-style kingpin he portrays himself as. In fact, Dr. Dre isn't a real doctor, my understanding is that he never even began residency after finishing medical school.
It's also been pointed out that people who've met and worked with Tyler say he's a genuinely nice kid! And that not all of what Odd Future puts out there is about rape and hating women, and that it just so happens these are the songs and parts of his persona that have been the most popular, and/or retweeted.
And these people, the ones who defend Tyler, aren't wrong that what Tyler's doing isn't something that's never been done before in hip-hop. I'd take this argument one step further and say that all of this is/was done even more offensively (if you're offended, that is) and on a larger platform by the most popular and commercially successful rapper of the last decade — Eminem. And, really, Eminem's catalogue is far more vulgar and filled with hatred toward women than what Odd Future's put out in their short career.
But where the Tyler defenders' argument falls a little bit flat is the fact that just because it's been done in the past doesn't make it OK. If someone punched you in the face last week, it wouldn't be OK for them to punch you in the face again today, right? (If your answer to that is "punch away," then disregard this next bit.)
There's probably even a little bit of hypocrisy to their argument, because if Tyler were a Southern-looking white dude, let's say really stereotypically fratty — I'm thinking, like, Patagonia fleece, some Tevas, probably some sort of Carhart pant — who's "stage persona" was of a really racist white guy whose popularity stemmed from tweets like, "I Hate Black People [or, realistically, a more offensive word] And I Want To Kill Them All" (side note: one of the more annoying things that Tyler does, something that annoys me on a personal level, is his capitalization of the first letter of all the words in his tweets, WHY IS HE DOING THIS? [Answer: He's an artist. Oh, my bad]) then they would probably think the white guy was terrible. Even if it was just a "character" he was playing, my guess is that — and I acknowledge that this is an assumption about an already hypothetical situation — they would respond not unlike the women and men upset by Tyler's words and persona.
While it's true exaggerated characters can provide entertainment, it seems like if you're going to give a pass to this sort of thing, you have to make sure you're completely objective and open about all of the media you consume, not just the things that happen to not offend you. Conversely, if you're going to criticize Tyler, make sure you're holding your other entertainment figures to the same standard. (And if you're going to criticize Tyler, make sure there's never been an occasion when you've been cool with Eminem and his music, because, well, as I said above, Eminem's probably been more detrimental to women — if not directly, then at least by way of influence — than some random some kid who's sort of popular on the internet.)
Or: It's tricky to have vehement arguments about a subjective topic!
As far as how Charlie Sheen fits into all of this, and who's "worse," it seems silly that we can't allow both of them to be detrimental to our societies in their own special ways. On one hand, praising Charlie Sheen for his whole "whatever" attitude, as is currently popular, seems icky considering his history of domestic abuse — and this argument was made more articulately by the much smarter Anna Holmes today in a Times piece that does not involve the word icky. And on the other hand Tyler's misogynystic and at times rapey persona is probably influencing younger, dumber kids who may not know that it's all an act (and, for what it's worth, I'm not completely dumb or particularly young, and until I did some serious digging, I had no idea it was an act). And regardless of whether or not you like Odd Future, you can probably agree that that's not completely awesome.
David Cho is the publisher of The Hairpin.
I appreciated this.
Tyler is flirting with a line I like to call post-ironic misogyny. Typically, this phenomenon can be witnessed in a lot of liberal, "open-minded" young men who make women jokes constantly, or refer to women as "some bitch" or "that bitch who…" a lot.
The guys who do this would never consider themselves actually sexist, because, lyke, IT'S A JOKE!! FUNNY! They are mocking the stereotype, see!! But often, how much, can you do this before you're actually just being an asshole who degrades women constantly?
Because sexism and hatred of women isn't rare, or even uncommon. It's everywhere, promoted everywhere in our culture (see: the recent writings of Molly Lambert for more information). And that makes you, Ironic Sexist, not NEARLY as funny or clever as you think you are.
Tyler, I think, crossed the line from irony to actualy misogyny a long time ago.
amen sister Internet Girl.
agreed. I'm not saying that people who make sexist jokes are always sexists, or that people who make racist jokes are always racists, but they certainly give me reasonable cause for concern.
mostly, though, they just aren't funny. enough!
Your cum level though, where's it at?
Agree with Internet Girl, an ironic sexist is just not funny or clever to me, in any capacity but especially lately with the shit going on in our country and in Congress. Which is what I said when I threw myself into the Tumblr fight.
After I posted about it I got an IM from my guy friend who likes them asking me if I wasn't going to be his friend anymore because of his fandom, and no of course not, but don't try to justify the persona to me. The friend had admitted to me when we first had a conversation about Odd Future, while drunk and so not necessarily intelligent, that the lyrics did make him uncomfortable. Which is all I'm asking of my several dude friends who are into them right now, acknowledge it's fucked up and don't even attempt to try to justify it to me.
Same goes for Charlie Sheen.
I'm an "old" thus don't really "get" Odd Future and their shtick. It actually reminds me of the old horror-core rap days. That disappeared rather quickly and so will this. Nice n' Smooth will live on however. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LXgdLEGf_Fk
Syd the Kyd from Odd Future is probably one of the very few people in a rap group that I can think of that is unabashedly gay. I appreciate that.
I like Tyler's music a lot. I do find a lot of the content makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I don't see how it's any worse then similar stuff that, say, Biggie was saying back when he was around, and he's pretty much adored by everyone.
…you could probably replace 'Biggie' with 'The Pixies' too.
So your justification is "there's worse out there" and "he's not the only one"?
I'm not trying to be the Taste Police. I like some things that are not riding the political correctness train. But, like SarahChristine said above, own it. It IS fucked up. Don't try to justify away that fact.
Tyler The Creator is extreme, and anything extreme is interesting to pop culture. That doesn't make the ways he's distinguishing himself any less gross.
No, I’m just saying that there are people out there who love the Pixies and Biggie but seem to have an issue with OF. I think that’s pretty silly. Basically the same thing that D.Cho is saying about Eminem above. I love all 3 of them. Isn’t that owning it?
It reminds me a little of the stuff that Throbbing Gristle and Whitehouse were doing back in the day. Except I actually find it enjoyable to listen to. Free Earl.
Uh, "pretty silly" isn't the phrase I would use for the concerns in this article.
I just wish the debate wasn't Interesting, Exciting New Artists (who are total misogynists) vs. Boring Politically Correct Artists.
Why does this have to be the choice? Is asking for interesting new artists who acknowledge that women are people too much to ask?
Apparently, yes, it is.
newtohairpin, is your name a tribute to NewToJezebel? Because um, if it is, then I heart you serious. SERIOUS!
Syd is a female and the only reference I've heard to her sexuality was her "getting intimate with guys." Granted, I don't know the whole catalogue of the group's work. I would find their whole deal easier to get behind if one of the members was asserting their gayness at least as frequently as they used anti-gay slurs, though.
My biggest thing at first was hating that every other word they said was 'fggt', but honestly, so much thought obviously gets put into the beats and the overall 'sonic landscape' of the music that it's impossible for me to dismiss this because they are saying a word that kids their age say all the time and are constantly trying to convince me they 'don't mean in that way' (I am gay, btw).
So, yeah, I think being offended by this is totally natural. More than horror-core, they remind me of Marilyn Manson or something, and it is clearly not for everybody, but I think Odd Future make other rappers look really dumb in comparison (rappers who ostensibly 'mean what they say'), and it's probably the most gripping modern rap we will get for a while. Eat up, I say.
Disagree about Tyler being a post-ironic misogynist. I don't think he'd ever say he's mocking a stereotype. In some songs he's genuinely occupying a place of immature, adolescent rage. Take "Sarah" off of Bastard, for example: it's a story about him having a crush on this girl, getting shut down by her, and going off the deep end. He talks about locking her in his basement, raping her, etc., eventually killing her and himself. There are some joke-y lyrics, like "I don't ask for much / your heart literally is what I do want for lunch," but I think he's coming from a real place. Not of having done any of this or of advocating it, but of being a 19 year old boy who's heartbroken and angry and wants to hurt something. He's giving voice to the worst urges of his adolescent aggression.
Ultimately though, Tyler couldn't give less of a fuck about what any of us think.
That's exactly what he wants you to think.
ODWGKTA won't disappear quickly, too many talented artists in the Wolf Gang for that to happen.
FREE EARL
I only have one problem with your argument: white, Southern frat dudes would not wear Tevas or Carharts, and are more likely to wear North Face than Patagonia in terms of fleeces. If, however, you are talking about a frat guy who looks "Southern" but may be located elsewhere (for instance The North, or Colorado), ignore this comment and carry on.
Feeling so many feelings!
Mostly love for OFWGKTA because they just jabbed an adrenaline-filled syringe into the heart of the music, skate, art, and media worlds, and they did it because they were doing the things that interested and entertained them with their friends, not to gain fame or notoriety. And I think they are hilarious and talented as fuck and paying attention to them will do a million times more good for the general populace than bad. And their whole steeze is not giving a fuck what you think. Which excites me way more than like, GLEE does. Deconstructing the misogynistic undertones I think misses the point. Or maybe it just bores me because it's so fucking obvious.
I guess I feel like if we're gonna talk about Odd Future, there are so many more interesting things to say.
But that's just like, my opinion, man.
"Deconstructing the misogynistic undertones I think misses the point"
This is so patronizing. If I have to read one more comment about how a feminist critique "misses the point" because it is discussing women like they are important, rather than OTHER STUFF that is ACTUALLY IMPORTANT (ie, NOT WOMEN YOU GUYS) I MIGHT JUST LEAVE MY ALLCAPS ON PERMANENTLY.
If you want to read more important, interesting things that aren't about vaginas, might I suggest one of the 10 billion sites that aren't this site on the internet?
He's mansplaining! Pay attention!
So our options are OFWGKTA or Glee?
Awesome argument. No, wait, the opposite of that.
If I have to read one more comment about how a feminist critique "misses the point" because it is discussing women like they are important, rather than OTHER STUFF that is ACTUALLY IMPORTANT (ie, NOT WOMEN YOU GUYS) I MIGHT JUST LEAVE MY ALLCAPS ON PERMANENTLY.
>> SERIOUSLY ON THE SAME PAGE, INTERNET GIRL. SERIOUSLY.
Don't kick people and don't punch people, try to be a little more kind. I agree with everything Internet Girl said. Did you ever watch Bad Girls Club on Oxygen Network? It boggles the mind- you laugh and then you ask yourself, what the fuck am I laughing at?
So, they clearly started out through internet buzz, but at this point big, successful artists like Questlove and Mos Def are also behind them, let alone national TV networks. They were on Jimmy Fallon and a week later MTV followed them around and broadcast a profile. They're young and energetic and that is obviously appealing to people, so the polar opposite of the "underground music culture" will support them in order to make money. I have a problem with the fact that these big players are now involved and they hardly bat at an eye at the misogyny.
To be fair though, don't we all sometimes feel that way about Ke$ha?
These dudes are like 19. I'm not saying that makes this okay, I'm just saying keep that in mind when you're writing, like, deconstructionist critiques of their lyrics or whatever. Young men are angry walking hard-ons full of testosterone and rage. Especially ones as young as they are. They say shit like this because they don't care about the consequences of it.
Secondly, to quote one critic, "a good portion of their lyrics describe what are more or less abominable acts of murder, kidnapping, blasphemy, and rape." So, don't we have more to be concerned about than just misogyny? Why is rapping about killing other black people not as much of a cause for concern as tweeting about punching Kesha in the mouth? In other words, there is a ton of bad stuff in rap lyrics. By this point, anyone who listens to it has made some sort of peace with that. The interesting thing to me is, why and how that peace is made. Focusing just on misogyny seems too narrow.
I like the cut of your jib, Internet Girl. Let's be faceless internet friends.
Listen, my significant other and I will make poor-taste jokes to each other and ONLY to each other because it's a situation where we KNOW OUR AUDIENCE and we enjoy a private game of "Who Can Be the Most Tasteless and Disgusting and Gross the Other Person Out First?" every now and again. Guess what? If I were to make those same jokes to other people in my life, they would have every right to assume that I'm a massive jackass based on the things I've said.
Long story short, Mr. Tyler, if you don't want people to make assumptions about who you are based on the messed up crap you just said, DON'T SAY IT. If you say misogynist things always, newflash! People will assume you're a always a misogynist. What else would you expect? You can protest all you want, but at some point, you doth protest too much.
it's a very simple formula — the more offended people get, and the more people they offend, the funnier the joke.
Being concerned about misogyny is so gay.